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View Full Version : possible to load 1858 rem w/ shot?


ballist3r
November 6, 2008, 10:09 PM
sorry if this has been asked before, but here's the deal: i'm looking for a pistol to keep in the car, and i've been looking at a taurus judge in 45lc/.410. i like the idea of a .410 revolver for close up defense out of a vehicle. i found a judge for $300, but it would serve no other purpose, and i found a really nice uberti .44, cap/ball, that i would love to have, for half of that. the uberti i would love to have, the judge i could take or leave.

i'm wondering if it would be possible to load the uberti with shot that would have similar ballistics to the .410, for the car?

i know i could load it with shot, but would it be a bad idea? or ruin the bore? or not have the ballistics i'm looking for? what about the gap between cylinder and bore? if there's something else i'm overlooking, i'm all ears.

thanks in advance, i appreciate ya'lls help.

arcticap
November 6, 2008, 11:59 PM
It's possible to safely load a C&B revolver with shot. They're usually referred to as snake loads and the effective range is limited.
Here's the loading instructions for shot loads as listed on a package of Ox-Yolk Wonder Wads:

1. Powder Charge
2. Wonder Wad
3. Shot Charge
4. Another Wonder Wad as an over-shot card

(Fill the chamber with shot just shy of the top)

ballist3r
November 7, 2008, 12:25 AM
so is this the "patch" method i was reading about? there's no way it can be done with a sizable enough shot and be damaging at 5-7 yards? with grease over the load, how long will modern powder last before it absorbs ambient moisture?

Hawg Haggen
November 7, 2008, 04:50 AM
Shot out of a bp revolver is not a self defense load. In fact as much as I love bp revolvers they're not ideal for self defense period. Shot is going to catch the rifling and spin. It will have a donut shaped pattern as soon as it leaves the bore widening out the further it goes.

with grease over the load, how long will modern powder last before it absorbs ambient moisture?


Ambient moisture is a non issue with unburned powder. As long as the grease doesn't come into contact with the powder it'll last longer than you or your kids will.

Raider2000
November 7, 2008, 04:58 AM
I used to keep 1 chamber loaded with lead BB's.

20gr. Volume FFFG Goex.
Cereal box cardboard for OP wad.
20gr. Volume Lead BB's but smaller shot will be denser like #8 or #9 shot.
Wonder Wad over the shot.
Candle wax mealted over the wonderwad to seal the chamber.

(1) First is ofcorse to make sure the chambr is dry.
(2) Pour the measured powder charge into the chamber.
(3) Followed by a Cereal Box card cut to the chamber size, compress the wad against the powder with a pencil erasor or dowel.
(4) Pour in the measured shot charge into the chamber.
(5) Followed by the Wonder Felt wad & compressed by the rammer.
(6) mealt candle wax over the loaded chamber to seal it & help prevent movement.

This load is only effective to about 7 yards max mostly because of the rifling in the barrel causing a slinging effect, but it will do the job on snakes & squirels.

grymster2007
November 7, 2008, 10:44 AM
Here's one guys experience with a BP revolver shot load.

BP revolver shot load (http://rat-hunter.com/stories/2004/kurt-44-black-caliber/)

noelf2
November 7, 2008, 10:51 AM
Use about 15gr fffg; over powder card; shot, but leave enough room to seat a round ball just over half way into the case and crimp that sucker in. Use a little more powder / little less shot if you want. You will get a shot pattern with a bigger hole in the middle. Good for about 15'. Not bad for SD or snakes.

noelf2
November 7, 2008, 02:05 PM
whoops I was thinking making shot cartridges for a conversion cylinder. I imagine you can do just about the same as I wrote in a C&B cylinder (without the crimp of course).

mike6975
November 7, 2008, 09:49 PM
why not stick a cut-down remmi or colt in your car for quick access?heres a few pics for you to look at.

