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scoutleader
January 11, 2009, 10:51 PM
All,
One of the few times that I was not ready I had 4 young males jump my 6 foot privacy fence. I had to work most of the night Friday evening and early Saturday morning. I took about an hour and a half nap, I was wakened by my wife to hear that we had 4 young males running through the backyard. I looked out the window to see the last two hop up and over my privacy fence.

Well in a half sleepy daze I grabbed a pair of shoes and told the wife to call the police (not 911). I got to about 10 foot from the back fence and could see the males on the other side. I realized at that time I was unarmed and a bit nervous. I was standing near my wood pile and remembered I had left my small 10 pound mallet on top if the wood pile. I grabbed the mallet and hear my wife whistle for me.

I turn around to see her holding her 20 ga. for me to come a get. That is when I hear the idiots jumping back on the fence. I turn around and get to the fence as two of them are trying to get over the fence. I see two sets of hands and use the only thing I have at the time, the mallet.

I hit the first hand hard, he drops and starts yelling, the second sets keeps hanging on the fence as his buddy is trying to get up. So I figure he wants what his buddy got, and I am more than happy to give it to him. Well I guess they figure it was not safe to cross back over and they haul on through the next yard.

By the time I got back to the house I had a cop pulling up in the yard. Told him what happened and that with the odds of 4 to 1 I was out numbered and did what I had to do to keep them from entering the yard. He said they committed a class A felony and if he could find them I could press charges. I told him that two of them should be pretty easy to find, they would have a sore right hand.
I know I should have not smacked them with the mallet but I was tired and **** that they would do this at 3 in the afternoon. I know if they did catch them nothing would have been done and maybe they might come back to get revenge. I am just ****** at what this city has turned into and can not wait till I can get out of it. Thanks for the rant.

hogdogs
January 11, 2009, 10:59 PM
Reminded me of the ol' cheech and chong skit and the judge in it saying "Bailiff, WHACK HIS PEEPEE!":D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-OkxEItgWY
Brent

onthejon55
January 12, 2009, 12:00 AM
Sound like a bunch of kids just messing around jumping fences. I bet they find a new hobby real fast though :D

Another reason keeping pepper spray around is a good idea

KLRANGL
January 12, 2009, 12:46 AM
trespassing is a class A felony in TN?

BuckHammer
January 12, 2009, 01:12 AM
That was a good way to resolve a situation that could have turned out much worse. Plus, like you said, you provided a good way for at least a couple of them to be identified. If they find them soon, they'll pretty well get caught red-handed:D. Or black and blue handed, depending on the way the bruises/broken bones (maybe) develop.

Smallgame2100
January 12, 2009, 01:28 AM
I woulda done the same thing, except I woulda thrown something, even my phone if I had to.

I wouldnt let them go with just a sore right hand. ;)

Sixer
January 12, 2009, 01:42 AM
Boys will be boys...

Doesnt sound like the posed a serious threat, probably just messing around. I bet they they won't be messing around in YOUR yard any more! :)

Double Naught Spy
January 12, 2009, 04:06 AM
trespassing is a class A felony in TN?

That does seem a bit extreme... I thought criminal trespass was a lowly Class C Misdemeanor and can be punished by a fine or a sentence of up to 30 days in jail. Class A felonies (Not less than fifteen (15) nor more than sixty (60) years in prison. In addition, the jury may assess a fine not to exceed fifty thousand dollars ($50,000), unless otherwise provided by statute) are the second most serious felonies with only capital crimes being higher.

That is when I hear the idiots jumping back on the fence. I turn around and get to the fence as two of them are trying to get over the fence. I see two sets of hands and use the only thing I have at the time, the mallet.

I hit the first hand hard, he drops and starts yelling, the second sets keeps hanging on the fence as his buddy is trying to get up. So I figure he wants what his buddy got, and I am more than happy to give it to him.

You can hit people with a mallet for trespassing in TN?

Dallas Jack
January 12, 2009, 04:29 AM
I hit the first hand hard, he drops and starts yelling, the second sets keeps hanging on the fence as his buddy is trying to get up. So I figure he wants what his buddy got, and I am more than happy to give it to him. Well I guess they figure it was not safe to cross back over and they haul on through the next yard.

Don't know why but I could not quit laughing at this. I had a picture in my mind of a line of hands and a guy just bopping away at them. Sounds like you had just the right tool for the job.
Dallas Jack

Gazdik
January 12, 2009, 04:58 AM
Sounds to me that if one of the kids came over the fence and you took the mallet to them, you would be the one in jail. I know I would be mad if it was my yard but at 4 to 1 odds sometimes you have to consider the aftermath of your own actions...Don't get me wrong what you did would more than likely been my first reaction to..Like you said, it's just a shame what some areas have become...

