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Tatsumi67
January 17, 2009, 10:51 PM
Im assuming, as its common sense, that if you are in a room when "something goes down", and there is a LEO in that room, you are to NOT draw as it defaults to the LEO to draw and interdict?

I don't have my CCW yet (to young) but is that how it works?

btolliverjr
January 17, 2009, 10:56 PM
wouldn't be a good idea. if you draw your weapon in a situation with a LEO in the room, guess who just became another target for the LEO :eek: He doesn't know that you are on his side.

Tatsumi67
January 17, 2009, 11:17 PM
wouldn't be a good idea. if you draw your weapon in a situation with a LEO in the room, guess who just became another target for the LEO He doesn't know that you are on his side.

Maybe I wasnt clear enough: what I mean is, are you to NOT DRAW when a LEO is in the room, becuase he/she will be the one who should draw?

Teuthis
January 17, 2009, 11:25 PM
If something "goes down" in a room, there is no necessity for you to do anything anyway. Perhaps the best thing you can do is quietly and acutely observe. Our CCW permits are for self defense, not saving the world. The best thing you could do is nothing, but if you are threatened, get to a defensive position where, if necessary, you could protect yourself and others. The worst thing might be to engage someone in a firefight in order to stop a crime where bystanders might be hurt or killed for no good reason.

Ask yourself.. are you a gunfighter with training and experience in combat and up close firefights? Are you ready to die in a close confrontation if it is not absolutely necessary?

Do you want to end up in endless trouble for accidently shooting bystanders by starting a firefight when it might not have happened otherwise? I would use great caution and reserve before taking action in some situation. Life and death.

Tatsumi67
January 17, 2009, 11:27 PM
wouldn't be a good idea. if you draw your weapon in a situation with a LEO in the room, guess who just became another target for the LEO He doesn't know that you are on his side.

Thats the answer I expected and wanted to hear, thanks.

Tatsumi67
January 17, 2009, 11:28 PM
End Thread

btolliverjr
January 17, 2009, 11:37 PM
If something "goes down" in a room, there is no necessity for you to do anything anyway. Perhaps the best thing you can do is quietly and acutely observe. Our CCW permits are for self defense, not saving the world.

Actually your permit is to protect both yourself AND others. If you are in McDonalds and someone comes in and opens fire on someone else, are you just going to sit there with your gun on your side and do nothing while he kills innocent people? or are you going to neutralize the threat and keep him from killing innocent people? Would you wait to open fire until he attacked specifically you?

Maybe I wasnt clear enough: what I mean is, are you to NOT DRAW when a LEO is in the room, becuase he/she will be the one who should draw?

Again, if you find out a LEO is in the room, you should not draw your weapon! If you have already drawn it and then find out of the LEO, you should immediately put down and step away from your weapon and make it clear that you are not there to do harm. again, he doesn't know whose side you are on.

Mal H
January 17, 2009, 11:38 PM
I've got to admit I'm confused by your last few posts, Tatsumi67. First you say the quoted text showed that you hadn't been clear in your question, then the same quote is what you were looking for. ???

btolliverjr
January 17, 2009, 11:46 PM
+1! I'm glad I wasn't the only one that was confused by that. :)

Kreyzhorse
January 19, 2009, 04:10 PM
wouldn't be a good idea. if you draw your weapon in a situation with a LEO in the room, guess who just became another target for the LEO He doesn't know that you are on his side.


+1 to that.

blume357
January 19, 2009, 04:17 PM
now a target... that's why there are very strict rules of why and when you should.

Just keep in mind if you ever do draw it... it is a bad day. how bad depends on a lot of things, many of them unknown.

David Armstrong
January 19, 2009, 07:47 PM
+1 to what Teuthis said. Just because something "goes down" doesn't mean you have to get involved with it, LE presence or not. It is not a good idea to draw your weapon unless you or a loved one is in imminent danger.

btolliverjr
January 19, 2009, 08:13 PM
David, Please read post #7. Are you saying that if someone elses mother or grandmother or daughter was in imminent danger and you were able to stop the threat that you wouldn't?

kalstrand
January 20, 2009, 03:23 PM
In Oklahoma the law specifically mentions you can use the firearm to defend yourself, a family member, or an employee. It doesn't say you can defend anyone else. I guess if you find yourself in a situation its up to you to decide if you will defend someone else.