Respectfully,


mike

drdirk
November 7, 2008, 10:24 PM
Another way to do this is get a conversion cylinder and then buy the 45LC snake loads. I have carried this combination many times in the woods here in snake country.

ballist3r
November 8, 2008, 01:32 AM
thanks, that's all good info, and much appreciated. i've had a .45 pennsylvania rifle for about 8yrs, now, and am definitely going to get into percussion pistols soon.

some background: i just moved from the country, and now i live in a bad part of south dallas(used to be nice) and had somebody attempt to carjack me from the driver's side not long ago. i was in an s10 pickup with the tranny in neutral and for some reason instinct told me to cut the wheel to the right and throw it into reverse. i did just that and broke the guys femur and crushed his lung/ribcage. he lived(miracle) and never did a day in jail(because he approached me with a gun, but didn't get a chance to tell me to get out of the truck) gotta love attorneys. thing is, seems like this type of weirdness comes in 3's with me, and i have stayed up nights wondering what if there was an accomplice? or some other variable to be accounted for, since bastards have brothers, and such. if it happens again i would prolly do the same thing, but it would sure be nice to have a little sawed off, or something, to throw a sub-machine gun style burst towards an assailant while i make my escape. that is illegal, thus unfeasable, so the next best thing i could think of was a .410 judge, but i started to think what's the difference between a .44 and a .45? been wantin an 1858, anyway, and over the last week, or so, my gut has been telling me to get armed.

but now i know, and knowing is half the battle, so i'm about 99% i'll pick up the judge first thing tomorrow morning. i ain't lookin to shoot snakes.(one of my best friends is a herpetologist, taught me alot, i've caught and tubed a lot of prairie rattlers, so, i ain't scared of snakes, unless they weigh 180 pounds, had a great grandaddy that used to pick cotton, and are lookin to take from me or mine.

i know it's just a truck, but when you let people take from you, the taking just never stops. i'd rather be feared or hated than thought of as a pushover, you know? remember, i have to live here, money's just too tight right now.

it irritates me that i can't just have a little 3-shot shortbarreledshotgun and brandish it before they can get close enough, like you can in south africa. of course i could, but that would be unlawful. i believe i would rather deter a crime than have to explain myself after having quelled a crime, or live with myself for what i had to do to another human being. my dad killed a poacher once and he still feels like sh#% about it. but the law is the law, and it don't matter much what i think about it. at least the defining of the traveling law happened here, in texas, that's something to be happy about.

thanks again, and ya'll have a good one.

FL-Flinter
November 8, 2008, 06:23 AM
Shot charges are NOT a SD load by any means and you're looking to at least end up loosing everything your own in a law suit if you don't get killed by the perp.

Two things make the difference in a gunfight - How quickly and accurately you can place your rounds into vital areas while under extreme stress and fear; The capability of those accurately placed rounds to create a suitable permanent wound channel for efficient bleed-out and disruption of extremity locomotion.

A SD situation is not anything even remotely close to shooting on a range. You're going in totally cold, confused and disoriented and you have at best 1 to 3 seconds to evaluate the entire 360° spectrum, determine how many threats and exposures there are noting their current location, speed and direction of travel then develop a plan of action or inaction that you think is best fitting of the situation based on the information you have at hand. If the situation dictates taking action, your action must be swift and deliberate - there is however a world of difference between "swift & deliberate" on the range and "swift & deliberate" when one or more SOB's is trying poke holes in your ass too. I knew an LEO year ago who held the timed-shooting championship not only for his department but for the entire state, he'd also won quite a number of civilian timed-shooting matches as well, he was extremely fast & accurate on the range. Unfortunately, after 16 years as an LEO who never had to use his gun at work, he came upon what the thought was a disabled car and as soon as he closed the door on his cruiser, the driver jumped from the suspect car and took-off running away. There was a 3-4 second delay between the time the driver door opened and the passenger door opened. The time was not used wisely and the LEO took three rounds to the chest from a .38 super. Yes, the vest stopped them from penetrating but the blunt-force trauma knocked him down and as he tried to get back behind his car, he pulled his service pistol, same gun that he won all the timed matches with. He recovered to his feet and made his way to the rear of the patrol car, the perp was following and as he came around the left front fender, the timed-shooting champion LEO dumped 16 rounds of 9mm at the perp less than a sedan length away before the perp could draw a bead on him again. With the LEO's gun standing empty, the perp raised his pistol and the LEO went down. Luckily the LEO had tough bones and instead of the perp's bullet going through his neck and taking out the spine, it turned on impact with the lower jawbone and went out the side instead. The LEO almost bled to death, he went through dozens of operations and is still very much deformed.

