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BADMAN400
November 24, 2008, 11:49 PM
Hey guys, here are the latest pics of "BattleAxe", the new SBR I built out of my Kel-Tec PLR-16.

I used the stock conversion from Kel-Tec made for the SU-16C rifle and added the MagPul CTR stock and Ace folder.

As far as I know this is the first (only?) one of it's kind.

Just installed the Ace folding block today. Makes for a lightweight, mean little package.


http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f89/badman400/Kel-Tecs/PLR-SBR11-24-08002.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f89/badman400/Kel-Tecs/PLR-SBR11-24-08003.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f89/badman400/Kel-Tecs/PLR-SBR11-24-08006.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f89/badman400/Kel-Tecs/PLR-SBR11-24-08007.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f89/badman400/Kel-Tecs/PLR-SBR11-24-08008.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f89/badman400/Kel-Tecs/PLR-SBR11-24-08012.jpg

teeroux
November 25, 2008, 03:58 AM
Nice.:)

Its what Kel-Tec should have made to begin with.:confused:

PTK
November 25, 2008, 05:45 AM
My PLR-16 will have the standard folding stock from Kel-Tec once my F1 comes back. Basically their SU16D9 model. :)

BADMAN400
November 25, 2008, 07:52 AM
Thanks.

Yeah, the D model is basically what I ended up with, except no chrome lined bbl on the PLR. :cool:

PTK
November 25, 2008, 09:26 AM
Mine has my M4-1000 silencer on it, too. Even with the stock extended, the math works out to it being VERY short, and it should be very reliable and quiet too. :)

smee78
November 25, 2008, 11:05 AM
Nice, very nice!

flight954
November 25, 2008, 02:18 PM
I likey very very much. Nice work

VUPDblue
November 26, 2008, 10:42 PM
Curiously, where and how was it engraved? Would you mind posting a close-up pic of the engraving? (you can photochop your name)

BADMAN400
November 26, 2008, 10:45 PM
Still looking for an engraver. ATF said to get it done asap. :confused:

PTK
November 26, 2008, 10:46 PM
I had mine engraved on the barrel - BATFE said it's legal even though it's under the handguard partially.

BADMAN400

If it's not engraved already, it's illegal. You should have it done ASAP.

David Hineline
November 27, 2008, 01:00 AM
I just picked up the .22lr version of your pistol, and want to do the same thing for an otpion for SBR other than the 10-22.

Keltec says they are out of the stock adapters with no time frame.

BADMAN400
November 27, 2008, 01:15 AM
PTK, I spoke with Nancy F. at the BATFE about the engraving to make sure I was not in jeopardy. She verified that there was no set time limit on getting the engraving done, but to just get it done as soon as I could.

PTK
November 27, 2008, 01:42 AM
Nancy Flannigan should know better. It's a legal requirement that all NFA items that do not specifically hold an engraving variance be engraved in letters no smaller than 1/16" tall and at least 0.003" deep.

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 27, Volume 2]

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 479--MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS--Table of Contents

Subpart G--Registration and Identification of Firearms

Sec. 479.102 How must firearms be identified?

(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must
legibly identify the firearm as follows:
(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual
serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must
not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller
than 1/16 inch; and
(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain
additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information
includes:
(i) The model, if such designation has been made;
(ii) The caliber or gauge;
(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when
applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State
(or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer
maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the
firearm; and

[[Page 189]]

(v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in
which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized
abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of
business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see
Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.
(b) The depth of all markings required by this section will be
measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges.
The height of serial numbers required by paragraph (a)(1) of this
section will be measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of
the character impression bottoms (bases).
(c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon
receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate,
showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder
the effective administration of this part.
(d) In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize
other means of identifying that weapon upon receipt of a letter
application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that engraving,
casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon would be dangerous or
impracticable.
(e) A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a
complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed
of by you must be identified as required by this section.
(f)(1) Any part defined as a machine gun, muffler, or silencer for
the purposes of this part that is not a component part of a complete
firearm at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you
must be identified as required by this section.
(2) The Director may authorize other means of identification of
parts defined as machine guns other than frames or receivers and parts
defined as mufflers or silencers upon receipt of a letter application
from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification
is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this
part.