Bitmap
January 20, 2009, 03:51 PM
Quote:
If something "goes down" in a room, there is no necessity for you to do anything anyway. Perhaps the best thing you can do is quietly and acutely observe. Our CCW permits are for self defense, not saving the world.

Actually your permit is to protect both yourself AND others. If you are in McDonalds and someone comes in and opens fire on someone else, are you just going to sit there with your gun on your side and do nothing while he kills innocent people? or are you going to neutralize the threat and keep him from killing innocent people? Would you wait to open fire until he attacked specifically you?

Actually, that is a wise approach. You don't have an obligation to risk your own safety to try and protect others. However, if you do try and you make a mistake you will get all the blame and all the legal problems and legal bills. You may also get yourself killed or crippled.

B.N.Real
January 20, 2009, 06:40 PM
If I am in the room and "something goes down" and I am armed.

I WILL draw my weapon and keep it down,out of sight.

I am not going to gamble on ANYBODY to keep me safe if there is someone in a room that is endangering me or anyone else in the room.

You can have a drawn weapon and not be open about it.

Aim it at the floor and simply be quiet.

If the LEO needs help,you are ready to help.

If not,you just put your handgun away.

btolliverjr
January 20, 2009, 06:48 PM
Actually, that is a wise approach. You don't have an obligation to risk your own safety to try and protect others. However, if you do try and you make a mistake you will get all the blame and all the legal problems and legal bills. You may also get yourself killed or crippled.

Sorry, but if I was in a room and a perp came in and pulled a gun and was going to kill someone else, even if I had never met that person before, I would take action. I couldn't just sit back and watch that person be killed just becuase they weren't "MY" loved one. The are definately someone elses!

csmsss
January 20, 2009, 07:13 PM
The idea of blithely sitting there doing nothing while a bad guy kills other people is repellent to me. That innocent person about to be killed is someone's wife, mother, brother, father, whatever. I couldn't live with myself if I knew that I had the opportunity to stop the killing and did absolutely nothing to do so.

chris in va
January 20, 2009, 07:15 PM
Are you saying that if someone elses mother or grandmother or daughter was in imminent danger and you were able to stop the threat that you wouldn't?

There are definitely people out there that wouldn't take action to prevent/lessen a crime. Believe it.:(

Much of it stems from litigation fear and regulations. Sad.

btolliverjr
January 20, 2009, 10:13 PM
The idea of blithely sitting there doing nothing while a bad guy kills other people is repellent to me. That innocent person about to be killed is someone's wife, mother, brother, father, whatever. I couldn't live with myself if I knew that I had the opportunity to stop the killing and did absolutely nothing to do so.

Glad to hear there is at least one other person out there that would protect my family or friends or just innocent people (ie. someones loved ones)
Thanks csmsss ;)

csmsss
January 20, 2009, 10:45 PM
Glad to hear there is at least one other person out there that would protect my family or friends or just innocent people (ie. someones loved ones)
Thanks csmsss Hey, no problem. It's just how I'm made. I've got a daughter, and as much as I desperately want to be around for her as she grows up, there's a big part of me that wants her to know that her daddy would do the right thing in a time of emergency, and not just the convenient/safe thing.

scorpion_tyr
January 20, 2009, 11:08 PM
This situation would come with so many variables that it's impossible to list them. My best answer is to just do what seems right at the time. If the BG is right next to me with the LEO across the room I'm probably going to hit the floor. If the LEO is in front or beside me I'm probably going to draw and try to position myself where I can take aim at the BG without even looking like I'm aiming at the LEO. Then I'd just keep my mouth shut.

Once again... it's all about what seems right at the time. I wouldn't take a yes or no answer and run with it in every similar scenario.

David Armstrong
January 21, 2009, 01:33 PM
David, Please read post #7. Are you saying that if someone elses mother or grandmother or daughter was in imminent danger and you were able to stop the threat that you wouldn't?
Depends on lots of variables. The OP was "something going down." That covers a lot of territory. As for Mom and Ganny and daughter, WHAT is going down? Who am I with? What is the danger to me and my family? Just because you can do something doesn't make it a good idea.

Jim March
January 21, 2009, 04:30 PM
What you DO is, you take cover from the bad guy's fire yet try and keep an eye on the cop. Let him/her take first crack at the problem. Don't let them know you're armed. But damned well get ready to step in if the cop is losing or runs dry because it's nearly certain that a cop-killer will try and eliminate witnesses and you WILL be the next target.

