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Redneck_Riot
January 12, 2009, 01:05 PM
Hey all I just wanted to share my personal story that happened to me a few years back and maybe learn a thing or two on whether my actions were justifiable and tacticaly sound.


I was fueling my truck late at night around 2:00 AM in downtown Tacoma Washington as I turned my back to swipe my card, I noticed a small group of folks gathered on the corner which was approximately 75 -100 feet accross the street from me. It made me nervous the way they were looking toward me and just as I was about to dismiss my suspicions that this was just an over-reaction on my part, two of the guys started walking toward me they were loud and one of them hollared "hey let me get a dollar man" I was immediately alarmed and placed my hand to my side directly above my holster and stated in a clear calm voice that I did not have any cash on me.

This did not detur them, and as they closed the distance to my location within 25 feet I made the choice to place my hand on my pistol and tell them that I did not have any money and to please allow me to finish pumping my gas. I immediately afterward realized with a strong gut feeling that they were indeed a threat and at that moment I drew my 45 and stated that if they came any closer that I would not hesitate to defend myself. As I was preparing to raise my pistol the 2 men stopped and of them shouted a few obsenities at me and told his buddy to just leave it be, "lets go man forget this fool" but instead the man resisted and started walking toward me, at that point he was within 10 feet I took aim and told him that I would fire. He called me a few names and turned around and departed .

This incident took place in a matter of approximately 30 seconds and I was nervous but confident in my choice to make presentation and escelate my actions. I believe that had I not been armed I would have become a victim.

neither of the men had a weapon that was visible and both were near 6 foot tall , average 200 lbs.

immediately after I drove off I called 911 and made a report of the incident

the follow up officer told me that there had been a rash of assault robberies in the surrounding area in question. I gave him a description of the 2 men but it was frustrating to me that I could not produce identifying features of the two would be asailants besides the obvious.

I told the officer that I did make presentation with my weapon and it luckily de-esculated the situation, I am to this day bothered by the thought that if I had been forced to fire my pistol in my percieved defense, would I have been justified by law in doing so? the fact that neither of the men had a weapon in my mind places serious doubt in my case of self defense, not to mention the anti-gun liberal tone in my area known as Seattle.

The officer would not advise me as to what I should have done, just told me to contact an attorney and ask for advice from them. Why is it that it is perfectly legal to obtain a concealed weapon permit, but the legal use of deadly force is not clearly outlined the same day it is issued?

in WA use of force is defined as reasonable, but my government will not clearly define the word "reasonable" it seems to me that I am in a catch 22 senario heres a permit to carry a gun, but you are on your own if you ever have to use it, but be assured that we will be there to arrest you when you do.

any helpful insights would be appreciated. I have made the choice to continue concealed carry but would be more comfortable if someone would inform me of the proper use.

I have since carried everywhere I go and feel more aware of my surroundings.

I also practice drawing and firing from a distance of 10-15 feet alot more routinely

my one concern that keeps playing in my head is what I would have done if either or both would have rushed me before I was able to produce my weapon.

what can I practice that will simulate this stress I was under to prepare me in the future ?

Thanks

Sparks2112
January 12, 2009, 01:09 PM
Once you introduce a firearm into a situation, whether or not you are the one who has introduced said firearm, a deadly weapon is present and it is a life or death situation.

If someone approaches you after you've drawn on them then they are doing so to disarm you and use your weapon against you. Act accordingly.

Just keep in mind there's an appeal process for a manslaughter conviction. No such process exists for being dead...

If you catch my drift.

Personally you did better than I would have. At 10 feet I'm pretty sure someone would have had holes in them.

Brian Pfleuger
January 12, 2009, 01:16 PM
The law does not require the BG to be armed. In fact, there is no mention of whether the aggressor is armed or not. It comes down to:

Ability
Opportunity
Reasonable Fear


You're pumping gas and two large guys approach asking for money and get belligerent and continue to approach when asked to leave (reasonable fear). You're outnumbered (ability, reasonable fear), your alone in the middle of the night and still outnumbered (opportunity, reasonable fear), their words and actions indicate intent (reasonable fear).

You are left with few choices.

what can I practice that will simulate this stress I was under to prepare me in the future ?

Go to bad neighborhoods alot. (no, please don't, I'm kidding)
Get some force on force training. It's expensive but worthwhile, so I'm told.

curt.45
January 12, 2009, 01:31 PM
you coulda pulled the filler hose out of the tank and hosed them down with gas, that might of turned them off.



and I could also be totally wrong.

as they say you left alive so you must have done something right.

Keltyke
January 12, 2009, 01:32 PM
You acted with considerable restraint. Probably more than I would have had.

At 15' I would have had one dead in my sights with a warning, "StopCome any closer and I will shoot you!" My prior warnings wouldn't have been as polite, either.

At 10' I'd probably dropped the hammer. It only takes a second for a man to cover 15' (one mini-van for reverence).

The only good gunfight is one where no shots are fired.

stephen426
January 12, 2009, 01:38 PM
Glad you made it out of the situation unharmed and without having to shoot anyone. I think you handled it as well as anyone could have. Good job on being aware too.

