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scorpion_tyr
December 17, 2008, 11:32 PM
I'm not into NFA firearms myself but I have a question for you guys. After a long discussion with a good friend about perfect home defense weapons. We put all other factors like finances, the shooter, etc out of the equation and just focused on the weapon. And then his wife of all people threw in something neither of us had even considered. From what I know it sounds like a great idea, but since I don't know that much, what do you guys think? MP-5 chambered in .40 S&W, loaded with JHP's, and set on 3 round burst for home defense?


Oh, and the "his wife of all people" is not a bash on women. His wife is just not a "gun" person at all.

David Hineline
December 17, 2008, 11:47 PM
This would be about the most expensive variation of the MP5 one could choose as a non LE US owner.

The 9mm MP5 was quite popular with LE entry teams, but 9mm hardball was often over penetrating housing structure due to slow heavy bullets. MP5s started comming in 40SW and 10mm but the guns broke and HK stopped doing any repairs on them, so all dept's virtually dumped them. Most depts. went to .223 weapons and a bullet that breaks up on impact to reduce damage to other than the target due to shoot through. With the price of ammo some are holding onto thier 9mm guns but .223 really rules the entry weapons of today.

If going for a burst gun I would go with a short .223 M16 and silencer to prevent the hearing damage a burst of .223 from an 11,5" gun is going to cause.

The .223 bullet will fragment and not leave the house, or do much damage on the other side of the sheetrock. Of course bullet selection is also important.

bigghoss
December 18, 2008, 05:13 PM
I think something in .45acp would be the way to go for an SMG but for the best HD option a shotgun will almost always win out. maybe an AA12:D

scorpion_tyr
December 18, 2008, 06:31 PM
That's what I was going for, haven't seen too many people shot. I just imagined a quick 3 round burst wouldn't be as messy as a 12g and maybe not as overpentrating. I used .40 cause I don't know of any 3 round burst .45 ACP SMG's out there. I figure there are, I just can't name them.

David Hineline
December 18, 2008, 06:38 PM
Any machinegun is a burst gun if you let off the trigger.

Hkmp5sd
December 18, 2008, 07:06 PM
Right manufacturer, wrong model. You need the HK UMP. It comes in 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP.

http://www.heckler-koch.de/media/Products/Submachine_guns/ump.jpg

You just need to add to your factors to ignore (finances, the shooter, etc.) the fact the .gov won't let you have a post-86 machinegun.

Three44s
December 19, 2008, 11:37 PM
I think that a short barreled shotgun (even an NFA) would be a better choice for the money ..... and in court ..... less sticky!

Three 44s

T. O'Heir
December 20, 2008, 12:46 AM
"...loaded with JHP's..." JHP's are a recipe for a jam if the semi-auto or FA firearm isn't set up to feed 'em. In any case, even with a 3 round burst, shooting a sub-gun, accurately, takes a great deal of training and practice. Spray and pray doesn't work with them either. Your buddy's lady has been watching too many TV shows and movies.

hknut
December 20, 2008, 04:40 AM
Having shot a full auto UMP in .45. It don't take much too control. I taught a 90 pound girl who had never fired a gun before, to shoot it in 1 day.

akviper
December 20, 2008, 05:41 AM
The MP5 is a great entry gun and with proper training makes a great house gun. As mentioned the 40s had problems but I ran probably ten thousand rounds of Federal and Winchester 9mm hollow points without a single failure. I didn't keep track of the hardball but it was a bunch.

With the 9mm you have recoil similar to a 22 and a more controllable two round burst is available by exchanging lowers if you want to go that route. The gun is light and short making it easy to move around the house. The recoil and muzzle blast is nil making it more user friendly indoors if used without suppression.

Time moved on and the 5.56 with a suppressor has pretty much replaced the MP5. We tested the UMP and found it offered nothing over the MP5. The stock flexed when pulled into the shoulder and it generally seemed a backward step for a subgun.

I carried an MP5 for thirteen years on an entry team and miss it. Using a Title II firearm for home defense could be very expensive as it would probably spend several years in an evidence room if used for self defense.

There are HK94s out there if you can do without the full auto. We shot our MP5s and M4s on semi 99% of the time.

44 AMP
December 24, 2008, 12:19 PM
If you ever use a gun like that in a home deffense shooting, the cops are going to take it. Anddepending on you rlocal DA, even if you are completely cleared (or no charges filed), you may play hell getting it back.

It may cost you as much as the gun or more in legal fees to get it returned, and depending on the political climate where you live, you may never get it returned, only a check for the "value" of the gun. And you may even have to take them to court to get that check, and get it for the market value of your gun.

And, even if you get it back, it may no longer be in the same condition it was when they took it. These things have happened with "regular" guns, and I don't think one of those "evil" assault weapons/machineguns is going to get any easier treatment. your call, good luck.

444
December 24, 2008, 01:07 PM
I am no expert on the subject although I do own a SMG (not an HK unfortunately) and I do compete with my SMG for what that is worth.

