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jckeffer
December 10, 2008, 09:32 PM
I have a Pedersoli Kodiak Double Rifle in 58 cal.( 1:48 twist I believe) and I'm interested in powder charges. I've tried several different powder charges with this rifle and found 90gr ff very accurate with 290gr round ball (consistent 3 round 5” groups at 100 yards). However, I've yet to find something that works with well conicals. I’ve tried several different conicasl from 460gr to 525 and powder charges from 80gr ff to 110gr ff. I’ve cast concicals with a Lymans’ mold (460gr) in both hard and soft lead. Still, I’ve yet to find a combination that comes close to the round ball accuracy. I’d like to be able to hunt with the larger conicals.

I’m also interested in what people think the maximum powder charge for this rifle should be. I contacted Pedersoli’s factory in Italy and they said that they couldn’t give me a maximum charge because the blackpowder they use is different???. They only thing I’ve been able to find says that 120 gr ff is the maximum for a .58 cal blackpowder muzzler.

Can anybody help?

Rusty.it
December 11, 2008, 08:16 AM
I have meet many time mr Pedersoli and mr Chiappa of armisport, i made the same question and i havn't had a real answer on this, they say that this info is dangerous if it start to turn around the muzzleload people :(

Every single arms product here in Italy, or imported from other country, go to BNP, a governative structure, for a proof forced test, all the small marks on a weapon product in Italy are put by BNP after the test, a rumors say that they use a 30% of load more of a maximum load for smokeless arms, i don't know if they made the same for black!
BNP work also for normal citizen that have doubt about an old arm or about his personal reload cartridge, they certificate the safety!
Sorry for poor english

ciao
Rusty

hillbille
December 11, 2008, 08:58 AM
when I first started shooting bp someone once told me maximum grains was twice the caliber, this seems a little light to me as iI have occasionally shot 120gr out of my fifty cal renegade, maybe occasionally is the key word, put a white sheet out in front of the bench you are shooting from if the load is to big there will be unburned powder on the sheet, just back down till all the powder burns, or up till it starts blowing out unburned powder that would be maximum efficient load. anything larger and you are just wasting powder.

arcticap
December 11, 2008, 05:48 PM
This TC Sidelock Manual PDF indicates the maximum recommended powder charges for their .58 single barrel guns.
One page 77, the maximum load is 120 grains ffg with a patched round ball.
On page 80, the maximum load is 120 grains ffg with a 555 - 560 grain lead bullet.

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/Shooting_TC_Side_Lock_Black_Powder_Guns.pdf

I thought that most folks who strive for target accuracy with .58 conicals limit their powder charges to 60-65 grains. Then let the weight of the lead projectile perform the rest of the work on the game animal.
Accuracy is more important than velocity with large, heavy projectiles and that load should reach out to about 100 yards.

jckeffer
December 12, 2008, 05:53 PM
Duplicate

jckeffer
December 12, 2008, 05:57 PM
60 grains ffg is the minimum load for 58 cal round ball (290gr). I wonder if it would even get a 500+ grain conical out of the barrel.
The reason I would like to use conicals is the difference in energy.

From what I've found about 58 cal ballistics the conicals produce more that twice the engery (thus stopping power) than round ball.

525gr conical/90gr ffg = MV 1275, Ft/Lbs engery 1895
575gr conical/80gr ffg = MV 1090, Ft/Lbs energy 1517
290gr RB/80gr ffg = MV 1075, Ft/lbs energy 744

Which is why I'm trying to find out the best charges (and bullets - no sabots) for 58 cal.

arcticap
December 13, 2008, 02:53 AM
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298759&highlight=.58+minnie+load

That's similar to the original load for U.S. Springfield rifles and the effect of the minnie can be devastating. At least that's what an N-SSA skirmisher with the CT 20th regiment told me earlier this evening when I asked him.
Only the individual rifle can say what the best charge really is. :)

Jbar4Ranch
December 14, 2008, 01:39 AM
I used to regularly shoot 140 grains of FF with a patched round ball out of an H&R Huntsman, until I read some old H&R literature that recommended 100 grains as a max charge.

jaguarxk120
December 15, 2008, 09:29 PM
If you go to the Pedersoli web site and look under support they have a pdf file that has what you want. They list every firearm made by them listing suggested starting loads and max. loads. Including the type of bullet. In your case they suggest a round ball. The pdf file is down loadable so you can save it.
You will have to work up a load finding the the best grouping of both barrels, a double rifle is a law unto it self. Shooting offhand is the best, as a bench rest will change the point of impact because the rifle recoils differently.

darkgael
December 16, 2008, 07:53 PM
Some years ago there was an article in the "Double Gun Journal" (Spring 2002) by a fellow who had taken a ML .58 double rifle (a Kodiak) to Africa. He hunted and took Zebra, Kudu, Impala. His load was 5 drams of FFg BP (140 grains) and a 550 grain conical.
His experience developing loads was that as the powder charge/velocity in his gun increased accuracy improved.
Pete

longranger
December 19, 2008, 07:45 PM
1:48 twist rate in .58 cal maybe to slow to stabilize a conical at effective ranges.

jckeffer
December 20, 2008, 12:18 AM
Thanks jaguarxk120, the last time I visited the website they didn't have the .pdf file (looking more closely at the file it was just created in Oct 2008). At least this gives me the max loads 'assuming' that Italian Black Powder is similar to US Black Powder. I guess I'll just have to keep experimenting with different combinations of conical/powder loads till I find what works best.

Stoney
December 20, 2008, 08:53 PM
I shoot my.72 caliber Kodiak Double rifle with between 90 and 140 grains of GOEX FF using conicals I cast with very good results. I had a mould custom made for the conical that weighs 1.525 oz's or about 669 grains.( See pic below). The .72 conical is beside a .58 caliber REAL bullet cast for my 1861 Springfield. I wonder if your .58 conicals are the right bullet for your rifles twist, or were they made for more traditional rifles, like Hawken rifles or Civil War Springfields or Enfields. I would bet the problem is your conical, not your powder charge.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c119/pstone001/100_2459.jpg

Rusty.it
December 22, 2008, 04:31 AM
Italian Black Powder is similar to US Black Powder.
In Italy the most used is Swiss powder, the second choice are french BP and pow.ex from germany (Pedersoli is dealer of Pow.Ex for Italy for example)
The swiss is the hottest and clean of the bunch, french (made by Vectan) is quite good but a little more more dirty (fouling), Pow-ex made by Wano is the less energized of the group, Geox isn't imported and i can't make a compare, someone say that's a middle way between swiss and french!
Personally i have adopted Swiss like standard, i burn in my rifles and pistols 5-6 kilos (12-13 lbs) of BP at year :D
ciao
Rusty