My advice is to not get gas in the bad parts of town, especially in the middle of the night. The best way to avoid conflict is to not be there in the first place. Had they been armed, it would have still been 2 to 1. Since you had not started pumping gas yet, you could have hit cancel and left immediately. I guess it was impossible to tell what was going to happen at that point.

The other thing I would offer is being more aggressive. I would have said something to the effect... "I said back the $#%@ up before I cap your @$$." or "Take one more step and it will be your last!". These guys understand agression and being more aggressive means you are a greater threat to them. I'm willing to bet they were testing your resolve when they continued appoaching after you drew your gun. By pointing it at them, you proved you were ready and willing to defend yourself.

One last thing to be aware of is making sure you weren't flanked. If those guys were distracting you and someone came up from behind, you would have had some serious problems. A friend of mine got whacked over the head and then beaten up pretty badly recently. Some people stopped to ask him for directions right after he got out of his car (at home) and someone hit him from behind. Its easy to get tunnel focus in these types of situations.

As for the legality issue, I'm not sure what Washington State law is. In Florida, there is no duty to retreat, even in public places. You did have the opportunity to get in your car and leave though. As for the two guys being a credible threat, I think disparat force could be easily argued. You could also claim that they appeared to be hiding a weapon.

All in all, you did just fine. You also did the right thing by calling the police. In the future, just fill up your tank anytime you get below a quarter tank to avoid these situations. :D

golfnutrlv
January 12, 2009, 01:41 PM
RednockRiot, read this book if you have not already. It is by Dave Workman of D&D Gunleather. Its specifically about WA state gun rights and responsibilities. He goes into a good discussion about use of force, requirements, etc.

Washington State Gun Rights And Responsibilities by Dave Workman
(http://www.saf.org/default.asp?btitle=&bauthor=workman&p=booklist)

The cost of this book is minimal, and well worth it.

Keltyke
January 12, 2009, 01:45 PM
The other thing I would offer is being more aggressive. I would have said something to the effect... "I said back the $#%@ up before I cap your @$$." or "Take one more step and it will be your last!".

Profanity or slang could work against you in court. Practice a "command voice".

My CWP instructor is a retired 25 year veteran of a local police force. While demonstrating proper response in a situation, he drew his weapon, pointed it at the imaginary BG and said, "Stop or I will shoot." I found myself looking for a chair to get under! Total dominance and control in his voice. I couldn't imagine disobeying him.

stephen426
January 12, 2009, 02:02 PM
Profanity or slang could work against you in court. Practice a "command voice".

My CWP instructor is a retired 25 year veteran of a local police force. While demonstrating proper response in a situation, he drew his weapon, pointed it at the imaginary BG and said, "Stop or I will shoot." I found myself looking for a chair to get under! Total dominance and control in his voice. I couldn't imagine disobeying him.


Good point. The idea is dominance. If that can be achieved without profanity, great. The problem is thugs tend to understand it better with some unsavory words. ;):p

Brian Pfleuger
January 12, 2009, 02:28 PM
These sorts of situation make me consider pepper spray for the weak hand. Standing there with both gives you a lot of options. 99% of everybody will decide they have better things to do after they ingest a little cayenne, if not, you've still got the bullets. Pulling the trigger is awfully final.

Bauer
January 12, 2009, 02:31 PM
stephen426:
My advice is to not get gas in the bad parts of town, especially in the middle of the night. The best way to avoid conflict is to not be there in the first place. Had they been armed, it would have still been 2 to 1. Since you had not started pumping gas yet, you could have hit cancel and left immediately. I guess it was impossible to tell what was going to happen at that point.
The problem with people is we ignore our basic instincts. I'm sure his first instinct was this is a bad situation and based on that feeling normal animals would leave the situation. We, for whatever reason, try to believe people are inherently good. In reality there is no telling what a random stranger can be classified as. That being said, I would stay out of Tacoma at 2:00 period. If you live there, stay home.

George PT-111
January 12, 2009, 03:09 PM
I think you did great, I would have done the same thing probably. Some people would argue on whether you were at threat and whether it was the right thing to do at that point.

I was at another forum, and when I mentioned that I thought that it was ok (I still think so) for a someone to draw the weapon to scare someone off (like you did) without shooting anyone. Every one in the forum was arguing w/ me and telling me that if you draw that means you are in the life and death situation and in that case you have to shoot. Basically they were saying that you can't just draw to scare some one off, you only draw when you have to fire. I don't agree.

I left that forum 'cause of that.
The truth is what is not a threat to one person it could be to another.

RainbowBob
January 12, 2009, 03:28 PM
Any helpful insights would be appreciated. I have made the choice to continue concealed carry but would be more comfortable if someone would inform me of the proper use...

...What can I practice that will simulate this stress I was under to prepare me in the future ?

Mr Riot:

First of all, let me say I think you did everything right. You didn't become a victim and nobody got shot.

But the questions remain, and I have the definitive answer for you if you are still in the area.

Click on the link below and sign up for the course "Personal Protection and the Use of Force". It is taught at The Marksman Range in Puyallup by a couple of very experienced LEOs. The course is designed to specifically answer the questions you have about the legal and practical use of force in WA State.

