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RF11
November 21, 2008, 03:30 PM
Some of you may remember the photos of my new to me Under and Over shotgun I posted last week. Well I took her out again to day and began to experience a FTF on the second shot (top barrel).

The shotgun has a single trigger and always fires on the first shot (bottom barrel) however on the occasional second shot, the trigger will not disengage from safe, ie: the firing pin is not released. This only happens on random rounds there is no sequence to it.

I was told by the rangemaster that the gun operates on a recoil system: after the first shot fires (bottom barrel) the safety is dropped off (the top barrel) to allow the second shot. This so two rounds are not fired with a single trigger pull.

Has anybody experienced the same kind of malfunction? What can cause it?

If so, how can it be fixed?

BigJimP
November 21, 2008, 07:24 PM
Its almost impossible to tell unless someone was standing next to you on the field. I'll just rattle off some stuff that it might be - and you'll have to sort it out best you can / or take the gun to a good gunsmith that knows that mfg and model reasonably well . I don't remember if your gun is used or new - sorry ?

You might be trapping the trigger / will it fire if you release the trigger and pull it a 2nd time ?

It could be a firing pin or a firing pin spring problem / corroded, dirty, etc?

It could be an ammo problem ? If the shell doesn't fire in the top barrel / switch it to the other barrel - will it fire there ? When the gun is empty / are the firing pins sticking out of the breech of the gun the same length ? A few thousandths shorter on top, may cause a soft primer strike. If you look at 2 fired shells - do the primer impressions look the same when shells are fired in both barrels ?

Are you shooting reloads ? If you are / check your primer seating. If you're not, try changing ammo.

Its possible if you really let go as the gun recoils, its not setting the 2nd firing pin - but I doubt it - but if you don't hang onto it, in rare cases, this can be an issue.

I would take the stock off ( even if its a new gun ) - make sure there is no debris in there around the firing pins, no corrosion on the pins, springs look ok, make sure they're lubed ( I like Rig oil, inside my O/U's ) - take it back to the range and see if that changes anything ?? I always take the stock off a new gun / make sure they didn't leave any junk in there that doesn't belong ...but if you're not comfortable doing that, and its a new gun, take it back to your dealer and see if they can look at it.

Good luck, I hope it turns out to be something easy to fix.

zippy13
November 21, 2008, 10:06 PM
RF11

I have several guns with inertia selectors. I'm not sure about your gun, you didn't mention the make/model. Just because the rangemaster says you have an inertia trigger doesn't make it so -- are you sure? With a typical inertia failure, the mechanism doesn't move sufficiently to switch to the second hammer. So, for your second shot, you're really trying to shoot the first barrel a second time. And, there's the telltale sign that the trigger feels totally disconnected from the works.

The only times I've ever had trouble with any of my inertia trigger guns is when I've shot very light loads (.410's in a tubed 12-ga) or used a recoil reducer (a JS Air Cushioned stock). In each case, there wasn't enough force to set the second sear. The solution was the installation of a heaver inertia blocks.

In addition to having too light a load, or a recoil buffer, shooting style can cause a "low-recoil" malfunction, also. If you don't have the gun tight against your shoulder, or are shooting from the hip, you may not be providing enough resistance to set the second sear.

Of course, there are mechanical problems that can hinder the selector's proper operation. If still under warranty, take your gun in to be serviced. Otherwise, as BigJimP said, it's time to remove the stock, or drop out the trigger, for an investigation.

Check to see if the inertia mechanism reciprocates/swings smoothly, it should be under only light spring pressure. To do this, pull the trigger while easing the first hammer down. This is when the inertia form the first shot would normally set the second sear. You can simulate the recoil by whacking the action into something substantial, or manually cycle the selector (the preferred initial method). With the rearward motion, you should be able to see/feel the release of the first hammer and upon return you'll see/feel the engagement of the second sear. These actions should feel very smooth, if you detect any roughness, or binding, look for dirt or poorly fitted/broken/missing components. Hopefully your gun needs nothing more than a good cleaning, fresh lubricants, good ammo and correct shooting habits.

