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View Full Version : Walking the dog, and stray dog/coyote attack


azredhawk44
January 13, 2009, 12:32 PM
Hasn't happened to me, but I've had my dog on a walk (on leash) a couple times now and seen coyotes not 25 yards away on the other side of the street in good old suburbia.

Let's say a stray dog or yote comes up to you and your dog. You're properly controlling and restraining your dog, but the stray animal closes distance outside of your ability to retreat or go another direction.

The stray is obviously interested in your dog, not necessarily in you.

I see two options:
#1 - let your dog loose.
#2 - shoot the stray.

Letting your dog loose doesn't guarantee that the fight won't make its way back to your legs anyways, resulting in the injuries you were trying to avoid. It also exposes your dog almost certainly to injuries or diseases carried by the stray/yote. Possibly even in death of your dog (being a piece of property in the eyes of the law).

Shooting the animal stops the threat. But, it leaves a lot of ambiguity about the appropriateness of the shoot. Requires police response, disposal of animal, at least a cursory interview or investigation into the righteousness of the shooting event.

Note that I don't mean to infer that it's okay to pop yotes while walking your dog at the neighborhood park... I'm just not sure what is "right" to do if a yote decides to get territorial with my dog on a leash and me unable to get away faster than the yote advances.

Would that fall under a "stand your ground/castle doctrine/no obligation to retreat" situation?

Brian Pfleuger
January 13, 2009, 12:35 PM
Would that fall under a "stand your ground/castle doctrine/no obligation to retreat" situation?

No, those rules are designed to prevent killing of people.

The only laws would be:

1)Is the animal protected in some way?

2)Is it legal to shoot in the area you are in?


If the answers are no,yes... shoot it on sight, if you are so inclined.

If it's somebody's pet and it's not legal to discharge your gun in that area then you or your dog better be under attack before you shoot it.

My last option would be to let my dog fight with another animal on purpose.

Cyklopz
January 13, 2009, 12:37 PM
Tough call for sure. Might be good idea to have OC spray and or an air horn as an alternative/first response for just such an occasion. I know OC does not always work (air horns don't either) but as we all know every bullet fired has a lawyers name attached to it. You might want to pose this question to your local DA office to determine if that would be shooting to protect property and whether or not that is legal in such a case.

Cy

azredhawk44
January 13, 2009, 12:45 PM
if that would be shooting to protect property

And that's what I'm trying to get to here... is this just a shooting to protect property (dog), or is this a shooting to protect my own well being?

Letting the dog go in the hopes of keeping the fight away from me... is that my responsibility, or do I have a legal option to retain my dog (property) even in light of the danger advancing (coyote) to both myself and my dog?

Let's say I have a baying chipmunk in a backpack, along with 5 pounds of day old ground beef (instead of the dog). Am I obligated to drop the squeeking bag of smelly-goodness and give it to the yote as he advances (yield property), or do I have an inherent right to defend myself from the aggression presented?

Can it be considered like a mugger with a knife who "just wants my money?"

csmsss
January 13, 2009, 12:52 PM
I own pugs, so....purposely allowing them to "fight" with another animal any larger than a hamster would be ludicrous. I would protect them, of course, should an unrestrained animal attack them, but I don't think I would do anything unless it was quite obvious that an attack was inevitable.

A coyote isn't likely to attack with a human around, but around these parts (southeast Texas) they are considered pests and lots of folks will shoot them if they see them on their property. Personally, I wouldn't believe my helpless pugs were in too much threat from a coyote if I'm around.

Brian Pfleuger
January 13, 2009, 01:00 PM
or do I have an inherent right to defend myself from the aggression presented?

Yes. Unless you can read the mind of a coyote then you don't know what it wants. It could be rabid, it could be starving and desperate. If I could fire a safe shot against an aggressive wild animal I would, regardless of the technical legality of it. I know how the police around here would respond and I'd call them myself afterword. They'd say "Good job, somebody could have been hurt."

muddinman_04
January 13, 2009, 01:14 PM
If I were walking my dog and a stray came at me with obvious intentions of harm, I feel there are a few other methods for stopping the animal short of using a firearm. I have a Siberian Husky and she is going to want to play more than attack so I would not have the option of using my dog as a defense.
I know lots of people who carry OC spray with them and even one woman who has scars from such an attack (she now carries her mace whenever she is walking her dog).
If the dog is really wanting a fight...I mean foaming at the mouth and looking to eat you and your dog, and you don't have any other means of protection, I don't see where firearm use cannot be justified as long as you are not emptying the clip on it and hottin and hollarin around like Yosemite Sam . I know a few people who have shot rabid raccoons within the city limits and the police don't even bat an eye.

popeyespappy
January 13, 2009, 01:25 PM
I have worked with Greyhound adoption groups for a number of years now. One of the pluses of adopting a retired racer is our adopters can expect a lot of support from the rest of us. One of the side affects of this is we communicate with each other on a very large scale. I know of at least a dozen incidents in the last 5 years in which a greyhound adopters and/or their hounds were attacked by stray/loose dogs. Most of these attacks resulted in injuries to the hound and expensive vet bills at the least. There were 2 cases where our adopters required stitches, one woman got a dislocated shoulder. There were a couple of seriously injured hounds and one hound that had to be euthanized as the result of injuries sustained in the attack.

I can only speak for myself here but my hounds are members of my family. They are well trained, well behaved (Pops works as a therapy dog in a nursing home), and under control at all times. I wouldn’t think twice about shooting a coyote or even the neighbor’s loose and out of control lab to protect myself and my hounds if I thought the other animal was being aggressive and there wasn’t a person standing behind it that might get hurt.