It also includes a session on the F.A.T.S. (video training simulator) that includes "after-incident" de-briefing (i.e., "What did you see? What did you do? Why did you do it? Would you do it differently?"). That alone is worth the price of admission ($99).

It is undoubtedly the best money I have ever spent in the furtherence of my self-defence capabilities. Seriously.

http://www.themarksman.net/personal_protection.php

oldkim
January 12, 2009, 03:33 PM
Just a tibbit from another post. Use of force is used in light of what the situation is.

They got way too close to you - 10 feet and you have about just over a second to react. Remember at 21 feet - it takes a guy about 2.1 seconds to get to you. In that time if you are not ready you can't even draw that fast. For you, you had your hand on your gun and ready.

I would say you did just fine and showed constraint. You're not going to get legal advice from a cop. They are not attorneys and they're not the one prosecuting you.

Just a note: most "CCW gear" emcompasses a gun, knive of some kind and a flashlight pretty much. At the point they were walking towards you from across the street besides giving the verbal commands you could of flashed a flashlight in their eyes.

Your using non-lethal force and your getting your point across not to mess with you. This also blinds them and disorients them - put the focus on not being able to see than messing with you.

If you don't have a good flashlight consider investing in a good CCW flashlight. Look for something 60+ lumens (not candlepower).

Lessons learned. After action review is something that is common now. Your basically doing now. Seeing what happened, what you did and what you can do in the future to better yourself.

GLP Standard
January 12, 2009, 03:34 PM
I'm not a cop or a lawyer, nor do I have my CCW (yet), and Ive never had to even draw down on someone. However, I have gone through a few different Use of Force classes and such, and I'm a civilian contracted Security Forces member for the USAF, so Ill take a few minutes to share my thoughts.

Going back to what I learned in North Carolina (as the PPSB Certified Instructors teach the Use of Force aspect of their classes), in order to have a justified shooting, you have to ask yourself 4 questions, and have the correct answer to them. The questions with the correct answer are as follows:

1. Was I or someone else in an imminent threat of serious bodily harm or death?
-YES

2. Would a person of ordinary firmness agree with my actions?
-YES

3. Was the amount of force used excessive?
-NO

4. Was I the aggressor or instigator who provoked the conflict?
-NO

The 1st one is a matter of your opinion. He never brandished a weapon, which would be a main concern I would have. However, there were more of them than you, and that right there is a good reason for someone to fear for their life. The 2nd one...well I guess read some of these posts in this thread and youll get your answer. The 3rd one you wouldnt know until after the shooting has ended. Just because you have 10 rounds in your magazine doesnt mean you can use all 10 rounds. The 4th one might worry me as well. You have to be able to justify your reasons for drawing down on the suspect. In a way, by brandishing a weapon and pointing it at him, you have escalated the conflict, which makes him the victim, not you. Can you really justify pulling a weapon out because a man approached you asking you if you had a dollar? Im sure it was more than that, and he may have wished death upon you, but a jury isnt so easy to convince. Think about that for a minute, and then ask yourself if you could really justify your actions. He didnt have a weapon (that you knew of) so how can you really prove to a jury of 12 (especially if you get some anti-gun nuts on there) that you were not the aggressor?


Lets look at this from another aspect of Use of Force training from a completely different entity...
At my current job (for the Air Force) we are taught that in order for a shooting to be justified, the suspect has to show three things:
1. Motive
2. Opportunity
3. Capability

The first one, motive...can you prove he had motive to cause you serious bodily harm or death? Well, I think yes, if what you say is true. He was with a large group of guys, and they were approaching you asking about money, and he did not back off when you advised him you did not have any. Sounds like he had motive to rob you. Good luck proving it once again, but thats what it sounds like to me. Opportunity: Well, he was getting a little too close to you. I would say that 15 feet away gives someone PLENTY of opportunity to harm if you they so desire. I think youre good there. Its not like you shot him from 100 feet away when he had nothing but a baseball bat in his hand. The last one...capability: This goes back to the fact that he had no apparent weapon. Unless you were a 5'2" woman, 100lbs soaking wet, and he was a 6'5" 350lbs man, proving that he had the capability to cause you serious bodily harm or death would be mighty hard knowing that he didnt have a weapon. The only thing that might save you in that aspect is the fact that there were more of them than there were of you. You were seriously outnumbered, and if they wanted to, they could have beat you to death.

FWIW, thats my opinion based on what training Ive had, albeit very small compared to what Police Officers go through. Take it for what it is, and I think you did just fine. The important thing is that no one got hurt, and you got to go home to your family.

RainbowBob
January 12, 2009, 03:39 PM
...if you draw that means you are in the life and death situation and in that case you have to shoot...

George:

As you realized, that statement is utter nonsense.

The truth is that if you draw a firearm, that means you are in a life-or-death situation and must be WILLING and ABLE to shoot - IF NECESSARY.

Most often (according to studies by Kleck, et al), it is NOT necessary to discharge your weapon to end the threat. Once the threat is ended, you MUST NOT shoot.

BIG difference.

George PT-111
January 12, 2009, 03:42 PM
Yes Bob, thats how I feel too. Willing doesn't mean you have to. The argument was that, I would rather scare the BG off, rather be waiting for the last minute and shoot.