Keltyke
January 12, 2009, 07:09 AM
I know I would be mad if it was my yard but at 4 to 1 odds sometimes you have to consider the aftermath of your own actions

I probably wouldn't have gone out, even if armed. But only a hammer? You ain't Thor. :D 4 to 1? Call the cops, arm yourself, gather the family and secretly watch through a window.

hogdogs
January 12, 2009, 07:32 AM
I woulda done the same thing, except I woulda thrown something, even my phone if I had to.
I wouldn't put anything across the fence as that would be a crime I bet....

Sound like a bunch of kids just messing around jumping fences.
Very possibly was just that. But don't go crossing MY FENCE My fence is there so that only the invited are "messing around" in my yard...

I probably wouldn't have gone out, even if armed. But only a hammer? You ain't Thor. 4 to 1?
As was proven here... most deviant youth are not truly tuff... once one goes down many if not all the rest will flee like trash can rats when they here the garbage truck...
Had it been in florida and any had crossed back into my yard it would have been Head Busta time...

Do these punks actually just mess around tearing up folks high dollar fences or were they fleeing a home up the street that they had been attempting to B&E when scared off like the little punks they are...
Brent

Chuckusaret
January 12, 2009, 07:39 AM
Where I live kids just don't jump a 6' fence just to be jumping them, when they jump one here they are up to no good. In my neighborhood most most residents are retired and the majority of them are retired military and are armed. The four fence jumpers would have paid dearly for their total disregard of others property rights. Need I say more.

Brit
January 12, 2009, 07:40 AM
The rudeness, and stupidness of some young members of our society flabbergasts me! If they had taken that trespass into a criminal trespass, as in kicking in your back door, one or more of them could have been killed!

Depending on the difficulty (time line) of gaining entry, ie; screen and house door construction.

One place I worked years ago, had a stray dog we adopted, a big one! had a black coat like a thick rug, he did not bark! a Buvayay? (spelling) once those first set of sneakers had hit the ground? Trouble would have arrived for that first young trespasser. Does fair game sound right!

George PT-111
January 12, 2009, 07:41 AM
well done my friend !! haha really

scoutleader
January 12, 2009, 08:15 AM
My wife asked me if I was playing whack a Mole with there hands. I do believe that they were up to no good. I am on our neighbor hood watch and we have had an influx of some thugs due to the economy. I did call the police and when I when out to the fence it was just to see if I could see where they were headed. At 42, I did not think I could fight off four 18 to 20 year old punk kids. I did see one of them Sunday night while I was out on watch, I called the police and they did come talk to him.

Croz
January 12, 2009, 10:00 AM
Where I live kids just don't jump a 6' fence just to be jumping them, when they jump one here they are up to no good.

Same here. We can all say they were just 'messing around' because they were caught and tried to flee. No telling what they might have been up to if they weren't caught.

Brian Pfleuger
January 12, 2009, 11:51 AM
You know, it used to be that teenagers causing trouble got a load of rock salt from a shotgun and most everybody thought it pretty well served them right. Now the question is "You hit them on the hand with a hammer! How dare you!"

Right there, in a sentence, one big reason society is where it's at today.

OldMarksman
January 12, 2009, 12:40 PM
According to this, criminal trespass in Tennessee is a Class C Misdemeanor and can be punished by a fine or a sentence of up to 30 days in jail. Tenn. Code Ann. 40-35-111 (2006). "If the accused person uses force to enter the property and has knowledge that the owner has not consented to the entry, the trespass is criminal. A fence or enclosure around the property can convey the owner’s lack of effective consent. Otherwise the offense is a civil one that will not result in criminal charges."


http://www.tennesseecriminallawyerblog.com/2007/01/criminal_trespass.html

However, I find no mention of the use of force in the law itself:

http://www.tncrimlaw.com/TPI_Crim/14_05.htm

I do find it noteworthy that the law states that "entry" means that the person's entire body has entered, and that if the person leaves upon request he will not be prosecuted.

Where I live, the county police are given a great deal of legal instruction. Apparently that's not the case in the department that responded to the OP.

Lee Lapin
January 12, 2009, 08:11 PM
The dogs here would have had some new chew toys. Squeaky ones, the kind they like best...

lpl

vytoland
January 12, 2009, 10:04 PM
wow sounds like u had a terrorist activity on your turf:eek:..........got 2 de fend the home land at all costs:rolleyes:

guntotin_fool
January 13, 2009, 03:23 AM
Seems to me all they were doing at the point you hit them was touching the fence. You attempted to cripple them over touching your fence?


