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saboteur
November 17, 2008, 10:58 AM
I just bought an Auto Ordnance Tommy Gun, and I was wanting to buy the 10.5" barrel from Auto Ordnance to turn my Tommy Gun into an SBR.

Where can I get the forms that I need to fill out and file with the ATF prior to purchasing the short barrel? Is it available online, or do I need to order a packet from the ATF?

Thanks.

Wiskey_33
November 17, 2008, 12:55 PM
Outdated?

What if you need no CLEO sign off, will it still pass?

VUPDblue
November 17, 2008, 02:09 PM
do not try to submit that Form 1. It will get kicked back. The new Form 1's have the CLEO cert. on the front.

PTK
November 17, 2008, 05:50 PM
FWIW, I've had both approved in recent years - the new and the old one.

aroundlsu
November 17, 2008, 06:09 PM
I just had the old one approved about a month ago and I just sent out the old one for another SBR. If you search "ATF Form 1" you'll see the old one is still hosted at ATF.gov so I don't see how they would kickback a form they still provide.

http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53201.pdf

Wiskey_33
November 18, 2008, 07:56 AM
I think I sent in the outdated forms as well, which came to me through a dealer, and are now pending.

saboteur
November 18, 2008, 01:07 PM
What other forms or documents get sent with it? I am guessing the form, a money order or check, and a fingerprint card. Right?

saboteur
November 24, 2008, 12:39 AM
any help with my last question?

GE-Minigun
November 24, 2008, 08:04 AM
What other forms or documents get sent with it? I am guessing the form, a money order or check, and a fingerprint card. Right?

First and foremost, you must ensure that SBS/SBR's are lawful in your state of residence. After that, and assuming SBS's are lawful in your state, you must:

- Complete and sign 2 copies of ATF Form 5320.1 (Form 1 - Application to Make and Register a Firearm)
- Attach 1 passport-style photos to each Form 1 (2 photos total)
- Obtain the original signature (certification) of the Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) in your area on each Form 1. The CLEO may be the Chief of Police of your town, the Sheriff of your county or a District Attorney, among others. Depending on where you live and who you know this may be easy to obtain, or it may be virtually impossible.
- Complete and sign 1 copy of ATF Form 5330.20 "Certificate of Compliance"
- Include 2 sets of your fingerprints on ATF FD-258 fingerprint cards.
- Send all forms (with attached photos) and fingerprint cards, along with a $200 check (or money order) for payment of the Making Tax, to the address on the form. I recommend Registered Mail for this.
- Wait, wait, wait some more
- In approximately 30-180 days, ATF will return 1 original approved Form to you.

After ATF returns the approved form you may lawfully assemble or "make" your SBS. Please note that you cannot lawfully make the SBS/SBR until after ATF has approved your application, neither should you possess the parts to complete the SBS/SBR until you have received the approved form. As soon as you get the form back, make several GOOD copies of it, and put the original one up in a safe place like a fire safe, lock box or even better, a safe deposit box. The ATF WILL NOT replace it if you lose it, they will send you a crappy photocopy. REMEMBER...this form keeps your butt out of jail.

You will also need to mark the frame, receiver, or barrel with the following info by engraving or stamping. (This information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. and plainly visible, not hidden under the fore-end)
- Your
- City, state

saboteur
November 24, 2008, 11:32 AM
GE,
Thanks. Just for clarification, is the correct fingerprint card the 258LE (NFA, Imports, etc.)?

I ordered the forms from the ATF website.

GE-Minigun
November 24, 2008, 02:14 PM
Yes - FBI FD-258LE - NFA, Imports, ORI WVATF0800

ScottsGT
December 3, 2008, 06:44 PM
Can someone point me to the BATFE rules on engraving an existing and built/functioning rifle into a SBR? I've spent two hours on the BATFE website and all I can find is engraving specs and requirements for mfgr of new firearms, but not conversion of a firearm to SBR status.

saboteur
December 4, 2008, 05:40 PM
In the space that asks barrel length...am I supposed to put what barrel length it is now? Or what length I will make it?

MisterPX
December 4, 2008, 08:05 PM
Scott; by filing a form 1, you are manufacturing a SBR, a "new" firearm. You can reuse the serial #, but gotta engrave manufacturer ( your info) info.

V.Oller
December 4, 2008, 10:30 PM
Have you thought of trying the Trust route?