PDXGS
January 12, 2009, 07:07 PM
Being outnumbered puts you in an immediate disadvantage and can trump the "intent" and "motive" bit of "motive+means+intent" .
Never forget the cardinal rules of ratonalizing your actions after the fact to the authorities...if you waive your right to remain silent..

-"I feared for my life"
-"I did what I did to neutralize/stop the threat"

My question to you is-once that you noticed the youths/yutes, could you have stopped pumping gas and left?
Once you perceive the possible threat- it's in your best interests to immediate consider them an actual threat and do what you can to remove yourself from the situation before it escalates into a more obvious situation. Trust our inner voice and act accordingly. When alone, paranoia becomes a survival mechanism rather than a hindrance to socializing...
Just my $.02.
Cheers,
Jorge

Dwight55
January 12, 2009, 07:44 PM
You went home, . . . safe, . . .

Mission accomplished. :D

May God bless,
Dwight

Naterstein
January 12, 2009, 08:14 PM
I have yet to be in a situation as described and I am happy that I have not. I think you did okay; however I think I would have given a few more warnings about having a gun before they got that close, but thats just me and I wasnt there, so who really knows.


Before I got my CCW I had a few incidents that pretty much pushed me into getting it, both of which happened in Homestead FL while on a delivery during the daylight hours.

1. I was preparing to deliver goods to a customer in an enclosed yard when a disheveled lady approached me asking for money. I calmly and politely told her that I dont carry any cash, which was true at that time. She scoffed and went off to bother one of my customer's customers.

2. Shortly after that first incident I was on my way out of Homestead, when another poor looking lady, jumped on the passenger side running board of my truck while I was stopped and asked for money. I shook my head and she left me alone.

After those incidents, I quickly scheduled a CCW class at the nearest gun range. Never had any incidents after this, so far. Scariest part for me, was realizing that I had parked all night outside that customer's property to sleep and potentially could have been robbed or assaulted.

orionengnr
January 12, 2009, 08:37 PM
These sorts of situation make me consider pepper spray for the weak hand.
You know, I used to think the same way...until I realized that pepper spray is only good at 5-10 feet, and if they are a true threat, that is waaaay too close.
They got way too close to you - 10 feet and you have about just over a second to react. Remember at 21 feet - it takes a guy about 2.1 seconds to get to you.
No. Football players run a 4 second 40 yard. Ten yards (30 feet) = one second. Twenty-one feet would be well under one second. Not every attacker is a pro football player, but many/most are young and in decent shape. (Google or Wiki: Teuller Drill).
Then think again about pepper spray and 10 feet...

Do not underestimate your potential adversary.

Bottom line--you did just fine. If the fuel was already flowing, I might have thought about giving them a quick gasoline dousing (nozzle in left hand, .45 in right) probably better range and better "pattern" than the pepper spray, arguably more effective/intimidating, and only $1.50 per gallon. Might make identifying the suspect easier too... "Yes, officer, four young males, left in a black Explorer, two of them smell like gasoline; the inside of the vehicle, likewise. Hope none of them is a smoker..."

Lee Lapin
January 12, 2009, 08:48 PM
"A superior gunman is best defined as one who uses his superior judgment in order to keep himself out of situations that would require the use of his superior skills."

I'd say you worked it out pretty well, no one got hurt. But your experience was pretty illustrative of the fact that modern street hoods often show no fear of firearms- they've often been shot, shot at, and threatened before, often many times, and they just aren't as afraid of a gun as a lot of people think they should be.

Try talking to the best criminal defense attorney you can find in your jurisdiction. I've found a good way to pick one, I think- call the local bail bondsmen and ask who they would use if they got in a jam. Set up an appointment with the suggested attorney, have a chat, ask your questions, and keep his or her card in your wallet for future reference. Most of the time, first consults are free. And it's worth an hour's charge to know what you need to know, IMHO, if you get billed for the time.

You need to have your questions clearly answered, because you don't need to have to struggle with the 'can I/can't I' stuff when something is happening on the street, in your home or wherever. In other words, you don't need to have to worry about Problem Two (potential legal issues) when Problem One (an impending gunfight) is staring you in the face. You need to be able to focus on Problem One exclusively.

The best training I have had in legal issues and self defense so far was Skip Gochenour's two-hour lecture, the notes to which can be found at http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm . You're missing the details, the slides and a lot of other stuff, but the notes are very good and to the point.

I especially commend to you the ADEE model Skip puts forth. The AOJ (ability, opportunity, jeopardy) model is better suited to sworn LEOs who have the duty to confront a threat. As an armed citizen you have no such duty, and your better course of action is ADEE- avoid, de-escalate/disengage, escape and evade if possible.

In another study session, Skip put forward the following line of thinking:

YOU MAY BE WHATEVER YOU RESOLVE TO BE

YOU HAVE RESOLVED TO BE THE ULTIMATE MORAL ARBITER!

YOU HAVE TAKEN IT UPON YOURSELF TO BE ABLE TO LOOK AT A SET OF RAPIDLY EVOLVING FACTS AND CIRCUMSTANCES AND DECIDE THAT THEY MEAN SOMEONE SHOULD HAVE LETHAL FORCE USED ON THEM AND YOU NEED TO DO IT.

