45/70 and big bears.

[The Terminator]

I think that we all agree, the 45/70 will kill any animal in North America. In Georgia, for sure. But, has anyone ever depended on one for grizzlies, or polar bears, or kodiak bears, as a defense or for hunting?

If in the situation, would you feel that you had enough gun? Is it really used that much in Alaska? How much of its name is marketing technique, and how much is function? I can only speculate, I'd like to hear from those in the know. - Best

[MeekAndMild]

I gave this a lot of speculation myself when I was planning my spring (black) bear hunt last year. In the end I didn't take my Marlin 1895 because it's just too much gun for blackies, has problems with trajectory over 250 yards and I couldn't maintain acceptable offhand shooting accuracy due to its recoil profile. (It kicks like being hit by Fred Sanford's 2x4 that he keeps behind the door soaking in a can of motor oil.) From what I've read it might have difficulties in the immediate lethality department if a person was not able to hit a big animal in exactly the right spot. But it would be probably pretty good for close range defense if a person was fishing in bear country. All this, except my exerience trying to overcome the trajectory and recoil problems, is speculation...sorry. :o

You might want to send a PM to Wildalaska, one of the forum members who manages a gun store in Alaska and who sells a lot of guns to bear hunters. He asserts a number of years experience listening to gun complaints from real bear hunters, knowing which guns they complain the least about.

[Buzzcook]

The .45-70 will kill big bears.
If you're concerned about the charging grizzly that seems to magically appear at twenty yards on this board, then you might consider a 12 gauge slug gun.

[kraigwy]

The 45-70 would be fine for bears. You can dern near load them to 458 Win specs in the right rifle, but thats not really necessary.

Figure it out, the 338 win mag, its quite popular for big bears in Alaska, the 300 grn 45-70 in a marlin shoot it about as fast.

Dont know if I'd complain much about the trejectory, lots of buffalo were killed with them at 1000 yards or such.

I spent 22 years in alaska, in bear country I carried a 375 H&H, but the only bear I killed was with a 7mm Rem Mag.

[roklok]

I would take a 45-70 with good loads before any 12 guage slug. I am not sure what the fascination with slugs for bear is, but I am not aware of any slug that will penetrate like a good rifle bullet. The Alaska Wildlife Troopers are given rifles (usually .338s but my buddy was given a .350 Rem Mag)for solving bear issues instead of using the department issued 870 12 guage. The Troopers use Brenneke slugs (one of the best penetrating slugs) in their 870s but have found that rifles work better.

[roklok]

To answer another question, the 45-70 is fairly popular up here. I see a lot of them and I have one but have not killed a grizzly with it, my favorite bear rifle is the .35 Whelen. I believe that most grizzlies killed up here are killed with calibers that a lot of out of state hunters would consider inadequate. The 30-30, 308, 270, 30-06 are used extensively by many native and rural dwelling Alaskans to kill scores of bears. I personally know of more than one grizzly done in with .223, as well as 7.62 x 39. Standard calibers far outnumber magnums in Bush Alaska. I handload for my 45-70 and am getting 2100 FPS with 400 grain bullet. I am sure that when I get the chance to shoot a bear with this rifle it will do the job easily.

[zahnzieh]

Love that caliber, recoil not that bad. Use it in my Pedersoli Sharps!

[stevelyn]

All the bears I've killed has been with 12 ga Brenneke slugs and one with a .375.

The Brennekes have been complete pass throughs. I suspect that a 405+ gr from a .45-70 would whistle right through with less effort than the Brennekes.

The .45-70 and its Marlin based magnum derivitives are becoming more popular here.

WA can probably tell you how many .457 WWGs are going out the door.

[Shooting-Star]

Agree with Kraig above - the 338 win mag is used alot in Alaska but your 45-70 would be fine as well.

[wyobohunter]

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325752&highlight=kodiak+island"

A Kodiak Island Bear/Deer hunt report. The weapon was a Marlin Guide Gun (45-70). I personally know several people who choose this same rifle as a packin around in bear country gun. Just make sure you roll your own or buy the Garrett/Cor-Bon/Buffalo Bore ammo, the other factory stuff is made for the old trap door rifles (weak).

[Wildalaska]

WA can probably tell you how many .457 WWGs are going out the door.

For Alaskans...probably 1000 plus.