What ever happened to "get the hell outta here" or "Whatcha doing in my yard"? I would think that is where I would start before trying to cause GBH with a hammer.


I wasn't there I understand that. But when does hoping a fence constitute a grave threat to harm you. Particularly at three pm. Three am I can be convinced something was up. But three PM means schools out. May be your daughter or your neighbors daughter invited them over but they got interupted. Maybe they were trying to meet one of the above girls and found out you where home. Until you have good reason to suspect they meant you harm I have to say you were WAY over the line.

The more I sit here and re think this and re read this, I get really angry over the tone that a few have taken here about "Hoooo Boy!! That be some fun smashing some kids hand for touching your fence!!!"

Without knowing what those kids were doing I would say you have probably opened a can of whooppaaass on your self. If that had been me just being a kid, not in the commission of any crime but just cutting through a yard and you had smashed my hand. There would be nothing of your property which would be safe. Nothing. Call me an un-repentant juvie or whatever, but
smashing my hand without warning or cause would put you on the perpetual ****list for all time.

I just can't get over not saying "Whatcha doing in my yard" before playing blacksmith on some kids hand.

Sixer
January 13, 2009, 05:55 AM
I agree with guntotin-fool.. and what the heck was you're wife doing with a shotgun!?

I mean, sure they probably shouldn't have been running through your yard... but it sounds like they were already on their way out when you decided to go whacking at them. To me that says that they were no longer a threat. I guess it's probably a good thing that you weren't "prepared".

If you honestly felt your life was in danger, from 4 kids, then that's a different story. It just doesn't seem like that was the case though.

It reminds me of when I was a kid and we had that one token "grumpy old guy" in the neighborhood. I took a shortcut through his yard one night and the old fart chased me half way down the block, lol! Needless to say, my old man was knocking on his door the next morning. I don't know what my dad said to him, but he was very apologetic the next time we met.

Double Naught Spy
January 13, 2009, 06:48 AM
Seems to me all they were doing at the point you hit them was touching the fence. You attempted to cripple them over touching your fence?

Gimme a break. Don't trivialize actions in such a manner that we can show any activity is virtually harmless. This reminds me of a lady I saw on TV who was crying (literally) that her baby was killed for trespassing and the punishment for trespassing was not death. In reality, her boy was killed during a B&E with several other boys and was in the home of a man who defended his family. The boy was unarmed and was trespassing, no doubt. The mother made it sound like the boy was doing nothing harmful what-so-ever, and maybe he wasn't (yeah, right), but from the perspective of the man, the boy and his fellow gang initiates were advancing down the hall toward himself and his family and would not stop until he shot the lead boy. His actions were completely justified and no charges were filed against him.

He did not hit the trespasser for "touching the fence." Did you not read? He hit the trespasser for attempting to trespass again.

That is when I hear the idiots jumping back on the fence. I turn around and get to the fence as two of them are trying to get over the fence. I see two sets of hands and use the only thing I have at the time, the mallet.

Now while I don't believe hitting a guy's hands with a mallet is an appropriate line of action here, the point is that it was done to stop a perceived crime against the hitter. He protected himself and his property in the process against what he perceived as a threat.

Along similar lines, you can't use deadly force against another who is holding a knife. Holding a knife isn't a crime, even. However, if that person holding the knife is threatening your life, you can use deadly force. We can trivialize the situation and claim the aggressor was "just" holding a knife, but that doesn't convey anything about the intent. Sure, the tresspassers were "touching the fence" but it wasn't for the sake of feeling the wood grain, as perceived, but to commit trespass anew.

If you honestly felt your life was in danger, from 4 kids, then that's a different story. It just doesn't seem like that was the case though.

Right, nothing in the OP bespeaks of fear for one's life. In fact, it all sounds rather hokey. Why the cop would allegedly state that trespass was a Class A felony is just off the scale in wrongness. The only way it would have been more wrong is if the cop allegedly said it was a capital crime.

The question is one of whether the actions taken, hitting the hands with a mallet, were actually justified.

scoutleader
January 13, 2009, 08:38 AM
To Spy and guntotin,
I had yelled at them when they went out of the yard. They were on the way back in to the yard when I hit there hands. So if your kids are playing in the backyard and four 18 to 20 year old males start hopping over your 6 foot fence and do not stay out when you tell them too, do you just let them?
My daughter is 9 and no she did not call them to come over. My property is marked private, they disobeyed the command to stay out. It was criminal trespassing. If they would prosecute cases then the thugs would not keep doing this, all they would have got was a slap on the hand from a judge and told not to do it again.
I did what I did to keep my family safe. The wife go the shotgun for me because I told her to do it. There was 4 against one and I am to old to roll around on the ground with them.

kirkcdl
January 13, 2009, 10:03 AM
I would've grabbed the shotgun,and then yelled at them from cover to stay out of my yard.As soon as all 4 were back in the yard,they'd go to the ground,voluntarily or otherwise,at gunpoint.In my opinion all you did by "whacking" them was give them someone to retaliate against in the future,watch your back...

