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View Full Version : If ever there was a good time to have a CCW...


Playboypenguin
January 15, 2009, 03:28 PM
...it would be now in Portland.

We are pretty much in the middle of a gang war these days. It seems a gang decided to kill a prominent member of another gang at a funeral about a month ago and all hell has broken loose since then. Gang violence/shootings has increased dramatically in the past month.

Going to the Lloyd Center was always a dubious task but lately the gang presence there has exploded. Shootings have also skyrocketed there as well. There has been two shooting this month in the parking garage already.

I will not even go to some parts of town anymore. It will be awhile before I feel the need to go to Gresham. I do not even go to the big gunshop (Keith's) out there anymore.

Driving down MLK in N. Portland really is getting scary too. It is like the east side is lined with groups from one gang and the west side by groups from another. When driving down the middle you can really feel the stare down going on and it makes you wonder when the stares and shouts of insults will turn into something worse and you will be caught in the middle.

I have also noticed a lot more suspicious activities downtown at night. We used to go out and see almost no one on the street after 11pm but now the corners are filled with groups of young people standing around for hours.

A good friend of ours lives in N. Portland in some new luxury condos. When she bought them the area was undergoing a revival, but now the gangs have taken back over according to her. She is even afraid to walk her dog or go to the bus stop. I have had to go over twice now and escort her to work and back while her car was in the shop because she is afraid to ride the bus like she used to do.

I just cannot believe some people will live in these circumstances and still be against average citizens having a means of defense. The friend I have been escorting to work is very anti-gun, but it is funny how quickly her attitude changed when she thought she was in danger. She wanted me and my gun there all of the sudden.

The Great Mahoo
January 15, 2009, 03:48 PM
Its a shame that things have taken a turn for the worse, there. It's too bad that things can get so bad at all, let alone that people are willing to put up with it and still be against personal protection rights to carry. Even when up to their neck in potential trouble themselves, they think more guns in the city will just make things worse.

I hope everything goes well for you and things get straightened out soon. In the mean time, stay calm, stay armed, stay safe.

sserdlihc
January 15, 2009, 03:49 PM
I have been reading about this in a lot of urban areas. Does it seem that the Mayor, City Council or LE are being proactive when dealing with the gang problem? Or are they just turning a blind eye to it? I don't know how the city government is set up in Portland but you should be able to attend a city council metting and voice your concerns. Atleast you can be proactive concerning the problem, when others aren't.

Other than that, I would say that you are right about having a CCW. If the City government won't protect it's law abiding citizens...well it is left upon the citizen him/herself.

#18indycolts
January 15, 2009, 03:54 PM
that sux, my sister lives in portland and i love it out there. I always felt safer there than visiting detroit or chicago.

Smaug
January 15, 2009, 03:54 PM
That's a good story with the escorting. Next time you need to escort here, why not bring along the paperwork and a postage-paid envelope for CCW permit? :cool: Maybe a hand-done coupon for a couple shooting lessons from PBP?

Playboypenguin
January 15, 2009, 03:54 PM
Does it seem that the Mayor, City Council or LE are being proactive when dealing with the gang problem?
They are trying but the bad economy is making it really hard. How do you pay more officers and liaisons when the budget is being slashed. Then add on that there are just being more and more poor teens on the streets and it snowballs. Money really is the root of the problem.

Playboypenguin
January 15, 2009, 03:58 PM
that sux, my sister lives in portland and i love it out there. I always felt safer there than visiting detroit or chicago.

We are still not in the same league as places like Birmingham, AL or anything...but things have gotten a lot worse than normal.

Brian Pfleuger
January 15, 2009, 03:58 PM
I just cannot believe some people will live in these circumstances...

Frankly, I'd end that sentence right there.

#18indycolts
January 15, 2009, 04:08 PM
being able to legally carry should ease the mind, right?

Bauer
January 15, 2009, 04:55 PM
Is it just a coincidence that a few MLK ways that I have seen seem to be located around lower class, gang ridden, areas?

MrNiceGuy
January 15, 2009, 05:13 PM
i was just in portland for a week

i did allot of walking and picture taking, almost exclusively at night till 3 or 4 am, in the "shady" areas.... problem free

honestly, i havent noticed anything out of the ordinary in portland nor do i feel any less safe
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9969/portlandbypuffnstufflk2.th.jpg (http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=portlandbypuffnstufflk2.jpg)

Playboypenguin
January 15, 2009, 05:15 PM
honestly, i havent noticed anything out of the ordinary in portland nor do i feel any less safe
Try living here for awhile.
i did allot of walking and picture taking, almost exclusively at night till 3 or 4 am, in the "shady" areas.... problem free

What "shady areas" would these have been? What would you be taking pics of in these "shady areas?"