WildextremelypopularAlaska TM

[wyobohunter]

guess terminator has already seen that link, considering he replied to it:rolleyes:

[Swampghost]

The 45-70 was the darling of the buffalo hunters, about the same size as a large bear. I've seen films where they just dropped where they were standing.

My experience is limited to an 1873 Trapdoor, the vernier sight goes to 1200 yds. I've shot it at 1K. Other than being able to take a nap between pulling the trigger and the bullet arriving on target it's pretty impressive.

An ounce is 437.5 gr., OTC cartridges are 405 or 500 gr. In general you're throwing an ounce of lead, that's got to hurt something. The black bear that I shot rolled over and played dead on the spot. I'll swear that the deer was lifted off of it's feet, never did that again.

More info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45-70

[jhgreasemonkey]

I believe that most grizzlies killed up here are killed with calibers that a lot of out of state hunters would consider inadequate. The 30-30, 308, 270, 30-06 are used extensively by many native and rural dwelling Alaskans to kill scores of bears.
Thanks for clarifying that. I have heard that quite a few times from Alaskans. You ask anyone down here and they will tell you that you need at least a .577 t rex or .600 nitro express :D.

[stolivar]

most buffalo hunters used 44-77, .44-90, .50-70, and .50-90.

the 45-70 was not used much by professional hunters till after 1876. This brings us to another bit of legend--that buffalo hunters regularly shot beasts at ranges such as 1,000 yards. That's pure horse-pucky! Target shooters of the era did compete at such enormous ranges but not the bison hunters. They were businessmen, and flinging lead around the countryside wasted it and powder and primers, all of which had to be freighted to them from railheads in mule or ox-drawn wagons. In short, components were expensive. A little research reveals professional hide hunters made their "stands" at more reasonable ranges up to a few hundred yard.


steve:eek:

[elkman06]

This brings us to another bit of legend--that buffalo hunters regularly shot beasts at ranges such as 1,000 yards. That's pure horse-pucky!
+4....
To stay with the time frame, the only recorded and verified re:surveyed long shot of the day was on a Comanche Indian shot in the back at 1069yds by a buff hunter named Billy Dixon at the Battle of Adobe Walls. Definitely impressive w/ blackpowder, however A 7-8in thick man as opposed to a 30in buff chest w/ 1/2in of hide plus hair on him. Totally different situation.
Now before the naysayers remind me that this was also a Louis Lamour book, it was based in fact.
Also, the raid by the Indians was led by none other than my wife's g.g.g grandfather,,Quanah Parker...Last Comanch Indian chief. died in 1911
elkman06

[Wildalaska]

Also, the raid by the Indians was led by none other than my wife's g.g.g grandfather,,Quanah Parker...Last Comanch Indian chief. died in 1911

Your my hero!

WildnativeamericanhistoryisoneofmyhobbiesAlaska TM

[jrothWA]

I can use my Original Contender with rifle stock & 45-70 barrel for Alaskan bear?

Getting a 30/30 barrel for sure for deer, maybe consider rechambering for the 30-40 Karg round uses heavier bullet 220gr.

[Kreyzhorse]

The 45-70 would be fine for bears. You can dern near load them to 458 Win specs in the right rifle, but thats not really necessary.


With a strong rifle (like a Ruger No. 1 for example) you should be able to handle a big bear with no issues. As mentioned, you can hot load it to right around a 458 Win and I doubt a bear will have much to say after that.

[Big Bill]

I think that we all agree, the 45/70 will kill any animal in North America.There are some exotics in Texas, like rhinos - right? I wonder how a 45/70 would do on a rhino?

[Jimbow1965]

Go to Garretts cartridge co.s web site and read of a guy who went to Africa and killed the big 6 with a Marlin 1895 in 45/70. most were killed with one shot with a safety second shot (usual in Africa from what I hear)
I believe, Elephant, hippo, buffalo,lion,......can't remember the rest.
If it will do a hippo I think with the right cartridge and hard cast bullet it will take the big bears. JMHO.
Jimbow.

[Socrates]

There is a difference between kill and stop. Since I know the .475 and .500 JRH, with 420-440 grain bullets will go through 5-6 feet of buffalo, and they work about the same as a .375 H&H, the 45-70, loaded to similar specs is going to do the same.

