View Full Version : 9mm suppresssor on a .357 carbine rifle
December 27, 2008, 09:33 PM
I have a fox problem but don't wish to disturb the neighbors with my marlin 1894c (.357 carbine). I've heard of people using 9mm suppressors on a .357 rifle. Can this work? Even if it's possible, how can I fit my rifle with the threading to accommodate a suppressor?
December 29, 2008, 11:47 AM
I'm not a suppressor guru, but I am an old time reloader. A .357 Mag is .357 in diameter and usually reloaded with .358 diameter bullets. A 9MM is .355 in diameter and usually reloaded with .356 bullets. I don't believe it would be a good idea to try to force .358/.357 bullets through a .356/.355 suppressor. Yes, I realize suppressors are oversized to the bore. Still if the suppressor is sized for .355, I would not try to shoot .357's through it.
December 29, 2008, 12:57 PM
1. Is it legal to shoot fox in your backyard where you live? If you have neighbors that are close enough you are worried about disturbing them with the already quiet .357 out of a rifle, then I cannot help but suspect you are asking for help in doing something that is illegal.
2. Are silencers allowed by the State you live in? Many States prohibit them.
3. Do you have any felony convictions? That will prohibit you from buying a suppressor. If not are you prepared to pay for the silencer, then fill out the paperwork, including a signature by your local Chief Law Enforcement Officer and two fingerprint cards, and then mail that off with check for $200 to the BATFE and wait a couple of months for them to send you back your tax stamp so you can go pick up the silencer? Do you live in a state that allows silencers? You'll also have to pay a gunsmith to thread your barrel. You'll be into this operation for about $1000 by the time you are done.
It would have to be quite a fox problem to make this a good path to take in solving it.
Most states allow trapping of fox. That's quite and you can dispatch them with a club or a .22
States that allow suppressors: AL, AR, AK, AZ, CO, CT, FL, GA, ID, IN, KY, LA, ME, MD,MS, MT, ND, NE, NV, NH, NM, NC, OH, OK, OR, PA, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VA, WA,WV, WI, and WY.
December 29, 2008, 04:10 PM
how can I fit my rifle with the threading to accommodate a suppressor
Most any NFA gunsmith will be able to help you with that. Expect to pay $100-150.
Do you already have the Federal Tax stamp required to purchase a silencer?
Not to be nit-picky, but there are tons of people who have misconceptions about getting our NFA goodies, so I just wanted to clarify that you don't get the Tax stamp until AFTER the suppressor is transfered to you via a Form 4 (and presumably you've paid for it).
There is nothing you need to have before you purchase a suppressor.
I've never seen a lever-gun with a suppressor, but it sounds like a really kewl toy...
If a 9mm suppressor won't work, you can always get someone to make a custom suppressor for you or probably even make a integral suppressor for the thing if you have the $$$. An integrally suppressed 357 Carbine would certainly turn some heads.
December 29, 2008, 05:17 PM
It seems like we go through people everyday posting with NFA misconceptions. If you don't actually have a tax stamp in your safe it's probably not a good idea to offer any kind of advice in this forum.
To get to your question, you'll need a suppressor without a booster to use on a rifle. Most 9mm pistol suppressors have a device that helps cycle the action. You don't want to use that device on a rifle. You could get a silencer with multiple mounts. Gemtech makes one.
One last note, if you've never heard a supersonic suppressed bullet, you might be disappointed by the very loud sonic crack. Eventually you're neighbors will start to wonder what that noise is and come to investigate. Might you consider a subsonic round like .45ACP or even subsonic .22LR?
December 29, 2008, 06:34 PM
If you already have a 9mm suppressor, you might consider getting a 9mm upper for your AR-15 (provided you have one of those too). :)
December 29, 2008, 10:54 PM
My neighbors have no problem with my shooting during daylight, but it's in the dead of night when my birds killed-- come to think of it, trapping DOES sound like a good idea... but a suppressed carbine for any occasion would be, how you say, kewl.
The local sheriff a friend of mine, so I wouldn't do anything illegal, but I don't know any gun smiths either. Because most .357 firearms are revolvers, there aren't any suppressors on the market that I can find, hence the very close approximation, 9mm.