That pic you posted is nice, but definitely not taken from any place shady. That is right downtown on the east side of the river.

B.N.Real
January 15, 2009, 05:25 PM
Time to bring our troops home from Iraq and send them downtown.

Playboypenguin
January 15, 2009, 05:27 PM
Time to bring our troops home from Iraq and send them downtown.
Portland is one of those weird cities where the downtown is actually pretty safe. It is the surrounding areas and suburbs that are bad. Not all the suburbs. Most are nice. It is pretty much a few select areas.

dipper
January 15, 2009, 05:29 PM
Money really is the root of the problem.

NO!, money is not the root of the problem----that's a knee jerk reaction and an easy out.
The "problem" goes much deeper than money and involves how our society has changed in the last 50 years or so.
Sorry PBP but I couldn't resist.....MANY people complain about lack of money when the problem COULD be addressed right in our own homes for next to nothing.
I could go on but I won't.....we all need just to be honest and take a good hard look at what we are doing to our society and what we a LETTING others do to us.

B.N.Real
January 15, 2009, 05:38 PM
Unfortunatley,right where one of your good friends has moved to.

The bad thing is,even if she gets a weapon,she will need training and a complete overhaul of her gun use mindset to be able to defend herself.

And,if she is an attractive,young woman,she is a prime target for the very criminals that do this "life sucks,let me kill/rape someone to feel better about it." garbage.

I once worked with a stunning young girl named Heather that one night coming back from a nightclub in D.C. was attacked by several thugs.

Classic carjack deal.

Her boyfriend was killed and she was shot as well.

And when she was on the ground,they shot her several more times just for good measure.

She survived.

I only saw her once after that,about a year later.

I could only look at her and smile that she was alive standing there.

All that for a 'blanking' car.

MrNiceGuy
January 15, 2009, 05:38 PM
What "shady areas" would these have been? What would you be taking pics of in these "shady areas?"


northeast portland mostly, trying to find images that most suburbanites rarely see or atleast try to caputre every day sights in a new light


That pic you posted is nice, but definitely not taken from any place shady. That is right downtown on the east side of the river.

naw, that's the token portland shot
every weekend photographer to go through there has practically the same shot
it's back behind omzi, go under the bridge next to the homeless camp where they're doing all of the construction.
even at 3am, the homeless camp was still hoppin :D

Playboypenguin
January 15, 2009, 05:39 PM
Dipper, sent you a PM.

Brian Pfleuger
January 15, 2009, 05:41 PM
money is not the root of the problem


I have to agree. I've know stone broke people living in squalor that are some of the most giving, honest, compassionate people I've met in my life.

Morals. You either have them or you don't. Good people don't and won't do bad things, bad people will. It really is that simple.

Playboypenguin
January 15, 2009, 05:42 PM
northeast portland mostly, trying to find images that most suburbanites rarely see or atleast try to caputre every day sights in a new light

NE is not dangerous. You need to get a lot further from downtown for it to get bad. The homeless stay close to the city for that very reason. They do not feel safe in NoPo, Gresham, or Aloha. I am at those camps all the time. I used to work for Streetlight and I still do outreach to homeless youths. :)

Playboypenguin
January 15, 2009, 05:49 PM
Morals. You either have them or you don't. Good people don't and won't do bad things, bad people will. It really is that simple.

Anecdotes aside, poverty is the single most contributing factor to how likely you will be to get involved in a gang, commit a violent crime, spend time in prison, etc.

That is just the reality of the situation. To try and pretend otherwise is like trying to pretend strict gun laws deal with illegal gun use. It is self delusion for personal reasons.

cjw3cma
January 15, 2009, 05:51 PM
Ya all need a Soylent Green manufacturing plant in Portland.

Playboy - see where I live? Not the best reputation in southern Oregon.

Brian Pfleuger
January 15, 2009, 06:17 PM
Anecdotes aside, poverty is the single most contributing factor...

I would assert that poverty is the catalyst. Morals are the surface on which that catalyst acts.

Good people living in poverty do good things. Bad people living in poverty do bad things.