NRAhab
January 13, 2009, 01:39 PM
People are funny about dogs - the difference between shooting a dog which may or may not be someone's pet who has gotten loose in the neighborhood and shooting a coyote is huge. In our litigious society, shooting a dog opens yourself up to a world of lawsuits if it turns out the animal is someone's pet; to the point where if I'm walking around in my neighborhood I would have to be in imminent peril of death or grievous bodily harm before I'd shoot a dog.

A coyote on the other hand isn't a pet, and as a "wild animal" doesn't enjoy the protection of popular conception - as such if a coyote was attacking my pet and I had a safe shot, I would take that with much less hesitation than I would on a dog.

azredhawk44
January 13, 2009, 01:43 PM
To all: Please note that I am not talking about shooting an animal (dog or coyote) just because it's within pistol range. I'm talking about a situation where an obviously stray dog (no collar, mangey, etc) or coyote makes a deliberate attempt to close distance with a dog being walked on a leash. Said animal has territorial/aggressive body language and continues to close distance, but prior to a lunge or charge.

Brian Pfleuger
January 13, 2009, 01:44 PM
the difference between shooting a dog which may or may not be someone's pet who has gotten loose in the neighborhood and shooting a coyote is huge.

Not if they're attacking me or my dog it's not. Bang. Sure, people will be mad about the dog. Oh well, keep it locked up. Better yet, don't own a dog that will attack other dogs or people if it's loose. I just solved the problem for them. Now, if it's some ankle biter that I can keep away with my foot, that's different. If it's big enough to be dangerous or it's a wild animal, Bang.

Wuchak
January 13, 2009, 01:47 PM
Pepper spray, get what your mailmail carries, and a good solid walking stick or cane. Check out the different offerings from cold steel. They sell a nice looking one that looks like a hawthorn but is made of resin. A good tall wooden hiking staff would work too. Since you are out walking the dog a walking stick is not out of place at all. A revolver too. If you do have to shoot you might not be able to until it's already on you or your dog, necessitating pushing the gun into the attacking animal. This is no time to push your pistol out of battery or have it jam on the return because it is still too close to the animal.

csmsss
January 13, 2009, 01:49 PM
A threat is a threat. I wouldn't be the least bit hesitant to shoot someone else's dog, even if I knew who owned it, if it was attacking my dog(s). Doesn't matter it has a collar, doesn't matter it normally is friendly. If it's attacking my dogs, I'm going to do whatever I have to do to stop it. If that means killing it, so be it.

troy_mclure
January 13, 2009, 01:56 PM
my parents neighbor(a old lady) just went thru this. her dog was attacked by a much larger dog in her yard, it was dragging her dog across the road when she shot and killed it.
she called the cops, and the judge ordered the (attacking)dogs owners to pay vet bills.

they tried to sue the old lady for destruction of private property, but the judge threw it out.

Keltyke
January 13, 2009, 02:05 PM
Yes. Unless you can read the mind of a coyote then you don't know what it wants. It could be rabid, it could be starving and desperate. If I could fire a safe shot against an aggressive wild animal I would, regardless of the technical legality of it.

A BIG +1 to THAT! Rabies is final, if the stray has it and bites your dog, it WILL die. Shoot and shoot quickly before it can close with your animal.

ZeSpectre
January 13, 2009, 02:26 PM
It's interesting to read this. I just posted over on THR with a small experiment I did. I'll repost here because I think it's relevant to the topic.

The short summary is that you need a LOT more buffer distance between yourself and a canine than I previously thought.

semi-realistic speed draw test
I wandered through the living room while the wife was channel surfing last night and caught part of some movie where a wolf charged a "sheriff" character, knocked him down and killed him. I was thinking to myself "now that's stupid, why didn't he draw and shoot".

Then I got to thinking about how fast my dog Donny runs around the yard when we're playing chase and fetch.

So I took my favorite CCW rig and an unloaded airsoft pistol and went out into the dark back yard with the dog. It was after dark but I had one of the back yard lights on so I figured it would give me plenty of illumination to see the "target".

Then the dog and I played "hide n' seek" a bit to get him warmed up (he sits on the porch and waits for me to call, then he comes to find me). The dog has learned that if he wants to "catch" me he has to alter his routes around the various backyard obstacles (outbuildings, trees, shrubs) and believe me he's gotten to be a sneaky cuss

So my pretend scenario was that I "didn't know" there was a threat and could only start my draw when I actually SAW the dog approaching.

I called Donny and waited. I spotted him (roughly 30 ft) as he snuck up from the side and bounded towards me at a flat out run. I swept my cover garment, pulled the airsoft gun, and he "tagged" me before I could raise and take aim.

Second try, He made it easy and beelined from the porch right to the bush I was standing near. Spotted him at about 40ft, swept the cover garment, drew and took aim. I estimate I would have had time for two, possibly three shots but aiming was VERY tough since my "target" was running straight at me, in the near dark, at top doggie speed.

Third try, He got sneaky again and came around an outbuilding. Spotted him at less than 20ft and had time enough to sweep and grab the grip (but not draw) before he "tagged" me.

We did this about seven times before the dog got winded and slowed down. Of those seven attempts I estimate that I would have had one, that's right ONE good hit before I was tagged. Giving myself the benefit of the doubt I might have hit two other times but they wouldn't have been good COM hits.

And this was with the reaction time benefit of knowing that we were playing this game!

Talk about an eye opener regarding response time vs distance!

