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L'derry
January 1, 2009, 02:42 PM
So I just watched the above movie again. First time since I got interested in BP revolvers, and of course this time, I'm scrutinizing all the guns used. Backing up the action, pausing the frame, squinting at the gun shape. But I'm puzzled by the gun Eastwood was using. It looked like an 1860 Army, but he was loading brass cartridges into it from the rear of the cylinder. It appeared to have a loading lever on it though.:confused:

After they loaded their weapons, and pointed them toward the camera, the cylinders all appeared empty, but then they fired them and poof - smoke! My guess is that the blanks were themselves black. I loved hearing the ricochets dubbed in for EVERY shot taken!:rolleyes:

Anyone analyze that film and identify the models used - especially Eastwood's?

Hawg Haggen
January 1, 2009, 02:52 PM
They were all conversions which weren't available during the time frame of the movie. Guns were switched around too with different actors carrying different guns at different times. The guns in the muzzle scenes were empty. They were only loaded for firing scenes.

long rider
January 1, 2009, 05:13 PM
Well after HH as said that, it kinda puts a rain cloud
on the movie,:(:D

L'derry
January 1, 2009, 05:23 PM
That's true, Hawg. Any one character could have carried army's, navy's, '60s and '58s. The guy playing "Angel Eyes" had at the end, (his end) what looked like a '58 with percussion caps on the cylinder nipples, but he was wearing a cartridge belt with cartridges the size of .308s!

Seems strange they would go to all the trouble of having hundreds of period weapons (which included rifles and cannons) and then do something way off the mark. But I guess the limitation of BP handguns would have not been as exciting for the movie. Still, it was fun to see the weapons in use. Some of the leather was pretty nice as well.

long rider
January 1, 2009, 05:50 PM
IF you like westerns like most of us do and you
look for period correct guns then tom selleck and
kevin costner and sam elliot, they say they like to
use period correct wepons, just a tip bit, but most
of you guys know that.:D

Riot Earp
January 1, 2009, 06:06 PM
Eastwood's gun looks more like a Colt Navy conversion to me.

http://www.clinteastwood.org/forums/index.php?topic=5094.0

See Cimarron's "Man With No Name" revolver.

kirpi97
January 1, 2009, 06:21 PM
I am learning more here about the movies :) than I did in the cinema course in college. Let me get some popcorn popping before the next feature.:D:D

CraigC
January 4, 2009, 09:23 PM
If I remember right, Clint Eastwood used an 1851 cartridge conversion, as did Tuco. Van Cleef may have used a `58 Remington conversion. Hawg's right though, these proceeded the Civil War by a few years. Colt and Remington could not do breech loading cartridge conversions until S&W's Rollin White patent ran out in 1869. Close enough though and they went to far more trouble than most other westerns did. Most used Colt SAA's and Winchester `92's regardless of when the movie was set, even those set right after the Civil War. Replicas were not yet available on the commercial market so all those used in the movie were expressly created for it. Great movie!

DrLaw
January 4, 2009, 10:07 PM
It's just a movie. Anything not made recently will not have period correct weapons. I've seen pre-Civil War era pictures with Colt Peacemakers being used by everybody, i.e. DARK COMMAND with John Wayne and Roy Rogers in a story about Quantrill's Raiders. There was some other film about Jim Bowie where everybody wore single-shot percussion pistols in holsters. They didn't care back then. It was all just entertainment.

Just pop some popcorn, sit back and relax.

The Doc is done prescribing for you now. :cool:

4V50 Gary
January 4, 2009, 10:19 PM
When you're an itty-bitty kiddy, you just don't notice those details like an adult. Now that I'm older, I notice it. I also like that one line which kinda explains why the Confederacy lost the war, "General Sibley, he looks dead." :D

CraigC
January 5, 2009, 12:25 PM
Rather than deride the moviemakers for not using percussion guns, I have to give them a lot of credit for using the cartridge conversions. They went to a lot of trouble to have those guns built. Anybody else would've just used Colt SAA's and 1892's, most of them did.