Anyway, not meaning to hi-jack your thread. Carry on.;)

Hirlau
January 15, 2009, 06:20 PM
We can debate city gang problems all day and just accomplish nothing. If poverty was the "single most contributing factor " money would be found and the problem solved.

Lets spare all the "self delusion for personal reasons";)
AND

Talk about firearms:)

oneounceload
January 15, 2009, 06:25 PM
Lack of education, drugs and no parents cause more issues than just being "poor"

The South has traditionally been poor in lots of areas. Years ago, black or white, there wasn't this "gangsta" attitude at the levels we see today. IMO, society has gone downhill quickly since LBJ's "Great Society" and all of the subsequent gov't hand-out/take care of you mentality.

OK, off my rant:D

Playboypenguin
January 15, 2009, 06:28 PM
Let's not turn this into an unrelated rant session about why things are the way they are and let's not try and pretend the south was a utopia. I am from there and being a little different could get you killed 40 years ago (and sometimes even today)...and people condoned the violence.

Hirlau
January 15, 2009, 06:30 PM
+1---Oneonceload;)

lawboy
January 15, 2009, 06:30 PM
Stop escorting her for free. By that I mean, the next time she calls tell her you will do it on one condition, that she apply for a CCW and let you begin teaching her to shoot. Bring the paperwork with you. Tell her if she renegs, not to call you again for an escort because there are companies she can hire for that. Tell her that her safety is her responsibility and that you don't mind lending a hand, which, in this case, means assisting her in obtaining the ability to meet the obligation herself long term. That is good friendship.

Playboypenguin
January 15, 2009, 06:39 PM
I would love to, but this lady is not likely to change her stance on owning a gun. She is willing to be protected but not to alter her own beliefs. Not everyone can be educated...or even wants to be. I did give her a can of bear spray. :)

MrNiceGuy
January 15, 2009, 06:49 PM
NE is not dangerous. You need to get a lot further from downtown for it to get bad. The homeless stay close to the city for that very reason. They do not feel safe in NoPo, Gresham, or Aloha. I am at those camps all the time. I used to work for Streetlight and I still do outreach to homeless youths.

i'll have to pm you some of my pictures of the "bad" areas

Money is partly the problem... the real problem is where the money is being spent
Portland is dropping millions on green projects, artwork, new bike paths, and beautification... yet doesnt have a penny for youth programs, extra police, or schools.
The same thing is happening down here in eugene.

so i'd say that the bureaucracy and their control of the money, or lack there of, is at the root of the problem.

Dave85
January 15, 2009, 07:33 PM
Personally, I would leave it at the bear spray and not take on any more responsibility than that. Not that I have a hard heart toward any of my anti-gun friends (trust me, I have plenty). It's just that their casual attitude and lack of understanding about personal security issues would raise my risk level. Have you discussed procedures with your friend about how she should behave if things got scary? Since she has turned her safety over to you, do you trust her to obey your commands in a hairy situation, or is she likely to get spooked and try to scare off some menacing gangbanger by telling him that you have a gun?

People only alter their own beliefs when they are driven to it. Some people are driven to such changes almost exclusively by strong emotion. Those of us who value reason are moved to change by emotion too, but also by logic and evidence. Sounds like your friend might fall into the former category.

Your protection makes her feel safe. Without the fear, she has no impetus to revisit her beliefs. This leaves anyone in your position two alternatives: withdraw your protective services, and leave her to face the fear, or continue to do what you can to keep her safe, knowing all the while that the first chance she gets, she will vote to take away your ability to provide that protection. Such is the insidious nature of that character type. It's maddening to watch.

dipper
January 15, 2009, 07:36 PM
Good post Dave85.

Ricklin
January 15, 2009, 10:38 PM
Sad, I grew up in Portland, glad I'm down here on the coast now, big city sux. Astoria is pretty mellow. Main danger here is getting hit by a drunk driver.

LightningJoe
January 17, 2009, 10:01 AM
Anecdotes aside, poverty is the single most contributing factor to how likely you will be to get involved in a gang, commit a violent crime, spend time in prison, etc.


No. Multiple effects. Same cause. Poverty is one of the effects.


Statistics will lead you to some weird conclusions if you don't understand the phenomenon.

