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drdriller
November 28, 2008, 09:09 PM
I have a Remington 870 home defense shotgun. It's super sloppy, and jams easily. Adide from Mossberg, what is a good, smooth, reliable, home defense shotgun? I don't want Mossberg or Remington, the mechanisms are too sloppy.
thanks
Any advice would be great.

oletymer
November 28, 2008, 09:14 PM
Browning BPS or Ithaca 37.

nemoaz
November 28, 2008, 09:25 PM
I have a Remington 870 home defense shotgun. It's super sloppy, and jams easily.If you can't work an 870, you need training not another weapon. It's probably the most reliable and sturdy shotgun on the market. My weapons instructors said "Treat it like your girlfriend, not your wife." Rack it with authority. You can make any shotgun fail to pump the thing properly. Racking it should be second nature. You should automatically rack it with full force a split second after it fires.

FWIW- Mossbergs are my favorite, because I prefer the lighter weight and the controls. That being said, any pump from a major manufacturer will work well.

guntotinguy
November 28, 2008, 09:34 PM
Saiga S12 or S20....with extended mags!

Bill DeShivs
November 28, 2008, 09:38 PM
Perhaps a Purdey is in order. They have very tight actions. :rolleyes:

hogdogs
November 28, 2008, 09:49 PM
Junior didn't like his brand new Maverick because it jammed all the time for him. Being just a teen he was aware he knew everything and blamed the jamming on the gun being both cheap and new. I finally convinced him to hand it over to me and I ran a box of the same ammo and nary a jam... Hand it back and while I watched him closely he has 2 jams on one tube full... It was then I realized he was not following thru with a smooth yet firm action... when I showed him he admitted he was afraid to rack it too hard so as not to harm it.
Brent

singlestack45
November 28, 2008, 09:59 PM
Benelli Nova. good, smooth, reliable. My buddy runs one almost as fast as
an autoloader.

drdriller
November 28, 2008, 11:09 PM
Thanks for the technique critique. If I rack it back hard, the slide gets stuck back. If I decrease the force, the gun jams 10% of the time. I am not asking for a "How To" on how to shot a pump shotgun, but if anyone knows of a better quality shotgun.

So, aside from the Remington or Mossberg, what is a good, HIGH QUALITY, home defense shotgun? I have shot both a Remington 870, and Mossberg 590. I think that they are approximately the same in regards to quality.
thanks

Scattergun Bob
November 28, 2008, 11:17 PM
OK, so you are not willing to take some sage advice from some rather experienced folks. The advice is to look within and see what is wrong, well so be it.

Others have suggested BPS by browning and Ithaca. When you are done with those you have been thru most of the "best" pump guns.

Perhaps, autos like Benelli or Remington or Mossberg fit your fiddle better, you have no physical operation skills necessary to make these run except know how to load it.

Good Luck & Be safe

roach4047
November 28, 2008, 11:24 PM
Here's an option for you. You can either select something from them or they'll accept the shotgun that you already own and turn it into the best shotgun you could ever hope to have as a home defense weapon. Either way Wilson Combat is second no NOBODY in terms of craftsmanship or quality. They love working on 870's as well. At the very least you should give them a call and talk to them about the problems you're having. They'll have several options available to you. And you can be assured that you'll get no better advice from anybody than you will from the gunsmiths @ Wilson Combat.


http://www.wilsoncombat.com/why-wc.asp

Roach

Teppo Sensei
November 29, 2008, 01:11 AM
i love my 870
if you short rack any pump it will jam
maybe you need a semi or a double barrel

a pistol grip converted SBR saiga12 would be fun with a 10rd mag

Dave McC
November 29, 2008, 09:39 AM
S'funny, I've been shooting 870s since Mastodon went on the endangered list and can count the glitches on one hand.

I've had rusty agency 870s run like butter, and some personal 870s here have 20K round counts in my hands.

Still, any company can have lemons. Do try this.....

After ensuring that it's empty, remove the barrel, action bars, boltncarrier and drop the trigger group. Using a good light source, check the shell latches on the inside of the receiver, looking for a bent/broken tip.

Then examine the action bars. They should be straight and parallel. If not, use a straight edge like a yardstick to true them up.

If a latch needs replacement, any decent smith can do it in his/her sleep.