The problem arises when people try and say the 45-70 is a 'stopper'. It's not. There is a sizeable difference between a 400 and 500 grain bullets on game, just as there is a huge difference between 600 grains and 500 grains.

The main appeal of the 45-70 is the light guns you can carry it in. Likewise, the 458 Win Mag can be had in some lightweight rifles as well. Given the choice, I'd rather be using a soft point designed for dangerous game, weighing 500 grains, then a cast bullet.

[obxned]

In any modern rifle that is as strong as a Marlin, you can load the 45/70 to power levels similar to the early British elephant cartridges. In a 6 1/2 lb rifle, recoil is strong, but when hunting, you won't notice it and you won't shoot that many times. It's the sighting in that will get you!

[Kreyzhorse]

There are some exotics in Texas, like rhinos - right? I wonder how a 45/70 would do on a rhino?


Garrett actually makes a round for elephant, hippo, rhino and cape called Exiter ammo. I'm guessing it will do the job if you do yours.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/500gr.asp

If the price wasn't so steep, I'd buy a box for the No. 1 just to see how it shot.

[Jimbow1965]

"Owing to this ability, the 45-70 provides a degree of lethality not generally found with other calibers, even ones producing much greater power. This is best evidenced by comparisons with the mighty 458 Winchester Magnum. As conventionally loaded with 500-grain expanding bullets, the 458 is notorious for its relatively shallow penetration. Consequently, when really heavy game is hunted, it is quite common for roundnose solids to be used. Unfortunately, roundnose solids tend to be slow to incapacitate big game. By comparison, the 45-70 can be loaded with blunt non-expanding hard-cast bullets that produce much deeper penetration than the 458 with expanding bullets, and cut a much larger wound channel than the 458 with roundnose solids. Also, the speed of incapacitation is much faster with a blunt non-expanding bullet than with any roundnose solid. Simply stated, proper hard-cast bullets effectively split the difference between under-penetrative expanding bullets and the slow to incapacitate roundnose solids.
The only significant limitation of the 45-70 is the 200-yard trajectory. However, within that range, the 45-70 can anchor the heaviest game on the planet with brutal authority. It can shoot lengthwise through the heaviest game animal including buffalo with large caliber blunt bullets, giving the shooter the advantage of not having to pass on bad-angle shots. If the bull of a lifetime is headed straight away from the shooter and the seat of the pants shot is all that is offered, the shooter can take the shot and know that he will reach the vitals. Generally, when proper hard-cast bullets are used, lengthwise shots result in exit wounds. If confronted by a heavy coastal grizzly hell-bent on annihilation, the 45-70 lever-gun will reliably shoot lengthwise through the bear, while providing the quickest action type available, the lever-action, should a rapid follow-up shot be required. This exceptional combination of action speed and impact effect is impossible to beat when the skirmish is close, and the game is dangerous. And as it turns out, the caliber is also capable of outstanding accuracy, on the order of MOA. If I could own only one big game rifle, it would certainly be a 45-70 lever-gun."(This was from Garretts website)
I agree with the above statement. Go to their website and read of the man who went to Africa. GREAT read. Jimbow1965

[JohnKSa]

To stay with the time frame, the only recorded and verified re:surveyed long shot of the day was on a Comanche Indian shot in the back at 1069yds by a buff hunter named Billy Dixon at the Battle of Adobe Walls.While I've read various plausible distances for the range of the shot 1069yards isn't one of them. The number reported in the first edition of Dixon's wife's biography of Dixon was 1200 yards, in the second edition it was inflated to 1538 yards. Supposedly a surveyor measured the range and fixed the distance at 1028 yards, but it's hard to put a lot of credence in the surveyed value since the survey wasn't done until half a century after the fact--I would love to know how the surveyors determined the positions of the two participants.

I've also never read that the indian killed was shot in the back although I'm not sure what difference it would make under the circumstances. I've also never seen it verified that the indian was a Comanche and there were reportedly members of several different tribes involved.

