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Delaware_Dan
November 4, 2008, 02:13 PM
I am wondering why people cling to the AR-15 so much? I have shot a handfull and every one of them has malfunctioned at least once during the range trip. They have all been very accurate but for the price people are paying they could have an M1A. They need to be squeaky clean and need expensive ammo most of the time to function reliably so the question is why do people still love this rifle? I cant justify the purchase of a thousand dollar rifle that is not reliable. Am I missing something?

GAR700
November 4, 2008, 02:17 PM
Mine is very reliable and seldom malfunctions. I would say never but it did misfeed one round out of about 100 this weekend. It is also super accurate and at this point I would choose it over my 22-250 for varmint hunting. Hopefully I can get my loads figured out so my 22-250 will shoot sub-MOA but for now my AR-15 is the one.

GAR

Water-Man
November 4, 2008, 02:18 PM
Not everyone loves the AR-15!

bedlamite
November 4, 2008, 02:23 PM
They don't need expensive ammo or be squeaky clean to be reliable. All they need is lots of lube.

MK11
November 4, 2008, 02:25 PM
From what I've read on these boards lately, your chances of a reliable AR out of the box are higher than a reliable M1A out of the box.

shooter_john
November 4, 2008, 02:28 PM
I have owned several and still have a few, zero problems with any of them. On top of that, you could take any two of my AR's and you'd still need some change to equal the price of an M1A, or else I'd have a bunch of M1A's... I haven't had ammo issues (I shoot mostly reloads), reliability issues, or any other problems, and I'm not a cleaning nazi with my guns most of the time. That is why I love my AR's. I have built most of my AR's, so I can't claim one brand over another since I've used parts from all.

SR420
November 4, 2008, 02:29 PM
Water-Man Not everyone loves the AR-15!

+1

And I don't own any M1A's :)

Maximus856
November 4, 2008, 02:33 PM
Because its a versatile well balanced weapon. The round has good all around capabilities, has the capability of being very accurate, high capacity, reliable if cared for, not to mention the military uses it.


If the military uses it, it must be the best right?...Right?! But it is a good all around rifle AND if you think you have to spend a grand or more on a good one ya need to look around a bit more.

-Max.

davlandrum
November 4, 2008, 02:33 PM
They don't need expensive ammo or be squeaky clean to be reliable. All they need is lots of lube.

Amen. The squeaky clean myth, unfortunately, will stick around as all myths do.

Let's see - light, accurate, totally modular, simple enough that anyone can put one together, fun, deadly....

I am surprised everyone doesn't own one!:D

Moloch
November 4, 2008, 02:33 PM
I would say never but it did misfeed one round out of about 100 this weekend.

Thats actually a lot for a serious rifle. :eek:

Bad ammo?

T.A.Sharps
November 4, 2008, 02:34 PM
The U.S. Army is using it as the platform for the M110 Sniper rifle that will be replacing the bolt action. That would be a hard thing for them to accept if it wasn't as reliable as a bolt action. Its not a .223, but it is an AR, actually its an SR-25 modified.

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/3040/m110rifleka8.jpg

azredhawk44
November 4, 2008, 02:35 PM
Dan: You can build an AR for around $600, or buy one assembled around $750 pretty easily.

An M1A will run you around $1300 for an entry level model.

Ammo is more expensive for the M1A. Much as the AR has ammo quality requirements, so does the M1A. It must be between 140 and 175 grains in weight. It must use a certain range of powder burn rates. It must not exceed a certain pressure. The primers must be of a particular hardness.

AR ammo is cheaper, AR construction methods are cheaper, and AR accurizing is cheaper.

The AR, with an A2 configuration for its sights, does not require horizontal canting of your head when taking aim. More comfortable shooting, though at less precision at close range due to the increased distance from bore to sight plane.

About the only thing that the M1A does better is run more reliably. That, and hit harder downrange (mitigated by the existence of the AR-10). And have a closer bore/sight plane distance in traditional configuration.

The AR's a great rifle. I like mine alot, even with its limitations. I get more range time with it than the M14/M1A because it's cheaper to shoot.

Delaware_Dan
November 4, 2008, 02:58 PM
I would have one if I had a good experience with one. I am dead on out to aprox 150 yds. with them it's just every time I shoot one it jams. As far as price goes, if I started a thread asking for a reliable and accurate AR for $750 I would get laughs. I feel like a lot of people have spent a lot of money on rifles that just aint reliable. Maybe my expectations are to high but my $209 Saiga has thousands of rounds through it and it has never had a hiccup. Damn accurate too. Not to trash the AR, it is an accurate and well balanced rifle but reliability is slacking IMHO.