Raider2000
January 5, 2009, 01:05 PM
Colt and Remington could not do breech loading cartridge conversions until S&W's Rollin White patent ran out in 1869.

Remington had the Rights in 1867 or 1868 "Paid S&W a royalty fee to do it" so that they could have their own conversion cylinders manufactured for their existing 1858/63 Revolvers.
They beat Colt to the punch by almost 2 years.

CraigC
January 5, 2009, 02:41 PM
You're right, I forgot about that little tidbit. I have to wonder how differently things would've turned out if Colt had bought Rollin White's patent when he had the chance.

Raider2000
January 5, 2009, 03:44 PM
If Colt bought the Rights, no one would be able to use that feature for a many of years just like how he did when he got his Patents on his other designs.

Why do you think Remington & Beals had to wait till 1858 to patent their pistol design.

Gaucho Gringo
January 7, 2009, 05:58 PM
According to what I have read on the subject, Rollin White worked for Colt and he offered the patent rights to Colt to begin with. Colt turned him down, so he went to Smith & Wesson and they bought it. White also manufactured guns which were sold by S&W. When Remington got the rights to use the patent, S&W charged them $1.00 per gun which doesn't sound like much but they were only getting around $5.00 for the conversion revolvers.

JT-AR-MG42
January 9, 2009, 05:41 AM
My absolute favorite cowboy gun scene is from that '57 classic. The script probably doesn't follow history very well, but come on, Lancaster and Douglas together with Frankie Laine singing them on!
Anyway, watch for the scene in the jailhouse. Burt is handling a long barrel SAA and playing with the skeleton stock for it. If you look closely, you can see the ladder rear sight.
I am convinced that the gun is the original deal. No shooting scenes with it. That one was owned by John S. DuMont at the time if I am not mistaken. Don't know who has it now.
JT

Smokin_Gun
January 12, 2009, 04:06 AM
Hey JT,
Who has it now?:cool:

SG

Bones507
January 12, 2009, 02:48 PM
Here is a link for a repro of the gun he used. Im looking for a holster that is similar to the one he used also but im on a budget and the only ones i have found are going for $300 and better.

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/Conversions/ManNo%20NameConv.htm

gmatov
January 13, 2009, 12:21 AM
DrLaw,

"I've seen pre-Civil War era pictures with Colt Peacemakers being used by everybody, i.e. DARK COMMAND with John Wayne and Roy Rogers in a story about Quantrill's Raiders."

I don't think those were depictions of "pre-Civil War".

Quantrill was during and after the Civil War. I don't know if Quantrill lasted to '71 or '72 when Colt, or Colt's, made their first bored thru cylinders. Sam Colt was dead, by then.
The pistol is called the Peacemaker, model of 1873, but assuredly it was under development long before the patent expired.

I think I have read that Colt's centerfire was offered to the Army Trials as early as 1871. It is only the acceptance date that made it the Model 1873.

Likewise, Remington did not wait till they got rights to the patent to make the 1858. A patent does not make it illegal to prepare for either the expiration or accommodation with the patentee to design your own version, whether you take advantage after expiration or after you make a contract with the patent holder.

Likewise, I think I have read that Remington had their design about finished in 1856. It most likely should have been the Model 1857.

Ah, well.

Cheers,

George

CraigC
January 13, 2009, 01:13 PM
The pistol is called the Peacemaker, model of 1873, but assuredly it was under development long before the patent expired.

Not exactly. Colt's first bored-through, dedicated breech loading cartridge revolver, subsequently offered to the Army was the 1871-1872 Open Top model .44 rimfire. Which was a direct descendant of the Charles Richards cartridge conversions on the 1860 Army model and produced concurrently with the Richards-Mason conversion. The Army rejected it, stating that they wanted a solid frame and a centerfire .45 caliber. William Mason went back to the drawing board and designed the 1873 model P in a very short period of time. Obviously drawing heavily from Remington's solid frame design.


Remington did not wait till they got rights to the patent to make the 1858.