While you have things apart, lube lightly (wipe on wipe off) and remove any receiver grunge you find. Lube the action bars the same way and reassemble.

If somehow this fails to fix your 870, bring it by the range or other place we can meet. I'll pay you $200 cash sight unseen to put towards any other pump of your choice and to get this one running PDQ.

It'll be another PETP rescue effort.....

drdriller
November 29, 2008, 10:09 AM
I'll try that. My main issue is that when I rack the slide back, it jams open, and i cannot get it to move forward. If I rack it with less force, the spent shell ejects, but the new shell gets stuck half way if. If I rack with more force, the spent shell ejects, and the new shell goes in. Sometimes, 10% of the time, the rack will stick open, and I have one hell of a time getting it unstuck. I have shot about 200 rounds through the gun, and have had this problem from day one. I have shot 3" magnums, and 2 3/4 birdshot, and 00. This happens no matter what brand I have, I have lots laying around from the birds hunting with my Browing gold huinter.

Any more help would be great. I don't relish the thought of getting a new gun, I like this one, but I need it, or me, to be more reliable.

hogdogs
November 29, 2008, 10:13 AM
You did do an initial teardown when new correct? I know nothing of the 870's so could someone speak up as to what could cause the action to hang open? Maybe a scum issue?
Brent

drdriller
November 29, 2008, 10:56 AM
I took it apart, cleaned it, then lubed it. I did not debur or sand anything down. I have never bought any firearm that needed something like that. I expect it to work with some lube.

tackdriver
November 29, 2008, 11:26 AM
Doesn't Remington offer a warranty?

762x39
November 30, 2008, 08:10 AM
Benelli all the way!!!:D:D:D:D

drdriller
November 30, 2008, 10:31 AM
This is to dave or anyone else in Houston, I'll take that $200.

ThChrMn
December 1, 2008, 04:25 PM
I'd send it back for repairs. That gun should cycle perfectly.

Anyway, I would go with an auto loader. I have a Benelli that has never let me down.

iuindy2l
December 3, 2008, 11:01 PM
I love my 3 Winchester 1300s. 2 black shadows and an 18 inch defender. Never a problem out of any of them.

scorpion_tyr
December 3, 2008, 11:23 PM
This has to be the first negative 870 post I've seen. I'm not trying to insult you or say you're doing anything wrong, I'm just going to try and cover everything. Stop after the gun starts functioning properly. For the safety of you and your family I hope the problem is resolved quickly.

1. Follow the inspect and/or repair procedures, and advise of the others that replied before me, a gunsmith, and people at Remington.

2. Shoot the gun again.

3. Try at least 4 different brands/types of ammunition, bought, not handloaded.

4. Shoot the gun again.

5. Let someone else, with a few hundred rounds through a pump, shoot the gun.

6. Send gun back to Remington.

7. Shoot the gun again.

8. Sell gun, buy another pump action, either another 870 or another "higher" quality brand.

9. Shoot gun.

10. Buy an automatic.

11. Shoot gun.

12. See a pro-gun priest.

I listed these steps instead of suggesting another "higher" quality brand because I do not believe there is another brand that is of higher quality than Remington or Mossberg. The 870 would not have lasted longer than 50 years, nor would it be (from what I have seen) the most popular shotgun in the world, if the design had flaws. If you like the feel of the 870, just not the reliability, and you get to step 8, I suggest buy another 870.

KUHIO
December 3, 2008, 11:26 PM
The 870 is a military/LE grade weapon, perhaps you have a factory defective firearm??? I wouldn't say 870 is poor quality at all, it's been around a long time. I won't criticize your technique, sounds like you've done it all. I'd contact Remington or your local gunsmith to check it out, you may not need to buy a new gun. Hope you get it sorted out

skeeter1
December 5, 2008, 02:06 AM
"If you can't work an 870, you need training not another weapon. It's probably the most reliable and sturdy shotgun on the market."

That's news to me. My brother's police department (he's the Chief) have used them for years, and no one's ever complained.

I prefer side-by-side doubles, but that's only me. The pumps are probably the best way to go.