T.A.Sharps
November 4, 2008, 03:04 PM
I used to be a non believer in the AR. But with all the option you have with one, you can go cheap and easy, build it all yourself easily, or get a highly accurized one it is really hard to argue why you shouldn't buy one over any other semi automatic rifle.

If you can afford any other semi auto, you can afford an AR if your concern is only price. If you can't go buy an SKS.

M1As are great, I would love to have one, but I will not be spending $1300 on any toy in the near future, and from what I've seen $1300 is pretty generous.

However i can get a lower and upper a for about $290 for one, and about $350 for the other. $700 is about what you would pay for almost any quality rifle.

Smaug
November 4, 2008, 03:04 PM
I don't have one. I was thinking of buying one as a pre-ban gun, but I finally decided that I'll risk not having one at all.

I shot them extensively in the Army. Our didn't need lots of lube. We shot them dry, except for one drop of CLP on the bolt.

I bet the lots of lube is what causes them to not be reliable. That lube attracts carbon & grit. Then, they get dirty & unreliable.

I bet you just had a bad AR.

or maybe you were limp-shouldering? ;)

rocket12
November 4, 2008, 03:17 PM
it's a great rifle,and long as you run decent ammo in it it does not jam
wolf and silver bear are not decent ammo :barf:

cat9x
November 4, 2008, 03:27 PM
very modular, very accurate, very American

johnwilliamson062
November 4, 2008, 03:29 PM
get a norinco SKS that uses AK mags!!!!

Oh wait, wrong thread.

No one knows why people like the AR-15 outside of it is what the military uses and it is an elite tacticool EBR.

zippy13
November 4, 2008, 03:31 PM
Sadly, I love my AR less since California classified my, previously exempt, Match HBAR as an assault weapon and greatly restricted its use.

shooter_john
November 4, 2008, 03:33 PM
if I started a thread asking for a reliable and accurate AR for $750 I would get laughs.

I'll agree with that statement, you have a good point... I guess I have just been EXTREMELY lucky with my collection of sub-par, out of spec, <$1500 AR's. $750 has been more than enough to put together a good rifle in my experience though.

Delaware_Dan
November 4, 2008, 03:36 PM
Maybe my Saiga has spoiled me

The Gunny
November 4, 2008, 03:53 PM
Yesterday You could have gotten a great AR for $750 A Smith & Wesson a Stag-Arms maybe even a Yankee-Hill. But Today.... If the election goes south?.... Look forward to paying double!

TPAW
November 4, 2008, 04:02 PM
Why do people love the AR-15?

Couldn't say, I don't. I'd rather stay with my Arsenal AK, It never has malfunctioned, accurate enough to hit any man size target with ease at 200 plus yards, cheap Wolf ammo shoots fine.

kraigwy
November 4, 2008, 04:05 PM
Why do I like the AR, let me count the ways.

Along in about 1967 I was a young paratroor, sent to an little out of the way place where people were trying to kill me with AKs. I was given an AR to defend my self as a infantryman in the 101st Abn Div. The lady served me well. It never failed me. Not once, I crawled around rice paddies, mud, rain and sand. The little AR never let me down no matter the conditions. I've heard rumers how its gonna jam, fail me, and those little guys with the AKs were gonna do me in. Never happened. I had a chance to play in captured AKs and SKSs, I wasn't one bit impressed.

During that live fire FTX with pop up - shoot back targets, My competitiors were using AK,s I was using an AR, I'm here. They arnt.

I bit later I joined the Alaska National Guard. The first three years I was the small arms SGT of a Special Forces Company (A-Team). I was tasked with teaching others American small arms as well as AK and other foregin arms. I failed to see the AK any more reliable then the AR and wasn't no where near as accurate.

One year I was running a sniper school and was contacted by a regular army Cpt who requested I take some ammo off his hands so he could show an ammo usage. He dropped off 30K rounds of 5.56. I sent my armor to the unit to pick up 10 M16s and we went to work. We ruined some barrels, and we turned the gas tube blue but none of the guns failed us.

Later, after OCS, I still heard rumers of the failings of the AR. I was running the markarksmanship until and had control of the the rifles and ammo. I desided to do a test. So I issued myself a M16 and kept it seperate location. refusing to clean it. Several thousands of rounds later it still function. I cleaned it only when I turned it in. It didnt fail me.