[Socrates]

"Owing to this ability, the 45-70 provides a degree of lethality not generally found with other calibers, even ones producing much greater power. This is best evidenced by comparisons with the mighty 458 Winchester Magnum. As conventionally loaded with 500-grain expanding bullets, the 458 is notorious for its relatively shallow penetration. Consequently, when really heavy game is hunted, it is quite common for roundnose solids to be used. Unfortunately, roundnose solids tend to be slow to incapacitate big game. By comparison, the 45-70 can be loaded with blunt non-expanding hard-cast bullets that produce much deeper penetration than the 458 with expanding bullets, and cut a much larger wound channel than the 458 with roundnose solids. Also, the speed of incapacitation is much faster with a blunt non-expanding bullet than with any roundnose solid. Simply stated, proper hard-cast bullets effectively split the difference between under-penetrative expanding bullets and the slow to incapacitate roundnose solids.
http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

OK: Lets start with his first statement:

458 Win Mag FMJ 500 2,260 47.0 n/a The bullet tumbled, hit the wood floor, and re-entered the paper.

One of Garretts penetrating Hammer heads:
45-70 Garrett Hammer Head 415 1,850 23.0 n/a Mushroomed and straight
Puts it performance wise right here:
480 Ruger LFN 306 1,058 25.0 7.5 (stopped 1/2� past the bone)
or here:
45x2 7/8� Sharps Lead 543 1,412 26.0 16.0
Year tested:2003

Appears when it hits something hard, the bullet mushrooms, and doesn't penetrate any more then another, 'under penetrating' soft point:
500 Nitro Express SP 570 2,150 25.0 n/a Mushroomed and straight
Guess I should really worry that the .500 Nitro Express is going to under penetrate, and not stop stuff::rolleyes:

500 Nitro Express Solid 570 2,150 48.0 n/a Tumbled and undamaged

Now, if we move up in weight, the Hammer Head sort of
works as described:
45-70 Garrett Hammer Head 530 1,550 55.0 n/a Front swaged out and tipped

Wonder if bullet weight, and casting hard enough, so that it doesn't expand, are the real keys?

What this bit information does show is that we do have cast bullets, even in handguns, that depending on weight and bullet design, will penetrate as well as solids in actual big game hunting rifles. That said, the amount of energy that is transfered, and the wound channel are clearly different.

Garrett's argument creates a straw man,
"As conventionally loaded with 500-grain expanding bullets, the 458 is notorious for its relatively shallow penetration. "

NO ONE I know is going to Africa with bad bullets, and loads in the 458 win mag. In fact, seating bullets out a little bit, or using Double Tap, or others, you can get 458 Lott type performance from the 458 Win Mag.

With the new bullet designs, there is no reason to let such garbage affect your choice, or delude you into thinking the 45-70 is really worth more then a 480 Ruger.
Barnes TSX bullets will not fail, and, if pushed too fast, the petals come off, and the shank penetrates like a flat nosed solid:
http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/tsx-bullet/
Barnes also makes a banded solid http://www.barnesbullets.com/images/NewProductsBandedSolids.jpg
that combines the strength of a solid Machined from homogenous copper/zinc alloy with the flat metplat Garrett gives so much credance to.

Finally, GS Custom makes solids that are far stronger then the old 458 bullets, and, when pushed faster, they just expand and penetrate more:
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/FNRange.jpg

On the left in the picture are two 458 bullets that were fired into a steel drum filled with wet sand. Speeds were 2700 fps and 2300 fps from a 460 Weatherby rifle. The middle bullet picked up a layer of steel on the nose from the lid of the drum. The right hand bullet is the final production version of the bullet with the driving bandsoptimised for minimum pressure / maximum speed.
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/FN458.jpg

Also, you can get the very flat shooting, great feeding HV bullet, that acts as a softpoint, until it's moved too fast, and, they the petals break off, and, you have a full caliber,
shank going straight through the target:
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/hvpage5.jpg
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/hvbore.html

Garrett has tried to do something that I really do understand. Wide metplat bullets, do penetrate, and cut a big hole.

Garrett is charging premium ammunition prices, 70-120 dollars for a box of 20, for cast bullet loaded ammunition, and, you can get those same cast bullets for .50-75 cents, and load them yourself.

The only Ammunition he recommends for elephant, rhino, hippo or cape buffalo is 120 dollars a box, and, uses HORNADY's Copper Clad Steel Jackedted Flatnose solid.

Those list for 53.00 for 50. So, you are paying roughly 100 dollars for a box, 20 rounds of 45-70 brass, primers and powder, not to mention it says Garrett on the box.

Conclusion:

Garett's ammunition is very expensive, and, he is charging
premium solid prices, for cast bullet loads. This is not unique. The large caliber pistol rounds are likewise an area
of over-pricing, due to a lack of competition.

