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Elite Doberman
December 10, 2008, 07:19 PM
Ok a couple things first:

I eat alot of dead animals. (about to eat one now!)

I know someone has to do it.

I know that an unchecked deer population poses a hazard.

I don't have anything against hunters.


Nevertheless, I have a sensitive spot for animals, and I think shooting a deer would make me sad.
Perhaps that makes me a hypocrite because I eat meat.

I'm NOT trying to bash hunters or get all PETA on your asses :p , just want to understand the mindset.

Does it bother you at all when the deer dies? Any time I lost any pet I had it bothered me alot, and I think I might feel the same way if I was to shoot a deer.

wpcexpert
December 10, 2008, 07:25 PM
It has never bothered me to kill an animal. Especially when it comes to game animals. They are all going to my table. Deer...never felt bad about whackin one, or three. I eat them and they taste good.

Of course, that's how I was raised. The land provides. Eat what you kill (within reason). Respect the land and it's owners.

VaFisher
December 10, 2008, 07:27 PM
Deer are by no means a pet and no it does not make me feel bad but rather the opposite because it feels good.
If it bothers you don't hunt, leave it to someone else.
One more, if you eat meat then think of it this way, someone killed the animal in which you get the meat from but the main difference is they are fenced, fattened up and the killed where a deer run free until they die or get killed by a hunter or other means.

Doyle
December 10, 2008, 07:48 PM
The only time killing an animal bothers me is if I (or someone I see) makes a shot that doesn't result in a good, quick kill. Contrary to the movies, very few things die immediately. There is almost always some running/kicking/squirming etc until the brain dies. However, a bad shot can result in more of that than is needed. A good, ethical hunter always does everything in his power to make sure the game is dispacted as cleanly as possible.

One more thing while I'm at it. I'm also bothered by the slob hunters who will kill a deer, cut off the antlers, and leave a perfectly good carcass to rot - usually because they are too lazy to be bothered with cleaning the animal.

JonnyReb
December 10, 2008, 07:50 PM
My parents were hippies. Dad went to Viet Nam and came back not a hippy. Mom never quite got past it. I was raised by a vegetarian,card carrying peta member mother and my Dad was the opposite. He had me hunting with him by the time i was 3 or 4. You have to understand how devisive that all was. Whew..

So personally, i live, breathe, eat and sleep all adventures outdoors, but hunting in particular. As i was exposed to this as a young one. But i am certainly VERY sympathetic to the feelings of the animals i hunt as i was also raised to know that they have them.

I find that 99% of all my enjoyment involving hunting has nothing to do with killing anything. Studying the quarry, gearing up, the weapons involved and the proficiency reuired to use them take up almost all of the time involved in the chase. The chase itself takes up the rest of the time, with that time being so wonderfully spent out in the beautiful outdoors. Worth every moment and expense it takes to get there.

The kill itself is harder for me now, as a child i would kill indiscriminately, with no thought as to pain or suffering on the animals part. Now of course i know better and do everything in my power to insure kills as fast as possible.

What allows me to do what could be in fact interpreted as a cruel, barbaric way of providing cheap thrills, is the reality that all of us who use leather products, eat meat or even use glue contribute to the death of an animal. It's just one that their hands are washed clean of and one they didn't have to witness. The animals trucked to and killed by slaughterhouses know fear that 99% of my kills never know. If we do our part they never know what hit them and we are taking personal responsibility for our own substinance, knowing it is harvested as a clean animal with no steroids or drugs ingested, lived it's life freely and probably made it through the better part of its natural lifespan.

Do i feel bad when i kill a deer? Yes, in a reflective way as i take into full consideration the taking of a life. It never lingers though,as the fast harvest of an animal involves no real suffering as best i can tell. The tenderloin steaks and jerky strips don't make me sad for sure and at the end of every summer i can feel the urge start to kick in. J.R.

dalegribble
December 10, 2008, 07:54 PM
deer are beautiful and lovely to watch and they should be respected. harvesting an animal for food should not be a bother to you. if it is then you should stick to supermarket meat, but there is no difference really dead is dead.

i do wonder about some of these horn hunters you see on tv. i mean it seems like they take 50 deer a year throughout the country. i can only dream about drawing a deer and an elk tag in the same year, let alone be successful. I don't know about the tv hunters but i only have so much room in my freezer. when you watch the same guy getting a new deer every week it seems kind of excessive to me. if i see jeff foxworthy kill another game farm deer i think i'll puke.

hunting should be more than the killing of the animal, or the meat, or the trophy. it should be about the experience and even if you never see an animal the experience should still be good. truth be told there are alot of hunters that see plenty of deer and never pull a trigger, they have their trophys it is the experience that is important to them.