I also had an SP1 Colt AR, did the same thing with it. It didnt fail me. I've had a few mags that were defective but no ARs. I rebarreled it to a 1-9 twist barrel so it shot heavier bullets better. Gave it to my son, he also isnt having any problems with it.

I got another colt SP1. Shot if for years without problems. In Multi and 3 gun matches. The 1-12 was ok there but I desided to join the AR High Power Band wagon. I got a White Oak Service Rifle Match Upper. Now this is a very tight, match chamber and I'll admit it was picky about my reloads. When I got that worked out, it serves me well out to 1000 yards.

You can count AKs and SKSs at highpower matches on one hand and still have 4 fingers and a thumb left over. I run high power clinics at 100 yards. I never an AK/SKS that was competive with the ARs.

Sorry folks, I have over 40 years experience shooting the AR, gonna be hard put to convince me they arnt reliable. I've heard rumers. But those rumors have never proved out to me in my experiece or that of those I PERSONALLY KNOW, who have extensive trigger time on the AR.

dirksterg30
November 4, 2008, 04:25 PM
I am wondering why people cling to the AR-15 so much? I have shot a handfull and every one of them has malfunctioned at least once during the range trip. They have all been very accurate but for the price people are paying they could have an M1A. They need to be squeaky clean and need expensive ammo most of the time to function reliably so the question is why do people still love this rifle? I cant justify the purchase of a thousand dollar rifle that is not reliable. Am I missing something?

1. My AR-15 has malfunctioned twice in about 1,700 rounds - both times due to a defective cartridge. From what I've seen, reports of AR's malfunctioning are greatly exaggerated. One other thing to consider - the AR-15 isn't made by 1 manufacturer; there are dozens of companies making AR-15 variants. Some do it very well, and some cut corners, which can cause reliability/durability issues. That is not a fault inherent with the AR-15 platform; it is because the manufacturer cuts corners.

2. I bought my AR new (a Rock River midlength flattop) for under $1,000 - show me where I can get a new M1A for that.

3. They do not need to be kept squeaky clean; as another poster said, you just need to keep them lubed.

4. Yes, the ammo is expensive. That's the price I pay for having an accurate, reliable lightweight rifle. That's not just an issue for the AR-15 platform. 7.62x51 ammo is more expensive than 5.56x45 anyway.

In short, I think your post contains a lot of broad generalizations that don't necessarily apply.

davlandrum
November 4, 2008, 04:36 PM
I shot them extensively in the Army. Our didn't need lots of lube. We shot them dry, except for one drop of CLP on the bolt.


Smaug, most people don't clean rifles to arms-room-turn-in perfection either. Lord knows I don't anymore, just basically clean and run more lubrication. More lube is not a bad thing at the range, because I am not doing fire and move drills in the dirt anymore...

Pilot
November 4, 2008, 05:01 PM
They're accurate, reliable, modular with little recoil and just plain fun to shoot. The only thing that may compete with them is a good AK-74 with optics, which is in 5.45x39. More accurate than the 7.62 AK's in my experience.

GAR700
November 4, 2008, 05:03 PM
Moloch,

Maybe I wasn't clear. I have had my AR-15 for 5 months with probably 1500 rounds through it. I shot around 100 rounds THIS WEEKEND and had one jam. Other than that, I have had one other jam with this rifle. I don't consider the rifle unreliable. I shoot everything from CHEAP Remingtons to Federals with Sierra Matchkings and have no problems. It groups well, handles well, and functions almost flawlessly. I would trust my life to it any day. Maybe I just can't afford a rifle that you would consider serious, but this one serves my purposes perfectly.

GAR

B-Maxx
November 4, 2008, 05:05 PM
I wasn't an AR fan until I shot my buddies at the range the other week. Lot's of fun. Very accurate, low recoil, and all the hop-ups you could ever want to customize it.

ckd
November 4, 2008, 05:06 PM
The AR platform allows one to carry more rounds per pound, has little recoil, is light, ergonomic (mostly), accurate beyond 200 yards.

I'm a fan and owner, though I prefer an AK for CQB distances, my wife prefers the AR for the aforementioned reasons, making it a functional famliy long gun.

I agree that a AR is fussier than an AK, but it has a greater accuracy and range of mission specific ammo.

rogertc1
November 4, 2008, 05:25 PM
For me the Ar is a easy gun to build...parts all fit together. The lower reciever can be used for many applications from 50 Beowulf, pistol, M4.(I have these) to 20"BBL, .22, you name it.
No rivets to pound or grinding like the AK!!!

johnwilliamson062
November 4, 2008, 05:28 PM
parts all fit together
can you say accuwedge. They obviously don't always fit. Clunkedy clunk clunk

Alleykat
November 4, 2008, 05:30 PM
Am I missing something?