Starcheck55
January 17, 2009, 12:19 PM
Portland is dropping millions on green projects, artwork, new bike paths, and beautification... yet doesnt have a penny for youth programs, extra police, or schools.

as someone who bikes a lot...I can appreciate how much cycling infrastructure portland has established in recent years. on the other side, portland is up there when it comes to bikes stolen per year. so while they've made their city very "green" and bike friendly...there is an inordinate amount of crime.

Top 10 bike-theft cities

Kryptonite's complete Top 10 bike theft cities 2007:

1. Philadelphia 1,517,550 people (2000)
2. Chicago 2,836,659 (2007)
3. New York 8,274,527
4. San Francisco 799,183
5. Tucson, Portland (tie) 575,930 (2007)
7. Denver
8. New Haven, Conn.
9. Cambridge, Mass.
10. Austin, Texas

Kryptonite is a manufacturer of bike locks BTW.

So basically portland is 5th behind 4 other cities that have significantly larger populations.

IMO too much spending on green space, bike lanes/paths/infrastructure and too little on education, police and "real" social services. But what would you suspect from such a liberal "intellectual" city. They'd rather spend their money on things that makes them feel like they are more evolved individuals while closing their eyes to the real problems of society.

/rant off

#18indycolts
January 17, 2009, 12:45 PM
Quote:NO!, money is not the root of the problem----that's a knee jerk reaction and an easy out.


So a tyrannical capitalistic government and the Federal Reserve aren't out to do just one thing? MAKE MONEY?!?! Lemme guess, you still think our money is backed by gold?:rolleyes: Everything that this country is about involves the mighty dollar, to say otherwise is ignorant...a knee jerk reaction would be to blame the problem on anything but the problem.

Dave85
January 17, 2009, 12:54 PM
First, on a personal note, it's nice to see a class of crime for which Detroit isn't top 10 ranked! Huzzah!

Second, (and this is really aimed at keeping this thread vaguely handgun related) does Smith & Wesson still make bicycles? Maybe if you had one of those, the thief would think twice; worried that either the owner owned some other products by that manufacturer, or that it was a cop bike.

sophijo
January 17, 2009, 01:24 PM
...sounds like Five Corners in New York; turn of the century. I wonder if things really have changed that much?

Playboypenguin
January 17, 2009, 01:39 PM
...sounds like Five Corners in New York; turn of the century. I wonder if things really have changed that much?

The reality of the situation is "no...the world has not changed that much." Except for that fact it has actually gotten safer. The "idealic American Way" of the 40's and 50's only exists in movies. You were actually more likely to die violently in much of this country's past than you are in it's present.

The population has changed so the dynamic is a bit different but otherwise things have not changed that much. This country's freedoms have always come with a price. One of those prices is that there are all kinds of bad people along with the good. This has always been a country where the ability to defend one's self and their family has been of great value.

If you live in a country where a harsh government executes and deports anyone it finds undesirables you have less of a need for defense while walking the street. Here in this country you have always needed to care for your own personal safety...against both government and fellow citizen. That is why firearms are such a bio part of our culture.

dipper
January 17, 2009, 01:53 PM
So a tyrannical capitalistic government and the Federal Reserve aren't out to do just one thing? MAKE MONEY?!?! Lemme guess, you still think our money is backed by gold? Everything that this country is about involves the mighty dollar, to say otherwise is ignorant...a knee jerk reaction would be to blame the problem on anything but the problem.

No, I know my money is not backed by gold.

You can't see the forest for the trees my friend.
I'll just say this, that money DOES NOT make people do the right thing----never has never will.
I know plenty of poor people that are great upstanding citizens and many that aren't.

Doesn't cost anything to watch your children and raise them properly, just time and effort----tired of the "I'm a thug because I'm poor" BS.
Contrary to what the bleeding heart liberals who are just after your votes and willing to OK any kind of behavior for your vote, MONEY isn't the problem.

Maybe not attending high school or drinking 40s with your friends in the parking lot or worrying about gold teeth and chains and air jordans or fathering multiple children with different mothers and then not supporting them either financially or emotionally etc. etc. are some of the problems.

No, it's easier to just blame the government than to take ANY personal responsibility ----that way, you can live your life the way you want and there is always someone else to blame.

Hey, I got an idea, why don't we just raise taxes to 75% and give these thugs a paycheck....lets BUY our safety...what ya think??

Give me a break!!!

Oh, and your right, most everything in this country does revolve around the almighty dollar, but your CHARACTER, ETHICS, and MORALITY should not!!!