Brian Pfleuger
December 10, 2008, 07:55 PM
It saddens me to see an animal suffer because they do have pain but I have no sadness or remorse from a clean kill. Animals are not people. It is a mistake to attribute human emotions and "incentives" to them. They do not know what death is, they do not have mommies and daddies and brothers and sisters that will miss them. They know the instinct that helps them survive. Even the "fear" that we ascribe to animals is only an instinct. They are not thinking something like "Oh no! That human is going to kill me! I must escape!"

bswiv
December 10, 2008, 07:58 PM
The following is a email and response between myself and one of my "liberal" friends. In his inital email he admits so much, that he is a liberal. But I will say this of the man: I've stood by the fire and slurped many a oyster and watched more than a time or two as he enjoyed a hunk of bar-b-cued wild hog or a piece of fried vinison.

The question he asks was engendered by a picture I posted of a very large gator we had just caught. And I might add part of that gator was donated for a fund raising event that benifited a enviromential cause.

So here it is. I hope it helps you with your question..........

=============================================================================================================


This is question from my bleeding heart liberal perspective.


I ask you because I’m curious, and this is in no way a criticism. I don’t have a problem with hunting. And I know you won’t think of me as weird for asking…..


When you see a creature like this, one that has lived a long life, do you feel any regrets? Feel any empathy for the gator? Any thoughts like wow, I wish I hadn’t killed this guy?


For me, I would have to go through that line of questions—that’s why I don’t hunt.


It really is a huge gator…

Neil

==========

In answer....

I've had, and to some extent still do have, all the "emotional" responses that engender the questions you ask. A person would have to be, at least this is my opinion, very cold indeed to not question it all. And they'd have to be very shallow to not be impressed and in aw of such a magnificent creature.

Of course this is in the context of the modern world where we are disjunct of the everyday killing that goes on to produce our substance. This is where the logical part comes in. I know full well that, even in the instance of vegans, the production of our food involves much death. It's just a fact of life even if we are distanced from it.

In the instance of the gator, and the same holds true for the hogs and deer ( And I should say also for the fish and shrimp and the ......you get the point. ) the animal gets a sort of respect and reverence and is afforded a level of appreciation for it's given life that I think is never accorder a farmed animal. I mean who thinks for a moment about the chicken sandwich at Mc. Ds or the hamburger at Wendy's? But that gator, and those hogs and deer, they do get it........

And of course we must admit that all things are going to die and that evolution has structured the human predator as part of the system and that we are not immoral in being what evolution has made us. More than that I find it odd that we are the only animal that has the capacity to actually question the morality of being what we are. And of course we are also the only animal that has the capacity to mold our evolution by our conscious actions. All of which gets us into philosophy, a subject of which I am ignorant......

So do I question? Yes.
Is it normal to question? Yes.

What I'm left with though is the notion that for a great many the modern world allows them a luxury which our not to distant ancestors did not have and that is to pretend, for it is only a pretense if the logic is carried to it's fullest, that they are somehow not the most fearful creature the planet has ever spawned. And that other creatures will and must die at our hands ( At least for the time being, that is until science advances far enough so that we can eat rocks. ) and if I was a animal I would, given the choice, take the life of a wild gator killed by another predator, a predator who will respect and revere and appreciate me for what I was, over the life of any animal in any cage in any place on this planet.

And if you're not confused by this I can add more................


----- Original Message -----
From: Armingeon, Neil
To: Ben Williams
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 5:19 PM
Subject: A question


Ben



This is question from my bleeding heart liberal perspective.



I ask you because I’m curious, and this is in no way a criticism. I don’t have a problem with hunting. And I know you won’t think of me as weird for asking…..



When you see a creature like this, one that has lived a long life, do you feel any regrets? Feel any empathy for the gator? Any thoughts like wow, I wish I hadn’t killed this guy?



For me, I would have to go through that line of questions—that’s why I don’t hunt.



It really is a huge gator…



neil




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ben Williams [mailto:bswiv@comcast.net]
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 12:13 PM
To: Armingeon, Neil; Orth, James C; Jimmy Orth (E-mail 2)
Subject: You have received photos from Adobe Photoshop Album Starter Edition 3.0



The gator ribs for the oyster roast arrived this morning. Hauled this one out of Lake George at about 6 AM, 12' 6" and 5 to 600 pounds.



Tell me who is cooking the ribs and I'll go ahead and get them to them.



Ben


The sender has included tags, so you can do more with these photos. Download Photoshop (R) Album Starter Edition-Free!
http://www.adobe.com/aboutstarteredition

tangara
December 10, 2008, 08:56 PM
Ok I am not following you reasoning here?

You say you eat animals? Are we talking store bought meat like chicken, fish, beef and pork. Or are we talking about small game like ducks, squirrels and rabbits?

