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mygunsbigger
December 20, 2008, 01:26 AM
I'm sure its asked here all the time but i cant seem to find a thread... Where does a "pistol" length stop and a "short-barreled rifle" length begin? also, if i purchased an ar15 w/ a 14.5" barrel and a 1.5" flash suppressor, would it be considered a class 3 or would the suppressor cover it? Thanks guys.

casey

David Hineline
December 20, 2008, 01:54 AM
16"

The flash hider on the short barrel is fine if welded on so not removable and the combination must add up to 16" With 26" overall.

mygunsbigger
December 20, 2008, 01:50 PM
where does it go from pistol to being a short barreled rifle?

What i mean is why is this a SBR...
.
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h199/caseygrooms/hk_mp5ka4.jpg

but this is a pistol?
.
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h199/caseygrooms/6512bd43d9caa6eL.jpg

David Hineline
December 20, 2008, 02:34 PM
The first one appears to be a machinegun, and as such barrel lengths and overall lenghts do not matter.

The first one if it is a short barreled rifle then it is because it started life as a shoulder fired weapon and had a buttstock on it that somone removed and put a short barrel on it.

If it started life as a SP89 handgun then the vertical pistol grip makes it an AOW by NFA classifications and needs be registered as such. If it started life as a SP89 handgun and someone wanted to put a buttstock on it then they would register it as a short rifle then they could put a buttstock on it or not put a buttstock on it but that would not change the fact that it was registered as a short rifle.

Sometimes when people buy an HK or other machinegun conversion kit, they will dual register a gun as a machinegun and a short rifle, that way when they move the machinegun conversion kit to another host semi auto, they are not stuck with an old semi auto gun in illegal configuration.

The second photo is just another AR15 pistol they became popular with a certain crowd that wants short barreled rifles but without the registration. That gun was made as a handgun not shoulder fired from the factory, and as such can never have a buttstock installed unless it gets registered as a short barreled rifle.

You can hav two guns that appear exactly the same but be different NFA items because of thier previous history and what registration changes happended to them.

You need to do a google search on NFA FAQ and read that. it explains the basics, then the important thing after that is decide what you want and buy it now not later.

If you take a 1974 Harley Davidson frame and build it into a total custom jet powered tricycle nothing like the original, on the registration form it will always be a 1974 Harley Davidson motorcycle.

aroundlsu
December 20, 2008, 04:20 PM
The easiest explanation is a pistol can't have a stock or vertical grip but can have any length barrel. A rifle can have a stock or vertical grip (or neither) but has to have barrel at least 16" (or a permanently attached flash hider).

As David pointed out, it's actually more complicated than that but that's the basics.

freakintoguns
December 20, 2008, 05:57 PM
so, can anyone go buy a AR pistol? or do they fall under NFA rules?

mygunsbigger
December 20, 2008, 10:45 PM
I think i've got it figured out for the most part. Problem for me is that i dont want the friggin ar pistol, i want the mp5k without the need for a class 3 and therefore i needed it to fall under the category of "pistol" and not SBR...am I making any sense?? Is there a way to do this and still abide by the law? I think that all versions of mp5 are considered sbr and if i understand what you were saying, as long as thats how they started life, thats just what they are... Looks like i'm getting a class 3 next year to avoid the headace...

David Hineline
December 21, 2008, 04:06 AM
AR pistols are not NFA, but by your states law they could be a banned assault weapon, if your state is friendly then no different than buying any other handguns.

Rather than an AR pistol I would get a Keltec http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/plr16.htm pistol but get the forend and add to it. Or I would get the Sig 556 pistol, http://www.impactguns.com/store/798681413119.html the AR15 buffer system does not work very well with that short tube instead of the buttstock tube. Also available would be AK47 type pistols.

David Hineline
December 21, 2008, 04:10 AM
You can buy an existing HK SP89 pistol but you can not put the forward K grip on it unless you register it as an AOW. It must remain a single gripped pistol.

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=118670101

freakintoguns
December 21, 2008, 04:35 AM
ok cool. those 5.56 pistols are cool as all get out! need to check to see if theyre legal under NM State Law thanks


also, is it possible to build AR Pistol much like building a AR rifle or Carbine?

jmorris
December 21, 2008, 01:00 PM
also, is it possible to build AR Pistol much like building a AR rifle or Carbine?

Yep, just make dam sure the reciever you use is on paper being a pistol.

http://model1sales.com/catalog-list.cfm?Category=01&Subcat=Pistol&storeid=1

aroundlsu
December 22, 2008, 11:19 AM
As David pointed out again, the closest thing to an MP5K without NFA registration is an SP89.

http://lib.irismedia.org/sait/guns/smg/hk_sp89.jpg

They are currently in the $4,000 range.

Tamara
December 22, 2008, 11:31 AM
SP89's demand a huge premium because:

A) They came into the country in very small numbers before the Bush Ban of '89 took effect, and

B) Probably half of them are being used as host guns for registered sears, because everybody and their brother has the hots for an MP5K or PDW...

mygunsbigger
December 22, 2008, 07:02 PM
I know i have the hots for one... looks like i'll be ponyin' up 4grand or building one real soon...

aroundlsu
December 23, 2008, 02:53 PM
Here is one for sale all set up just like you want:

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/semi4sale.cgi?read=208904

http://i44.tinypic.com/xcn6t1.jpg

Only problem, you can NOT use that foregrip or stock without registering it. He's using it has a sear host for a machine gun. So unless you have an auto sear you must take the foregrip and stock off.

Beretta686
December 23, 2008, 03:24 PM
Is there a certain point where the ATF would say your barrel is too long for a pistol?
For instance if you put a 14.5 inch upper on a pistol is that still a "pistol".
Some places sell their 7.5, 10.5 & 11.5 uppers as "pistol" uppers, but I've never seen a 14.5 advertised as a "pistol" upper.
M1S is like that, in that they'll sell you "pistol" uppers all day w/o seeing your tax stamp, but if you order a 14.5 they'll make you send in a copy of your Form 1/4.

aroundlsu
December 23, 2008, 04:21 PM
Nope. Any length barrel you want on a pistol. If you they make you send a copy of your Form 1 then find another dealer.

HankB
December 28, 2008, 06:43 PM
The second photo is just another AR15 pistol they became popular with a certain crowd that wants short barreled rifles but without the registration. That gun was made as a handgun not shoulder fired from the factory, and as such can never have a buttstock installed unless it gets registered as a short barreled rifle.Actually, I believe a buttstock is legal to attach if a 16+" barrel is attached first. But of course, then the pistol has become a rifle. (Be careful of state laws!)

David Hineline
December 28, 2008, 09:41 PM
Yes as long at you go over NFA length a pistol can goto a rifle and back to a pistol.