YARDDOG(1)
January 17, 2009, 02:20 PM
+ 1 Dipper / It does not cost alot of money to raise your kids with MORALS & PRIORITY'S PS STAY ARMED & SAFE ;)

spamanon
January 17, 2009, 03:02 PM
Hey PBP,

I feel your pain. I lived in Portland for about 4 years spanning 1990 when the gangs were just getting big there, and were very out of control. I went to Madison H.S. and was there for a shooting and stabbing, as well as many-many beatings. I was robbed at knife-point, then at gunpoint within a year. Fun, Fun.

My brother works in Lloyd center and lives very close nearby! I don't think he would carry if the gun was free!

I thought that the city cleaned that stuff up in the late '90s. I guess not.

#18indycolts
January 17, 2009, 03:26 PM
Quote: Maybe not attending high school or drinking 40s with your friends in the parking lot or worrying about gold teeth and chains and air jordans or fathering multiple children with different mothers and then not supporting them either financially or emotionally etc. etc. are some of the problems.


Wow I'm impressed that you're not being too sterotypical...:rolleyes: So in the history of America, there hasn't been any racial oppression? :mad: You need to watch something other than FOX news, or you probably think even that is unbiased, eh? The media spends billions on propaganda and you, like a LOT of americans are why they spend that kind of money...cuz apparently it works.

Brian Pfleuger
January 17, 2009, 03:33 PM
history....racial oppression...



That's exactly what it is too. History. Ironic that we would still be talking about that 3 days before we inaugurate the first black president.


There are plenty of reasons things have happened IN THE PAST. The single largest problem today is lack of morality and personal responsibility. Oh, and using things like "racial oppression" as an excuse for lack of personal responsibility and morality.

This thread will be ending soon...

spamanon
January 17, 2009, 03:37 PM
That's exactly what it is too. History. Ironic that we would still be talking about that 3 days before we inaugurate the first black president.
There are plenty of reasons things have happened IN THE PAST. The single largest problem today is lack of morality and personal responsibility. Oh, and using things like "racial oppression" as an excuse for lack of personal responsibility and morality.
This thread will be ending soon...

Not before I give you a +1!


Wow I'm impressed that you're not being too sterotypical... So in the history of America, there hasn't been any racial oppression? You need to watch something other than FOX news, or you probably think even that is unbiased, eh? The media spends billions on propaganda and you, like a LOT of americans are why they spend that kind of money...cuz apparently it works.

Stereotypes usually have some basis in reality, even if they are not true entirely and for every case. Why are violence portraying, Ho slappin, 40 drinking rappers so popular if they reflect nothing of certain segments of society? FOX news is fairer, even though they are more right leaning, than any other major news network. I love it when a liberal says fox news is soooo biased when they have BOTH acknowledged conservatives and Liberals on staff. I guess the only definition of fair liberals will recognize is when there are only unacknowledged liberals on staff, with nary a conservative voice to be found.

Playboypenguin
January 17, 2009, 03:39 PM
This thread will be ending soon...

Actually, it just needs a few posts deleted. Most of the posts are on topic regarding the climate we live in and why a means of self defense is so needed these days. It just seems some people want to pretend skin pigmentation plays a role in societies ills. That is all well and good but society had the same disease when almost everyone was the same color. It is a matter of character and means. Money does not make you do good, but lack of it will make you do bad. A starving man is more likely to steal than one with food on his table. A man with no sense of self worth is more likely to join a gang than a child with a strong family support system (and parents working multiple jobs to survive have less time to spend with their children).

The end result is the same regardless of the cause though. We need to be able to defend our own.

#18indycolts
January 17, 2009, 03:45 PM
funny u guys didn't mention anything about the propaganda...no rebuttals? And all the oppression is over now because it all happened IN THE PAST! I guess having your head in the sand makes it ok to spout nonsense.

dipper
January 17, 2009, 03:46 PM
Wow I'm impressed that you're not being too sterotypical... So in the history of America, there hasn't been any racial oppression? You need to watch something other than FOX news, or you probably think even that is unbiased, eh? The media spends billions on propaganda and you, like a LOT of americans are why they spend that kind of money...cuz apparently it works.

Yeah, right.

But you haven't addressed what I said, are YOU saying that what I wrote is not true??
You saying that Fox News (and others) are just a " vast right wing conspiracy" and that none of these people exists?
Were have I heard that before---Oh, yeah Hillary----EVERYTHING was a conspiracy.