Actually, I plan on firing subsonic .38s which cycle well in my lever action without much TLC. The issue is that the tube below the barrel which stacks the rounds terminates a quarter inch shy of the barrel, and leaves a very small gap along the length. Without extending the barrel or shortening the tube, I don't see how any attachment could fit.
I like the integrated suppressor idea though. I have some money in my gun-fund, and I love shooting my marlin... does swapping out the whole barrel seems like the best way to go?
December 29, 2008, 11:47 PM
I want to know what you decide to go with and what the cost is. I may follow in your footsteps.
December 30, 2008, 12:26 AM
Amended my previous post to correct the order of purchase: pay for suppressor, get LEO signatures and fingerprints, then send paperwork and $200 to BATFE and wait two months to get tax stamp.
I mistakenly had it that you had to have the tax stamp before making the purchase. You have to have it before taking possession but you have to buy the item first. In my book that's worse since I have to lay out the cash for something I cannot take home.
December 30, 2008, 01:16 AM
does swapping out the whole barrel seems like the best way to go?
It really just depends on how Hooah you want your toy to be.
A screw on suppressor will be much simpler and allow you to float the suppressor between mulitiple toys.
But a integral suppressed weapon will be quiter and you won't have to worry about your POI shifting with it on (of course this is assuming the project is doable, since with a lever gun you do have the magazine below the barrel).
There is an outfit that makes a suppressed Ruger 44 Magnum bolt-gun (another possible option for the OP) that offers custom suppressor stuff, who would be able to give you some guidance. I don't know the name of the company, but I'm sure someone here does. I nothing else, if would be interesting to see if the project is even doable.
since I have to lay out the cash for something I cannot take home.
haha! Wait 'till you send some dude you've never met (except over the internet), several thousand dollars for him to start the paperwork on a Machine Gun that you won't even see for a few months, than when you can finally hold it and play with it, you have to wait another few weeks until you can finally bring in home and worship it in the comfort of your own home. :D
December 30, 2008, 01:43 AM
One small clarification:
In WA State, you MAY own a suppressor.
You may TRANSFER and RECEIVE suppressors.
However, you may NOT USE the suppressor. To do so is a violation of State Law (RCW 9.41).
Yes, I know that it's retarded--but that's the way it is. :confused::(
December 31, 2008, 02:50 PM
The 0.002 inch size increase on the 357 is not going to make any difference when the typical bore size of a 9mm silencer is 0.400" or greater. What can be a problem is the powder charge. As far as I know. most 9mm silencers are made of aluminum and thin tubing which may not stand up to the heavier (2x)powder charge of the 357 mag.
Another problem is the barrel. The front sight it at the muzzle right? A gunsmith will need to move the sight back and reduce the length of the mag tube in order to thread the barrel for the silencer.
I think you would be better off using an accurate 22 rimfire rifle and making head shots. A 22 with subsonic ammo will be much less noisy than a 357 magnum even if you use 38 special ammo in your 1984.
Edited to add; I forgot about the 9mm silencers out there made for machine guns. The only 9mm silencers I have personally seen were made for pistols, some of which were used on semi-auto rifles.
December 31, 2008, 03:41 PM
that is a point... the pressure generated by the .357 is a bit more than a 9mm
puts through a "can", and not all 9mm cans are created equil in toughness. Some are made for light use on 9mm pistols, others are rated for full auto fire and are correspondingly built tougher. With .38 special you would be safe either way, and you avoid the supersonic crack that a .357 bullet is going to produce( which is as loud as a unsuppressed shot from a regular .22Lr 10/22 rifle its self)
Keep your loads under 1050fps out of that suppressed Marlin and it will be quiet.(though not as quiet as a good suppressed .22LR) Likely that you will have to mount a dot scope of some sort on it as well...as those regular sights will be obscured.
January 1, 2009, 11:27 AM
I think that any cartridge that gives you more than zero fps is going to cause hearing damage if fired without a silencer or hearing protection. In my opinion, the sonic boom is insignificant compared to the muzzle blast.
January 1, 2009, 12:43 PM
It looks like some are trying to help and others have no idea what they are talking about.