Chuckusaret
January 13, 2009, 10:13 AM
What ever happened to "get the hell outta here" or "Whatcha doing in my yard"? I would think that is where I would start before trying to cause GBH with a hammer.
Come on, get real. It is to late to tell someone to get out of your yard after they have climbed over your 6' fence. Your way of thinking is why they don't have respect for others rights. In Palm Beach County Florida, "get the hell outta here" would most likely have been responded to by the trespasser with a bang. I would have released my shepard, she dislikes strangers in "her yard".

FireForged
January 13, 2009, 01:26 PM
I have no doubt that these people knew they were doing something wrong and obviously were not invited to allowed to enter your property. That being said, I am curious as to why exit the safety of your home to challenge 4 or possible more people?

cat9x
January 13, 2009, 01:31 PM
i could imagine you being nervous but sure did make for a great story, thanks for sharing!

ZeSpectre
January 13, 2009, 02:18 PM
Sound like a bunch of kids just messing around jumping fences.

Well I know what "messing around" like that would have earned me as a kid or a young man. I often wonder when jackassing around like this started getting a free pass in society.

Sixer
January 13, 2009, 03:51 PM
I'm not advocating a free pass for the kids, I'm just glad to hear no one was seriously injured. It would have been a real shame had things escalated to gun play.

freakintoguns
January 13, 2009, 04:56 PM
being that im 27 years old, and still live with my elderly mother, i would have gone outside with the good ole louisville slugger in my hands and my XD in its holster in my jeans and given them kids as astern talkin to. of course, knowin my surroundings if there in my yard its because the neighbors on both sides have ginormous rotts and pitbulls so my yard is the only safe spot. that is until a ****** off 6'1" bat weilding lunatic is comin at them :D

B.N.Real
January 14, 2009, 06:58 AM
I LIKE the fact that your wife was backing you up with the shotgun.

Nice to see you have a better half willing to be at your side when trouble hits.

Trespassing makes people feel comfortable in your property then they feel just as comfortable relieving you of your property.

Doing the 'hammer stamp' on their hands was a very easy way for them to get off.

They earned the 'hammer stamp',at least,for not having any respect for your property.

Jay1958
January 18, 2009, 12:08 AM
This is so kind hearted and forgiving a point of view, it makes me want to sing "Kum-Bye-Ah", hold hands with a violent criminal and offer him forgiveness in the name of niceness...

Seems to me all they were doing at the point you hit them was touching the fence. You attempted to cripple them over touching your fence?

I know just what you mean! I -always- get angry when somebody tries to protect their own rights, and not somebody else's! I mean, unless they are less fortunate than others, and have to resort to crime or other anti-social behavior, in which case, then of course, I have compassion. For the perpetrators, not the victims. I mean, the perpetrators ARE the victims, right? Otherwise they wouldn't do mean things! Their mothers probably tickled their toes, or they didn't get as many toys as the other kids at Christmas time. Ohhhhhh! I didn't mean CHRISTMAS time, I meant during the holidays! Don't want to offend nobody...

The more I sit here and re think this and re read this, I get really angry over the tone that a few have taken here about "Hoooo Boy!! That be some fun smashing some kids hand for touching your fence!!!"

Yep! I'm angry! Them poor boys probably just needed some love and affection. We should take up a collection for their medical expenses to have their hands treated, and break out the tar and feathers for the OP.

Contrarian12
January 31, 2009, 01:52 AM
Good for you! Hilarious for you to be smacking their fingers with the mallet!

Good justice!

Double Naught Spy
January 31, 2009, 08:30 AM
Good justice!

Just what do you think the word "justice" means?

garryc
January 31, 2009, 08:52 AM
LOL I'm thinking razor wire here, about three rolls. Have you ever seen a punk tied up in razor wire? Ain't pretty! They don't tend to try it twice.

Some years ago we had a fool try to cross our razor wire. He ended up with about 800 stitches, he never tried it again.

DonR101395
January 31, 2009, 10:15 AM
Call me an un-repentant juvie or whatever, but
smashing my hand without warning or cause would put you on the perpetual ****list for all time.


Cause, they jumped the fence once and were on their way back over.
Warning, if they had an IQ above 3 they would know that their actions could turn out bad for them.
****list, it wouldn't matter to me as long as you remembered who corrected your behavior problem.