A reference procedure: With the barrels removed, and the first hammer de-cocked, firmly hold the stock by the grip in your right hand (I know you're a lefty) and bump the butt smartly with the heal of your left (strong) hand. This should provide enough force to cycle the inertial sear selector. This is the same action you'll see after a tournament as shooters de-cock their inertia trigger guns before stowing them. It may also work after a FTF, but exercise EXTREME CAUTION with a loaded gun. Note: This is based on a typical gun without an external selector. With an external selector, de-cocking the second barrel or shifting barrels after a FTF can be usually done using the external selector without the butt bump.

RF11
November 22, 2008, 07:14 AM
BigJimp thanks for all the possibilities let me answer them.

You might be trapping the trigger / will it fire if you release the trigger and pull it a 2nd time ?

No I always release and try again

It could be a firing pin or a firing pin spring problem / corroded, dirty, etc?

There is no dimple on the primer the pin isn't released.

It could be an ammo problem ? If the shell doesn't fire in the top barrel / switch it to the other barrel - will it fire there ? When the gun is empty / are the firing pins sticking out of the breech of the gun the same length ? A few thousandths shorter on top, may cause a soft primer strike. If you look at 2 fired shells - do the primer impressions look the same when shells are fired in both barrels ?


All Ammo fires and when the second shot does take the dimple looks the same as the first.

Are you shooting reloads ? If you are / check your primer seating. If you're not, try changing ammo.

Factory ammo only

Its possible if you really let go as the gun recoils, its not setting the 2nd firing pin - but I doubt it - but if you don't hang onto it, in rare cases, this can be an issue.

This is what I thought it may be as the rangemaster explained (limp wristing came to mind) however I would expect the gun to transfer the sear with even minimal resistance. I guess that warrants a look by a gunsmith.

zippy13

RF11

I have several guns with inertia selectors. I'm not sure about your gun, you didn't mention the make/model. Just because the rangemaster says you have an inertia trigger doesn't make it so -- are you sure? With a typical inertia failure, the mechanism doesn't move sufficiently to switch to the second hammer. So, for your second shot, you're really trying to shoot the first barrel a second time. And, there's the telltale sign that the trigger feels totally disconnected from the works.

That sounds like it


The only times I've ever had trouble with any of my inertia trigger guns is when I've shot very light loads (.410's in a tubed 12-ga) or used a recoil reducer (a JS Air Cushioned stock). In each case, there wasn't enough force to set the second sear. The solution was the installation of a heaver inertia blocks.

In addition to having too light a load, or a recoil buffer, shooting style can cause a "low-recoil" malfunction, also. If you don't have the gun tight against your shoulder, or are shooting from the hip, you may not be providing enough resistance to set the second sear.


I would expect a trap gun to be able to handle trap loads, as for shooting stance it was always tight and I have a little strength and size to me


Of course, there are mechanical problems that can hinder the selector's proper operation. If still under warranty, take your gun in to be serviced. Otherwise, as BigJimP said, it's time to remove the stock, or drop out the trigger, for an investigation.

Check to see if the inertia mechanism reciprocates/swings smoothly, it should be under only light spring pressure. To do this, pull the trigger while easing the first hammer down. This is when the inertia form the first shot would normally set the second sear. You can simulate the recoil by whacking the action into something substantial, or manually cycle the selector (the preferred initial method). With the rearward motion, you should be able to see/feel the release of the first hammer and upon return you'll see/feel the engagement of the second sear. These actions should feel very smooth, if you detect any roughness, or binding, look for dirt or poorly fitted/broken/missing components. Hopefully your gun needs nothing more than a good cleaning, fresh lubricants, good ammo and correct shooting habits.