If you are going to purchase a suppressor (Form 4) I would first contact the various manufactures and ask them your question as many repairs to damaged suppressors now require another $200 tax stamp. The “sonic crack” is quite noticeable and no matter how good the suppressor is the rifle still sounds like a regular .22lr for all practical purposes.
If you want to hear the difference http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/can/ has some videos of a 9mm shooting subsonic and a .223 that is super sonic. The target is a steel plate at 50yds in the first two and 300 in the last. In the 300yd video, note the crack follows the path of the bullet past the row of trees, when you are standing beside the rifle being fired it sounds like the shot is taking place down range.
There are also some photos of a Form 1 (home made) suppressor I built for the 9mm AR. I used a steel blast baffle and 6061T6 for the K baffles. If a suppressor will stand up to a mag dump of 9mm it shouldn’t have a problem with a round of 357. Most suppressors are more than strong enough to handle the pressure, heat is what kills them.
I was unable to get the CLEO signature where I live so I formed a living trust, the document is 12 pages and two notarized copies were sent with my other paper work to the NFA branch, no photo or fingerprints required. Once you get everything sent in it takes around 3-4 months to get the approved form (with tax stamp attached) back. You can not begin building until you have the approved form 1. Most dealers will make you purchase or at least 50% down on a suppressor. You can not have possession until they have your approved form 4, then you take both home.
Hunting with a suppressor is a different story I would look into the laws of your state. In Texas for example, it is against the law to hunt game animals with a suppressor but ok for varmints and other non game animals.
January 1, 2009, 12:49 PM
RNab, :confused: when you have taken away the muzzle blast with a good sound suppressor, the sonic crack of a bullet is as loud as a regular shot from a 22 rifle. its significant. So anything one can do to eleliminate that as well when using a suppressor, all the better
I have 2 suppressed Rugers( a 22/45 and 10/22) and a AWC Optima for My AR15. While the AR15 doesnt ring your ears with a suppressor on and using regular service ammo, you darn sure can't fire it in the back yard and not bother the next door neibor because the sonic crack is darn loud.
My dad still has the M11/9 submachinegun and suppressor I sold him when I was a Class III dealer, so i still get to play with 9mm supersonic and subsonic
ammo though his on the farm, and well aware of the sound levels for both.
January 1, 2009, 06:20 PM
I guess I should qualify my answer a bit. I did say in comparison to the muzzle blast, the sonic boom was not significant. The boom from the fast bullet is greatly magnified when shooting indoors or under weather protection. I shoot 223, 9mm, 458 socom, 22lr, 300 whisper and 510 whisper suppressed. I do not see much difference between the subsonic and supersonic 9mm. I have not tried supersonic 300 whisper or subsonic 223 suppressed yet.
It is my subjective opinion that the supersonic crack from the 223 moving at 2900 fps is not as noisy as an unsuppressed 22lr, especially short barreled pistols. But my experience is limited as I can only shoot suppressed when I travel out of WA State. Opinions of course may vary. :)
January 1, 2009, 07:55 PM
I shot my suppressed .223 side by side with my dads unsuppressed .22LR revolver. Without hearing protection, the revolver definitely stung my ears but the .223 was comfortable.
January 1, 2009, 08:48 PM
In a .38 Colt case (Cowboy action load)try 1.9 grains of bulls eye under a deep seated 148 grain hollowbase wadcutter. Sight the gun in for 25 yards and enjoy! Will kill a 50 pound critter nicely and not to much louder than a supressed rifle in a 18" or longer barrel.:cool:
January 12, 2009, 12:11 AM
I own the same rifle you are thinking about suppressing. It is currently at Tornado Technologies being threaded for a suppressor. http://www.tornado-technologies.com/ Mike has threaded probably a dozen rifles for me and I can't recommend him highly enough. He is one of the good guys.
I don't think you will need to move the front sight or shorten the magazine tube. Here is a picture from the Marlin website showing that the front sight is not at the end of the barrel and the magazine tube doesn't go to the end of the barrel either. http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/1894Centerfire/1894C.asp
As you say, there is 1/4 or so there to play with. In addition, the barrel doesn't screw into the suppresor with the suppressor flat against the magazine tube. The suppressor also has another 1/4" to play with. Here is a picture of the suppressor I am going to use: an AAC Evo-9. In the picture is a threaded Glock barrel just to show you how much threading you need for the can. You actually only need like 1/4"
Shoot subsonic loads and the 9mm can will be fine and it will be quiet. I am thinking 180 grain bullets. A subsonic .357 bullet is no different than a subsonic 9mm bullet. One will not put any more wear or stress on the suppressor than the other.