Apparently, so. My Bushmaster Shorty AR just never fails. I only shoot my reloads through it. I don't do a lot of cleaning. I do lube with Mobil 1. Could be that you're hanging out with folks who don't know any more about ARs than you do! :D

rogertc1
November 4, 2008, 05:33 PM
john,
I said No rivets to pound or grinding like the AK!!!
Ya know what i am talking about?

DIXIEDOG
November 4, 2008, 05:35 PM
1) Comfortable pistol grip
2) Accurate
3) Cheap to reload for
4) Reliable
5) Modular, buy your parts from multiple manufacturers and they will interchange
6) Striking good looks:D
7) The double in value anytime a Democrat gets in office:)

TPAW
November 4, 2008, 05:50 PM
kraigwy writes:

Sorry folks, I have over 40 years experience shooting the AR, gonna be hard put to convince me they arnt reliable. I've heard rumers. But those rumors have never proved out to me in my experiece or that of those I PERSONALLY KNOW, who have extensive trigger time on the AR.

I served across the pond with the 4th Inf. Div. and chewed a lot of dirt during the TET offensive and throughout my year over there. No let up, always in the field. I wish I had the same confidence you had with your M-16, but I, and many guys that I knew did not. I find it hard to believe that in all the time you were there, you, or others, NEVER had a malfunciton with the M-16. The statistics of having no malfunctions are at the level of being bizzare to say the least. Just in one battle alone on Hill 875 in Dak To when we supported the 173rd Airborne, we had enough weapons failure, that it allowed the NVA to break through out peremiter, and we had to fight hand to hand combat using helmets, bayonets, entrenching tools, or anything we could get our hands on as weapons. You and your guys were one lucky bunch to say the least. Buy the way, I was there in 67' and 68'. Served in I Corps and II Corps.

JAYBIRD78
November 4, 2008, 06:07 PM
It's like legos for big kids.

It's evil and black.

Socialists hate them.

Ammo is "inexpensive".

What's not to love? :confused:

Oh yeah.......It's not a Glock.

jakeswensonmt
November 4, 2008, 06:23 PM
Am I missing something?
Very much so.
Accurate, fun, mean looking, runs filthy, and when/if it ever malfunctions I'll find this thread and post again.

Join us! Feel the power of the dark side!

imp
November 4, 2008, 06:29 PM
Is this some random AR bashing thread? I have two, and I have less than $800 in each of them. If I could find a M14 for that price, I'd have one of those also.

Either one of my rifles will shoot the cheapest silver bear or wolf all the way up to the most expensive TAP ammo with no problem. I've never had a failure of any kind. Maybe some AR's are problematic, loose fitting jam-o-matics, but mine aren't.

Dobe
November 4, 2008, 06:35 PM
I shot them in the Army, and I have more than 2 now. I like them, and will get others. They are extremely accurate, and reliable.

davlandrum
November 4, 2008, 06:43 PM
can you say accuwedge.

A little rattle between the upper and lower never hurt anything. I never realized people thought that was bad until I retired and found TFL. Who knew all those Uncle Sam rifles were somehow flawed...:rolleyes:

Jart
November 4, 2008, 06:52 PM
We do people like the AR-15?

For roughly the same reasons our kids like Mr. Potato Head. I don't go into them myself much but I do have two - they're as different as night and day. One weighs around 13 pounds, has a huge stainless bull barrel and the Hubble telescope along with a NM trigger - it thinks it's a long range varmint gun.

The other is a mutant Bushmaster Dissapator that's light, handy and has an aftermarket single stage trigger whose ancestry I forget that I mangaged to hammer in myself. Come to think of it, that one's on a Rock River lower same as the Hubble one is.

They suffer indignities gladly.

Teppo Sensei
November 4, 2008, 07:12 PM
i wish i could build another AR for the price of an AK
i find the .223 ak plenty accurate at 100yds
we dont have a longer range here
i found 40rd mags dont feed well in my AR hk 30rd mags are perfect
my 7.62x39 AKs mags all feed great with no jams chinese&USSR

in vietnam war early on they used bad powder in unchromed bores
and didnt issue cleaning kits

i had a few jams with my beat up issued m16 mostly old beat up mag related

MeekAndMild
November 4, 2008, 07:18 PM
Am I missing something? Maybe forgetting to swab out the gas tube? :)

theshadow
November 4, 2008, 07:22 PM
I like my AR because it's pretty darn accurate and I got it for cheap.