Just got my SBR paper back. Took just over 3 months. No pic, CLEO sign off and no finger prints. Used Form 1 (OMB No. 1512-0024) and ATF 5330 (1140-0061). Just hurry up and wait.

ScottsGT
December 4, 2008, 11:04 PM
MisterPX,
I'm referring to an FFL with a SOT registering a standard AR-15 made by another mfgr. as a SBR then doing a transfer to a customer on a Form 4.

aroundlsu
December 5, 2008, 12:35 PM
Put the barrel length you intend to make. If you change your mind later you can always update the ATF with a letter.

PTK
December 5, 2008, 12:58 PM
I'm referring to an FFL with a SOT registering a standard AR-15 made by another mfgr. as a SBR then doing a transfer to a customer on a Form 4.

In that case the FFL should have marked the lower with his info, as he "made" the lower in a legal sense per the 1934NFA.

ScottsGT
December 5, 2008, 01:59 PM
In that case the FFL should have marked the lower with his info, as he "made" the lower in a legal sense per the 1934NFA.


This is exactly the info I have been searching for on the BATFE website. What clearifies registering or making? The lower is already "made" and listed as a firearm.

OK, who can direct me to a person/address where I can write a letter to the ATF on this issue?

PTK
December 5, 2008, 02:04 PM
No need to write a letter, the law is quite clear...


[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 27, Volume 2]

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 479--MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS--Table of Contents

Subpart G--Registration and Identification of Firearms

Sec. 479.102 How must firearms be identified?

(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must
legibly identify the firearm as follows:
(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual
serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must
not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller
than 1/16 inch; and
(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain
additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information
includes:
(i) The model, if such designation has been made;
(ii) The caliber or gauge;
(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when
applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State
(or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer
maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the
firearm; and

[[Page 189]]

(v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in
which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized
abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of
business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see
Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.
(b) The depth of all markings required by this section will be
measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges.
The height of serial numbers required by paragraph (a)(1) of this
section will be measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of
the character impression bottoms (bases).
(c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon
receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate,
showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder
the effective administration of this part.
(d) In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize
other means of identifying that weapon upon receipt of a letter
application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that engraving,
casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon would be dangerous or
impracticable.
(e) A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a
complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed
of by you must be identified as required by this section.
(f)(1) Any part defined as a machine gun, muffler, or silencer for
the purposes of this part that is not a component part of a complete
firearm at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you
must be identified as required by this section.
(2) The Director may authorize other means of identification of
parts defined as machine guns other than frames or receivers and parts
defined as mufflers or silencers upon receipt of a letter application
from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification
is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this
part.

(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number
1512-0550)

[T.D. ATF-461, 66 FR 40601, Aug. 3, 2001]


For the 1934NFA, an SOT taking a Title I receiver and registering it as a Title II SBR is "making" a gun, and the gun must be marked with the SOT's information. Clear as a bell, right there in the law.


Again, NO NEED FOR A LETTER!

ScottsGT
December 5, 2008, 02:06 PM
That is just the point of argument. WHO is the manufacturer?? RRA that originally mfgrd it, or is it considered a new mfgr by just installing a short upper on it and registering it as a SBR??
The above just talks about Manufacture of a firearm, not changing status of a firearm?
This is what I want clearified.

Where does it say this in the above:
For the 1934NFA, an SOT taking a Title I receiver and registering it as a Title II SBR is "making" a gun, and the gun must be marked with the SOT's information. Clear as a bell, right there in the law.

PTK
December 5, 2008, 02:08 PM
That's extremely clear - that section of law is for NFA items - RRA manufactured it as a Title I firearm, the SOT manufactured it into a Title II. BOTH of them must have the receiver marked.

ScottsGT
December 5, 2008, 02:18 PM
OK, I'm going to forward this lilnk to my FFL and get his input.

Thanks guys!

PTK
December 5, 2008, 02:20 PM
If you look, that section of law is for NFA items - NOT Title I. Each law requires marking by a different manufacturer, so in this case BOTH manufacturers must have the item marked. :)

MeekAndMild
December 5, 2008, 08:57 PM
I'm a little bit confused here. You are talking about a semiautomatic carbine aren't you and not a Thompson submachine gun? :confused:

saboteur
December 6, 2008, 12:15 AM
Yes...the semi-automatic carbine version.

Can anyone tell me which barrel length I put on the form 1? The barrel length it is now? Or the barrel length I plan on making it?

PTK
December 6, 2008, 01:05 AM
The barrel length you plan on making it.