So in terms of this topic I think I'd be likely to, at minimum, draw if not fire at a far greater distance than I would have previous to my little experiment. I love my dog I'm not going to use him as an expendable decoy. (I live in a fairly rural area BTW)

Glenn E. Meyer
January 13, 2009, 02:35 PM
Aren't most pet dogs vaccinated for rabies today - or they are supposed to be?

ZeSpectre
January 13, 2009, 02:37 PM
Glenn,
Yes but in many locations (especially rural areas) if your animal is attacked by one with rabies, they will also destroy your animal as well "just to be sure".

Dr. Strangelove
January 13, 2009, 02:37 PM
Let's say a stray dog or yote comes up to you and your dog. You're properly controlling and restraining your dog, but the stray animal closes distance outside of your ability to retreat or go another direction.

I'd say if you walking a public street or in a park, and an animal actually attacks you or your dog, or anyone else, for that matter, you would be morally justified in shooting it, legally - well, that depends on where you are.

Being the in the right doesn't always make something the best choice. People a get little freaky about their pets sometimes, and if you aren't actually shooting it in the road or another public place, you will be shooting it on someone else's property, where the "stray" may actually live. Pulling out a pistol and shooting a dog in someone's front yard is about the last thing I would want to do. Around here, you might just find yourself in a gunfight. I understand your situation, as I live in suburbia myself, and walk quite a bit around my neighborhood. I have had a few instances with non-controlled dogs, but none that made me particulary uncomfortable. I do carry a knife, but no firearm. I would report non-confined problem dogs to the police/animal control, explaining you have been threatened, and the coyotes to animal control or your state fish and game department.

Maybe it's time for some coyote hunting...

kraigwy
January 13, 2009, 02:46 PM
This is a no brainer to me, SHOOT THE OFENDING STRAY/COYOTE.

Of course Wyoming authorises such shooting to protect your pet and livestock.

It never happened to me (as far as walking the dog, sucker can walk himself)

But more then once a female coyote has set on the hillside calling my (or my neighbors). What happens female try to lure a dog off so it and its mate can kill it.

However, I hear a comotion, I fire up my rifle and shoot the offending (or any other coyote). My main concern is not just coyotes, but skunks, foxes, stray dogs, stray cats, etc, going after my chickens.

I get some pretty good varment hunting without getting off my porch.

Dr. Strangelove
January 13, 2009, 04:20 PM
azredhawk44 - just curious - do you live in a residential neighborhood or in the boonies? Seems it would be a bad idea to be a loose dog around some of these folks.

I understand the folks who live in the country being quick to shoot a coyote or a stray, that's just the way it is there. I used to live a rural setting myself, shot a coyote once and a well, lets say a federally protected bird that was stalking my cat in my backyard.

Now, however, I live across the street from the mall. As I mentioned in my post earlier, shooting a dog/coyote/whatever in someone's front yard or even the road would be the last thing I would do. There is just way too much chance of ricochet, bad line of sight, getting shot by the owner of the animal, etc. I do love my pets, but I'm not going to jail for them...

curt.45
January 13, 2009, 04:21 PM
there was a case in my town where an off duty cop shot a dog while he was jogging (it was running lose and chased him)

he is no longer a cop.

luvsasmith
January 13, 2009, 04:35 PM
If there is a threat and I have a firearm, I will dispose of the threat. That includes the neighbor's dog, a coyote, a person, a zombie, whatever. I'm not trying to sound like a hard guy here or anything but if something intends to do me or a loved one harm, I am obligated to alleviate that threat of violence. To me that is only responsible and common sense.

nazshooter
January 13, 2009, 04:47 PM
I'd agree with the others that suggested pepper/OC spray. By the time you KNOW that a stray dog is a threat rather than just being playful you're going to have a hard time getting a clear shot.

A couple of years ago I heard some noise in the back yard and went out to find a pit bull on my dogs back with his jaws locked onto the back of my dogs neck. My dog was on one of those runners (wow, that was a bad idea) and gotten himself too tangled up to do much of anything. I didn't have any weapons handy so tried kicking the pit until my shoe flew off but he didn't care. I finally just grabbed him by the collar and yanked him off fully expecting him to latch onto my forearm but he actually became submissive almost immediately. Given how close they were and how fast they were moving around I really don't think I would have wanted to risk a shot even if I had been armed. Even putting the barrel up to the pit's head would have risked a ricochet.

--
Ray

azredhawk44
January 13, 2009, 05:16 PM
azredhawk44 - just curious - do you live in a residential neighborhood or in the boonies? Seems it would be a bad idea to be a loose dog around some of these folks.


Suburbia. I live in Glendale, AZ... near the Arrowhead area if you're familiar with it at all. Pretty nice neighborhood. We've got these silly ponds all over the place with reclamated water that ducks and geese absolutely love. Houses swarming the water like it was beachfront property. Nicer cookie-cutter neighborhood.

Makes for a nice place to walk the dog, though.

The ducks have been attractive to the coyote population that wanders in from the unimproved desert a couple miles north. Sometimes dog walkers and hunting yotes share the park together. Never had a problem so far, but just trying to think ahead and see what's the best way to handle such a situation. I don't like the idea of a $1000 vet bill any more than I like the idea of a $10,000 lawyer bill.

Keltyke
January 13, 2009, 05:23 PM
Aren't most pet dogs vaccinated for rabies today - or they are supposed to be?

You're absolutely right, dogs from the pound, a vet, a pet store, or other commercial venture usually include the vaccination in the adoption fee...however...