IMO, liking or disliking a particular style of rifle is usually personal preference and/or budget oriented.

The Terminator
November 4, 2008, 08:31 PM
I read every prior post, and never saw the word, fun. They are just plain fun to own and shoot. Low recoil, accurate and handsome looking. I like mine. I've had 3, only have one now, and it takes several hundred rounds of dirty Wolf to even get them to think about a malfunction.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z292/Othalt/SWAR15.jpg

Bartholomew Roberts
November 4, 2008, 08:38 PM
Looking at my shooting log (going back to 2003), here is what I show for ARs:

Bushmaster 16" HBAR: First stoppage logged August 1, 2004 at 4,470 rounds. Problem traced to splayed feed lips on magazine. Over 8,976 rounds, this rifle had 26 stoppages (8 involving no lube on the bolt/crud buildup, remainder caused by bad magazines).

CMMG Midlength: 25 stoppages in first 276 rounds. Problem: MGI Rate Reducing Buffer installed incorrectly (i.e. operator error). 34 stoppages in 858 rounds (25 user error, 6 squibs, 2 bad magazine)

16" MSTN Midlength - 39 short-stokes in first 40 rounds. Removed the aftermarket MGI buffer (7oz - almost 3x the weight of the standard carbine buffer) and replaced with standard carbine buffer. From 40-2,115 rounds the rifle sees 25 stoppages due to XM193PD squib loads before I finally gave away the remainder of that case. From 2,115 to 4,504 rounds, no stoppages (except the kind that comes when the mag empties).

So what do we see as a common denominator in these problems?

Bad mags
Bad ammo
User error in installing aftermarket "reliability enhancements"

I shot them extensively in the Army. Our didn't need lots of lube. We shot them dry, except for one drop of CLP on the bolt.

There are several studies out there including some so old I posted them in the first go around of TFL pre-2002 that show that ARs work better with wet lube - even in sand and grit. While CLP and similar lubes do attract more crud, they also allow the crud to migrate out of critical places so the gun keeps running. You can run an AR dirty and wet; but not dirty and dry.

Heck, you can try it for yourself if you doubt me.

houndmaster
November 4, 2008, 08:57 PM
I have a Colt M4, accurate,fun and has never jammed. I love mine for the the fun factor as well as the uh ah's from people that have only seen one on CNN or in the movies. Best part is that it is still the current weapon of our armed services. All the factors listed makes it great and it looks really cool.

cchardwick
November 4, 2008, 09:06 PM
I bought three M4 AR-15s that weigh about six pounds. Here's why I like them:


They come apart with NO TOOLS!
They are easy to take apart and put back together again. (Some guns that I own are NIGHTMARES to take apart or put together or both.)
They come in full auto mode (FUN!)
Ammo is cheap (kind of high now because of the war, you know, supply and demand).

A silencer just screws right on, no barrel threading required (a silencer makes it a 'gentlemans' rifle. Just ask Maxim!).

I can take it apart and it fits in my backpack and is light and easy to carry.

Reliability: I've heard that some people use grease along the bolt carrier where it touches the upper receiver, and keep the bolt wet with oil to provide excellent reliability. I haven't really shot mine enough but so far I've NEVER had a jam. Keep in mind the first rifles issued in Nam didn't have a chrome chamber or chrome bore. It was the rust in these sections that caused the jams.

There are tons and tons of aftermarket parts. More than likely you'll end up spending more on parts than on the rifle itself! It's like buying a Harley Davidson, even two exactly the same will almost never look the same on the road because of all the aftermarket options. Just go out and buy a Smith and Wesson Military and Police model and you'll find yourself shopping for aftermarket parts for weeks on end! (scopes, tripods, lights, lasers, forward grips, silencers, upgraded triggers and barrels, on and on, etc.. etc..)

.223 ammo was selected by the army because its the minimum caliber that will still pierce armor. It's flat shooting and really light - you can carry a ton of it. Just handle a few boxes of ammo at the store and compare the weight. If you pack a bunch of ammo for an extended excursion in the great wild west you'll be able to carry more .223 to hunt more game than any other caliber (besides 22 LR).
The finish is resistant to the elements: Parkerized steel, chrome chamber and bore, aluminum frame, plastic stock and hand guards. It almost needs no maintenance besides the steel bolt carrier, bolt, chamber, and bore.