Here is my take; I do buy animal meat from grocery stores be it beef, chicken & pork or others. But my in-laws are farmers and we do also raise are own beef and sometimes chickens and pork. We do butcher and process are own animals. It is quiet an interesting process, for beef and pork it is a two weekend project. The first weekend is for killing and the second is for processing. The killing weekend pertains of shooting the animals in the brain for an instant and painless death. For beef we use an old Winchester 25-20 right between the eyes which drops them in there tracks. For hogs we use a standard .22 long rifle bullet at the base of the ear that lead into the brain. We then skin and gut the carcasses. After they are split and washed they are hung up for aging for about a week depending on the weather. The next weekend we will cut up the meat into burger, steaks, chops and etc. The thing about butchering your animal is that you have control over what cuts you want and how it is done. Although we kill and process the meat outside and in a machine shop I would say that the sanitary conditions are far better than most slaughter houses. What do you get by doing this your self? First it is you animal that you are dealing with you know how it was raised, fed, butchered and processed. The cost is your raising these animals is feed, any medical expenses, etc. You time is not usually included it is a part of the process. What you are not paying is the other person to raise this animal to sell at market and the middlemen associate with the processing and distribution of this animal. Ok this is enough off my soap box on domestic meat.

Wild game is another issue. In the past wild game was considered a luxury of subsistence, why because it was free meat in a sense. For a relatively inexpensive way to acquire protein in your diet for reality low cost. You did not have to raise the wild game be it deer, ducks, rabbits. Mostly the only cost was associated with buying ammunition and a small fee for license. Most households had some form a firearm that was used for all purposes. Mostly it was a low cost of protein at a relatively small cost.

Now if it is the killing you are worried about is it better to be a wild animal that is killed with out ever knowing what hit him or a farmer that kills his own animals with them not knowing what hits them. Or a slaughter house that has 75 animals lined up in a row and being killed and witness by every animal behind them. As far as hunters go I think the vast majority kill there quarry in a fast humane method. As far as the farmers are concerned it has gotten better. The used to use sledge hammers because them bullets cost money. It is hard to skin a cow when it is trying to get up and walk away. I am not saying that animals have feelings but if several animals start dropping dead around them they get kind of worked up. I hope this helps answer you question and puts things into a little perspective.

Swampghost
December 10, 2008, 10:08 PM
From a biological standpoint, few wild animals die in their sleep. The weaker ones are picked off by predators be it fish, fowl or mammals and the attacks appear grisly in most cases but it's not so.

Fish have primitive nervous systems and not enough brain power to diagnose pain. It's more like a 'everything's OK or something's wrong) response to the brain.

Birds are more evolved but I haven't studied their nervous systems very much.

Mammals have very elaborate nervous systems with varying abilities to deal with these inputs (such as pain). Man may be the most complex of all, the jury is still out on Cetaceans (whale family and larger brains). Fortunately mammals have ways of dealing with traumatic injuries with a flood of self induced anesthesia. I've personally suffered through many injuries and can tell you that the initial shock tells you that the REAL pain is going to start in about 20 mins. when all of the natural stuff subsides. I am assuming that these quantities cross over to all mammalian life and most of the kills in the wild are dead well inside of this timeframe.

What makes me sad: Eating a chicken that was raised in a pen eating modern chicken feed. Any other animal raised under the same conditions. Like yourself, I will continue to do so when I can't do any better.

12GaugeShuggoth
December 10, 2008, 10:14 PM
+1 to SwampGhost's last couple lines.

Elite,

I am an avid hunter, and an animal rights proponent (no I do not endorse PETA), and yes I feel somewhat guilty after having taken an animal (in this case deer being the example)......forgive me but I just don't consider myself any better than the deer I'm hunting. To me life is life, I don't care if it's my own or a strangers' or that of a deer or a squirrel.

But as in all things there are necessary evils in life, and for me this just happens to be one of them. If hunters didn't harvest a number of deer every year, then there would be more deer being hit on the highway and more deer fighting for the same food. To ensure that the greater population is healthy a small amount MUST be harvested. It is because I want to see the deer live healthy lives that I hunt.........that and the fact that I love venison doesn't hurt either. :)

As a hunter I try my hardest to ensure that every kill will be a clean and fast one, to the best of my abilities. I try to utilize as much of my kill as I can, and I try to encourage my fellow hunters to do the same. This also concerns the manner in which an animal is killed. Only by killing the animal yourself can you truly know how it died.

The problem is that in the hunting community, if you admit that you feel empathy for an animal you've killed, you are considered to be a sissie, a liberal, a hippie, or whatever term is deemed derogatory at the time. Apparently you're supposed to think you are the top-dog, the alpha-male, that you are superior and more deserving of life than the creature you have killed. To the people who declare that no animal has feelings or fear or emotion in general, my only question is:
"How exactly have you come to this conclusion? Have you talked with an animal and asked if they had emotion? Have you conducted a brain scan to determine that the animal in question is incapable of experiencing emotion?"

Life is what it is, and different people see things differently. Few of us probably get even the smallest portion correct, and I'm not saying I do either. For anyone who disagrees with anything I've posted, I'm not in any way saying that your own statements or beliefs are wrong. I'm just stating a different take on the same activity that we all enjoy taking part in.