LucifersPants
December 5, 2008, 11:04 AM
drdriller...while I've never owned a Remmy 870, but I have fired several of them shooting skeet with friends, and never had an issue. New/old/clean/dirty, they all worked quite well. I do have a Mossberg 590 that has never had a single issue, and I've put thousands of rounds through it...slugs, 00 buck, target loads (despite it's 20" barrel, I have lots of fun busting clays with it, and I can generally hit about 2 out of 3 targets...doubles are a little tough with a pump) Sometimes I get a chuckle or two when I first take the gun out of the case, but they usually shut right up when I start hitting more targets than they do with their $2000 semi-autos.

Maybe you just got a lemon?? I suppose that can happen with anything. I hope you get it sorted out. Good luck.

New_Pollution1086
December 5, 2008, 12:45 PM
user error

T

johnwilliamson062
December 5, 2008, 07:11 PM
you have to understand how manufacturing works. Getting a tighter action means lower tolerance and more problems. Of course it can me manufactured with smoother finished parts to equal this out but it is just going to cost more. Tighter action is done either to sound pretty or be more accurate. Accuracy isn't really a factor in shotguns, sounding/feeling nice never got me anywhere.

I will seconds there is either a user error or you need to send the gun back. With the wide open tolerances on an 870/500 you should be able to cycle a shell after running it over with your car.

jammin1237
December 5, 2008, 07:31 PM
+1 iuindy21 -- win 1300s still rock the best and i would bet my life on em...too bad its not in production any more................

gustav129
December 5, 2008, 07:36 PM
It might also be the fit of the gun. I have short fingers, so I went with the Moss 835 instead of the Rem 870 for the safety and the "racking" button. I can't reach to the front of the trigger guard to press it. My 835 has it behind the trigger guard (where the safety is on the 870). I remember having troubles trying to rack shells through as a kid because of the "awkward to me" possition of the button.

"Racking" Button (Sorry for the crappy cell phone pics):
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s109/gustav129/Image006.jpg

Perfect Place:
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s109/gustav129/Image000-1.jpg

I wouldn't be able to reach the button on the 870:
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s109/gustav129/Image002-1.jpg

johnwilliamson062
December 5, 2008, 10:32 PM
+1 iuindy21 -- win 1300s still rock the best and i would bet my life on em...too bad its not in production any more...............
Shotguns seem to be more personal fit and preference than any other gun, but I had a 1300 for two days, almost threw up everytime I touched it and sold it under value just to get rid of it.

Nnobby45
December 5, 2008, 10:52 PM
I can't reach to the front of the trigger guard to press it. My 835 has it behind the trigger guard (where the safety is on the 870). I remember having troubles trying to rack shells through as a kid because of the "awkward to me" possition of the ...

Your fingers are not suppose to reach the front of the trigger guard when you have the gun to shoulder firing position.

The placement of the ACTION BAR RELEASE at the front of the trigger guard requires that you operate it with your TRIGGER FINGER out of the trigger guard. See the safety aspect here?

Lower the shotgun from your shoulder to to high ready (tuck but under arm) and simply operate the release. Notice how you can't inadvertently disengage the safety while, as mentioned, your finger is outside the trigger guard? Notice how easy it is to check the chamber quickly, and in a safe manner? Notice how it's impossible to confuse the safety with the action bar release--at least for left handed shooters? :cool:

Swampghost
December 5, 2008, 11:10 PM
Why a shotgun for HD? The average 'confrontation distance' is 8-12 ft. and toting a longarm invites defeat. Pistols reign in close quarters.

rdrancher
December 5, 2008, 11:29 PM
toting a longarm invites defeat.

:rolleyes: You can't be serious.


rd

gustav129
December 5, 2008, 11:29 PM
Your fingers are not suppose to reach the front of the trigger guard when you have the gun to shoulder firing position.

The placement of the ACTION BAR RELEASE at the front of the trigger guard requires that you operate it with your TRIGGER FINGER out of the trigger guard. See the safety aspect here?

Lower the shotgun from your shoulder to to high ready (tuck but under arm) and simply operate the release. Notice how you can't inadvertently disengage the safety while, as mentioned, your finger is outside the trigger guard? Notice how easy it is to check the chamber quickly, and in a safe manner? Notice how it's impossible to confuse the safety with the action bar release--at least for left handed shooters?