FyredUp
February 1, 2009, 10:55 AM
I will not criticize or judge the OP's actions he was there I was not.

My actions would have been different because better than half the time I am home alone at night. I would have at the very least grabbed one of my pistols and probably my shotgun if I truly believed there was trouble brewing. If they came over the fence I would have waited until the were all there and announced my presence and racked the slide of the shotgun. Requesting that "Golly gee you fun loving kids, would you please lay face down on my lawn with your arms over your heads while I call the police?" Hopefully the presence of a ****** off homeowner, with a shotgun, would have made them compliant with my oh so polite request. IF it went cowsh!t I am definitely at a tactical advantage with a loaded and ready to go shotgun pointed in their direction.

OldMarksman
February 1, 2009, 01:45 PM
Posted by FyredUp in Wisconsin: If they came over the fence I would have waited until the were all there and announced my presence and racked the slide of the shotgun. Requesting that "Golly gee you fun loving kids, would you please lay face down on my lawn with your arms over your heads while I call the police?

It would be a good idea to consult an attorney before doing anything like that. It is possible that you may end up being charged with a crime or subjected to civil liability.

Here's something from the State of Wisconsin on the Wisconsin Trespass Law:

If you should come across trespassers, don’t lose
your temper. Be courteous but firm when you ask
them to leave. Clearly identify your property boundary
to them, and politely ask them to respect your property.
If they will not leave, contact the County Sheriff. Sheriff
Deputies are authorized to issue a trespasscitation,
similar to a traffic citation, to these interlopers.

States vary, but it seems that most do not permit detention for civil trespass. In Texas, the law states that even the police may not arrest a simple trespasser without a warrant.

Where the OP lives, trespassing is a misdemeanor. I certainly would not want to take assuming the risks attendant to performing a citizen's arrest for that.

P99AS9
February 1, 2009, 01:58 PM
I grabbed the mallet


I see two sets of hands and use the only thing I have at the time, the mallet.

Lol your like Thor!

P99AS9
February 1, 2009, 01:59 PM
Lol your like Thor!

Oh wait somebody already mentioned that, sorry. :p

Hemicuda
February 4, 2009, 01:49 PM
OR, you can do what I did...

I live in BFE, out in the country, in an area with alot of farms...

My fence is only 5 feet high, but has barbed wire strung with the fence boards... (gotta keep them stray cows out) I also picked up a "weed burner" electric fencer at a local yard sale... now 2 of those strands of wire, one inside the fence and one outside, are on isnulators and are electrified...

as long as there is no odinance against electrified fences, they are legal, and aren't considered a "booby trap"...

the fool who climbs my fence is in for a shocking experience... and for those who don't know, "weed burners" (though not made anymore) are a constant-power fencer, with high voltage and low amperage... hurts like heck, but won't kill ya...

lanternlad
February 4, 2009, 04:17 PM
I like the fact that you gave them the "slap on the wrist" before the judge could. :)

To all you people who think that the OP had "no right to cripple the kids for touching his fence" - did you not read that they had left, AND WERE COMING BACK?! That shows CLEAR intent to do harm. What the hell are people doing on these boards when someone tells them about a self-defense situation and all they can think to do is condemn him for it?

You can bet your last dollar that the thought in these punk kids heads went from "old man can't tell me what to do" to "Crap! He's gonna fight! Run!"

OldMarksman
February 4, 2009, 07:50 PM
To all you people who think that the OP had "no right to cripple the kids for touching his fence" - did you not read that they had left, AND WERE COMING BACK?! That shows CLEAR intent to do harm

I, for one, did not read that they were coming back. It was not there. However, if it were, I'm not at all sure it would justify "crippling" anyone.

What the hell are people doing on these boards when someone tells them about a self-defense situation and all they can think to do is condemn him for it?

Self defense situation???? As I read it, this was a matter of simple trespass. No one was threatened with imminent death or bodily harm. In what way did the OP's actions constitute self defense?

I have not condemned the OP. However, I think he may well have been lucky in avoiding charges, and, I hope, in avoiding retribution.

I cannot put myself in the shoes of a violent person. However, I surmise that a person thwarted in trespass without injury would likely go away, and that one who has been injured may harbor a grudge, and possibly act on it.

Lanternlad, if you have a weapon, it would serve you well to become very informed on what you can do with it legally--before you ever have to produce it.

dmwphoto
February 4, 2009, 08:01 PM
watch out for vandalism and other mischief now. They are not going to be happy about this

Smallgame2100
February 4, 2009, 08:03 PM
If they were smart, they'd just dont go to that area. If something gets vandalized, he'll know who it is, or in the direction of people to look for.