Buy a lever scout rail for it and a Leupold Scout Scope. http://www.xssights.com/store/scope.html I have that set-up on my 444 Marlin and it is just the ticket for the .357 too.
If it turns out that I am wrong and the magazine tube does need to be shortened, I will post that information to this thread. I have had Mike move the front sight on several guns he threaded for me including a couple Ruger Mk.IIs like the ones shown on his website. Point being, if it needs to be moved, Ok, he will do it. If the magazine tube needs trimmed back, again, it can be done. I dont' think it will be nessessary but I am not the gunsmith.
January 15, 2009, 12:18 AM
I just got an email this evening from Tornado Tech. They have finished my rifle(s). I actually sent them two lever guns. The Marlin 1894C and a Marlin 39A .22.
He finished the job and is sending them back to me. When I get them back, I will let you know if there is any problem with the suppressor mounting on the 1894C and I will post pictures of the threading, the suppressor mounted, and the rifle with the thread protector.
The cost was $150 per rifle plus $19 for return shipping.
Having a tube fed .22 threaded for a suppressor is kind of a weird thing since you have to unscrew the suppressor from the barrel in order to load the rifle. However, if you don't plan on shooting up a lot of ammo, such as small game hunting or small varmint shooting, the Marlin 39A is a VERY accurate rifle that I really enjoy shooting. Plus, since the action doesn't open upon firing like a semi-auto, it will be as quiet as a bolt action rifle only it isn't a bolt action rifle.
I guess the bottom line is that I am slowly working toward getting all my guns threaded that are applicable to suppressor use. I have a pretty fair number of guns, so this is a big project. FWIW: this isn't like a concious goal, it is just sort of happening. I look at something I have in the safe and think, I bet that would be nice if it was suppressed. Or, I see someone posting a picture on-line of a suppressed gun and I think, hey I got one of those, I am getting it threaded.
January 21, 2009, 07:59 PM
I am not sure if there is any interest in this or not. I didn't get a reply to either of my last two posts.
We get a question, some speculation, then I say I am doing exactly what is being asked about and nothing.
If no one cares I won't bother posting the pictures. I already know what it looks like so I wouldn't be posting them for my own benefit.
January 23, 2009, 06:45 PM
I would appreciate a picture or 10 please.
I am going to get something specifically to suppress and I keep winding up looking at marlin leverguns.
January 23, 2009, 07:54 PM
You can see the iron sights without a problem.
The magazine tube didn't need shortened.
The suppressor isn't even close to the magazine tube.
The front sight didn't need to be moved.
Michael A. Le Lack
January 23, 2009, 09:15 PM
All this to kill a fox?:confused:
January 25, 2009, 12:32 PM
That's pretty cool. I suppose most folks don't care as it's not a tactikool EBR.
Have you noticed whether the action gets dirtier with the suppressor attached?
January 25, 2009, 03:58 PM
I don't know, I have never fired it. I just got it back from being threaded within the last few days.
I don't see why the action would get any dirtier. The action is locked upon firing. Now on a semi-auto the action definitely gets a lot dirtier with the suppressor.
I actually think that this project might turn out to be a nice surprise. The .38 Special case, loaded with a 180 grain bullet will not have a lot of empty space in it. The subsonic loads will be normal (not downloaded) loads. It is firing a relatively heavy bullet that should give good penetration. The breech is locked when you fire it, so it will be a little more quiet than an autoloader. You can easily see the sights with the suppressor attached. The suppressor is pretty light on the end of the barrel for a suppressed rifle.
January 31, 2009, 07:16 PM
I would say that the guy needs to get a racey new 22 hornet for this fox.
But if he wants to put a can on his lever that is cool too.
My point is if you are buying new equip. for work you need to watch every cent. However you can't spend too much on a hoby. Work is there everyday and is to get money. Life is short and money spent on fun is envestment in life. I'v been to a lot of grave yards, never seen a rock that said "Wish I Spent More Time At Work."