So you are saying that I'm in the wrong because my hands are small? By what you are saying, I would have to hold the shotgun with my elbow tucking it into my side to rack a shell in the chamber. Did I even say that I rack the gun in shoulder firing position?

I like the Mossberg because I can remain in control of the gun at all times. My strong hand is my right hand. The Action Bar release is outside of the trigger gaurd, behind it. So My trigger finger is outside of the trigger gaurd, and I don't have to let go of absolute control of my gun See the safety aspect here?

Notice how easy and quick it is for me to check the chamber by turning it sideways and racking it without leting go of the stock on my shotgun for even a nano second?
Notice my safety is on top of the receiver, so I don't confuse my safety with my action action release, when I do shoot my shotgun left handed (I'm left eye dominant)?

What you are saying could cost me a rooster if I had to let go of my shotgun with my right hand what so ever, especially if I flush one in the middle of reloading. With this set up, if I'm loading a shell, I can rack it as I'm raising the shotgun to my shoulder, sight in a rooster, and press the safety with my thumb, all in one quick motion.

isanchez2008
December 5, 2008, 11:32 PM
I have had my Remington 870 Magnum for 6 years now and it has had at least 5000 rounds of target loads, 500 slugs, and around 1000 rounds of buckshot through it. The only hickups have been due to operator error. I would have yours looked at by a COMPETENT gunsmith. These shotguns are great and will run with bad ammo, good ammo and under gnarly conditions. Once the issue is fixed I am sure you will be very happy with your 870. Good luck

MarketingGuy
December 5, 2008, 11:43 PM
Plenty of Remington defenders here, it seems. I guess I'll chime in on the Mossberg side. Not to just dismiss your complaint, but my wife's HD shotgun is the Mossberg Cruiser, the short-barrel pistol-grip version. She's got hundreds of rounds through it with no problems. With the short barrel and the pistol-grip stock, we think it's pretty much the perfect HD weapon.

gustav129
December 6, 2008, 12:06 AM
For Home Defense, I would like to get the Mossberg JIC Cruiser.

nemoaz
December 6, 2008, 01:02 AM
So you are saying that I'm in the wrong because my hands are small? By what you are saying, I would have to hold the shotgun with my elbow tucking it into my side to rack a shell in the chamber. Did I even say that I rack the gun in shoulder firing position?I don't think that is what he's saying. You simply move your strong hand forward slightly to manipulate the action bar release. It's easily done and you still have the rest of your fingers wrapped about the weapon. It does require you to move your hand and you'd have to move the hand back to get on trigger.

Alternatively, you can leave your shotgun "cruiser ready" (hammer down, full magazine, safety on) or "rack ready" (hammer down, magazine empty, safety on). Then you don't have to hit the action bar release. I personally leave my shotguns cruiser ready mostly because that's the way I've been trained.

I too prefer Mossberg's controls over the Remington, but the Remington is certainly easy enough to use.

hogdogs
December 6, 2008, 09:34 AM
Swamp, I gotta hollar "poo-poo" on the shotgun=defeat... I challenge any man/men to a dry fire training exercise inside my home. Since we are talking training exercise I will remain inside my bedroom until you close my door. This will take place in total darkness. I bet my 500 that I have "taken kills" before my gun is removed from my control.
folks need to train and remember that a shor gun is both a fire arm, a club and a spear. While it won't likely penetrate, when used as a spear it can slow down forward attack with a solid thrust to the gut, sternum or throat.
I do not advocate a bayonet as in the scuffle it could end up harming me.
Hand guns cannot be used by me as effectively as my 2 handed grip has my hands closer together for less leverage. Plus it cannot be used as a club as well...
Brent

Katrina Guy
December 6, 2008, 12:55 PM
being a deliberate placement on Remington's for saftety's sake?
Interesting concept, then I reckon Mossbergs are the most unsafe shotguns on the market. Having both an 870 HD model and a Mossberg Persuader, never fired either yet (recent acquistions), just on the surface if you will, it's one thing to leave your car and walk a few yards into the woods in a hunting situation and at your leisure switch hands to acquire by reach the slide release on an 870, activate it, and then continue your walk deeper into the woods , then it is to (if one keeps their HD shotgun unchambered) be awakened in the middle of the night and have to reach for your shotgun, THEN reach around with your other hand to activate the slide release, or if you gun were to jam in the middle of it all and if you had to play this musical hands game yet once again to get to the slide release...well....I'd choose my rickity unsafe slide position Mossberg Persuader over my Remington 870.
Always amazed in the loyality of different brands, as if some of the poster's actually had something to do with it's design. It's a tool, some tools are made better then others, some tools are more user friendly if you will, then others.