The 1858 was a percussion pistol. Their first percussion design was introduced in 1857, cartridges were still a long way off. Remington's bored-through cartridge conversions emerged in 1868. They reached the agreement with S&W in February of that year. The Rollin White patent expired only 14monts later in April 1869. They had previously used three British designs, the C.C. Tevis patent (1856), the J. Adams patent (1861) and the Tranter patent (1865), all of which used a two piece cylinder like the current Kirst.

Most of this info courtesy of "Metallic Cartridge Conversions" by Dennis Adler.

gmatov
January 20, 2009, 03:57 AM
Craig,

You're right. Colt was trying to make a bored through cylinder, and did offer some to the USG, as early as 1871 and 72. They were not all the "Open Top", which today is a collector's item.

I will have to look to my books, but I think the Model of 1872 was the actual model that became the Peacemaker, the Model of 1873.

It's academic. I have this book. You have that book. I interpret it this way. you interpret it another.

Regardless, I think old Sam died in 1863, so he didn't screw too many people after that, much to the chagrin of some who want to hang him for anything after that date.

Cheers,

George

DrLaw
January 20, 2009, 08:45 AM
Quantrill was during and after the Civil War. I don't know if Quantrill lasted to '71 or '72 when Colt, or Colt's, made their first bored thru cylinders. Sam Colt was dead, by then.
The pistol is called the Peacemaker, model of 1873, but assuredly it was under development long before the patent expired.

Civil War ended in 1865. Quantrill was killed before then. So even if pre or during Civil War, the Peacemaker was not there.

Like I say though, no big deal, it's just a movie. Bet they did not have a big supply of .44 Colts or Remmies back in the 40's and 50's when these movies were being shot. As to the Eastwood movies, they were called Spaghetti Westerns for a reason. They were shot by Italian Directors and crews. It stands to reason that they knew Uberti and the other gunmakers were in business in their own country, since they used those guns in many of the films.

The Doc is out now. :cool:

Keltyke
January 20, 2009, 11:16 AM
Who cares if the guns are right - they're all great movies!

"You boys gonna pull them guns or whistle Dixie?"

long rider
January 20, 2009, 11:24 AM
Yeah Me Too.:d

DrLaw
January 20, 2009, 11:43 PM
Ever see the Trinity movies? "MY NAME IS TRINITY" and "TRINITY IS STILL MY NAME" starring Terrence Stamp? That fast draw routine he does is hillarious, and I can't even remember what kind of gun he uses. Long barrel Colt?

The Doc is out now. :cool:

CraigC
January 21, 2009, 01:06 AM
It's academic. I have this book. You have that book. I interpret it this way. you interpret it another.

It's all pretty cut and dry. Exact dates are not open to interpretation. If you have any documentation supporting what you posted, I'd love to hear about it. Most of what I elaborated on is fairly common knowlege and no other books have been in print recently that go any further into detail on the subject. Everything I've read supports what I posted. I just thought a reference might lend more credibility.


I think the Model of 1872 was the actual model that became the Peacemaker, the Model of 1873.

No, it is as I stated. It's all spelled out in historical record. Yes, the Model P was designed in 1872 but it was an original design at Colt's. It wasn't "based" on anything, excepting the lockwork and Navy grip frame. The 1871-1872 Open Top was "based" largely on the 1860 cartridge converson but it was designed as a cartridge gun from the start. The Model P spelled its doom rather quickly but the 1860 cartridge conversions last for years after. I think your facts have just gotten a little hazy.

Hawg Haggen
January 21, 2009, 03:16 AM
Craig is right. The 1872 was an open top based on the Richard's-Mason conversion of the 1860 Army.

Keltyke
January 21, 2009, 10:01 AM
Ever see the Trinity movies?

Loved'em! "The Left Hand Of The Devil"

"Please senor, I can blow my own nose."

Draw, slap, holster. Draw, slap, holster.

Great Western schlock!

long rider
January 21, 2009, 07:33 PM
I saw them movies, the slapping sound effects
really funny.:D