P.S.--- I type all of that, and for the record I killed a 170 lb. doe this afternoon, had venison for dinner too. Will post picture if requested. :D

zahnzieh
December 10, 2008, 10:29 PM
In response to the poster "eating meat" - I would ask - would you ever eat meat again if you had to look into each farm-raised animal's eyes as it is killed? Would seeing a calf, chicken or turkey seem as cute in the moments before going to slaughter? Dont we give these animals too many human attributes, overly sentimentalizing their existences? On the other hand, how many times have we thoughtlessly consumed the flesh of these animals without a second of remorse or thanks for their sacrifice?. And isnt it easy to do so?? As a hunter I choose to enter the cycle of Life, I do not want to shy away from these emotions but to acknowlege and celebrate them as real - not a video game! I try not to kill needlessly or cruelly. I celebrate the animal's life that I have taken and the Creator who has provided it. Personally, sitting in the woods gives me insights into Nature, its connection to us humans and Life's eternal struggles. As I get older I crave these "real" experiences. I think this is a more honest way to live. Thats my 2 cents:o

rem870hunter
December 10, 2008, 10:31 PM
i've had 2 dogs,3 hamsters die many years ago. do i miss them? yes i do.

an animal that i shot with the intention on eating it,i do not feel sorry at all.

an animal i shot that is a pest,or in self defense i would not feel sorry either.
me and mine must eat to survive, so an animal or 2 or 3 dying, and us eating it is better than me or mine dying of starvation. you can't get all the nutrients and energy needed to survive from plants alone.

Sarge
December 10, 2008, 10:36 PM
If I didn't want any living thing to die, I wouldn't turn a gun on it; whether the reason is to make meat, eliminate a pest or in self defense.

If it don't fit one of those categories, I don't bother it.

Dr. Strangelove
December 10, 2008, 10:41 PM
Does it bother you at all when the deer dies?

Nope. Not at all. But, it doesn't mean I relish killing, it's just the natural progression of the hunt. I'm happy for the meat in the freezer and for the success of the hunt, but I don't get my jollies by killing. Better me eating it than a coyote or buzzard!


Any time I lost any pet I had it bothered me alot, and I think I might feel the same way if I was to shoot a deer.

What??? I almost never shoot my pets and eat them. It always bothers me quite a bit to shoot one of my cats and eat him.:confused: (joking) Why do you compare the shooting of a deer to the death of a pet? May as well be sad when a light bulb blows because it reminds you of our life-giving sun, which; when it ends it's days as a supernova, will immolate our beloved planet earth.;)

Nevertheless, I have a sensitive spot for animals, and I think shooting a deer would make me sad.
Perhaps that makes me a hypocrite because I eat meat.

Nope, because of:

I eat alot of dead animals. (about to eat one now!)

I know someone has to do it.

I know that an unchecked deer population poses a hazard.

I don't have anything against hunters

Sounds like you know where meat comes from, know deer are game animals, but don't want to kill them yourself. No problem.


From what I'm reading, either you're trying to stir things up, or you have a legitimate question such as "How do people who care about animals feel about killing them while hunting?" Is that more what you wanted to ask? It's a fine question, but I still wonder how you related the death of a game animal to the death of a pet.

hogdogs
December 10, 2008, 11:27 PM
As others have said.... I do not kill for the thrill of killing. I also have a soft spot for wildlife in general and can sit unarmed and watch the cute little critters playing and such all day. In the back of my mind, though, I am also realizing that I am a predator and that those cute and cuddly animals are dang lucky I am not hungry nor on the hunt at the moment. I also have a great disdain for myself if I do not get the clean kill I strive for! Kind of makes me feel like a lion that can't quite clamp down on the prey animals throat for as quick of a kill as I should get. But I can strive to improve and learn from my mistakes.
Because of this thread I thought long and hard and the most regretful kills I made were fish...:o I found a location and method of catching giant sized Black Drum. I killed 2 before I learned they were not good table fare at that size and that they were likely 40 or more years old. Now if I had known that I had caught the world record fish and gotten it registered I might have felt a bit better:rolleyes:
Brent

onthejon55
December 11, 2008, 12:21 AM
the way i see it every person has two different emotions that determine whether or not they are a hunter. theres the one side controlled by instinct and a certain barbaric nature that everyone has. its the reason some people can watch hunting shows and laugh. Or the reason people can mow down half a herd of does and not feel a single bit of remorse. the other side is the side that comes out when you see a fawn being attacked by coyotes. its the side that make you sad when you think about yr favorite dog that passed. until you get in the woods and put the crosshairs on a deer theres really no way of telling which emotion rules you.

that being said im the kind of person who can climb into the loft of a barn thats full of pest pigeons and shot 20 of them before i fall on the ground from uncontrolled laughter because the scene of feathers and blood everywhere is too much for me to handle! :D

Scorch
December 11, 2008, 01:09 AM
Elite Doberman-
I understand your concern. You are puzzled by the fact that some of us have these atavistic tendencies and enjoy pursuing game animals (notice I did not say kill game animals, because there is not a guarantee you will get one when you do go out, and hunting is not about the killing. Anyway, on with the show). For me there is a measure of self-sufficiency involved, the pleasure of providing for myself in spite of society's efforts to force us to conform, and the feeling that I am somehow still connected to nature, my ancestors, and the wild animals around me. I get none of that from a piece of meat wrapped in cellophane. I get a similar sense of self-sufficiency by harvesting my own garden.