Yeah, I've seen the racial oppression of today----section 8 housing that puts uneducated women that are to stupid to not get pregnant to 4 different men in houses that many working people can not afford.
I see the food stamps and free lunches and free health care and free day care etc. givin to people that don't appreciate it.
I see some women who don't work get their nails and hair done for big money while my wife who has worked hard all her life doesn't.
Yeah, real freakin oppressed.
Feel free to make up for people who made **** poor life choices if you want, there are plenty out there that will take it.
AND, don't assume that what I have said is limited to one race or ethnic background because it isn't.

I grew up with people that WISHED they were that freakin oppressed.

My family came here from other countries and I can tell you that my grandparents were not so warmly welcomed here at the time.
The Italians, Polish, Irish , Chinese, and others faced oppression too at one time or another in history.

Hey, by YOUR way of thinking, the JEWS could make a pretty good case too.

Wake up.

Playboypenguin
January 17, 2009, 03:48 PM
Could you two take your racial oppression/propaganda debate to PM please?

There are some pretty good things being said and considered here regarding the reasons behind the societal ills that cause a need to carry...but those are not some of them. I actually agree with parts of both arguments but this is not the place to properly address them.

LightningJoe
January 17, 2009, 03:56 PM
It just seems some people want to pretend skin pigmentation plays a role in society's ills.


Racial and cultural variations in rates of crime and other social pathologies are among the more conspicuous phenomena in the world.


And while a starving man will steal, even a starving man won't kill you. Unless he's a vampire, I suppose. That is, you won't need a gun to deal with him.

dipper
January 17, 2009, 04:00 PM
No problem PB, BUT, like I said, this IS NOT a racial thing---it applies to all races.
If you choose to take it that way I guess your free to do so.

Also, like I said, I couldn't resist a comment after you made your comment that it is all about lack of money ....it isn't....it's all about lack of character and ethics and morals...that simple.

Again, I have seen what I described in most all races and ethnic backgrounds and was not implying what I said to any one race.

Also, consider the fact that in my immediate family, there are three races represented!:)

I'll leave you to your thread.

dipper
January 17, 2009, 04:05 PM
You're right, I'm done with some of the racial comments on here, first the blacks now the jews..

Don't put words in my mouth, I never mentioned blacks---you did....I guess it's in your mind.

I only mentioned the Jews as another race that CAN talk about oppression----plenty of oppression to go around in this world----no race has the market cornered----GET MY POINT??

GOOD, I'm done.

Starcheck55
January 17, 2009, 06:57 PM
I only mentioned the Jews as another race that CAN talk about oppression

Jewish isn't a race it is a religious identity, but I digress.

We all have the right to protect ourselves (trying to keep this thread on topic) against whoever we feel is a threat.

Some people are more threatened by those of another race, whether it is because of past experiences, anecdotal stories, media bias, or plain bigotry. The beauty of America is just this: you have the right to judge people based on anything you want. Just like we all have the right to choose whatever (legal) gun we want to carry...we can like/dislike a person for whatever reason we want.

If I want to dislike some person because they have red hair, or a southern accent...it is well within my rights. As long as I do not discriminate against them in regards to providing them with a home, or a job, or some other protected privileges spelled out by the government, then I'm good to go.

I understand we all want to live in a society where there is no hate, bigotry, ignorance, etc....but that is not going to happen. It is basic human biology to be more accepting of people who have a similar genetic makeup. Skin color, hair color, height, build, facial features. I don't think any of us (who live in the US) are afraid that if we marry someone of a different race we'll be persecuted or harmed. Yet statistically speaking almost all of us will marry (if you get married) someone of the same race.

Only 8.5% of (married) black men are married to NON black women (white, asian, other). Does that mean that 91.5% of black men are being racist for not choosing a mate of a different race? Of course not. You can't really control who you are (physically) attracted to. Humans have evolved in a way that we are more comfortable with people who are similar to ourselves and visa versa.

It doesn't make you racist, it makes you human. End of story.

LucifersPants
January 19, 2009, 09:04 PM
Well obviously the solution is banning all firearms in Portland, because as we all know if you take them away from ordinary productive citizens, the criminals will surely see the error of their ways, find Jesus and turn themselves in.:barf:

It really takes on a whole new dimension of stupidity when you put it in writing doesn't it? Yet there are those out there that actually believe that.

Al Norris
January 20, 2009, 12:05 AM
Totally off topic for L&CR