I wouldnt have a problem injury someone running through my yard. Thats trespassing. You didnt ask, you broke the law, now pay the price..or just dont do it.

dmwphoto
February 4, 2009, 08:07 PM
right smallgame. I did not see that the OP ever saw them or could recognize them except for throbbing fingers...
OF course if they thought he saw them you are correct

Rourke
February 4, 2009, 08:59 PM
Great story to remind everyone that anything can happen anytime. You never know.........

Now I need to go clean and lube my rubber mallet :)

Rourke

OrlandoRecon
February 4, 2009, 10:19 PM
I agree with what you did.

That'll be the day when I allow 4 punks to jump my fence without giving them an ass beating.

Besides if you ever did make it to court over what you did to them and I was on the jury, you would be walking out of that court room a free man. Just like how you walked in.


You are the protector of your family, not the police, not the judge, and not your neighbors. YOU are the protector of your family !!! You don't have to apologize to anyone for that...

Keep up the good work.

scoutleader
February 5, 2009, 08:12 AM
Orlando,
They did try to get back into the yard after I ran them out. Since they did not stop after a verbal command to stay out, and the property is posted, I did what I thought I had to do. I was out numbered and did not want to fight them all at one time in my backyard. I stop them the only way I could think of at the time. I am very glad that I did not have to take someones life or lose my own. I have found out that one of the males(18 yrs old) was caught breaking into houses. I know it was him because of the jacket he was wearing.

Sevens
February 5, 2009, 08:56 AM
In reading through the entire thread, and then re-reading the first post, it's not all that obvious until the OP points it out for certain that the four guys are indeed coming back in to the yard.

I would think that part of the situation warrants your actions, and I would imagine that most folks who might have thought it wasn't appropriate weren't entirely sure that these guys were coming back over your fence and in to your yard.

IMO (that's all it is), if these guys jumped your fence and entered your yard -- then left -- then attempted to return when you arrived on the scene, YES, you are completely justified in going offensive. And I think it's a very good choice to whack 'em with something other than gunfire.

woad_yurt
February 5, 2009, 09:26 AM
A lawyer once told me that, in TN, deadly force may be used if "a reasonable person" perceives another person has an "intent to do harm" to one. If a homeowner wakes up to find a stranger in their dwelling, TN assumes that the person is there to do harm just because they're there.

Now, legally, kids hopping a fence may or may not be up to some teenage stupidity and may or may not be there to do harm. But, legally speaking, what reason would anyone have to return after the lawful resident has chased them off immediately previous? Any reasonable person would be very, very foolhardy not to assume that they were coming back to do harm.

I'm no attorney so please don't use me as a justification for future actions. Check for yourself. If there are any TN criminal attorneys out there who know otherwise, please speak up. If I am mistaken, I really would like to know.

To Mrs. Scoutleader: Brava, girlfriend!

OldMarksman
February 5, 2009, 11:29 AM
A lawyer once told me that, in TN, deadly force may be used if "a reasonable person" perceives another person has an "intent to do harm" to one.

Careful. You may have forgotten some key parts of what he or she actually told you.

Here's what the law actually says:

A person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and is in a place where such person has a right to be has no duty to retreat before threatening or using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury if: (A) The person has a reasonable belief that there is an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury; (B) The danger creating the belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury is real, or honestly believed to be real at the time; and (C) The belief of danger is founded upon reasonable grounds.

Emphasis added.

"Intent" isn't sufficient, the "harm" must be very severe indeed, and there must be a supportable basis for what the person "perceives.".


If a homeowner wakes up to find a stranger in their dwelling, TN assumes that the person is there to do harm just because they're there.

Here's the relevant wording:

Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury within a residence, dwelling or vehicle is presumed to have held a reasonable belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury to self, family, a member of the household or a person visiting as an invited guest when that force is used against another person, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence, dwelling or vehicle, and the person using defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.