Non-hunters see the killing as the reason for the hunt, primarily due to Disney and other anti-hunter propaganda. The killing is not a major part of the effort, but the killing does not bother me. I worked in a slaughterhouse for about 3 years, and every day I saw 1,800 +/-animals whacked in the head, bled, skinned, gutted, cut into parts and into the cooler before they even quit twitching. Seriously. You have to kill in order to live, or have someone kill for you. Even vegetarians have to kill in order to eat (because the farmer kills the animals in his crops or they would eat him out of business). In fact, if you don't kill, then someone is doing the killing for you. The only way to avoid killing in order to live is for you to give up and die (and even then you have to kill yourself).

Non-hunters imagine the animals are terrorized by hunters. The animals don't care about hunters. To the animals, you are just another predator, and not a very good one at that, because he usually has spotted you and knows you are there from the moment you walk into his world. But animals are relatively unconcerned unless you come too close, then they run away until they no longer feel you are a threat.

Non-hunters like to go out and look at animals and enjoy them in natural settings, and think hunters are terrible for wanting to kill the animals. The irony of the situation is that those non-hunters are going to areas paid for by hunters with license fees and taxes on firearms and ammunition to look at the animals. Hunters enjoy watching animals too, because they want to understand the animals and how they live. Hunters want all those animals there in order to maintain some semblance of wildness and to keep ecosystems healthy and functioning properly. Non-hunters have a twisted view of nature, seeing it as a large petting zoo where all the animals are friends. Hunters know better (ever seen a 20-lb lamb killed by a 6-lb eagle? Not pretty.).

Non-hunters want hunters to change and behave like they do, and are willing to force hunters to do so if needed. Hunters, on the other hand, want those non-hunters to allow them the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness promised to us by our founding fathers.

Ranger Al
December 11, 2008, 01:47 AM
Feel bad? Nope, they are tasty. Cattle are more of pet then deer, but hey they are tasty too!

Stealff
December 11, 2008, 01:53 AM
It never bothers me to shoot deer or elk, as I know I'm doing it to put food on the table and in the freezer. not to mention the enjoyment of being out in the woods with the quietness and beauty.

hillbillyshooter
December 11, 2008, 02:23 AM
Silly, there is no emotional connection to a deer like a pet. There are two thing I think when I see a deer, "I hope I can get a good shot" and "Dinner!"

aaalaska
December 11, 2008, 03:27 AM
This is a very complex subject,and a simple yes or no won't do,this individual wants to understand us and we should do our best to explain ourselves, to do less invites him or her to join the antis.I am 57 have hunted since I was 9 grew up on a farm where we raised our own beef, chicken, pork, vegetables etc.As such I have killed many animals,each was treated with the greatest respect, a gift of food did I feel anything, yes I took a life, I have always been thankful for that food and opportunity, but to be honest every kill gives me pause, did I do my part well was the kill clean could I have done better.But to question the hunt the kill it's self no. I know the death was the cleanest this animal could have, the alternative was a slow lingering death, I have seen wolf kills long trails of blood an guts where the wolves ripped open the side the guts spilled out as the moose runs finally it falls,not to be killed but to be eaten as it lays waiting on death, I have watched moose die of starvation and disease both take days or weeks and makes one wish they could end the suffering.As to those that are vegans to prevent the animals suffering please spare me, the grain you eat came from land that will never again support wild game ,the subdivision you live in will never again host the trees or prairie grass that sustained millions of animals, as long as man walks the earth we will have a profound effect on all life we can either chose to be an active part of it or close our eyes an pretend we are separate and above it all.sorry for being long winded Alex

458winshooter
December 11, 2008, 03:50 AM
My father passed away recently and he was of a similar thought process.But understand he was born in the 1930's here in east Tennessee and as the oldest in the family he had to contribute to feeding the family.He didn't want to inspire me to hunt because he had to do these things as a boy and wanted better for his family.At 9 or 10 he was given a 22 single shot to hunt rabbits,squirles,and opossum.My grandparents leased land to raise vegtables and raise hogs to sell at the local farmers market.Often that would only pay rent and buy shoes.They picked blackberries and walnuts as well as poke to have other parts of meals.They truly lived off the land even as little as sixty years ago.Now he was proud that he provided a better way of life for me and my brother and sister,and we could eat from the grocery store not having to worry about where the next meal came from.As time goes on more people can afford to do this but not everyone.There are still some people that live off the land in this way today in this area.I and others think that it is a shame that more people in this day and age do not see more of this,to really know what it was like to have to WORK for a living.I wished my father would have been more open about his early life but I think it was an embarassment for him.I think that it would have been a great lesson for folks to know.Some of us want to keep those ideas fresh so we will remember,others still have to live that way today.And some of those wouldn't have it any other way.