As a person who carries weapons about in society you have decided that you are a moral arbiter.

You are obliged to prepare yourself physically, mentally, emotionally and morally for the role as a moral arbiter.
You are obliged to train your body, mind and spirit for your role as moral arbiter.
Failure to accept and exercise these obligations is an exercise in immorality. It is a failure of discipline and self-control. - http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2007/02_StudyDay.htm

No matter what the legal system ultimately says about your decision to employ deadly force in defense of yourself and others, it is that other word- MORAL- that keeps coming to the fore in my mind. Is that the right thing to do, right there, right then? Are there other options available to you that mean you don't have to shoot at someone right there, right then?

IMHO the important thing is to have all this mental jumble settled enough in your own mind in advance. You need to know what is right for you to do within your own moral code, and you should have a reasonable certainty that your actions are legally necessary under the prevailing circumstances as well. You need to be able to understand as you press the trigger and concentrate on the front sight all the reasons why that was the only option you had right then, right there. And you need to be able to clearly enunciate those reasons ten minutes later when the cops show up, two days later when the DA asks you why, and if necessary two months after that when you are in court.

But the biggest thing is to get all the Problem Two worries taken care of well in advance, so you don't have to dither over them while you are trying to sort out Problem One.

And don't forget to check your six, either...

Stay Safe,

lpl

supergas452M
January 13, 2009, 01:03 AM
And you need to be able to clearly enunciate those reasons ten minutes later when the cops show up,

No, you tell the cops nothing except "I feared for my life, I want to cooperate and will when I have my lawyer." PERIOD.

FireForged
January 13, 2009, 01:52 PM
Disclaimer:: I am no lawyer and this is not legal advice...

IMO and speaking just for myself. My first impression is that if someone refuses to follow reasonable commands at gunpoint, they must have very bad intentions.

Brian Pfleuger
January 13, 2009, 02:18 PM
You know, I used to think the same way...until I realized that pepper spray is only good at 5-10 feet, and if they are a true threat, that is waaaay too close.

That's true but I there are at least two things about this particular situation:

1) They did approach within 10 feet. I think the goods brands of pepper spray claim 30 feet or more range. I don't know if that's truth in advertising or not.

2) In the absence of clear aggression and no obvious weapons, simply approaching within feet and yelling nasty things could make a SD shoot a hard sell. I'm not saying it would be wrong but it might be tough to not get charged. Continued warnings while they approach and a blast of pepper spray may make a difference in the "I did all I could to avoid shooting him" argument. Anything to make the case that you tried to do as much as possible to not shoot someone is good.

OldMarksman
January 13, 2009, 03:27 PM
If anyone happened to page down past Lee Lapin's post 22, I strongly recommend reading it carefully. I've bookmarked the link he posted to the teddytactical course.

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm

I had not seen that before. I can assure you that I will be stdying it.

Here's another link that I find helpful:

http://www.useofforce.us/

In this one, the author takes the principles of ability, opportunity, and jeopardy and adds preclusion: the principle that the actor may not resort to deadly force unless he has no other option reasonably available.

That's leads directly to Skip Gochenour's ADEE- avoid, de-escalate/disengage, escape and evade if possible. That was taught in my CCW course. As Lee says, unless you are sworn to enforce the law, that's always your better course. And unless your state has a stand-your-ground law or your actions are covered by a castle law, it is your legal obligation to do so (unless there are extenuating circumstances) for a defense of justifiability to have much chance of succeeding.

Here's another good one written for defense attorneys:

http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/01c1e7698280d20385256d0b00789923/f587d7d10c34fff2852572b90069bc3c?OpenDocument&Click=

The author also refers to the concept of preclusion when the actions involve civilians.

I strongly recommend that people bookmark and study these materials.

In Lee's post I've found something I really like: "A superior gunman is best defined as one who uses his superior judgment in order to keep himself out of situations that would require the use of his superior skills."

I always try to avoid refueling in questionable places or when there are few people around.

B.N.Real
January 14, 2009, 07:13 AM
Three bad guys and you caused all of them to realize you were going to be someone they had to EARN their rewards from.

Criminals are by and large lazy assed people.

If they think they will have to work to get your money,they will go elsewhere.

Very glad you did'nt have to shoot them.

As far as pepper spray goes,in this case,that would have likely only caused one of them,if they had it,to draw a handgun on you.

And most pepper sprays only work up to fifteen feet on a windless day.

Add wind and the range can get to where you are spraying you and the bad guy(s).

I'm looking into pepper foam for non lethal defense.

You did exactly right.

One more step from the bad guy and I'm sure you would have put him down.

Wagonman
January 14, 2009, 01:06 PM
You done good, good SA good reactions, the best thing you did was call the police afterward.----get the correct version on the record. " We just asked this guy for directions and he pulled a gun on us"

+1 on Supergas advice DO NOT TALK TO POLICE AFTER A SHOOTING W/O A LAWYER!!

Dorcas
January 20, 2009, 06:12 PM
RednockRiot, read this book if you have not already. It is by Dave Workman of D&D Gunleather. Its specifically about WA state gun rights and responsibilities. He goes into a good discussion about use of force, requirements, etc.