The problem with cast bullets vs. monometal solids, or machined bullets are the consistency of the bullets produced. It is possible to cast a bullet, harden it just a little too much, and have the bullet shatter on impact, or break up, when it hits bone.

You don't have this problem with monometal solids.

My guess is you could get a custom run of loads, with real big game bullets, for what garrett is charging for Cast bullets.

His big game bullets have one thing in common with the
Nitro Express rounds: They are absurdly priced.

Phil Shoemaker, one of the more famous Alaskan bear guides just gave up his beloved 458 Win Mag for a .375 Ruger for backup this year.
Why? Free gun, free ammo, and, he maybe getting paid.

Why not get a hold of him, since he's probably scene more bears then most of us will in 200 lifetimes...

[Socrates]

If you could hold on to it, at 82 ft-lbs of recoil, my Ruger Maximum .510 will shoot 525's at 1550 fps, the same as Garett's 45-70 load.:eek:

Also, 600 grain round nose .510 solids are pretty much the standard for extreme stopping rifles. They provide the ability to break down elephant, to be quickly finished, in weird situations. How does Garrett get off making such absurd generalizations?

Also, the MOST important thing about a PH stopper rifle is that it feeds FLAWLESSLY, 100% OF THE TIME.

His bullet designs are NOT as good at feeding as a Barnes round nose solid, or even the rounded flat point, pictured above...

[freakshow10mm]

Socrates, well said and my opinion is the same.

I don't buy the Garrett hype. That's marketing.

[jgcoastie]

Most of the hunters that I know and hunt with on-island use a .300 win mag or .338 win mag. I know a few folks that like the 45/70, but most use a .300 or .338... I actually know more people that use a .30/06 than a 45/70 on Kodiak Browns. I use what I've got; I've got a .30/06 and I'll be using it this spring for my bear hunt. A 45/70 will take them down, no doubt in my mind that it would probably do it better that a .30/06, but a lot of folks don't have a 45/70. However, a lot of people have a .30/06, and it's a lot cheapr to buy a box of 220 gr bullets than it is to buy a completely different gun for just one hunt every four years. (You can only take one Kodiak coastal brown bear per four regulatory years) Most people have some varient of a powerful handgun that they carry when fishing/hiking/etc. anyway, so they'll take it when hunting in case the rifle doesn't get the job done completely. You can bet your bottom dollar that my 10mm goes with me everywhere I go, loaded with 230gr DoubleTap WFNGC Beartooth rounds.

[JohnKSa]

Garrett is charging premium ammunition prices, 70-120 dollars for a box of 20, for cast bullet loaded ammunition, and, you can get those same cast bullets for .50-75 cents, and load them yourself.Kinda sorta yes & no...

He's worked up the loads and verified in which firearms they will operate properly and in which they are safe. It appears that he's done and provided actual pressure measurements. He's also done testing to verify that his bullet alloy is suitable for the hardness he wants without being so hard that they will fracture. Finally, the bullets are Garrett designs, the results of his own penetration and accuracy testing, and I don't believe he sells them or the molds to cast them separately.

So there is some value added over loading your own. Is it worth the added cost? Everyone has to make that decision for himself.

[Socrates]

Well, John, we didn't charge 120 dollars a box for 20 rounds of BRI sabots, that had been through the same sort of testing, and, that by the way, look like the basis for his Hammerhead rounds in the first place.

Looks to me like he priced his stuff to be able to go to Africa every year, we didn't...

[JohnKSa]

Well, John, we didn't charge 120 dollars a box for 20 rounds of BRI sabots, that had been through the same sort of testing, and, that by the way, look like the basis for his Hammerhead rounds in the first place.How long did you stay in in business? ;)

[Socrates]

Vern was in business long enough to sell the patent. I think Winchester has it now, and buries it as a LEO item.:rolleyes:

Those BRI sabots gave better ballistics then anything Garrett sells, penetrated exceptionally well, and, at over an inch long, if they started tumbling they really left a nasty hole.

Initial loads, 500 grains, 45 Caliber, 1900 fps out of a full house shotgun.

http://www.thedealershowroom.com/i/ammo/bri_sabot_ammo_1.jpg
Also made them a bit flatter, and lighter. I liked the .50 Caliber...
Now, does Garett's ammo look like the BRI front, or not?