hogdogs
December 11, 2008, 04:11 AM
458 hits on some thought provoking points... The first time or 2 I fired a gun I was a tiny kid of 7 or so with the my father kneeled in front of me to rest the .410 then the 12 gauge barrel on his shoulder as I couldn't hold it up. Before I was 10 I was eating wild game shot by my dad as a .410 shell on a squirrel was cheaper than driving to the store for hotdogs. Pop would have me go to the opposite side of the tree and make noise so the squirrel would be on his side for a one shot kill so as to save ammo. Now I am back to the point where I cannot afford to pass up hunting. If I did not need the meat I wouldn't buy a license and WMA pass. This is the first season in over 20 years that I am going out in search of meat for human consumption with a firearm...:rolleyes:
Brent

HiBC
December 11, 2008, 04:15 AM
There are a lot of responses here,and I did not read them all,so if I duplicate some ideas,oh well.
You and I assign the meaning to any event,and from that meaning,we feel.
It is OK to be you.My daughter shoots,but she does not care to hunt.I can respect her choice.
I approach a kill,establish it is dead,then,I sit with it a while before I begin with the knife.
I use the joke of the skinless,boneless chicken breast to explain some of what it means.It is so far removed from death.Nearly tofu.It doesn't matter a hired killer/gut man is in the price per pound.It is so far removed from the circle of life,and respect for food.
There is life in a grain of wheat.There is death in a slice of bread.
A home grown tomato is different than a cello wrapped tomato.Part of it is the dirt and tomato worms and watching them ripen.
It is also good to know there are very few kind deaths in nature.Starvation,falling through ice,being eaten alive,an infected wound.
No nice passing away in sleep.A quick bullet on a good day to die,not so bad.
When I die,I would like to feed coyotes,for a song,and be part of the Circle,myself

cat9x
December 11, 2008, 09:11 AM
My belief is that God gave us the world to rule over and all the animals in it, we have to respect and take care of this world, and I believe hunting is human nature.

I also believe any person that eats McDonalds, fast food, or any type of meat, fish, poultry and complains against hunting is a pure hypocrite. People can be fine when it's "out of sight out of mind" because they dont want to see the reality of animals dying so they can eat hamburgers and chicken nuggets...but if someone shoots a wild animal to eat it, thats horrible.

I do not get sad, what I do get is more and more respect for the animal, and firmer in my belief that we must conserve our land and protect these great animals we share this great planet with. God bless.

Cerick
December 11, 2008, 11:04 AM
The first animal I ever remember killing when I was about 8, bothered me a little bit. Then I ate it.

If you've never killed before, the first or second animal might bother you, after that you realize your doing it for food. Very good food.

If you have some of the venison I cook, you'll be out the next day trying to get some of that fresh, delicious meat.

Death from Afar
December 11, 2008, 04:00 PM
Can i add a different take on this.

I am not a deer hunter, and the only animals i hunt that i eat are water fowl, which I do eat and do love.

90% of the hunting i do is varminting. The animals I shoot are pests and I am a bit careful about eating due to health concerns from RCV disease in the case of rabbits, and poisoning that has been used for aniaml control. So most animals are shot and left, or in the case of pigeons, usually thrown in a big hole. I eat a handful of those, but you cant eat 500 at once)> Do i feel any regrets? Heck no! Farmers have been controlling animals of all sorts from bugs to prarie dogs to crows since the beginning of time, and if pests were not shot, then the farmers livlihoods would be in danger.

Buzzcook
December 11, 2008, 04:35 PM
Regret is not quite the word for it.

I've had gardens where I've raise some beautiful veggies. I wish I could have shared the sight of vines full of tomatoes. So when I harvest them there is something like regret. But I still eat them up.

Same thing for game animals, there is an idealized Bambi that I'd like to have gamboling around eternally. Then there is the Bambi I take home to eat.

Elite Doberman
December 14, 2008, 02:29 AM
Thanks for the responses. This helps me get a better understanding.

A couple people mentioned hunters ethics. What are hunters ethics? Does this basically mean taking the animal down as quickly and painlessly as possible?

hogdogs
December 14, 2008, 02:39 AM
Since the terms "ethics" and "morals" are open to debate... To me I prefer "acceptable" or "proper". Number one thing is a clean quick kill as much as I can have happen. After that is legal requirements. Following those is vermin control to help both land owners and native wildlife, to me is a way to give back to both for me getting the opportunity to use the land for my benefit.
Others have feelings about things like not shooting a duck unless it is in flight or would never use a light at night even if legal. I will use whatever means that I am allowed LEGALLY to take game or vermin. If folks think it is not "sporting" as it is an unfair advantage then I expect they also only hunt bare handed as even a club is an advantage...:D
Brent

Sarge
December 14, 2008, 03:49 AM
Thanks for the responses. This helps me get a better understanding.

A couple people mentioned hunters ethics. What are hunters ethics?

'Ethics' are what causes you to do the right thing, when nobody but you and God will ever know what you did- or why you did it. In previous times when 'religion' and 'morals' weren't dirty words, this was called 'conviction', 'conscience' or having a good 'moral compass'.


Does this basically mean taking the animal down as quickly and painlessly as possible?