Do not take this as legal advice--but I have copied the law.

noyes
February 5, 2009, 11:59 AM
Fence & house patrol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzn_ylrKJbI

jesus5150
February 6, 2009, 11:15 PM
There ya go... Get one of those dogs. Then you just gotta learn German lol. I'll give you a hand;

"Fluffy, Please go do a perimiter check and notify me of anything out of the ordinary."

or


"Fluffy, gehen Sie bitte eine perimiter überprüfen und Benachrichtigen Sie mich über alles aus der gewöhnlichen"

noyes
February 7, 2009, 12:20 AM
Platz

TEDDY
February 7, 2009, 11:17 AM
I have been lead to believe that in SC you dont go on any property that you dont own.it is a serious violation.
posters on here probably give there interpitation based on there local feelings.
and some of there feelings are why we have such a high crime rate.My feeling in this state is if he's trespassing he is not trespassing he is there to comitt a crime.we have been so brainwashed that we have become scared to even protect our own property.I dont have trespassers,my sign says"danger no trespassing private property."now adays people shoot you first and then rob you.you must have the mind set to see the difference and be prepared to act.if you dont you WILL go down.
The bible does not say you cant kill it says you cant murder.:rolleyes: :eek:

jfruser
February 9, 2009, 03:55 PM
Good for the OP. Just goes to show that software can utilize most any hardware to turn a situation around.

Also, with a child involved, you are not exactly mobile and able to retreat in the face of aggression, which is what the 4 punks displayed when they decided to come back over the fence after being told not to.

Makes me glad I have the dog I do.

She patrols the fence line and lets loose with a very intimidating bark when she perceives someone on the other side.

mav88
February 15, 2009, 10:23 PM
anyone who jumps my fence i will consider a threat. I think what you done is the right thing..calling and getting your firearm to be prepared. Luckily it didnt turn out to be worse then what it was.

BoulderTroll
February 15, 2009, 11:19 PM
Fence & house patrol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzn_ylrKJbI


Bah, schutzhund and GSD's are for sissies...get yourself a Mal! Here are some real dogs: :D;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc5P8n3LRak

I've got two Belgian Malinois in my yard, one a 2 1/2 year old female dope dog and the other a 5 year old male who has worked for two departments and had 6 good bites on bad guys (before I got him). I'd have loved for those 4 guys to have come into my yard. I even have the sign up in my window, "Belgian Malinois: I make it to the fence in 2.8 seconds, can you?" :D

I'm sorry for those here who feel that these are just kids fooling around. 12 or 13...sure, maybe. The OP said they were 18 to 20. I'm sorry but if four 18 to 20-years-olds came BACK into my yard they'd deserve just about anything they had coming to them. Good job to the OP! And trespassing (misdemeanor in my state) definitely equals a detention. Hold them at gunpoint until a cop gets there? Sure. If I ever got called to a scene where a homeowner held 4 twenty year olds at gunpoint for breaking into their yard I'd give the homeowner a high five.

allenomics
February 15, 2009, 11:19 PM
I just don't know how you must have felt at the moment? Doesn't really sound like they were attempting a break in or home invasion? Kids being kids?

txbirddog
February 16, 2009, 12:25 AM
I just don't know how you must have felt at the moment? Doesn't really sound like they were attempting a break in or home invasion? Kids being kids?

Sorry ladies and gentlemen, but 18 to 20 year olds ARE NOT KIDS!! Whatever happened to having respect for other's property? I raised my kids to do so and if they need to be somewhere, that is what sidewalks are for. IOW, keep your *** out of my yard.

Are you the kind of parents and let your kids run amuck and then blame someone else or society, when they get into trouble?? Would you be placing blame on the homeowner or trying to sue them when the ROTT tried to eat your "kid for just being a kid" and crossing into someone private property? I think they got off easy and it could have been worse!! Teach your kids right and wrong!!

mav88
February 16, 2009, 01:07 PM
Dogs aren't always good. I use to have one protecting mybackyard too...he would always bark when he saw street peope hanging in a ditch beside my house drinking alcohol. I believed they poisoned him and gave him something he wasn't suppose to eat...I was so pisssed and angry I tried Bring him to the vet. Therefore I no longer own one. they can be easily fooled with food for evil bastards who haven such an intent to do something like that.

bamafan4life
February 16, 2009, 01:26 PM
if someone hoped my fence id just walked out with my 12 gauge pump and done like clint eastwood did in grand torino snarl ''Get off my lawn!"

~ARMYSoldieR~
February 16, 2009, 01:54 PM
+1 BAM

Omaha-BeenGlockin
February 16, 2009, 02:18 PM
Sounds like they complied with your "request" for them to leave.

Well done.

BoulderTroll
February 16, 2009, 03:24 PM
Dogs aren't always good. I use to have one protecting mybackyard too...he would always bark when he saw street peope hanging in a ditch beside my house drinking alcohol. I believed they poisoned him and gave him something he wasn't suppose to eat...I was so pisssed and angry I tried Bring him to the vet. Therefore I no longer own one. they can be easily fooled with food for evil bastards who haven such an intent to do something like that.

Sorry that happened to your pup, Mav. But not all dogs are the same. My dogs won't eat food from anyone but me or my close family/ friends. I've had people try to give them food (and my female is very food motivated), they just won't take it. Malinois as a breed are very aloof and have to be socialized intensively as puppies to even be semi-normal around starngers. In my experience with them most Mal's won't take food from a stranger.