[mackillan]

I plan on using my Shiloh 45/70 on hogs, free range wood buffalo bison and on black bear. A Grizz is a different matter. I would prefer a magnum repeater with a flatter trajectory

[jamiejaf]

I use a 54 cal hawkin rifle with a 12 guage coach gun with a magnum 00 buck as a follow up. I always drop them with the .54 cal with no problems. A 45/70 is more than sufficient to kill a bear. I get in close and only go for head shots. i hate the sound of them moaning.

[OLNfan]

I own a 45-70 lever action marlin, and I would easily say that this rifle could be used for ANYTHING in N/A. I would use this to hunt any animal from griz,polar,walrus,hippo,elephant. This gun was built for the "larger than life" animals.

[Socrates]

Each to their own. If I was hunting that stuff, I'd pick a .510 Van Horn. .510 Caliber bullet, 600 grains barnes solid or X bullet, at 2150 fps. This is the limit of what I can shoot accurately, and, it flattens elephants, breaks elephant leg bones at close range, and, will shoot up, into the brain when one has you on the ground, and is trying to stomp and tusk you...

[wyobohunter]

What do you hunt? I've heard there is a decent (if that's a good thing) feral hog population in California. We used to see deer on Camp Pendleton.

[Socrates]

I don't, except for the varmits. Should get out with the boys.
Love venison and pig...

[guntotin_fool]

There is a difference between kill and stop. Since I know the .475 and .500 JRH, with 420-440 grain bullets will go through 5-6 feet of buffalo, and they work about the same as a .375 H&H, the 45-70, loaded to similar specs is going to do the same.

The problem arises when people try and say the 45-70 is a 'stopper'. It's not. There is a sizeable difference between a 400 and 500 grain bullets on game, just as there is a huge difference between 600 grains and 500 grains.

The main appeal of the 45-70 is the light guns you can carry it in. Likewise, the 458 Win Mag can be had in some lightweight rifles as well. Given the choice, I'd rather be using a soft point designed for dangerous game, weighing 500 grains, then a cast bullet.
__________________Socrates

Hmmmmm Context is everything. A .45-70 is a perfectly adequate Stopper when loaded to modern levels on the right game. It might not be the best elephant gun, but will stop the game being discussed.

[Socrates]

458Win
one of us

Posted 08 February 2008 22:36 Hide Post
Folks can choose to listen to the "expert' of their choice and are free to use whatever caliber they want.
The 30-06 was the most popular guides rifle for nearly fifty years and worked just fine for the man who could shoot.I have used mine to kill quite a few large Brown bears and still say that anyone who claims it is ineffective has either not used one - or is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship. I still carry one much of the time.
I do use a 458 Win - and have for the past twenty five years - when guiding Brown Bear hunters as my shooting consists in cleaning up messes made by folks who could not competently use the big magnum they were using.

Choose a rifle you can shoot well, choose a good bullet and practice with it.

And for what it is worth "living year around in the bush" does not mean never going any place. I just spent the last two weeks at the SCI and SHOT shows and am currently visiting clients for two weeks before heading back to Alaska.



"The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubt" Bertrand Russell

Phil Shoemaker www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com


You might get a hold of Phil Shoemaker. He's been guiding in Alaska for 25 years.

You can also contact him through accuratereloading.com
His screen name is 458Win

He's a famous Alaska Bear guide, and, his choice is a .458 Winmag.

Rob Leahy, a holstermaker up there, was using a .375 H&H for taking out the trash.

It's too bad Ken(Wildalaska) didn't weigh in on this, since he's in Alaska...You might PM him, since he sells guns in Alaska...

[Art Eatman]

The first I ever read of hard-cast, large-meplat bullets was in articles on hunting as written by Ross Seyfried. Somewhere in the vicinity of 20 to 25 years ago.

He used a .454 Casull on an Australian water buffalo. I think the bullet was around 300 to 330 grains. IIRC, there was full penetration on a cross-body shot. I really don't recall if any second shot was needed beyond possibly a coup de grace.

So, I can see where somebody would use this sort of bullet in a rifle. From comments above, the critical issue seems to be the quality control of the casting.