Washington State Gun Rights And Responsibilities by Dave Workman


The cost of this book is minimal, and well worth it.

That's a big +1. This book should be requried reading for anyone with a WA CPL.

PhoenixConflagration
January 20, 2009, 06:52 PM
Basically they were saying that you can't just draw to scare some one off, you only draw when you have to fire. I don't agree.

In Fl, as I was taught in the class, in order to draw your weapon legally, you must have the same justification as you need to actually shoot them. I interpret this to mean that, while scaring off an aggressor is better than having to shoot them, you can't do so unless your threatened with death/bodily harm, etc.

The OP did just great. By all means scare off an aggressor. Just don't think you can get away with that easier than actually using lethal force. You will be charged if you don't have the same justifications required to shoot.

Only S&W and Me
January 20, 2009, 07:30 PM
What I want to understand is if you draw on someone for a good reason because you felt the life threat, why would this be an issue....what is the BG going to do, call the cops on you? Highly unlikely..... and go ahead and let him!

KUHIO
January 20, 2009, 08:15 PM
I think you handle yourself very well!

The ONE thing I would add is to tell the BG/s that you will call 911 (and certainly CALL if you're able).

"Can't help you... stop, I don't know you... I'm going to call 911"

And this can be done while preparing to draw your weapon. I know this is easy to forget in the heat of a moment, but it could really help in showing you've all exhausted your options in the event you face litigation.

Redneck_Riot
January 22, 2009, 02:47 AM
Thank you all for your great comments and insights, this situation is one I do not wish to physicaly revisit it was very un-nerving and though I feel that my actions were indeed justified I cannot help but second guess those actions especially when the legal consequences are weighed into the equation.

I have since posting signed up for a local use of force class, and have obtained a copy of Dave Workman's book. This is truly good information, and is first rate. The suggestion to speak with a good reccommended criminal defence attorney was a great addition and I will be definately scheduling an appointment. I do still feel that my government needs to clarify the use of force guideline before issuing a CCW it is quite close to en-trapment to issue such a licence without the proper information in its use being stated.

Powderman
January 22, 2009, 09:09 AM
Redneck Riot:

Where was this gas station?

Just curious, might have some insight for you.

Redneck_Riot
January 22, 2009, 01:04 PM
downtown tacoma, near the pierce county jail I was doing some work inside the jail on the night shift

Socrates
January 22, 2009, 02:43 PM
RR:

The problem is you have to convince 12 jurors, in one of the safest places in the world, a court room, or deliberation room, that are well fed, warm and cozy, about the situation you found yourself in, and, the threat of those 3 nice men, perfectly shaved, in beautiful suits, that are the defendants, or witnesses...

You have no evidence, other then your word, of what happened. I went through this thread, and, it sounded to me that the Devil was there, and, his friends, drugs and alcohol. I have watched sober people go insane when we had handcuffs on them, but, it's not as common as with the Devils friends present. I suppose the dead body could testify, when they find .29 alcohol, and high as a kite on meth, and, it sounds to me like that's what you were dealing with.

That said, it's hard to get jurors to feel the terror of being surrounded by
large, drunk or high large men, in a comfy courtroom.

Orion has a good point on the pepper spray limit. I know if I'm fueling my car at 2 am, I have pepper spray, but, if I was in a bad area, I might have a can of bear spray as well.

Your thread reminds me of the same problem I was facing in Oakland, going into an area that was semi-rioting, and, what if you get caught in it, as a target? The riot is about a white officer shooting a helpless black man on the ground. Can you imagine the press if you started shooting rioters that are throwing rocks at you and your car?

No easy answers for this one, but, a non-permanent form of protection comes to mind. Taser comes to mind for the simple reason you could hit one guy, pull the gun as well.

If it had been me, I would have dumped the gas, jumped in the truck, and took off, if I could make it, that is...

doc540
January 22, 2009, 04:51 PM
Might not have been a bad idea when the two began advancing across the street toward you to have raised your cellphone to your ear, speed-dialed 911, and said loudly, "STAY BACK, I HAVE CALLED THE POLICE!" and proceeded to give the dispatcher your location and a play-by-play.

And all of this while you kept a hand on your weapon until it became necessary to drop the phone and draw it.

Just a thought.

I deterred a road rager by doing something similar with my phone.

scorpion_tyr
January 22, 2009, 07:07 PM
You were approached by suspicious people, and more than one of them. They made it obvious that they weren't there to help you, so that only leaves the option that they were up to no good.

There were more than one of them. I've always considered multiple BG's as a threat to my life. One person can be bad enough. Two is double the trouble. They can take you down, disarm you, and defeat any resistance you put up, a lot easier.

You were justified in putting your hand on your weapon. That should have stopped them in their tracks. They didn't so you drew, again justified.

It is my belief that once a deadly weapon has been added to the situation, either by the BG or the Good Guy, any escalation of the situation should be considered lethal force.

If I have my weapon in a visible holster, I make a concealed holster visible, or I draw my weapon to make it even more visible, especially if I take aim at the BG(s), and they keep coming (escalating the situation) I can only assume they mean to do me great bodily harm or worse. The very least they will attempt to do will be to disarm me. Now they have a gun, and lethal force would certainly be justified, except I have to get to my BUG, and that's if I have one.