Dave McC
December 6, 2008, 07:19 PM
Swamp, kindly cite your reasons for your statement. Thanks....

nemoaz
December 6, 2008, 10:12 PM
Why a shotgun for HD? The average 'confrontation distance' is 8-12 ft. and toting a longarm invites defeat. Pistols reign in close quarters.
This guy smoked too many issues of Handgun Magazine. I note that no military or police dept agrees with you. Yet to see soldiers or SRT sling their carbines and shotguns in order to use their pistols so as to "reign in close quarters".

johnwilliamson062
December 6, 2008, 11:12 PM
Quote:
toting a longarm invites defeat.
You can't be serious.
I would much prefer to meet a Desert Eagle at 12 feet in competent hands than a Moss 500 at 12 feet in untrained hands.
30 24 caliber projectiles!!!! Jeesh, that will mess up anyone.
Like many before me said, a pistol is only good to fight your way back to your long guns.

Nnobby45
December 7, 2008, 01:03 AM
So you are saying that I'm in the wrong because my hands are small? By what you are saying, I would have to hold the shotgun with my elbow tucking it into my side to rack a shell in the chamber. Did I even say that I rack the gun in shoulder firing position?

I'm saying that I saw your picture with your hand gripping the shot gun as if you were shooting, and read the phrase "I wouldn't be able to reach the button on the 870".

Then I pointed out how to properly "reach the button". 870 shooters don't "miss their rooster" because they don't have control of their shotgun. For new shooters, there might be a slight learning curve.

But, the main thing I'm saying is that if you prefer the Mossberg that's fine. No need to make the 870 sound like it's difficult to use.

Slopemeno
December 7, 2008, 03:09 AM
I don't know exactly how much shotgun experience you have, so let me try this: When I go out to the hunting field, I'm rarely hitting the slide release to see if my chamber is loaded- it IS and I know that. If I want to hit the slide release on my 870, I extend my index and middle finger alongside the trigger guard, and slide my hand slightly forward and sweep my fingers acrosss the slide release. I then return my right hand to the usual location.

If I shoot the gun dry in a hunting situation, I would find out by the gun not going bang- in that case open the action (notice that it didn't require hitting the slide release- the hammer was down) drop a live round in the chamber with your weak hand (various schools say come up from underneath or over the top) and with your weak hand sweep the pump handle forward. Now load the magazine.

Oh, and try reloading with your weak hand, so that would be your left if youre right handed. You can keep your eyes "outside" so to speak, and scan (and watch where your muzzle points as well).

FWIW I was a gunsmith and department armorer for years for lots of agencies, and at the time all of them used 870s. We would recertify about 200 different 870's every year for duty, and I never saw park rangers, SWAT guys, even low time officers ever say, "Hey, I can't reach that". All of our customers who shot 3-gun matches, bowling pins, and IPSC/USPSA never complained about it either, for that matter.

Heck, nobody even makes a ridiculous oversized lever as an accessory, and that's saying something...

Dave McC
December 7, 2008, 08:53 AM
My $0.02....

Like oversized safeties, the bigger it is, the easier it is to hit unintentionally.

I trained a few hundred folks to shoot shotguns for MD DOC. There were few that had problems reaching the controls. Few indeed were shotgunners before the fact.

IMO, some folks are seeking a hardware solution to a software problem.

Swampghost, still waiting for that explanation....

gustav129
December 8, 2008, 02:37 AM
I'm saying that I saw your picture with your hand gripping the shot gun as if you were shooting, and read the phrase "I wouldn't be able to reach the button on the 870".

The second pic posted is how I am always holding my shot gun, all four fingers wrapped around the stock at all times, wether its in my lap in the duckblind, on my shoulder, in both arms, or cradled in my left arm. The picture of index finger outstretched only as a reference to show how short my fingers are compared to where the location of the action release button.

nemoaz
December 8, 2008, 03:31 AM
IMO, some folks are seeking a hardware solution to a software problem.Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!