[Socrates]

Art: Close. It was an asian water buffalo, and, a .475 Linebaugh. He shot it going away, with 1" long chopped down solids. He hit the animal well twice, but, because he couldn't crimp the Trophy Bonded bullets properly, no groves for crimping, the two in the gun jumped crimp, locking his gun up.

He went to just LBT's after that.

He told me on the phone he got off 5 shots, 45 Colt, loaded at 454 levels, 360 grains at 1550 fps, and, it just barely stopped the cape buffalo that was going to kill him..

I've got just about every article he ever wrote, so, If I'm wrong, drop me the G&A issue, and, I'll look it up.

If you look at the Linebaugh penetration tests, when the Garrett Hammerheads expand, they loose about 50% of their penetration ability.

[Swampghost]

A former employer of mine (machine shop) and big game hunter (Africa) had us making solid bullets out of 360 free-cut brass. The crates would arrive a few mos. after he returned so I assumed that they worked OK.

I should also mention that he was a P.E. and rolled his own. I'm not recommending this to anyone, just saying that it is possible with the right know-how.

On the 1K+ shot on the Indian (I'm part Lakota, Blackfeet and Cherokee), the guy was supposedly taunting the Buff hunters. Bad for him and maybe a very lucky shot made by someone else, I know that I've had a few.

[Socrates]

Punch bullets do it right. Crimp grove and texture on the outside to grip the case mouth, IIRC.

Last I heard, it was illegal to make monometal bullets, since they qualified as armour piercing, thanks to some law. The work around is you have to drill the base out, put another substance like lead in, and then sell them. Impala, Rhino, GS etc don't have that problem...

[guntotin_fool]

you brought up phil. It was his daughter who killed a large brown with a 686 and heavy .357's. If that wasn't adequate for the job I don't think Phil would have let her try.

Phil also has used a 1895 Winchester as his back up in various '06 based chamberings so he must feel those are sufficient as well.

Have you ever shot anything with a stoked 45 70? There doesn't seem to be much difference in terminal performance between a well made 400 gr. and a 500 grainer.

Further more I would like to know who deleted my previous post
asking about Mr. Socrates hunting experience? I am tired of deleted posts.

[guntotin_fool]

Monolithic bullets are just fine. Asquare still make bronze monolithic solids and a Barnes x bullet is monolithic copper if you want AP that doesn't look like it the old Hornady tungston core steel jacketed will do a fair job.

[Socrates]

The question was:
I think that we all agree, the 45/70 will kill any animal in North America. In Georgia, for sure. But, has anyone ever depended on one for grizzlies, or polar bears, or kodiak bears, as a defense or for hunting?

If in the situation, would you feel that you had enough gun? Is it really used that much in Alaska? How much of its name is marketing technique, and how much is function? I can only speculate, I'd like to hear from those in the know. - Best

I'm just trying to answer the questions asked. I don't know anyone that uses the 45-70 as a bear hunting or backup gun. I know a few folks that use the .500 JRH, and other pistols, and a few rifles, custom made, for Alaska, for bears, hunting and as carry while fishing.

The only guys I know from the net that actually hunts stuff
in Alaska are Phil Shoemaker, and Rob Leahy, and only from internet posts.

Phil posted:
The 30-06 was the most popular guides rifle for nearly fifty years and worked just fine for the man who could shoot.I have used mine to kill quite a few large Brown bears and still say that anyone who claims it is ineffective has either not used one - or is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship. I still carry one much of the time.
I do use a 458 Win - and have for the past twenty five years - when guiding Brown Bear hunters as my shooting consists in cleaning up messes made by folks who could not competently use the big magnum they were using.

Choose a rifle you can shoot well, choose a good bullet and practice with it.

So, from that, I take it hunting with a 30-06, if you can shoot, is fine for brown bears, and, trying to back someone who can't, he likes the .458Win.

Rob Leahy owns Simply Rugged Leather, in Alaska. His take out the trash gun is a .375 H&H, last time I wrote him.
Since no one here has ACTUALLY used the 45-70 for what the OP asked, I provided information on people that have. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

By the way, Mr. Shoemaker's recommendations are about what the Parks department came up with. IIRC, they suggest first the 458 Win mag, and, if you can't shoot that, a 375 H&H. Next was a 12 gauge with our slugs, IIRC.

[hogdogs]

I think a .450/700 "UBER GOOBER" is more suited fer grizleebars....
Brent