As a bonus, if you can keep a wounded or ammo-less cop from getting "finished off", so much the better.

If you have to let the cop know he/she has a potential ally, calmly but clearly say "I'm a CCW permitholder - do you need help!?" All cops have the ability to deputize citizens during an emergency - it's extremely rare but it can happen.

#18indycolts
January 21, 2009, 04:47 PM
Try asking a cop what they would prefer YOU do. There won't be just one cop handling this problem for long...it won't take long for a situation like this to be crowded with cops...and you're there with your gun...think any of the cops are going to have their guns drawn on YOU? You bet.

btolliverjr
January 21, 2009, 04:55 PM
Depends on lots of variables. The OP was "something going down." That covers a lot of territory. As for Mom and Ganny and daughter, WHAT is going down? Who am I with? What is the danger to me and my family? Just because you can do something doesn't make it a good idea.

Just let me clarify where I have been coming from with this. I was not talking about if there was a LEO in the room. My original post to this thread was
wouldn't be a good idea. if you draw your weapon in a situation with a LEO in the room, guess who just became another target for the LEO He doesn't know that you are on his side.
What I have been talking about since then is if there is NO LEO. And I BELIEVE that some of the others that are commenting whether they would stop a killer or just sit and watch him kill (someone other than THEIR loved ones) are also making their stand from a situation without a LEO. Am I correct or have I been misunderstanding?

Glenn E. Meyer
January 21, 2009, 06:39 PM
However, the thread is about whether you would act if there was an LEO already interacting - so why don't we stay with that?

Whether one should intervene in a situation where the victim is not an immediate something or other of yours as been beaten to death in the Internet forums for years.

I was in a FOF class, where the bad guy held up the store, the GG pulled the gun and started the gun fight. I hit the deck, which was concrete and got some nice bruises for the effort but it seemed like a plan at the time.

Chuckusaret
January 22, 2009, 11:19 PM
I have a CCW for self, family and my fellow mans protection against would be bad guys in the event there are no LE types on the scene. I have no hang ups about using deadly force. Done it before and can do it again

oldkim
January 23, 2009, 03:06 PM
Okay,

How about this.... You are the cop (LEO) and you have a gunman shooting. You are going to engage and then you see another guy pull his gun too. Hmmm. Now as the LEO do you have one or two BG? Tough one to say depending on how he/she perceives you. You already know the first one is definitely a BG as he's shooting people.

In a split second assessment he engages an active BG. Now, what to do with you. Depending on the angle and how things unfold he may be shooting you next.

It's like a kid pointing a very realistic airsoft gun at a cop. He's justified to shoot you in all 50 states if the appropriate actions were taken and the child failed to follow or made threatening movements.

So, be aware of your situation.

Playing the WHAT IF's
If you can take out the BG right then? Hmm, tough one. I would. If not, let the LEO engage. If he's not able to then back him up. Let him know you'll be his back up as a law abiding citizen with a CCW. He'll appreciate having the help. How much he uses you will depend on the situation.

As to not engaging because it wasn't "my family or me" That's a total waste of time. If someone is shooting people in the mall and you didn't do anything... you have to live with yourself and may God have mercy on your cowardly soul.

rixret
January 24, 2009, 12:59 PM
How about some reply's from the LEO community? What do they think of these scenario's?

Hondo11
January 25, 2009, 04:41 AM
(I'm not LEO anymore) If I were the LEO in question, then I would certainly appreciate the help. BUT, I would want to KNOW that you were help and not another badguy. Target discrimination and all. Whatever you do, make sure he KNOWS.

Wagonman
January 25, 2009, 11:08 AM
The Cop will be announcing his office and yelling commands--"POLICE DROP THE GUN" comply with them. Once the Copper IDs himself he has scene command. You don't want to be hit with friendly fire. BE ULTRA-COOPERATIVE and THICK SKINNED. When we were taught about off duty stuff we were told to expect to be roughly cuffed and treated as a offender until things got sorted out.

hogdogs
January 25, 2009, 11:21 AM
way back 15-20 years a feller walked into a busy small gun store and announced a robbery. Mind you, he walked past a marked patrol car of an officer who was inside. He was shot by the officer, the store keeps and civilian customers. He was hit upwards of 15 times. They do not know who fired the fatal wound as bullets from several guns were found in vital regions thru out the BG... No one else was injured or detained... I do understand this is a unique circumstance being a gun store however.
Brent