I don't count that as the meaning of ethics but in my mind it is the only way to kill anything, including a snake with a shovel.

razorburn
December 14, 2008, 08:50 AM
I will tell you the first time I killed an animal, at age 11, it made me sad, yes.
At this age, not anymore.
I am still extremely sad if a pet dies. I am not when I shoot an animal. They are not a pet, and I have no attachment to the deer or animal I hunt.
It is a strange and complex thing to take a life, even if it is an animals'. People react differently no matter how well or poorly justified the killing is. Some will not care at all, or some will feel regret, and I can't say if either is wrong.

ojibweindian
December 14, 2008, 09:48 AM
I look at this rather simply, albeit possibly incorrectly (depending on circumstances). Assuming enough predators are in a game animal's habitat, I would think that killing one, such as a deer, with a rifle is much more preferable to the animal than being killed by wolves, 'yotes, pumas, etc. With a rifle, death to the animal comes within a few minutes, usually. Death by clawed predator may take a while, and often the animal is being eaten by the predator while still alive.

Nature can be very cruel; I like to think of myself as being a bit more merciful :D

hogdogs
December 14, 2008, 09:55 AM
ojib, AMEN!!! And can you imagine how painful death by human hunter was before we had the atlatl? :D
Brent

Jseime
December 14, 2008, 06:56 PM
I love animals too, I just feel that all of them are different.

Dogs for example are loving and loyal as can be if you raise them right. I love dogs and will always have on once I am established and have a place of my own. Yet there are places in the world where dogs are considered a source of food which seems to me to be completely bizarre and if anyone tried to eat my dog they would be in for a very unpleasant life in the hospital for several days.

Game animals are totally different than pets. I am not attached to a deer when i shoot it and its not my pet that relys on me. I try to make every kill as quick and painless as possible... much quicker and much less pain than the animal experiences dying the natural way.

If you want to understand hunting you should go along with someone who is a good hunter. They have to be a good hunter because there are a lot of dipsticks out there who make hunters look really bad and go about it totally the wrong way. Walking out across the prairie after a herd of mule deer and stalking to within a good distance then selecting a deer and taking it is a lot different than some guys who drive around shooting out the window at the first thing that moves.

Brad Clodfelter
December 14, 2008, 07:50 PM
I think your posting this on the wrong website. It's kind of like asking PETA members to show pictures of this years deer hunt. :rolleyes:

longrange08
December 14, 2008, 08:58 PM
It Makes Me Sad To See A Deer Die I Never Enjoy That Part Of The Hunt However I Do Enjoy Many Other Aspects And The Meat Is A Major Factor. Were I Not Able To Keep The Meat I Would Quit Going I Hope That Helps. ACTUALLY IT GETS WORSE EVERY YEAR AS I WATCH DEER AND LEARN FROM THEM AND ABOUT THEM MY RESPECT AND AWW OF THEM GROWS A LITTLE EACH YEAR AND BECOMES INCREASINGLY PAINFUL TO KILL ONE NOT SOMETHING I TALK ABOUT WITH MY HUNTING BUDDIES BUT AS SOMEONE ASKED I WILL BE HONEST ESPECIALLY SINCE I DONT KNOW ANYONE ON HERE PERSONALLY AND DONT HAVE TO HEAR THEIR SHI% :) LOL BUT ALL THINGS CONSIDERED IT IS STILL MY ABSOLUTE FAVORITE TIME OF YEAR YOU SHOULD TRY IT. ONE LAST THOUGHT AND DOES ANYONE ELSE HERE FEEL THIS WAY AFTER BEING A MARINE AND SEEING LIVES TAKEN AND LOST THE KILL BOTHERS ME MUCH MORE KNOWING HOW EASY LIFE IS LOST BE IT DEER OR MAN AND HOW EASILY IT CAN BE TAKEN AWAY WHEN I GOT OUT I SKIPPED SEVERAL HUNTING SEASONS JUST COULDNT DO IT

Crankylove
December 14, 2008, 09:13 PM
My aunt has asked me similar questions as the OP in the past. Her feelings are different than mine, and thats okay. She believes hunting is cruel and barbarous, and is just an excuss to kill. She dosen't think twice about going to her local market and buying chicken breasts, ground beef, or pork ribs. These animal products she buys came from animals that have know their whole lives only as confinement. They are kept in cages and pens, overcrowded and dirty, living on feed that is engineered to make fat animals that will sell for a higher price, and when the farmer thinks they are right for sale, they are taken and slaughtered in the most cost productive way available. It may be a spike or electrode to the head of a pig or cow, or what amounts to a big bath tub for chickens where they are simply electrocuted in numbers. They get thrown on conveyor belts, dumped in trucks, and handled by people who have become immune to the depressing things they see everyday.My aunt will eat meat from the store or resturaunt, because she dosen't think about where it came from, as far as she is concerned, it sprang to existance in that little plastic tray. She rants and cries for the "poor animals" that have no chance against the hunters. I have explained that the poor animals have much better eyesight, hearing, smell, and can run away from me much faster than I can stalk them. She dosen't understand the difference between me, spending a year preparing my gear, making sure my gun is shooting true to make that clean kill, handloading the perfect load, watching the wildlife and hiking in the area I want to hunt, heading out into the back country to try and outwit the game on their home turf; and a cow or chicken taken from their pen and electrocuted and run thru a slaughter house so she can have dinner. If I can't make a clean, quick kill, I don't take the shot, and many times have come home from my hunting trip empty handed, and have still enjoyed the hunting experience. When I track and stalk a deer, elk, or antelope, I learn about the way they live, and get to watch them interact in nature. When I gut and skin one, I learn more about their anatomy to help ensure the next shot I take will continue to be a humane kill. I put hours of labor into cleaning my kill, hauling it to camp, and butchering and packaging it at home so that I and my family can enjoy it. I don't take pleasure in indiscriminate killing, but I do enjoy the challenge of the hunt, the time I spend in areas full of wildlife, and fruit of my labors after a successfull hunt. Some people feel if they don't personally kill the food on their table, they have had no hand in that animals death. They may not have taken part in, or seen that animals death, but it still died to be on their table. I know many people who wont hunt, but are aware of where their food comes from, they also know that I do hunt, and we are all ok with each others feelings on the matter. Everybody can feel differently about a subject, the problems arise when someone thinks that their opinion and belief is the only correct one.

Art Eatman
December 15, 2008, 10:25 AM
I guess the whole issue was never all that much of an issue for me, growing up with farming and ranching. Ranching, you raise cattle to sell to the market for folks to eat. You work your butt off to make sure the herd stays healthy, and you can't help but feel some attachment to those animals.

But their intended purpose is as food for people. And you can't have the food without killing the animal. For me, then, there's just no concern about "the way life is".

Bambi: Graceful. Pretty, in body and for the buck, antlers. There's just something about a deer that's more aesthetically pleasing to me than most other herbivores. But they're meat, and the meat tastes good. If you want to eat venison, ya gotta kill the deer. That's just the way life is.

My concern is for the health of the herd, not the fate of an individual animal.

Ethics? In general, it has to do with a quick, clean kill, minimizing suffering. That's why I make the effort to use a tack-driving rifle and control my "buck fever" so that I do the proper bullet placement. "Fair chase" comes in via not cheating: I don't hunt deer at night, nor hunt in any small high-fenced enclosure. I really don't care for hunting over such bait as an oat patch, for that matter, but that's sorta drifting off the fair chase issue. I don't want to get into the issue of fair chase and waiting at a water hole, either; after all, that's what the big cats do...

Last, I guess, hunting is a way of connecting with hundreds of generations of forebears. Sitting around the fire at deer camp, watching stars, visiting with friends: That's been going on for thousands of years. I'm not so arrogant that I think only modern ways have validity.

Only hunters and gardeners are "do it yourselfers" in providing food. Everybody else merely hires other people to do the dirty scut work for them. Think about that when you boogie on down to Ruth's Chris...

If I were a hostile sort, I'd ask the meat-eating anti-hunter, "What makes you so noble, since you hired a killer to do your slaughtering for you?" :)

Art

sureshots
December 15, 2008, 11:23 AM
Today, we have no choice. The Deer population has to be controlled. I can not think of A more Humane way to control these beautiful animals than the art of Hunting. Yes, I used the word art. Time was when man hunted for survival, he had better be good at this or face the possibility of Hunger for Him and His Family. Today we hunt for Sport as well as food. We are under no pressure to make the Kill so we can do this at our own leisure. Being enough said there is no reason for one to be unethical or inhumane in ones hunting practices. Good Hunting

davlandrum
December 15, 2008, 11:52 AM
I feel that I take personal responsibility for the animals that die to feed me and mine. How could I eat meat if I was unwilling to take that responsibility? Just having someone else do it for me is not acceptable to me.

Dave

sserdlihc
December 15, 2008, 12:14 PM
I was raised seeing my father and grandfather slaughter hogs, chickens and cattle. So, when I started to hunt and kill, it didn't bother me. However, I only will kill what I plan on eating. That was and still is the rules of the game with my family. JUst my 2 cents

Chinny33
December 15, 2008, 12:24 PM
I am apart of the PETA group too!

People Eating Tasty Animals

Kreyzhorse
December 15, 2008, 12:30 PM
I am a hunter. To be honest, I don't like to kill any thing and I am saddened when I take a life. Life is fragile. However, to hunt, you must kill. I hunt. I eat what I kill.

In my opinion, hunting is honest and actually teaches you to respect life in a way that a non-hunter could ever understand.

anythingshiny
December 15, 2008, 12:35 PM
When i was just a goblin, i shot a robin with my bbgun. i had no intentions of eating it..it was just the 'stalk' if you can call it that and the young thrill. I felt bad about it though..it was a beautiful red breast and deep down i had no need or reason to kill it.

I hunt but i eat what i hunt. the thrill is still there, the stalk is still fun but i do not feel bad with a good clean shot.

i despise the trophy hunters shooting ONLY for rack..as long as they are gonna eat it, fine..have at it, but the old stories in hunter mags about hunting big game in africa always bothered me.