The dog you get from a friend's litter may not ever see a vet. Someone may get a dog from PetSmart, get it vaccinated once, then never again. Dogs from an unwanted litter that are dumped, IF they survive (and a lot do), never see a vaccination.

Wild animals are ALWAYS a rabies threat.

Better to be safe than sorry. The penalty for guessing wrong is severe.

Chui
January 13, 2009, 08:59 PM
A coyote attacked a Golden Retriever here in SOUTHEASTERN Michigan last year. It was being walked on a leash with it's owner... Don't ASSUME they won't snatch your dog. Also do NOT drop your leash. Your dog is not likely to catch it and once out of YOUR sight there will be others and they WILL kill your dog and eat it.

In areas where WILDlife frequents then REAL breeds of dogs are required: Airedales, Pit Bulls, Bull Terriers, Am Staffs, Ridgebacks and other highly combative, high drive breeds. They'd kill a coyote. But I still wouldn't release one to "run one down". If you have two such dogs with heavy collars then have at it I guess but it's always best to avoid the conflict. A well placed round into the 'yote will send his wily rear end to Allah, Aton, whatever name you call your Creator.

scorpion_tyr
January 13, 2009, 09:32 PM
Personally speaking, I refuse to sacrifice my dog. In fact I know for a fact that one of my dogs, who happens to be a very mean looking member of a species of dog that supposedly "snap" on people, would hide behind me. He's done it before. If the animal gets close enough it's gonna get a bullet in the ear. Yes, I'll probably need a few stitches, but the bad dog will need a trash bag and a shovel.

onthejon55
January 13, 2009, 09:33 PM
Might be good idea to have OC spray and or an air horn as an alternative/first response for just such an occasion.

haha where are you from? I would shoot any stray that even thought about getting too close to me or my dog. as long as you are sure to discharge the bullet so it hits the ground and doesnt end up in someones window i see no reason not to. My grandpa always says "A loafing dog ain't worth a shot, but i'll waste one anyways"

triggerhappy2006
January 13, 2009, 10:23 PM
I own a rott/hound mix, 100lbs mostly muscle, very good at instigating with a look alone. For what ever reason a neighbors, 135lbs staffordshire terrier decided to break through the invisible fence(yes they can do it with enough determination despite what some companies advertise) well the owner immdieatly came after his dog but unfortunatly the dog was faster and had a head start so the dog got to mine first. I do not walk my dog on a leash for this reason alone, my dog stood by my side as the terrier approached I stepped in front of my dog grabbed the back of the terriers neck, kicked out the legs(a decently effective trick that I use on my own dog all the time when we play fight which causes no injuries). The terrier immediatly changed its attidude and retreated, the owner was in shock but apoligized for his dog. I continued on our walk with out concern. Animals feed off your energy and actions. As for yotes, most will not challenge a human presence unless they are in numbers in which case a .22 will quickly change their minds.

Keltyke
January 14, 2009, 07:08 AM
They'd kill a coyote.

And maybe get rabies doing it. You don't get the point. You don't want your dog to win a fight with a wild animal, you want the fight to never occur.

Coyotes won't approach a human unless starving, protecting babies, or rabid. All three can easily occur with our encroachment on their land and severe winters making food scarce.

Taking the chance of your dog having contact with a wild animal just isn't worth it. Shoot at a safe distance, these buggers can run FAST.

B.N.Real
January 14, 2009, 07:16 AM
I'll second what Keltyke said.

Coyotes as well as other wild animals will most of the time not come near you or your dogs unless they are hungry or sick.

In either case,a well placed bullet can prevent them from infecting you or your dogs.

And if you miss and the coyote is still standing there(not running away),then you know something is up with that animal.

Brian Pfleuger
January 14, 2009, 11:12 AM
Shoot at a safe distance, these buggers can run FAST.


+10


Save your compassion for people and friendly pets. Aggressive animal = dead animal.

Qualifier: I mean aggressive. Pets have a unique body language that you can learn if you pay attention. A pet dog running toward you barking may mean no harm, you can learn when and if they mean it and when they don't. An obviously wild animal isn't getting a second thought.

Keltyke
January 14, 2009, 12:25 PM
This situation is where a gun like The Judge might really shine. Hitting a fast-moving animal coming head on is chancy at best. Load the first couple of cylinders with maybe a #4 shot. That will cause pain and confusion and slow down or stop the charge so you can get a good shot off with the remaining three cylinders loaded with .45 LC JHPs.

clanger
January 14, 2009, 03:10 PM
Suburbia. I live in Glendale, AZ... near the Arrowhead area if you're familiar with it at all. Pretty nice neighborhood. We've got these silly ponds all over the place with reclamated water that ducks and geese absolutely love. Houses swarming the water like it was beachfront property. Nicer cookie-cutter neighborhood

I'm totally familiar with that area.
I cannot speak for Az laws.....

But if that sub-div was where I live, in L.A.? You will have to do some pretty fast talking if you carry a loaded f/a in public (w/o a CCW), much less disharge it in the city limits. You could show 'just cause' in killing the animal if yours got mauled. But again, in L.A.-L.A. land, you'll have some 'splaining to do and say bye-bye to your heater.

Had this happen once in the Santa Monica Mtns. (Yote's are brilliant. They sucker off-leash pets into a chase with a 'probe' then bushwack 'em and gang-rip 'em to shreds) Just bust the POS in the chops with a boot like the ratty flea-bag varmint it is and get on with life. Enjoy the yipe-yipe-yipe! as it hauls arse the other way. Golf clubs work great. So do large folder's.

Plus it beats a ricochet into yer neighbor's SL500 or living room. :eek:

BuckHammer
January 14, 2009, 05:10 PM
You don't want your dog to win a fight with a wild animal, you want the fight to never occur.
That would depend on the circumstances of the "fight" and the reason you got the dog. I live in the country on a farm, coyotes are a problem and need to be repelled, which I cannot do 24/7. Also, I know from experience that many breeds of domesticated dog will repel coyotes, which tend to be pretty cowardly, just fine. But, from the OP, sounds like a neighborhood, so take that comment for what its worth. I wouldn't want a neighborhood dog to get in a fight with a pack of coyotes, so when it comes to the OP's scenario, I would agree.
Shooting the animal stops the threat. But, it leaves a lot of ambiguity about the appropriateness of the shoot. Requires police response, disposal of animal, at least a cursory interview or investigation into the righteousness of the shooting event.
Not in my neck of the woods :D. Unless we're talking about someone's dog (like with a collar). I'm so glad I live in an area where almost everyone associates gunshots with a good time. No one calls the police when firearms are discharged. Then again, I don't hang around in neighborhoods with guns, just around the farm and in the woods.

Milspec
January 14, 2009, 06:06 PM
We've got several coyotes hanging around our property and so far they've kept a respectfull distance when we're out with the dogs. I suppose if one were to get too close I'd hit it in the eyes with the laser. If it didn't get the hint I'd follow up with a Silvertip... :)

Milspec

dipper
January 14, 2009, 06:22 PM
Aren't most pet dogs vaccinated for rabies today - or they are supposed to be?

Even if your dog has been vaccinated for rabies, that DOES NOT PROTECT YOU at the time of the attack.
Any saliva, blood or bodily fluid your dog has in it's mouth or on it's coat, could infect you if you touch it....and if there is even a chance you did, you're going to get the shots!!

I will shoot any dog or animal that is threatening me or my dog when out on a walk...provided it is a safe shot with no chance of harming anyone.....and I will make no excuses or apology for doing so.

csmsss
January 14, 2009, 09:55 PM
A coyote will naturally be wary of humans (or any other animal it can't easily take down on its own). Any time a coyote approaches you or allows you to approach it, alarm bells should be ringing in your head - that is an animal that is behaving abnormally. Same thing with raccoons, opossums, groundhogs. Any animal behaving aggressively toward you or your leashed pets should be considered an immediate threat.

orionengnr
January 14, 2009, 10:17 PM
Aren't most pet dogs vaccinated for rabies today - or they are supposed to be?

Yep...and therin lies the rub.

Aren't people driving down the road supposed to be licensed? Aren't they supposed to be sober? Aren't they supposed to be insured? Aren't they supposed to be in the country legally? Aren't they supposed to stop after causing an accident?

The answer to all of the above is actually YES.
However, with increasing regularity, the end result is NO.

Bottom line is:
Assume nothing, because we all know where assumptions get us.

One more thought:
It's not the odds, it's the stakes.

ActivShootr
January 14, 2009, 10:29 PM
I would rather take my chances with "discharging a firearm within city limits" than "getting mauled by an animal".

Socrates
January 14, 2009, 10:51 PM
I got a couple black belts eons ago. I've got a metal extending sap, and, I'm thinking about getting not only pepper spray, but bear spray. Bear spray gives you a long distance, relatively, effective sort of shotgun chance of hitting your problem. If he gets through that, a 20" steel heavy si would certainly give him an attitude adjustment. In Kali, a gun would be the LAST thing I'd have out...

csmsss
January 14, 2009, 10:56 PM
I got a couple black belts eons ago. I've got a metal extending sap, and, I'm thinking about getting not only pepper spray, but bear spray. Bear spray gives you a long distance, relatively, effective sort of shotgun chance of hitting your problem. If he gets through that, a 20" steel heavy si would certainly give him an attitude adjustment. In Kali, a gun would be the LAST thing I'd have out...Different states, different laws. In Texas, one can obtain a permit to carry a concealed firearm, but one cannot legally carry a baton, sap, club or other similar device under any circumstance.

dipper
January 14, 2009, 10:58 PM
Whats a "sap"??
I know what an "asp" is but not a sap.

csmsss
January 14, 2009, 11:05 PM
Whats a "sap"??
I know what an "asp" is but not a sap.A sap is an antiquated term, but is generally used to refer to portable slapping devices. Typically, a sap is made from stitched leather, and is flexible, with a handle on one end and a lead shot filled cavity at the other. You can cause quite a bit of damage to another human being if you hit him with the full force of a swung sap.

See also: blackjack, slapper.

Slapper:
http://www.d3protection.com/images/stslapper.jpg

Blackjack:
http://www.warbooks.com/Graphics/blackjack.jpg

dipper
January 14, 2009, 11:23 PM
Ah, I see!
Thanks csmss.

csmsss
January 14, 2009, 11:33 PM
You're very welcome!

My old man still has my great grandfather's blackjack. it doesn't look quite like the one in the picture above (the shot pocket is at an angle to the shaft of the handle), but it would probably still knock someone silly if they were unfortunate enough to get smacked behind the ear with it!

ljnowell
January 15, 2009, 12:21 AM
Easy, if you are close to your house, give it the SSS. Shoot, shovel, shutup.

Hook686
January 15, 2009, 05:23 AM
I wonder if folks know just how fast an aggressive dog can act. If the dog has already decided to attack you, or your pet, I doubt you will have much time to think about it, or react.