A reference procedure: With the barrels removed, and the first hammer de-cocked, firmly hold the stock by the grip in your right hand (I know you're a lefty) and bump the butt smartly with the heal of your left (strong) hand. This should provide enough force to cycle the inertial sear selector. This is the same action you'll see after a tournament as shooters de-cock their inertia trigger guns before stowing them. It may also work after a FTF, but exercise EXTREME CAUTION with a loaded gun. Note: This is based on a typical gun without an external selector. With an external selector, de-cocking the second barrel or shifting barrels after a FTF can be usually done using the external selector without the butt bump.

As I said before I guess I'm off to the gunsmith.

Thanks again BigJimp and Zippy13

BigJimP
November 22, 2008, 05:38 PM
Let us know what you figure out please .

zippy13
November 22, 2008, 08:02 PM
Let us know what you figure out please .
Same here! I'm curious, too. Since the problem is intermittent, it can't be a missing part. My money's on a poorly fitted part. Jim, you wanna put yours on gummed up grease?

RF11
November 23, 2008, 07:01 AM
Will do should be heading to a smith in the next couple of days will post as soon at it is fixed.

RF11
November 26, 2008, 03:46 PM
Well was heading to a gunsmith today but as he opened at 1600 and I had the afternoon off I decided to head to the range first to see if the gun would malfunction, I tried shooting from the 'hip'; hands only no stock to the shoulder. Gun Worked. 6 shells as fast as I could load. Gun worked. I then shot a round 24 clays no malfunction. (21 hits out of 24 :D )

I spoke with the rangemaster and called the gunsmith to tell him that the gun was functioning fine he told me he would stop by the range. He arrived and opened up the gun nothing was wrong except the internals were a bit dry. He gave it a clean and lube and said the best thing to do was try all different kinds of ammo and if it happened again to call him.

BigJimP
November 26, 2008, 03:50 PM
Morale of the story - take those guns apart / take stocks off an O/U and clean and lube ..... ( I would recommend you do that at least twice a year / and every time you shoot in the rain ).

Thanks for letting us know what you found.

RF11
November 26, 2008, 04:09 PM
Yeah but the gun shot fine before I cleaned it, so I'm just confused now. Later this week I will go and buy a box of every type of AMMO I can find and set about destroying my shoulder.

hogdogs
November 26, 2008, 04:20 PM
Since it is frowned upon by the TFL consensus I will leave the cooler full of beer part out of it...
Instead of tearing up "your" shoulder... Invite a few buddies over and commence to swappin the gun from person to person blowin up milk jugs etc... and before you know it the gun's reliability will be determined, the ammo will be gone and NO ONE has a tore down shoulder...
Brent

RF11
November 26, 2008, 04:24 PM
Yeah but i am a bit of a sadist :cool: , Plus Most of my buddy's aren't that gun savvy and will probably cause a malfunction or shoot their foot off.

zippy13
November 27, 2008, 12:29 PM
Yeah but the gun shot fine before I cleaned it, so I'm just confused now. Later this week I will go and buy a box of every type of AMMO I can find and set about destroying my shoulder.
RF11, some years ago I had a similar experience, I showed up for a tournament with a freshly cleaned gun and it wouldn't set for the second shot. In the process of changing to a back-up gun, my concentration went down the toilet and my score followed. Between events, I had a look at the trigger assemble to try to figure out what had happened. Every thing looked perfect, but the selector wouldn't cycle. Then I noticed small spot of white... a little bit of rag lint had found its way to a critical location. With the lint removed, the trigger functioned perfectly.
Sometimes, the problem isn't with the gun, but with the cleaning. This may sound superstitious, and fits into the "if it ain't broke, don't mess with it" category: Since the lint incident, I won't shoot a "clean gun" in competition. After a tear-down cleaning, the gun has to prove itself on the practice field.
Morale of the story - take those guns apart / take stocks off an O/U and clean and lube ..... ( I would recommend you do that at least twice a year / and every time you shoot in the rain ).
Thanks for letting us know what you found.
+1
Glad to hear all is well.