The perp walked away without so much as a scratch, not a single one of the 16 rounds from the champion shooter's gun touch him with only a few feet between them.

I tell you this not to condemn the LEO because what happened to him is what will happen to 99% of people involved in a SD situation no matter if they're an LEO or a CEO. "Displacement of surroundings and delay of processing". That is the technical terms, in my classes I call "head up your ass syndrome" and the sad part of it is, we all do it, it's human nature and it's also the one thing both the bad-guys and good-guys rely upon to give them the advantage in a particular situation.

I strongly suggest that anyone who considers CCW invest the time and money into receiving the proper training because what you or don't do may save your life in more ways than one. Being aware of your surroundings of paramount importance because if you maintain proper situational awareness, you can more often than not completely avoid ending up in a SD position and it will also help to keep you from making stupid mistakes that may end up costing you far more than you ever thought was possible to lose.

To even consider carrying a C&B or a "Judge" for SD is completely foolish right from the very thought of it. I'm not flaming you, I'm not trying to belittle you, I'm simply trying to get your attention because the choices you make now will likely make the difference between you living or dying at some point in the future. Either of those gun choices, cut-down or not, they are heavy, slow, bulky and enough to put even the most seasoned veteran at an extreme disadvantage in any kind of fight. Before you make a choice on any kind of weapon to carry, the best thing you can do for yourself and your family is to get quality SD training and make sure you learn what they're trying to teach you - if you don't get it all, don't be ashamed, ask to repeat the entire training cycle, most instructors I know will give you a considerable discount on the repeat because any instructor worth his salt will be more concerned about your safety than they are about making money on you the second time around in the same class. No amount of training and simulation can prepare you for an actual SD situation but the more training you have, the better your chances of both physical and economic survival will be.

mykeal
November 8, 2008, 07:08 AM
FL-FLinter speaks the truth. Very wise words to be read carefully and fully understood.

The telling thing about ballist3r's scenario is this:
it would sure be nice to have a little sawed off, or something, to throw a sub-machine gun style burst towards an assailant while i make my escape

That's illegal almost everywhere. The key thing about legal SD is that you have to be under a real threat to use it. You have an obligation to retreat and escape from the situation before using lethal force if the opportunity exists. The fact that you are escaping makes shooting at the BG illegal, and you can bet your next 5 to 10 years the local prosecutor will make that point clear to the jury.

You need training and knowledge of the law to safely and legally use lethal force. I urge you to do as FL-Flinter suggests.

Deadguy
November 8, 2008, 02:10 PM
So get a little sawed-off. It's only a $200 tax stamp. IF it is the best for the situation, then the extra $200 is worth it.

robhof
November 8, 2008, 10:10 PM
I use a stainless Ruger Old Army with a crimson trace grip. Stainless can stand up to prolonged humidity and storage in a car, crimson trace puts a red dot on the perp and no need to aim. I can put all 6 rounds into 2" at 7 yds without bothering to aim, just put the dot where the bullet will go.

madcratebuilder
November 9, 2008, 07:28 AM
The key thing about legal SD is that you have to be under a real threat to use it. You have an obligation to retreat and escape from the situation before using lethal force if the opportunity exists. The fact that you are escaping makes shooting at the BG illegal, and you can bet your next 5 to 10 years the local prosecutor will make that point clear to the jury.

You need training and knowledge of the law to safely and legally use lethal force. I urge you to do as FL-Flinter suggests.

I see so many posts about SD and HD, people just don't seem to understand that using a firearm is not to be taken lightly. I the eyes of the law you may become the bad guy.

Being aware of your surroundings of paramount importance because if you maintain proper situational awareness, you can more often than not completely avoid ending up in a SD position and it will also help to keep you from making stupid mistakes that may end up costing you far more than you ever thought was possible to lose.

Words I try to live by. I have carried for thirty five years. One time I have removed my gun from it's holster, thirty fours years ago. If I had applied the above it would not have happened.