Out of all the guns I own, in any kind of SHTF senario whether it be a home invasion or thermonuclear war, my SMG would probably be one of the last things I grabbed out of the safe.

PTK
December 24, 2008, 03:51 PM
my SMG would probably be one of the last things I grabbed out of the safe.

Why?

Also, would you grab your silencers? I know they'd be VERY high on my list of things to grab, for me at least.

Hkmp5sd
December 24, 2008, 06:57 PM
If it wasn't for having a $20,000 gun confiscated, my suppressed MP5 would be my first choice for home protection.

RJay
December 24, 2008, 07:04 PM
A selfjdefense shooting will turn into a long legal battle if you use any type of machine gun. Unless the other guy has one, you are going to be in a world of hurt. To each his own and you can believe anything you want, but that's the jway the world turns. :(

Hkmp5sd
December 24, 2008, 07:08 PM
Can you document a single case where a homeowner used a registered machinegun in a legal self-defense shooting and was arrested/charged because of the weapon used?

PTK
December 24, 2008, 07:36 PM
Hkmp5sd

There aren't any, and you know that. ;)

444
December 24, 2008, 08:55 PM
"Quote:
my SMG would probably be one of the last things I grabbed out of the safe.

Why?

Also, would you grab your silencers? I know they'd be VERY high on my list of things to grab, for me at least."



Because I don't think the submachine gun is as effective as a rifle or shotgun.
I don't shoot the SMG as good as a rifle or shotgun.
The SMG doesn't have a light, an optic, or a suppressor on it.
The SMG isn't as versitile as a rifle or shotgun.

Basically I have almost no respect for the SMG. It is a fun toy. I enjoy our local matches. I stand there at these matches thinking to myself: If I had a semi-auto AR15 I could clear these targets in a fraction of the time with half the ammo it will take me to do it with the SMG.

Not to sidetrack the thread but yes, If I had to leave my house for any kind of SHTF senario I would definitely take suppressors.

FireForged
December 24, 2008, 10:00 PM
I enjoy reading the debate over these things but honestly, this question easily becomes over intellectualized.........

Far too much consideration being thrown into minor points of advantage or disadvantage. Find a weapon you are proficient with in close quarters and factor in what concerns you have about over-penetration and just make your best decision.

Firepower!
December 25, 2008, 06:47 AM
I have Mp5 and Mp5-SD.

I am getting rid of my Mp5-SD and it's with a dealer. I kept the regular MP5 because I need the noise as a deterent as much as I want to kill the hostile in the house.

I think MP5 is very handy and easily taken around the corners in the house. The 9mm bullet is lethal enough yet I dont have to worry about over-penertration. The rapid fire on MP5 is quick enough to bring down hostile immediately. The weapon is very controlable since it heavy and fires pistols rounds. There is a reason why it is being used by many special forces around the world, and now for so many years.


I am selling SD because I am getting a trade (not because I think its not effective in HD) which will bring in a Mauser+Luger+Walther P38+455 WS+Ak47 double body. BTW whatever the double body is.


AND I would like to know how many people here have MP5s who are rendering advice and what is there combat experience. Shooting shotgun indoors is not what I call prudent self defense measures.

PTK
December 25, 2008, 10:16 AM
Shooting shotgun indoors is not what I call prudent self defense measures.

Agreed. I don't even leave my 12" barreled 870 out of the safe anymore, the AR-15 with silencer is my HD weapon.

444

Thanks for the reply, I thought you were saying you didn't like the idea of ANY SMG, not just yours. I'm guessing you have something along the lines of a MAC10 or M11/9?

444
December 25, 2008, 12:27 PM
Yes I am saying that I don't like the idea of any submachine, not just mine (for any practical purpose other than recreation).

I can't think of a MORE prudent self defense measure than firing a shotgun indoors.

The submachinegun I own is a Sterling. I used to own a Sten. Both fine submachineguns as submachineguns go.

Over the years I have fired many, if not most of the submachineguns ever made. I have fired numerous MP5s as well as the UMP. Here is a link to our local subgun match results. It is kind of interesting to see. Just like any other sport, it is the shooter that makes the difference, not the gun. Most of the guys at this match have been shooting this match for years. Some probably 10 years or more. They are seasoned competitors. http://vegasshooters.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=subgun

PTK
December 25, 2008, 02:07 PM
Well, to each his own. I don't see the wisdom in a manually reloaded 5 shot weapon, even if it IS 12ga, especially because of the noise and blast. I'm happier having my silenced AR-15 handy at home rather than any shotgun I own.

444
December 25, 2008, 02:34 PM
This kind of stuff can be debated until the cows come home, and it has been debated countless times already.

I have nothing against an AR15, or a suppressed AR15: either is infinitely better than ANY submachinegun ever made for ANY purpose whatever.