Take a look at this police video.

http://i35.tinypic.com/2nr08ck.gif

ZeSpectre
January 15, 2009, 11:41 AM
I wonder if folks know just how fast an aggressive dog can act. If the dog has already decided to attack you, or your pet, I doubt you will have much time to think about it, or react.

Yeah I have to agree. I posted my "dog test" (post #16) but I guess I can't blame folks for not understanding because I wouldn't have believed the results myself until I tried to move faster than my dog.

Socrates
January 15, 2009, 05:48 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Sai.svg/157px-Sai.svg.png

Think jogging weight, but, with one prong bent back, one forward, and the center knife a spring loaded, steel bar.

http://www.udap.com/video/Bear%20Attack.wmv
After watching this, it doesn't look like the bear is really attacking, just a tame bear, having a little jog, and swat the trainer.

http://www.udap.com/video/bearsprayed.wmv

This is a pretty good sized black bear...

http://www.udap.com/video/marksbearattackvideo.wmv

Point in posting these is I agree, that pepper spray has to be handy, and, you have to be able to get to it, nearly instantly, same as being attacked by a bear, having a gun, etc.
https://store.udap.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=P&Product_Code=3P&Category_Code=PS

RonC
January 15, 2009, 06:10 PM
In some of our local parks, coyotes were 'baiting' off-leash dogs. A single coyote would approach and attempt to draw the dog to follow it. If the dog did follow, there was a pack of coyotes around it in an instant - and the dog became lunch.

It's rare for a coyote to attack when the dog is near humans, but they are Wiley coyotes.

Also, many outdoor cats in the neighborhood have vanished, probably due to coyotes.

Ron

Chui
January 15, 2009, 07:39 PM
I wonder if folks know just how fast an aggressive dog can act. If the dog has already decided to attack you, or your pet, I doubt you will have much time to think about it, or react.

Yeah I have to agree. I posted my "dog test" (post #16) but I guess I can't blame folks for not understanding because I wouldn't have believed the results myself until I tried to move faster than my dog.

Yep. I'm very well aware. This is one of several reasons I advocate the working strain Pit Bulldog, American Bulldog, Airedale, Catahoula, Ridgeback breeds... ASSUMING one knows what the Hades these breeds are/for and what they (the owner) is doing.

To me a dog is a pet and a member of the family. However, he is also the FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE and is expendable under certain circumstances. Combating wildlife is one in which I demand that the dog IS PERFECTLY CAPABLE OF INTERCEPTING HARD! If one's breed of choice is not then stay out of the woods and nowadays out of the suburbs.

Socrates
January 15, 2009, 08:35 PM
Why do people forget Great Pyrenees
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyrenees
Sheep dogs who defend against bears...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EdNHI5inDM

TripIII
January 15, 2009, 10:35 PM
Have defended my shetland sheepdog on two separate occasions while CCW.

Fended off two boxers (local pets). One was agressive the other was not. The agressive one made repeated lunges at my dog with snapping jaws as it passed while I kept myself between him and the shelty. He was after my dog and I was able to discourage him with kicks until a neighbor who knew the dogs got them under control.

A neighborhood Akita (120+ lbs) and it's sidekick (little dog) charged us from the woodline. I again put myself between it and my dog. I was suprised at my own reaction on this one...by how calm I was. I controlled my dog with leash and voice commands, drew my .45, clicked the thumb safety and took aim. We calmly stood our ground. The ball was in the Akita's court. It assessed the situation, relaxed it's agressive posture, decided to circle us and then went home. Good dog, smart dog.

I would defend my animal with leathal force (or I better not go home). Size (of the dog) does matter. I would likely be charged with discharging a firearm within 500' of an occupied dwelling.

Hope this never happens.

I have no use for sprays or sticks.

sigman232
January 16, 2009, 10:17 PM
I'd like to make a point although someone may have already covered it....

Cops will not hesitate to shoot a threatening dog and are never questioned nor reprimanded. This IMO sets a precedent. Civilly speaking - Dogs are property. No one will cut me any sympathy if they do harm to my dog (maybe after court they'd pay for vet bills at best), and turnabout is fair play - their dog is simple property just the same. Of course my dog is much more than property to me. My dog is small and she is not about to take on any large threats, therefore if I have to terminate said threat to save my girl, its an easy decision - dog or coyote will face the same end. This is extreme of course and I love all animals so I would do anything I could to avoid a bad situation but we are talking extremes.

M3 Pilot
January 17, 2009, 01:34 AM
It's a coyote for goodness sake! Just kill the damned thing.

jesus5150
January 17, 2009, 01:57 AM
I have whippets (minature greyhounds, - http://stripduke.web-log.nl/photos/uncategorized/2008/08/16/twinkle2.jpg ------ and NO that's not me or my dog.) And they are the last thing from a dog with ANY fighting capability... It'll maul a rabbit like there is no tomorrow but anything else and it's doomed for sure. Here in spokane we have a HUGE problem with Pitbulls and the people that train them to fight and cant take care of the puppies.... At any given day you can pull up on "division street" and there will be someone selling them out of the back of a van or bronco.... I personally think they are stupid and worthless animals that should be shot on site unless they have owners that teach and control them (I.E. Leashes at all times, and high fences) But here in Spokanistan, they more or less run free. My mom was attacked once on the way to work (on foot) and so was my girlfriend (walking to school). So you Pit owners will have to excuse my negative bias. But i constantly see them roaming free and now i don't even walk my dogs because the way i see it, i'm going to run into one, it's a "when" issue not an "if" issue. And my dogs don't stand a chance, now i could let them go and i know they could outrun one. But i don't know if they're smart enough to run, and even if they were, there's always traffic and each of them cost about a grand so.... Also, Spokane is very "tree huggish" and i'm fairly certain that if i was forced to defend against a free roaming Pit, The media would portray it as a slaying of an innocent puppy by a crazy gun toting nut looking to fire off a few rounds... So now i just avoid it all at the cost of my own dogs health and happiness... I wish it weren't this way but people are NOT ok with guns in washington... My shirt came up and accidentally exposed my gun at walmart once when i tripped and everyone lost their minds!!! i was actually detained because someone told a clerk i was robbing the F*****G place.... so that's why i won't shoot a stray. I've been told that i've just been unlucky and that washington is really quite acceptant to firearms but i havent seen it...