(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number
1512-0550)

[T.D. ATF-461, 66 FR 40601, Aug. 3, 2001]



There is no time limit contained in the phrase "you must". "You must" means just that - you MUST have the item engraved. Must. It's the law, friend. :)

(and before you say "hey, I'm not a maker!" the form 1 was an application to MAKE a firearm per the 1934NFA.)

BADMAN400
November 27, 2008, 08:01 AM
Yep, I have all of the same info.

I can use my pocket knife. I MUST get right on it. :D

PTK
November 27, 2008, 09:18 AM
Joke all you'd like, the BATFE won't find your jokes funny enough to keep you out of court if you're caught with an unmarked NFA item.

BADMAN400
November 27, 2008, 09:49 AM
PTK, I was only trying to keep it lite instead of telling you to **** off and mind your own business. But since you won't let it go, understand this; I am a grown man, law abiding, a patriot, a father and a grandfather. I researched all the steps and found out the process with the help of some very knowledgeable people. So I do appreciate someone trying to help in a good natured spirit, but enough is enough. I will get my SBR engraved because it is the law. As for you, take a chill pill, quit trying to be someone else's father figure, and mind your own business!:cool:

PTK
November 27, 2008, 09:57 AM
In so many words: I don't care what you do, think the NFA is entirely BS, but to post about things online that aren't quite legal... doesn't strike me as smart.

But, since this is America (and for that I am thankful!), it's fine by me, friend. Enjoy your new toy. I can hardly wait for my own F1 to come back! :)


And again? VERY nice SBR. I'm thinking hard about doing something more along those lines than the D model, now...

BADMAN400
November 27, 2008, 10:11 AM
PTK, you're right. I guess I should've played it a little closer to the belt, but I just try to be honest. I have made every attempt to verify that I'm OK until I get Orion to do the engraving. I have exchanged several emails with them and am in the process of satisfying the law's requirements. It will be done very soon.

I apologize for my last post on a personal level. Didn't mean to come on so strong. But I just felt pushed and I don't do as well with that as maybe I should sometimes. I am a member of several gun forums, some for over four years now and I believe that was the only "negative" sounding post I ever published.

Stay safe out there, have a great Thanksgiving holiday, and enjoy the gun sports LEGALLY!

Better? ;)

PTK
November 27, 2008, 10:13 AM
Orion Arms does a fantastic job of engraving. And for ~$40, you'll be quite happy.

BADMAN400
November 27, 2008, 10:19 AM
Now if I can just figure out where to put the engraving. :confused:

PTK
November 27, 2008, 10:21 AM
"frame, receiver, or barrel". Easiest, since it's plastic, is the barrel. That's what I ended up doing. :)

BADMAN400
November 27, 2008, 10:25 AM
I'm thinking of having the name "BattleAxe" (with the image of an old viking battle axe), engraved on one side (on the receiver just below the EOTech), and my name (as maker), city & state, on the other. :cool:

PTK
November 27, 2008, 10:30 AM
That'll work - make sure to specify having it engraved deeper than usual, so that it can't be rubbed off on accident. :)

(As for the funny name, I have "Man Handler" engraved on a single-shot 12ga pistol... :D)

ScottsGT
December 3, 2008, 06:58 PM
But where does it say that installing a short barrel is "Making" a firearm? As in taking an AR-15 lower, paying the tax, and going thru an SOT FFL and doing the form 4? I'm being told that RRA MADE the firearm, they had it numbered. FFL now had it registered as a SBR and transferred it. no engraving necessary.
Signed,
Confused and want to stay out of trouble!!

PTK
December 3, 2008, 07:01 PM
In the case of a form 1 (which this PLR SBR is on), the act/title of the form is "Application to make and register a firearm". :)

BADMAN400
December 3, 2008, 07:03 PM
Actually the PLR started with the barrel it has now, as a long barrel pistol. When I added the stock to a pistol, THEN I was "making" a short barrel rifle.

I know, it's all stupid. :rolleyes:

A lot of the BATFE rules and the 922 rules just plain don't make a lot of sense. :cool:

PTK
December 3, 2008, 07:08 PM
I haven't found a firearms law that made sense yet. They're all arbitrary and pointless.