As far as a home defense situation, I don't see any disadvantage to having a loud, five shot, manual loaded weapon. Your AR15 is also certainly a very good choice. If you life is in danger and you have determined that your only means of survival is to shoot, noise and blast are going to be the least of your worries.

If I could only choose one weapon for defensive purposes it would certainly be an AR15. Since I am not currently in that siutation, I will take the shotgun for inside the house.
I never really thought about it, but I sort of have a shotgun obsession. I have a 20" 870 with the 9 volt Surefire dedicated foreend light. I have a 14" 870 with the 6 volt Surefire dedicated foreend light. I have a 13" Browning A-5. I have a Serbu Super Shorty (6" 870): tax stamp pending for about three months now. And I am supposed to get a short barreled Remington Model 11 (not NFA short, 18" or 20" - I haven't actually seen it yet) this afternoon in trade for a '06 Mauser. If you had asked me if I was a big fan of shotguns I would have said no. But I was showing off my stuff to a guy last week and he brought up how many shotguns I have (short defensive type shotguns: I do own a couple hunting/sporting shotguns of course).
He said, this stuff is cool but I don't see the point of a lot of it. I said, what do you mean specifically ? He said, well you have four "sawed off" shotguns. I started laughing and realized I had never really thought that much about it.

MeekAndMild
December 25, 2008, 03:53 PM
Geez. Lawyers are gonna have a field day picking the bones of anybody who actually does shoot a burgler with an SMG. Not to mention the fact that the police normally impound whatever gun was used in self defense shooting until after the grand jury votes on whether or not to pursue the case. :eek:

My personal opinion is that a person who owns a machine gun would do better running the burgler through with a steak knife.

Beretta686
December 25, 2008, 06:30 PM
In a theoretical world, sure an MP5 would be a kick-ass HD weapon and certainly would get the job done.

But back in reality......I think some are making the common mistake of seeing NFA items as practical self-defense weapons, rather than awesome, fun (and $$$) toys. Blowing a bad guy away with a SBS, SBR or especially an SMG just isn't going to look as "clean" as shooting the guy with a regular 'ole 870. Not very logical, since a clean shoot should be a clean shoot, but if you get some anti-gun DA or grand jury you could be in a world of hurt.

BUT IIRC correctly there was some dude down in Florida who took on some intruders with a S&W 9mm SMG and had no trouble with the Cops, so you never know.

For me though, there is no way in hell, I'm going to be using my MAC-10 SMG (like I'd hit anything anyways....) or Saiga 12 SBS for SD unless Terminator Machines are rising or Mexican Paratroopers are falling from the sky to retake Texas. :eek:

Socrates
December 25, 2008, 07:30 PM
The irony is a bit dripping. IIRC, a former employee of H&K was tailed home, while being shot at, by some meth freaks, from a gun show. The guy had just bought a machine gun, and, drove to his place of work, parking lot. He jumped out of the truck, grabbed the machine gun out of the back, and put a warning burst in front of the bad guy. The bad guy committed suicide, forcing him to shoot the guy. The DA filed charges, and, after loosing his job, and a couple hundred thousand dollars, he was acquitted, or found not guilty.

That is the only instance I know of, where a submachine gun was used for ANY defense, or crime.

That said, I can't imagine anything much more effective then a 45 caliber burst from a Mac 10, with a suppressor.

With no recoil to speak of, I would think it would be accurate enough at home defense ranges, though the rather heavy bolt, and heavy trigger aren't exactly target quality.

Problem is, most subs I've played with did NOT like hollow points. Ball only. Wonder how that Federal ammo that starts out as ball, and, spreads out would work in a sub?


I'm NOT sold on a shotgun, simply because of the recoil. Semi auto battle rifles, or, any of the surplus carbine guns with 30-06 type ballistics are proven, and, have 1/4 the recoil of 00 buck, in a light, handy shotgun.

444
December 25, 2008, 07:57 PM
I think you are mixing up two incidents or alleged incidents.

The one you are talking about was in Virginia. That was an AC556

There was another story of a gun dealer someplace that shot some people who were breaking in his shop with a S&W 76.

9mmkungfu
December 25, 2008, 08:01 PM
Wasn't that a Ruger AC-556?

Socrates
December 26, 2008, 12:00 AM
I think that's it, and, the guy opened his own knife company.
Anyone have the name of the person, or case?
Any links?

Socrates
December 26, 2008, 12:08 AM
I think that's it, and, the guy opened his own knife company.
Anyone have the name of the person, or case?
Any links?

nikuailewokuaile
December 26, 2008, 12:11 AM
Has anyone bought this type of sling shot before that holds the amo in the handle? http://www.liangdianup.com/sporting_1.htm
this company has free shipping to anywhere in the world and they guarantee delivery to Australia. I heard that sling shots
are ok to sell in Australia as long as you say they are being used to toss bait in the water when you go fishing, any truth
to thatone?

Socrates
December 26, 2008, 05:33 AM
:confused: