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Death from Afar
December 9, 2008, 09:11 PM
I've noticed in a lot of threads some comments about this shotgun or that ammo for home defence. While that is of great academic interest to me, here in New Zealand the shooting of home invaders is practically unheard of, and self defence is not a reason to have a firearms licence issued to you. My question is this...is the use of a shotgun in home defence that commonplace, and if that is not the case, is it really necessary compared to the problems having a loaded firearm could create (i.e keeping it out of the reach of children)?

This is not a troll by the way- I am sure you all have valid reasons and motivations. I am just curious if the crime problem in the US and other places is that bad, which warrants the very serious medicine of 9 pellets of oo buck!

Thank you.

gustav129
December 9, 2008, 10:15 PM
Well, for one, I would rather use "less lethal" shells, which are smaller rubber balls, or one big rubber ball. My intent is not to mame a person, just let them know that they aren't welcome. If I wanted to mame somebody, I'd use my 4-2 shot shells, which would turn somebody into hamburger rather than a couple 00 holes.

I would like to get my hands on those bean bag shells that the police use.

Slopemeno
December 9, 2008, 10:23 PM
Theres a couple of valid reasons-

1) A long gun is much, MUCH more likely to achieve a hit under stress.

2) 12 gauge 00 does the trick.

Crime in the US isn't really that bad overall, but there is a career criminal class out there. There are something like 1,000,000 occurances each year in this country where the mere presence of a firearm stops the bad guys in their tracks. When you read some of the news stories here, keep in mind there are 300,000,000 people here now.

If I *have* to shoot someone (and I hope I never, ever have to) I want to win- plain and simple. I'll take any advantage I can get.

alloy
December 9, 2008, 10:47 PM
here in New Zealand the shooting of home invaders is practically unheard of, and self defence is not a reason to have a firearms licence issued to you

dont take this wrong, but how could home invaders get shot if the govt doesnt issue firearms liscences?

i dont understand your laws but here, i dont need a liscence to keep a shotgun in the house or any justification...yet. i own one because i felt like paying for one.

hogdogs
December 9, 2008, 11:54 PM
Alloy, I have a friend in NZ. He owns and hunts with numerous arms. Including silencer equipped ones.But he can't defend his home with one for the most part.:mad:
Brent

Re4mer
December 10, 2008, 12:07 AM
A shotgun, tactically speaking is pretty good for home defense, yet at the same time it can also serve several other practical and recreational purposes such as hunting and target shooting. In general it is just an overall good thing to have when needed. As for US crime rates, you can check out those statistics anytime to understand why people feel safer with a weapon in the home. Or you can simply ask one of the thousands of Americans who's lives have been saved by having access to a firearm.

73-Captain
December 10, 2008, 12:22 AM
"Death from Afar" you said in part, "...the problems having a loaded firearm could create".



I've never seen any firearm "create" a problem. Have used them to solve problems.

Problem is not caused by a inanimate "thing" but by the brainless idiot that misuses one.

C.

Bill DeShivs
December 10, 2008, 12:37 AM
Gustav129
There is no such thing as "less than lethal" ammunition when you get to a courtroom. That ammunition is very lethal at close range, anyway.
If you shoot a gun at someone, you'd better be damned sure you are justified in doing so. If you ARE justified, then you better use real ammunition.

MaxHeadSpace
December 10, 2008, 03:02 AM
Locally, rural area about 10 miles from town where police response is about 30 minutes unless someone has been murdered . . . EVERYONE owns a shotgun, mostly for duck hunting.

Break ins are nil, because all the jerks in the area realize that EVERONE owns a shotgun.

In the USA we call this "deterrent." :D

Children locally know about guns, about shooting them and about leaving them alone if they're not being supervised by adults. There's not much "curiosity" about them. Kids see firearms locally all the time, just like they see trucks and tractors.

LucifersPants
December 10, 2008, 08:34 AM
The notion that wanting to be able to defend yourself in your own home is not a 'valid' reason to own a gun is absurd. I feel sorry for NZ citizens who've been systematically neutered by their own gov't. Self preservation is a basic HUMAN INSTINCT...if you happen to find an armed intruder in your house, what are you supposed to do to defend yourself? Throw a frying pan at him? The fact that your own gov't expects you to curl up into a ball, beg for mercy and HOPE that they just rob you instead of injuring or killing you is unconscionable. I don't know how these politicians can sleep at night. Taking guns away isn't going to reduce crime...it CREATES VICTIMS.

As for children...TEACH them about firearms. DO NOT make them taboo, and they will not be interested enough in them to seek them out when adults are not home. My wife's father was a LEO, and that was their approach with their kids. ALLOW them to hold the guns, teach them the safe operation of the guns, and you'll see how little they care. They best way to get a kid to do something is to tell tham that they CAN'T...it's human nature.

leadcounsel
December 10, 2008, 08:51 AM
The shotgun is a superb home defense weapon. Easy to use, reliable, and huge stopping power and variety of loads.

I was in NZ recently and a police officer was killed by a pellet gun during a month when I think there were SEVEN (Yes 7) murders and there was public outcry to outlaw PELLET GUNS! UGH.... when does the insanity stop

BTW - beautiful country, but isolated from the world to the point that I just felt that the people there don't GET IT. When I told people I was in the Army and deployed to Iraq and on leave, they almost universally disagreed with the war and just don't get it.


Gustav, shooting an intruder with less than lethal ammunition is a dangerous mentality.

There are only two categories -
1) In fear of imminent serious bodily harm - in which case a firearm or other lethal weapon is lawfully justified
2) Not in fear of imminent serious bodily harm - no weapon is justified

If you fall into category 2 and use a weapon, it's serious crime called assault with a deadly weapon and attempted murder. If you fall into category 1, why would you use less than lethal force if you are justified. What if you permanently blind him or cause other terrible injuries? The result MAY be:
A) You wound someone who later seeks retribution
B) You wound someone who later sues you
C) You wound someone who later presents his sob story to the police, media, district attorney, etc.

Why would you subject yourself to this...

Remember, you're not spraying a stray cat with a hose - you are defending your life, your family, and your castle from an unlawful intruder with the intent to break in and commit unknown terror in your home.

Laz
December 10, 2008, 10:35 AM
Death from Afar - Just to play upon your screen name for a moment, in my view the shotgun is an ideal home defense weapon precisely because it is not a weapon that deals "death from afar". It's a very powerful but short-range weapon wonderfully suited for defense and also, in my case at least, also suited for hunting and recreational clay shooting. I have no interest in dealing death from afar but have a lot of interest in protecting me and my loved ones in the unlikely event it became necessary. A shotgun says "don't tread on me", not "I'm coming to get you".

jfruser
December 10, 2008, 02:42 PM
Why a home defense shotgun?

1. I cannot afford a bodyguard for my family and must deal with security threats my own self.
2. Gov't does not issue a policeman to personally guard my home.
3. Shotgun, properly loaded, is one of the best fight-stoppers that can be wielded by your average person.
4. The same reason I wear a seat belt in an auto, own a fire extinuisher, and pay for life/home/auto insurance.

Keeping it out of the hands of children has been solved by means of an electronic keypad lock on a closet door and ongoing firearms safety instruction. Quick access electronic keypad mini-safes do the same for loaded handguns.

Crime in the USA is mostly localized to high-poverty, high-minority urban areas. The problem is, even the poor in the USA can afford an auto to increase the range of their depredation. Better to be prepared and not need t than need it and not have access to it.

hogdogs
December 10, 2008, 02:48 PM
Because a full time cop in the house eats too much:rolleyes:
Brent

Vergeltung
December 10, 2008, 03:39 PM
I have my HD shotgun because there were some county-wide home invasions in the early Fall season, and one of them was within walking distance of my home. it was a semi-organized group that was armed. they slapped a few people around, and took property.

I also got it because of the slipping economy and adverse presidential election here. anything could happen. I want to be ready.

Slopemeno
December 10, 2008, 05:46 PM
Hogdogs, I *believe* the line is "because a cop is too heavy"...

scorpion_tyr
December 10, 2008, 06:35 PM
Cops are too heavy... and they eat too much... I've lived with them before. LeadCounsel... what about option D: Bad guy is not stopped by "less than lethal" force and kills you and your family. Less than lethal has it's uses, but not in my home against an intruder. Just my $.02

Katrina Guy
December 11, 2008, 12:24 AM
I'm a freaking American and CAN own one!
Our country, our countrymen consist of many different peoples, some, if one were to put them in different classes which I won't here, like to prey on others, typically those who work for a living (get it?). Always amazes me when people here, typically of the donkey party persuasion, compare the US to other "industrialized" nations when they speak of gun control as why do we need them (guns), they always fail to bring out the different make up of our country (the peoples that make this country), that these other industrailized and more enlighten countries do not possess.
Yes crime is bad in the US! Perhaps some of the posters in here are rather immune to it depending on locale (example: rural living vs urban big city living), why many US States have concealed carry permits, imagine that, you can't own a fire arm and or can't use a fire arm to defend yourself IN YOUR HOME, and we can carry one wherever we go!
I'd prefer to take my chances living here with the right to own/carry a firearm then to live somewhere else with less crime (never no crime!) and have to resort to grabbing the kitchen butcher knife in times of trouble.
Shotguns represent a formidable response to a would be foe in close quarters is why we possess them, in addition to having the right to. So there.

LucifersPants
December 11, 2008, 07:51 AM
I'm a freaking American and CAN own one!
Our country, our countrymen consist of many different peoples, some, if one were to put them in different classes which I won't here, like to prey on others, typically those who work for a living (get it?). Always amazes me when people here, typically of the donkey party persuasion, compare the US to other "industrialized" nations when they speak of gun control as why do we need them (guns), they always fail to bring out the different make up of our country (the peoples that make this country), that these other industrailized and more enlighten countries do not possess.
Yes crime is bad in the US! Perhaps some of the posters in here are rather immune to it depending on locale (example: rural living vs urban big city living), why many US States have concealed carry permits, imagine that, you can't own a fire arm and or can't use a fire arm to defend yourself IN YOUR HOME, and we can carry one wherever we go!
I'd prefer to take my chances living here with the right to own/carry a firearm then to live somewhere else with less crime (never no crime!) and have to resort to grabbing the kitchen butcher knife in times of trouble.
Shotguns represent a formidable response to a would be foe in close quarters is why we possess them, in addition to having the right to. So there.

Amen.

1S1KWTD?
December 11, 2008, 01:07 PM
Because "I'mma big hairy American winning machine! If you ain't first, you're last."

Death from Afar
December 11, 2008, 03:16 PM
I'm a freaking American and CAN own one!
Our country, our countrymen consist of many different peoples, some, if one were to put them in different classes which I won't here, like to prey on others, typically those who work for a living (get it?). Always amazes me when people here, typically of the donkey party persuasion, compare the US to other "industrialized" nations when they speak of gun control as why do we need them (guns), they always fail to bring out the different make up of our country (the peoples that make this country), that these other industrailized and more enlighten countries do not possess.
Yes crime is bad in the US! Perhaps some of the posters in here are rather immune to it depending on locale (example: rural living vs urban big city living), why many US States have concealed carry permits, imagine that, you can't own a fire arm and or can't use a fire arm to defend yourself IN YOUR HOME, and we can carry one wherever we go!
I'd prefer to take my chances living here with the right to own/carry a firearm then to live somewhere else with less crime (never no crime!) and have to resort to grabbing the kitchen butcher knife in times of trouble.
Shotguns represent a formidable response to a would be foe in close quarters is why we possess them, in addition to having the right to. So there.
Yesterday 12:35 PM


Whoo , easy there tiger. I dont dispute your right to have a firearm- heck, if you read David Copels book it is easier to buy a rifle or machine gun in new zealand than it is in many states in the US- but what i was asking is do you NEED to have a loaded shotgun in your house. Not if it is your right, not if you want to, but if you NEED too- i.e. " Yes, in my county there is a big problem with meth heads breaking into peoples houses and they have to be shot". It is certainly not out of the question that in any place on earth, no matter how peaceful that a bad person could break into your house and harm you or your family. But if it is a very remote possibility- a one in a million chance- then I wonder if the risk justifies the response. For example, home invasions do occur in this country. I have young kids. Does the risk of young children getting into an unsecured firearm outweigh the theretical risk of a home invasion? The answer, in my case would be yes.

hogdogs
December 11, 2008, 03:22 PM
Now you spell out N E E D...:D If I ever "NEED" my home defense fire arm, you will likely notice me not posting much...;) semper paratus. I sleep much more sound with a loaded firearm or 2 beside me then without... But I am a sound sleeper so if I didn't have my pitbull cross in bed to alert me I might tuck the guns out of sight of a possible intruder.
Brent

Sam06
December 11, 2008, 03:35 PM
I am not sure if I NEED to have one, Thats why I have 2:) That and my alarm system(2 Big mean Golden Retreviers)That will let their Dad know there is someone around that was not invited. Plus my Dogs and my guns don't eat as much as a cop would and they can at least find the duck after I shoot it. A shotgun in the house is as American and Sam Colt. Everyone should have one. As far as kids go they know to leave it alone. I will show it to them and let them shoot any time they want to. They are grown up now so i guess I did somthing right.

johnny gitcher
December 11, 2008, 04:51 PM
I too am struggling with this decision - i live in a downtown denver neighborhood with a high crime rate, gunshots are heard frequently throughout the warmer months. in july a car pulled behind me just blocks from home and fired 5 rounds at me (missed my vehicle entirely, but it was horrifying hearing the bullets whizzing by, hitting parked cars right out my window). my house was broken into (nobody home) but now i have security dooors all around.

i have never fired a gun, and have pondered whether or not it is actually stupid of me to not have one in the house, given my circumstances. i have a wife, 4 year old & 11 month old.

i want to learn to shoot, and have decided that a pump shotgun is the way to go. i don't like ranges, but i can get to some forest area within 90 minutes where it's legal to shoot.

my whole dilemma is that i think that 95% of the time, a criminal entering a house does NOT want to encounter anybody nor have a confrontation. and introducing a firearm to any situation escalates the danger level like no other.

i figure worrying about a home invasion is like worrying about your plane crashing, or getting struck by lightning - very, very unlikely.

on the other hand, if there was ever anybody who should consider a HD weapon, i'm the guy.

i welcome any thoughts - about getting started shooting or whether or not to have a HD weapon. my first post. thanks.

Katrina Guy
December 11, 2008, 07:50 PM
Ok Death by Afar, regarding the need to have one, outside of right to own.
Alright, as my posting name reveals, I NEED one, not going through THAT again being poorly armed. What type of firearm one chooses to defend himself encompasses a lot of info, choices, lay out of the land, number of possible intruders etc etc...that is to say whether one first reaches for a shotgun vs a handgun etc.
We have, sad to report (yea it's not all stars and stripes over here) home invasions, typically with more then one assilant involved. Here's one to ponder, thugs breaking into one's home when occupants of said home are indeed, home, actually has a crime name "home invasions", THAT should give you an idea of how common such a crime is. We have other such crime classifications as well, someone yanks you at gunpoint out of your car, so common place Law Enforcement, the media, the average citizen has dubbed that one, "car jacking". Another one is, ok some thugs cruise around (typically in automobiles that sit very low to the ground and even after the vehicle stops, the hub caps keep spinning) they cruise and decide hey, let's empty a few clips at that there house, that one they dubbed "drive by".
To pull out the shotgun or to pull out something else is one's choice typically chosen based on lay out of the landscape (interior dwelling), the incredible stop-a-bility, multiple assilants. Hey, when someone is in your home when you're home, well the quicker that problem is resolved the better for all, and a shotgun is a very quick resolver.

Regarding kids in the home? well, first off you can lock it if you want, second, and I'm getting tired of this recurring theme to be honest, I grew up with my hunting shotgun (teenager years) and my dad's shotgun, I would have NEVER dreamed of taking it to school or something like that. I admit it was a different world back then, but still... Anyway, if anything, having kids in my house, especially MY kids, I would want a firearm more then anything, for their sake. Like I said, you can choose to lock it or put it out of reach if their tykes, of course! Lock and and keep it out of reach if you want, but make sure it's not some cumbersome, need to turn the bedroom light on and reach for the reading glasses to unlock, you'd be surprised how little patience home invaders have these days.

L_Killkenny
December 11, 2008, 08:22 PM
The most areas in the US are not that crime ridden that a HD weapon is a must. 99.99% of us won't ever use or need a HD weapon. That includes many of the members here. If you really think you need an HD then they would be well served to move. Violent crimes in the US more times than not, do not come from outside persons but from people the victims know.

That being said, Home Invasions do/can happen anywhere in the US and many people go with the "better safe than sorry" moto. Top that off with the deterent factor and the "I do it because I can" factor is why most members here have HD weapons. The shotgun is mearly the best, most available tool for the job that also serves the dual role of hunting. Hunting BTW, is why most shotguns are sold, not for HD as the primary reason.

LK

GreyOne
December 11, 2008, 10:00 PM
I work as a LEO in N. Texas. We have in our state a "Castle Law" that basically says if they are in YOUR home / business/ vehicle without permission and you are there, then IF you end up shooting them you and are found justified under criminal law, you can not be sued by the perp or their family.

In the area within a 10 mile radius of my home we have had three home invasions in the last two months which ended badly for the criminals because of homeowners with shotguns. These are just the ones where a justified shooting made the news. This is not a "high crime" area .

I keep a shotgun at home that is a 12 ga pimp with a 20 inch deer barrel. It is a good hunting gun as well as a good home defense weapon , should that be needed. At work we use the same type gun with 18 inch police barrels. Transition is easy.

Criminal law provides that intruders are subject to being shot in self defense, and the presumption is that if they broke into an occupied home the homeowner should not need to guess if their intentions are good or evil. The assumption that they are willing to harm or kill occupants is pretty well based on previous cases. The benefit of the doubt goes to the homeowner.

Cruncher Block
December 11, 2008, 11:13 PM
The probability I will need a firearm in self defense on any given day is low. The fact that I strive to maintain situational awareness and a non-victim demeanor perhaps makes it even lower than average.

However, that probability must considered against the consequences if I happen to be unarmed on a day I unfortunately draw the "losing number".

We can do the math but we should not lose sight of the fact that death is permanent. If one loses, one does not get a chance to play again.

hogdogs
December 11, 2008, 11:24 PM
Kinda like me talking to an airliner pilot aboutmy 1995 era "flight simulator" microsoft game... He says "But when you crash they just give another plane, right?...:D"

TxGun
December 12, 2008, 12:13 AM
"here in New Zealand the shooting of home invaders is practically unheard of, and self defence is not a reason to have a firearms licence issued to you."

I believe we are very different societies, Death. Correct me if my impressions are wrong, but N.Z. is a relatively homogeneous society, is it not? By that I mean 1) generally the same ethnic background, i.e. European decent 2) therefore, generally the same traditions and beliefs. Also, isn't N.Z. generally a rural, small-town society? And isn't there still prevalent a spirit of self-reliance and personal responsibility/accountability? (Notice I am speaking in generalities here because there are always a few exceptions to any blanket statement...I realize Auckland & Wellington are fairly sizeable cities, for example).

The U.S.A used to have many of these same atttributes. In parts of this country, they are still common. But we are increasingly an urban society and, in those urban areas, much of what was traditional and "American" in this country 40 or 50 years ago is now seemingly lost, and even ridiculed. We have gang-bangers who have been nutured not by parents, but by our welfare system. They have no morals and very little humanity. We have entire neighborhoods riddled with drug-users, drug-dealers, and those who live on the "opportunities" they provide. We have many individuals and organizations that hate our country and their hate infects many who don't even realize they are being infected. These people and organizations seek to change our traditions, our government, our economy. They advocate socialistic or communistic solutions to every issue. They seem to hate our success. Home invasion is common in large cities and their suburbs. Murder, rape, car theft, drive-by shootings happen every day in these urban landscapes. It spills over into any small town that is in reach of a city. Meth labs flourish in every state. Illegals flow across our Southern border by the millions bringing their brand of criminality with them. Racism is still present, but reverse racism is especially rampant. Job competition and high taxes add to the tension.

I love this country. I'm intensely patriotic and would forfeit my life for the ideals that America has always championed. But unfortunately...yes, home protection has increasingly gone from a concern to a requirement. A good HD shotgun is becoming more than a comfort...it's becoming a necessity.

xm21
December 12, 2008, 12:32 AM
TxGun and GreyOne both have pretty good reasons why we need to be prepared.Another reason is that our courts seem to keep letting violent offenders off with very light sentences or probation.

LucifersPants
December 12, 2008, 08:04 AM
That's the best post I've seen on this thread. Good job sir...

Death from Afar
December 14, 2008, 04:52 PM
"here in New Zealand the shooting of home invaders is practically unheard of, and self defence is not a reason to have a firearms licence issued to you."

I believe we are very different societies, Death. Correct me if my impressions are wrong, but N.Z. is a relatively homogeneous society, is it not? By that I mean 1) generally the same ethnic background, i.e. European decent 2) therefore, generally the same traditions and beliefs. Also, isn't N.Z. generally a rural, small-town society? And isn't there still prevalent a spirit of self-reliance and personal responsibility/accountability? (Notice I am speaking in generalities here because there are always a few exceptions to any blanket statement...I realize Auckland & Wellington are fairly sizeable cities, for example).

The U.S.A used to have many of these same atttributes. In parts of this country, they are still common. But we are increasingly an urban society and, in those urban areas, much of what was traditional and "American" in this country 40 or 50 years ago is now seemingly lost, and even ridiculed. We have gang-bangers who have been nutured not by parents, but by our welfare system. They have no morals and very little humanity. We have entire neighborhoods riddled with drug-users, drug-dealers, and those who live on the "opportunities" they provide. We have many individuals and organizations that hate our country and their hate infects many who don't even realize they are being infected. These people and organizations seek to change our traditions, our government, our economy. They advocate socialistic or communistic solutions to every issue. They seem to hate our success. Home invasion is common in large cities and their suburbs. Murder, rape, car theft, drive-by shootings happen every day in these urban landscapes. It spills over into any small town that is in reach of a city. Meth labs flourish in every state. Illegals flow across our Southern border by the millions bringing their brand of criminality with them. Racism is still present, but reverse racism is especially rampant. Job competition and high taxes add to the tension.

I love this country. I'm intensely patriotic and would forfeit my life for the ideals that America has always championed. But unfortunately...yes, home protection has increasingly gone from a concern to a requirement. A good HD shotgun is becoming more than a comfort...it's becoming a necessity.


TxGun, thats a wonderful post and very well thought out and perceptive. Thank you. Regrettably, we seem to be heading down the same path, and i belive i wil be saying the same thing in 40 years.

Katrina Guy
December 17, 2008, 06:56 PM
LOL on someone's typo LOLOL

Socrates
December 17, 2008, 07:55 PM
Gang members far out number police, and, besides drugs, theft is an excellent source of income for them. American homes, and apartments are NOT built as they should be to keep out home invaders.

We have a serious problem with illegals, since they have lived in a country where the biggest thieves and murders, carrying guns, are their own police. They bring those values here.

TxGun made an excellent post, and, GreyOne as well.

The amazing part for me is that Texas has very liberal gun laws, yet, the bad guys just don't get it, and, THAT is scary. If I was one of them, I'd move to San Francisco, home of the sheep, and, a city that voted to outlaw handguns...

If you live in a major city, your chance of being the target of a violent crime is between 1 and 15, and 1 and 22, if the FBI figures are correct, EACH YEAR.

As for your specific question, I've often asked that question myself. I see NO reason, or benefit to a shotgun, and, many better alternatives.

Ricky
December 17, 2008, 11:12 PM
I was going to write out a long explanation but Txgun already said most of it and said it very eloquently. Well said my friend!
I would just like to add that although I do not live in a notoriously high crime area (about 25 mile N.E. of San Francisco) there is certainly crime in my town/neighborhood/county. The likelyhood of needing to protect my home and my family is low but it does certainly exist. There is also the possibility of a Katrina like natural disaster, in California though it would more than likeley be a major earthquake. I "don't think" that my town would be like New Orleans after Katrina or Los Angeles, after the Rodney King trial but it ain't Mayberry either. My feeling is that #1. I do not want to be a helpless victim. #2. I have a responsibilty to protect my family. Personally I can not identify with anti-gun people who don't feel this same responsibility. My wife and kids think of me as the person who will do whatever possible to keep them safe and I will do my very best to not let them down.
I have a few guns in my home, most are hunting guns but I have a Glock Model 22 within reach in my bed and a HD shotgun hidden close by. I have a yellow lab that sleeps at the foot of my bed. He probably wouldn't bite anyone but he's a great alarm system.

Socrates
December 18, 2008, 04:14 AM
well said.