RonC
January 17, 2009, 10:58 AM
An attack by coyotes on a woman walking her dog was reported in the Denver papers yesterday.
She saw what looked like two dogs coming over to play with her yellow lab in a Broomfield (a bedroom suburb north of Denver) park. One of them attacked her and bit her arm. Her 75 lb lab attacked one of the coyotes and drove them both off. Fortunately, the teeth didn't go through her thick coat and she suffered only bruises.
These urban/suburban/ex-urban coyotes are losing or have lost their fear of humans, making them much more dangerous.
My wife won't carry a gun but does carry high potency pepper spray while walking our Greyhound and Golden Retriever mix. Greyhounds were bred in some places to chase down coyotes and similar pests, but the current racing Greyhound has likely lost that inclination or capability.
I carry a Ruger SP101 stoked with 38 spl +p or a 1911 Commander when walking the dogs or hiking in the mountains with my family. Regardless of legal consequences, I will have no problem with shooting any animal that attacks. That is not to sound macho, but just a natural reaction to protect my family.
Ron

BUDLIGHT
January 17, 2009, 03:41 PM
Last week I was out walking my aussie shepherd, she is all about play and doesnt have a mean bone in her body. Two people on horseback were out with there Weimaraners (LOOSE) no leash at all, damn hounds were just running loose.
Now I have no problem with this, but damnit your dog better be trained and stay next to you and not just running loose and not listening to anything the owner tells it.

Here comes this dog running right at me, the owners yell one time to there dog to come back and then just flat out take off on there horses:eek:. The dog approaches fast and comes right at my dog, mouth open, I kicked that SOB as hard as I could in the chest (Danner FT Lewis boots). I then reached for my Strider DB and was ready to jam it in its head if it made another try at attacking my dog, lucky for that dog, it left after I had kicked it, Now when out for a short hike with my dog, I carry my Lamey 10 inch Bowie:D

Living in Cali and carrying a gun is a big no no:mad:, so I am limited to knives and walking sticks.

I will not hesitate if givin the chance, to kill any damn animal that is attacking my dog, my dog is part of my family (I like dogs more then most people lol)

CXMAN
January 20, 2009, 09:02 PM
Coyote attacks in the Denver metro area are a hot topic as of late as there have been a number of attacks including dogs being snatched right off their leash! I've heard several interviews on local talk radio and the response from DOW / LEO has been you cannot legally shoot the coyote inside the city limits. As I understand it, this is consistent for Denver and the surrounding suburbs, love to hear if anyone knows otherwise.

We routinely walk our dogs at a local dog park in Littleton, CO and have heard of several recent Coyote sightings from other folks at the park, no attacks here .. yet. This park happens to be within a State Park and portions are also "owned" by the Army Corp of Engineers. The bottom line from what I've been told .. don't even think about pulling your CCW or even so much as an Airsoft pistol (not that I think it would even slow a Coyote down if it was looking to eat). I'm wondering if anyone knows the local laws on Pepper Spray? Less than ideal of course ... but better than looking for a rock in a hurry.

As much as I love my dogs, I worry more when my 3 year old is with me ....

andrewskaggs
February 10, 2009, 11:01 AM
Yep. I'm very well aware. This is one of several reasons I advocate the working strain Pit Bulldog, American Bulldog, Airedale, Catahoula, Ridgeback breeds... ASSUMING one knows what the Hades these breeds are/for and what they (the owner) is doing.

To me a dog is a pet and a member of the family. However, he is also the FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE and is expendable under certain circumstances. Combating wildlife is one in which I demand that the dog IS PERFECTLY CAPABLE OF INTERCEPTING HARD! If one's breed of choice is not then stay out of the woods and nowadays out of the suburbs.

The wife and I were out walking our 2 6-month old German Shepherd/Catahoula mix puppies yesterday evening--a male and a female at 60 lbs and 50 lbs respectively (yes...yes...they're big, but they're still puppies). We were going along our normal route when I glanced over into a neighbor's backyard to see a large adult dog (some breed of bulldog...I'm not sure which) making a beeline to our position in what appeared to be an aggressive manner. Our dogs saw him about the same time we did and started going completely ape barking and growling at the charging dog. I quickly switched the leash to my off hand and swept back my cover garment with my other while yelling "Back!" in as loud and commanding a voice as I could. Just as my hand was coming to rest on the butt of my handgun in preparation for the draw, the dog pulled up and stopped his charge. The owner of the dog came running around the house and I dropped my cover garment back into place. He eventually got control of the dog and we went about our business.

Things I learned:

1. Dogs are ridiculously fast. Having spotted the dog from about 50 feet, I would barely have had time to draw and fire if my reaction time had been perfect.
2. My dogs can read the body language of another dog much better and quicker than I can. After seeing the dog charging, they immediately became hostile. They do not act this way around dogs that are not acting aggressively. I'll trust them more from now on.