You gave plenty of verbal warnings. They ignored you, so by now there is no doubt that they are up to no good.

I'm assuming by your post that you never took aim at the BG. Even if you had, IMO, you would have been justified.

If I draw my weapon, take aim, and the BG is still coming, I'll pull the trigger. If he has a weapon I'll probably pull the trigger a little sooner, but I'll still do it. I'd be willing to risk the legal stuff to keep myself alive. I don't want my kids to get to know their father through a plexi-glass window, but I would rather have that then them not have me at all.

All of this is just my opinion, not meant to be any form of legal advise.

hecate
January 22, 2009, 07:21 PM
LawOfficer.com has a lot of very good articles available online. From Understanding the Objectively Reasonable Standard - Self Defense (http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-articles/articles/understanding_objectively_reasonable_standard_self-defense.html):

Then there is the well-settled issue of self defense . Every person has an absolute right to self-defense. In the case at hand, the two police officers had not surrendered their individual right to self defense as a consequence of their professional occupation. The rules of self defense are clear:


One need not be harmed before acting.
One need not calculate and prioritize a hierarchy of alternatives.
One need not determine the underlying intent, apparent motivation or potential impairment of the attacker.
And if you are a law enforcement officer engaged in legitimate police activities, you need not retreat from your duty or endure unreasonable risks to your safety.

You don't have to be in a "bad neighborhood" to have something happen when it's late. I had an unpleasant experience one night at a well-lit gas station in a "nice" area. It went to firing-grip-on-concealed-gun-in-holster-out-of-bad-guy's-view before he had second thoughts about his choice of a potential victim and left.

stephen426
January 23, 2009, 01:58 PM
Might not have been a bad idea when the two began advancing across the street toward you to have raised your cellphone to your ear, speed-dialed 911, and said loudly, "STAY BACK, I HAVE CALLED THE POLICE!" and proceeded to give the dispatcher your location and a play-by-play.

And all of this while you kept a hand on your weapon until it became necessary to drop the phone and draw it.

Just a thought.

I deterred a road rager by doing something similar with my phone.

doc540,

I'm sorry, but if a handgun fails to deter these guys, do you really think a cell phone will do anything? What is the best response time in your neighborhood? I live in South Florida and my office is in Coral Gables. That is one of the nicest parts of Miami. Police response time is very fast there and they usually respond in less than 5 minutes (even non-emergencies). I doubt that Redneck_Riot would want to tango with those guys for 5 minutes or even 1 minute. They could have easily beat or killed him and robbed him before the cops ever showed up.

Whe it comes to a potentially life or death situation, you respond with the level of force that is necessary to end the attack and save your life. I'm glad that Redneck_Riot didn't have to shoot anyone that night, but his actions did prevent a crime, and possibly saved his life. Save the cell phone to call 911 afterwards.

oldkim
January 23, 2009, 02:50 PM
Quoted from Redneck Riot.... "I have since posting signed up for a local use of force class, and have obtained a copy of Dave Workman's book. This is truly good information, and is first rate. The suggestion to speak with a good reccommended criminal defence attorney was a great addition and I will be definately scheduling an appointment. I do still feel that my government needs to clarify the use of force guideline before issuing a CCW it is quite close to en-trapment to issue such a licence without the proper information in its use being stated."

Totally Disagree: :eek:
I have to disagree that Washington has to mandate you to take a course before issuing a CCW. You as the carrier need to take some responsibility and find out what the laws are. We don't need more laws, especially for the law abiding good folks in Washington. We do need to enforce the laws for the ones that don't follow them.


I'm glad you had this event happen to wake you up and see that you do need more work to understand the true legalities of carrying a gun. It's not play time. It's real life and just like life.... for a action there is a reaction or responsibility that comes with it.

CCW should not be taken lightly and you really do need to figure things out before you commit to such a responsibility.

Heck, I say that with being a parent. Kids do not come with "manuals" either but you see all these idiots having kids.

Take the class, read Dave Workman's book (I have a signed copy). He has great info!

You did good. You were placed in a tough situation and you reacted. Hindsight? My best response to that is... would you have gotten gas there in the first place?

You can't avoid everything but you can control what you do (to a limited degree). Learn from this and move on.

Bottomline: No one got hurt. You know that simply having a CCW means much more. Be more vocal and assert yourself and remember using your pistol is the last resort but when you have to use it - use it.

Remember that guy at the Tacoma Mall shooting a few years ago. He had his gun out and re-holstered for this punk that was shooting people with his AK. He ended up getting shot himself and in a wheelchair now.

Socrates
January 23, 2009, 03:47 PM
I can't help but see the irony here. One of the problems with our society being unarmed is it forces law abiding citizens to restrict their travel rights. Can't go there, because you aren't armed, and, it's likely the bad guys aren't going to follow the CCW laws.

Now, even if you have a CCW, we fear for legal repercussions, again costing us OUR freedom to legally travel, through or to places, and, limits our time line in which to do it.