February 11, 2009, 03:07 AM
The pics don't show up anymore :( Could you update the links and maybe give us a pic or two with the cans on them? I'm really itching to see this, as I'd like to get my wife's favorite rifles done like this when if we're in PA for her next job assignment.
February 12, 2009, 09:47 AM
I can't tell if that last post is serious or not.
I would also like to see updated links as I can not view the pictures.
February 12, 2009, 12:51 PM
Not to be a jerk but I decided that it probably isn't a good idea to post pictures of my guns on the internet. In addition, I am tired of replying to threads like this and nobody even bothers to answer you.
The guy posted this thread, I took the time to post information directly applicable to what he was asking and he can't even bother to answer. If you post idle speculation, guesses, or your opinion the thread continues. The minute you post any factual information and you are talking to yourself.
So, I took all my photos down from the photohosting site and as a result they don't show up anymore. Sorry.
February 12, 2009, 01:03 PM
If it makes you feel better I looked up tornado tech and saved their site to my favorites.
February 17, 2009, 03:16 PM
My 357 contender with 9mm can is VERY quiet using 158gr and 180gr 38spl loads.
Another, more legal idea for backyard critters, are some of the moderated 22 and 25cal pellet guns. A moderated 40gr 25cal pellet at 1000fps is damn effective, accurate as hell, cheap to shoot and quiet. No tax stamp needed.
March 19, 2009, 07:24 PM
All this to kill a fox?:confused:
This endeavor sounds like a very expensive one, not to mention the paper trail leading to your door, months of waiting, etc. You might try thinking about some more cost effective solutions.
- Aguila Super Colibri (.22lr powered by the force of the primer, no gunpowder)
- High-powered air rifle
- Bow and arrows
- Even better: Crossbow
Hell, even a good blowgun would probably make them think twice about coming back.
Then there's always the option of trapping them and finishing them off with a .22 or baseball bat as suggested prieviously.
(Disclaimer: I have absolutely zero experience with NFA-related topics. I personally don't have a use for any of them, but I admit that they are pretty neat and I'd love to have one if they didn't require such a hefty fee and paperwork. I saw this thread and figured I'd submit a few options that are less expensive and more effective than jerry-rigging a 9mm pistol suppressor to a .357mag rifle.)
March 20, 2009, 12:29 PM
If you base all your decisions on what something costs, then I completely agree; buying suppressors and building up custom guns and/or guns with custom work on them is totally unnessessary. Also, if you think that $200 is a hefty sum of money and completing a form on the front and back sides is a lot of paperwork, then NFA weapons are definitely not for you.
I however don't think like that and I don't really hang around with people that think like that. So, buying suppressors and having rifles threaded to use them makes perfect sense to me and is a great way to enjoy the hobby. Nothing personal at all, but when I read that comment "All this to kill a fox? " the first thing that occured to me is that I probably wouldn't enjoy having that guy as one of my shooting buddies. That line of thinking is the polar opposite of my line of thinking. When I see something that I think is cool I try to figure out how I can obtain one and don't make any effort what so ever to try and justify buying it for any other reason other than I think it is cool.
In the end, these decisions are up to you and how you want to persue the hobby. There are ways to enjoy this hobby for everybody and what pulls one guy's chain seems ridiculous to someone else. All you need to concern yourself with is what you like and enjoy. And hopefully the other guys with completely different ideas do likewise. It is also of great importance that we all understand that we can have differing opinions, but we all do everything we can to ensure that we all can enjoy the hobby in whatever way each one of us gets the most out of. We are all on the same side here and support each others right to choose our own niche.
March 23, 2009, 01:41 PM
Nothing personal at all, but when I read that comment "All this to kill a fox? " the first thing that occured to me is that I probably wouldn't enjoy having that guy as one of my shooting buddies. That line of thinking is the polar opposite of my line of thinking.
+1 to that. How often do the NFA guys go into the other forums and demand justification for a $3,500 race gun or a .338 elk rifle... "Wadda-ya-wanna-killa-elk-for?" Do you have a license to hunt elk? What did the elk to to you? Seems suspicious to me...:barf:
Ok I'm done.;)
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