Things I'll do differently next time:

1. Keep the leash in my off hand. Having to move the leash cost me time I don't have when there's a dog charging.
2. Do not hesitate to draw and take aim at a charging animal. You simply do not have time to second guess yourself against an animal that is as fast as dogs are.
3. If my dogs' posture and my verbal commands aren't enough to stop or significantly slow down the charging animal, it gets a faceful of JHP if he gets closer than 15 ft.

hogdogs
February 10, 2009, 11:06 AM
While not a gun toter, I am usually armed with a working style knife.
But if I am walking any one of the hunting dogs (especially the bulldogs for catch duty), they can pretty much fend for them selves:D. I just gotta stand off to the side so as to avoid bites on myself...
Brent

rotorhead41486
February 10, 2009, 11:55 AM
sounds like a good reason to carry a suppressed Ruger MkII :cool:

rickdavis81
February 13, 2009, 02:13 AM
This past summer I was walking my dogs, a husky and miniature grey hound at a park. Another lady was walking her big rottweiler. She stopped to talk to some people and dropped the rotts leash. It came towards my dogs and I, while it wasn't acting aggressive my husky is. I figured if it got to close and started growling it was going to take some lead in the head. I figure I'm being responsible and keeping my animals on a leash minding my own business and other people can't do the same they shouldn't be allowed to have pets. Same goes for strays and wild animals. They leave me alone, I'll leave them alone.

hecate
February 13, 2009, 05:04 PM
Greyhounds were bred in some places to chase down coyotes and similar pests, but the current racing Greyhound has likely lost that inclination or capability.Not hardly. I've done Greyhound rescue and adoption for over twenty years, and the 'yote hunters were always trying to get dogs from me. Around here (rural Nebraska) coyotes avoid anything resembling a Greyhound like the plague. I never have coyote problems around my property.

Friends who race Greyhounds and are active in adoption told me about their experience living near Los Angeles. Coyotes were getting into people's yards and killing small pets. One got into their yard. After their 90 pound retired male Greyhound got through with it, they were picking up pieces of Mr. Yote with the pooper scooper.

Socrates
February 14, 2009, 03:15 AM
Wonder what a Great Pyr would do to a coyote???

Thinking of moving, and, the area I want to move to has a Great Pyr rescue real close, and, I think I'd have plenty of room for him...

If you had mountain lions around, what kind of dog would you want to have in the yard???

troy_mclure
February 14, 2009, 03:21 PM
If you had mountain lions around, what kind of dog would you want to have in the yard???

a wolf hound, or mastiff.

BoulderTroll
February 15, 2009, 01:37 AM
It wouldn't take much at all to motivate me to shoot a mountain lion. I came across one just a few months back while walking in a forested ravine at night in an urban area. He was within 30 feet or so of me and if he'd turned in my direction instead of walking away I would have shot him for sure. As it was he and I both walked briskly away from each other. :D

Just a funny coyote story: We haver a couple coyotes in our neighborhood that we hear almost every night and see on an almost daily basis. Only two of them and they are often alone. One of them is a female and about 2 1/1 years old, the same age as one of my Belgian Malinois (I've got two Mals). When the female coyote and my female Malinois were both about a year old I was walking in a parking lot near out street when the coyote came up to within 20 feet of my pup. She started hopping sideways towards my dog in a playful way. I let my Mal off her leash and I've never seen two dogs run that fast in my life. :D My Mal chased her for about 10 minutes straight in a circle around the nearbye streets, catching the coyote twice.

When I called my pup back to me the coyote followed her and and layed down in the parking lot less than a car-length from where me and my dog stood. A lady who'd been driving by stopped and told me she thought it was two coyotes chasing each other until I called them back to me. lol The coyote's become pretty domesticated and a guy who lives on my street leaves food and a water bowl out for it.

Cruncher Block
February 16, 2009, 10:32 PM
I personally don't hold the "stopping power" of a handgun in high regard. That's even more true if an animal hasn't watched enough TV to know it's supposed to fall down when shot.

I would not expect an attacking canine to be terribly impressed with a round of anything between 9mm and .45 ACP. In the frenzy of a dog fight, I think a meaningful hit would be extremely difficult. If the dog is charging, fear and surprise will also make hits difficult.

Unfortunately, I don't know of many alternatives. I'm left with "try pepper spray first", "carry a walking stick", or "expect to empty the magazine".

Captainjack
February 16, 2009, 11:06 PM
Had one happen to me. Went to a friends house, worken on a car and drinken a few beers. Yes I'm redneck. Left my weapon home. There were six of us there and none of us noticed the pit bull till it attacked my friends dog, tied to a tree in his front yard. Three of us jumped on the pit with two by fours and pipes. With blows that would of killed any man, we only managed to **** the pit off. We were able to take refuge in a truck bed till the leo got there. When he arrived the pit turned it's aggression on him. Wrong move, four rounds later dead pit. After the drama I asked the leo if I would of been justified shooting the dog. His reply "hell yeah!"

youp
February 17, 2009, 07:05 AM
Wait until you all get some Timber Wolves. Now you have a federally protected animal with a track record of looking at your dog like the Sunday Buffet. They have eaten a couple around here. There was a guy with a bird dog that was being attacked by a Timber while he was HUNTING. Most hunters here just sort of chortled and shook their head over that one.

troy_mclure
February 17, 2009, 01:43 PM
in that case it would be sss.