At some point, wouldn't it be nice if the CROOKS, ROBBERS, AND BAD GUYS, had to fear being shot, and, that would keep them away from places, rather then law abiding citizens?

NAKing
January 23, 2009, 04:11 PM
Has anybody here actually been hit with commercially available pepper spray? I have been. No, I wasn't stealing a little old ladies purse or doing anything nefarious. Anyway, the stuff really doesn't do a very good job. I'd never carry any.

Socrates
January 23, 2009, 05:23 PM
Wonder if bear spray would be better? Perhaps the very fact you are carrying something else, other then deadly force, might be a good point in court, when you are trying to convince those 12 liberal jury members that you aren't a gun nut...

OuTcAsT
January 24, 2009, 11:14 AM
I was in a similar circumstance just last weekend, picked up my girlfrend from her apt. to go to dinner. We stopped at the corner store so she could go in for a pack of smokes, I was parked 20-25 feet before the door, waiting in the car.
Just as she goes in, two scruffy looking guys, who are obviously together, come out of the store, one stops just to the right of the exit door and leans against the wall, (this puts him between my vehicle and my soon to be exiting GF) His partner walks behind my car, and leans against the wall at the corner of the building just beyond a soda machine, but still partially in my view using my mirror.

"This is bad juju" I think to myself, and I draw my weapon and lay it in my lap. The one by the exit begins to approach my window, explaining that he and his friend "need beer money", then the training kicks in... I pointed my weapon at him and told him to stop where he was, he complied and put his hands up, I then told him to move away toward the street, and have his partner do the same, he yelled to his buddy to "Run" and they both ran/staggered away toward the street. About 10 seconds later a police car pulls up...(GF had seen my drawn weapon and called 911 from inside the store on cell) I (carefully) secured my weapon, laid it on my seat, put my hands on the dash, and waited for the officer to come over and ask me to exit the vehicle. I did so, and explained the situation as it had happened. Another patrol car pulls up and I am asked to identify the two men in the back seat, it was the two "scruffy" guys. Seems they had stolen a purse from a lady at the gas station across the street just before I pulled up. They go to jail, and the officers and I talk 1911's for a few minutes. hope I never have to do that again. Point is...Situational awareness is your most important weapon.

#18indycolts
January 24, 2009, 11:35 AM
quote:About 10 seconds later a police car pulls up...

thats super quick for police to arrive...just curious, U stated the 2 guys were acting suspicious, but at what point did you feel your life was threatened? When he approached your car to ask u for money? Having your gun drawn is one thing, but having it aimed at him is another, don't ya think?

OuTcAsT
January 24, 2009, 12:18 PM
quote:About 10 seconds later a police car pulls up...

thats super quick for police to arrive..

Just to clarify a bit, the street I was on is the main street in this town, and the police precinct is less than 2 miles away, you also might note this...

...(GF had seen my drawn weapon and called 911 from inside the store on cell)

and this...

Seems they had stolen a purse from a lady at the gas station across the street just before I pulled up.

They were already in route to the other call, and had been given a description of the guys on the phone by the people across the street.

U stated the 2 guys were acting suspicious, but at what point did you feel your life was threatened? When he approached your car to ask u for money?

OK put yourself in my shoes, GF goes into store, two "suspicious" guys come out, one stops by the door, the other makes an attempt to (IMO) "Hide" from me behind a soda machine. This could be an attempt to "flank" me, suspicious enough for me to place my weapon in my lap and keep an eye out. Next, the guy by the door starts in my obvious direction, could he be the "distraction" while the other guy tries to catch me by surprise? Then figure in the GF who will be exiting the store BETWEEN the two guys, and with no knowledge that they are there. The math in my head said it was time to take action. either of us could have been a target, and I saw 2 threats and reacted.

Having your gun drawn is one thing, but having it aimed at him is another, don't ya think?

Absolutely! But with 2 threats..one in front, and one behind, I was not going to simply yell at him, I felt that either Me or my GF was going to be a target, turns out I was likely right. The police thought I had reacted correctly.

Could it have been handled differently? possibly, but you don't have the luxury of time when things are un-folding in seconds, you either react, or you don't.

#18indycolts
January 24, 2009, 12:25 PM
I wasn't giving you flack, just wanted some clarification, thats all. I'm not familiar with TN laws, but here in Indpls if someone wants to press charges on me for pointing my gun at them when I can't prove that my life was in danger (my word against the BG) then I could go to court and lose my CCP and probably have some sort of "assault" charge on my virgin clean record. I think u what u did was fine, I'd do the same for my wife..just not pointed it at him thats all.

OuTcAsT
January 24, 2009, 01:21 PM
just not pointed it at him thats all

Fair enough, had I been outside the vehicle I probably would have drawn and stayed at "low ready" while telling him to back off, but I was inside, he, nor his partner could see my firearm in my lap. My thought was to let the guy in front KNOW I was not merely suggesting that he shove off.

TN law could have allowed him, or LE to press ADW charges, but that was the last thing I was worried about at the moment.

I have anaylized this to death this week, and just can't seem to find a different way to have handled it. I did not have time or distance on my side to exit the vehicle, May have pointed too quickly, but I just don't see another way.

GF should definately quit smoking..:D