BillCA
February 16, 2009, 04:24 PM
What the hell ever happened to common courtesy?

When we were kids, we were pretty well educated by age 6 or so that we did not go, uninvited, into other people's fenced yards or open garages. Nor did you open the doors of cars parked in their driveways or on the street. If it's not yours, you have no right to mess with it.

The one time I tried to steal (at age 7) I got caught. Bad enough apologizing to the store owner, worse listening to "Just wait until your father gets home"... terrifying to listen to the "play" the parents put on with dad snapping his belt and saying "I'll blister the h*** outta his backside!" (while mom "calmed" him down). I feared their punishment much more than being in jail.

Now... when we were ages 8-11, half a dozen of us would "walk the fence" to get to each other's houses instead of going the long way around the block. The wooden fences had a 2x4 "topper" that was easy to navigate for small kids (unless they were loose!). Every once in a while some property owner would yell at us and we'd high-tail it outta there. But that's a different thing than hopping fences and actually cutting through someone's yard.

In the 70's we were adopted by a friend's dog and put up warning signs on our gates. Mostly it was for the power company meter-readers and similar folks who might have a legitimate reason to enter the property.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff111/BillCA/Dogs/DobieSign28.jpg
And still had stupid people ignore the signs!

From the OP's post, I understood from the first reading that the kids left, then started to come back. If my 9 y/o daughter was playing in the yard and they decided to come back, using the mallet would certainly be an option.

If the offenders had been pre-teens, I would have said his actions were a bit harsh. But for teenagers who should know better, life is harsh and sometimes so is the lesson for doing something stupid, illegal or just having bad judgement. For some people, that's the ONLY way they learn.

But if I run you off the property, yelling to stay out of my yard and you decide to come back, I am going to interpret that as a hostile action. Normal people wanting to "explain" their actions can do so through the fence. There's no reason to illegally return to the yard unless you are intending harm or willfully tresspassing.

What really irks me the most is when some teenage or older person is caught stealing or entering a home and when they get hurt, their parents and/or others claim that "they weren't hurting nobody!" or "he would never do something like that! He was a good boy!" Well apparently these idiots think that being a criminal caught in the act doesn't constitute harm or being bad. :rolleyes:

This is the same stupid reaction we had last year when some 19 y/o thug was spotted prowling around the home of a 16 y/o girl and she called the PD. They arrived and found him inside a screened patio area and he drew a weapon on police and was shot four times. The news showed the mother wailing that her boy was "a good son and never in no trouble". Even though he had 2 stolen handguns on him, a knife and a 6" screwdriver. Never mind the prior youth charges of assault or possession of drugs ... no, he was "never in no trouble". :barf:

ElectricHellfire
February 16, 2009, 05:00 PM
I think the climber should be glad he got a mallet to the hand rather than a face full O'20 gauge. The moron should come and thank you.

OldMarksman
February 16, 2009, 05:57 PM
I think the climber should be glad he got a mallet to the hand rather than a face full O'20 gauge.

And so should the homeowner and his family.

Daugherty16
February 20, 2009, 01:32 PM
All in all, it worled out fine - so far. Heed the warning about reprisals, but even that i think unlikely since they know how you respond to threats.

Anyway, here in CT and in many states, i think, the law distinguishes between simple trespass and criminal trespass. Simple trespass is just that - knowingly entering another's property but without other criminal intent. Maybe your yard wasn't posted (except for the fences, duh) but after you chased them off the first time, no question that fair warning had been given. ANY reasonable person could responsibly assume that by coming back, these youths were engaging in criminal trespass -which means trespass with intent to commit a crime. Take your pick - assault, rape, robbery, burglary, property damage - some of which can be met with deadly force, and some of which can't. A mallet to the fingers doesn't constitute deadly force, and it seems to have been sufficient force.

And just in case, your wife had the 20g for backup if it escalated into a deadly threat to life or limb. I'd say it worked out just fine, and you've got one heck of a wife.

scoutleader
February 20, 2009, 10:11 PM
Well I have found out that one of the kids was 18, he was arrest about week after his run in with my mallet. So I would think that they all are in the upper teen age. I know it was one of the kids( they are kids to me at the 41) since I got a good look at his coat as he when over the fence the first time. I think we may have them ran out of the area, I think they were hanging out at a house that was selling drugs. They did not last with our neighborhood watch program. The nice thing about this is it has made the wife become more comfortable with the guns in the house. She is a yellow dog Democrat, and hates guns, but she is coming around.