The 'assault weapons ban' makes them instantly double or triple in price!

You have an almost unlimited cartridge conversion option. By just changing out the upper, you can convert to all of these calibers:

.20 Practical - Weaver Rifles
22LR - Spikes Tactical
5.45x39 - Smith and Wesson
.223 - Remington- DPMS (there are probably 50 other makers)
5.56mm NATO - Colt, Bushmaster
6.5mm Grendel - Alexander Arms
6.8 Remington SPC - Model 1
7mm TCU - SSK Industries
.300 Whisper - SSK Industries
.338 Lapua - Bohica Arms
.40 S&W - Olympic Arms
10mm - Olympic Arms
.45 ACP - Olympic Arms
.450 Bushmaster
.458 Socom
.499 LWR - LWRC
.50 Beowulf - Alexander Arms
And finally my favorite conversion: 50 BMG! - Bohica Arms

SPUSCG
November 4, 2008, 09:13 PM
i keep hearing about 600-700 dollar ars. what are these mopst i see are 900 plus

cchardwick
November 4, 2008, 09:25 PM
For about $650 I've seen models like the old fashon M16s, long barrel, plastic fixed stock. Most people go for the M4s or other upgraded mods. I paid $1,000 to $1,100 for my M4s ($1,200 out the door).

SPUSCG
November 4, 2008, 09:28 PM
i dont want tacticool, i want a rifle for training in use of platform and competition

cide1
November 4, 2008, 10:07 PM
At the show two weekends ago in Indy, Midwest Gun Exchange was selling DPMS ARs (flat top or handle) for $629, including case, cleaning kit and two 30 round mags. For $50 more one could get A2 sights. That's a heck of a deal, and a very accurate rifle for $629.

4V50 Gary
November 4, 2008, 10:14 PM
The AR is one of the most versatile weapons platform you can find. With one lower, you can have:

1) carbine
2) rifle
3) varminter
4) pistol caliber carbine
5) belt fed firearm
6) 22 LR plinker
7) .50 caliber target gun
8) LMG (with registered lowered)
9) assault rifle (with registered lowered)
10) SMG (with registered lowered)

The AR is the lego-kit of guns. If you played with lego or took autoshop in school, you can build your AR and convert it easily.

support_six
November 4, 2008, 10:23 PM
I own a few because I became familiar with them during my 23 year Army career. I learned to clean and lube them properly, and identify the parts that need maintenance the most. There is no reason to have a malfunctioning AR once you know how the parts work.

As far as price, I purchased

Lauer Lower w/ parts kit for $209
Magpul CTR stock for $134 (complete with buffer tube, spring, buffer)
CMMG 16" upper for $525 (a very good, reliable brand)

Total was $868

I could have spent less for lesser quality parts but I built a quality rifle.

I could have bought a Stag lower w/ parts kit for $150, a collapsible stock for $40, and a Model 1 upper for $450 for a total of $665 and had an acceptable rifle.

johnwilliamson062
November 4, 2008, 11:39 PM
well if you lube it this way...
once you learn how the rifle works...
only have to clean it every few hundred rounds...

I don't want a rifle that is sensitive to what lube I use
I don't want a rifle I can't pull apart and realize exactly how it works then put it back together
I am more of a clean at the end of the season kind of guy.

To benchrest shoot semi-auto, to plink, to shoot CMP, to own as your fifth or sixth rifle, AR 15 is a great choice. I would not recommend it as a first or second.

armedtotheteeth
November 4, 2008, 11:41 PM
better buy an extra, looks like Obama the gun owners anti christ has won. Im buying 5 tommorow. My wife will be rather upset with me.

Tim R
November 5, 2008, 12:16 AM
I grew up on the M-14, shooting for the Navy team at China Lake in the late 80's. I came away thinking only real men shoot 30 cal. I kept that thought and had an M-1 tuned to shoot 308 after 12 years of not shooting. Great looking rifle. It's the one on the left.

I loaded up some 175 SMK's for 600 yards for the east side Washington State Service Rifle Champs and ended up firing 42 of those things in one day. Being old I hurt. I then watched a guy shooting his AR offhand with the butt on top of his shoulder. I knew this wouldn't work with a 30 cal so I got my first match tuned AR. It rocks! I went up a couple of classifications almost over night.

Most of the problems I see on the line with AR's are ammo related. I have had a trigger stop working in my AR but I've also pitched an extractor out of an M-14. The ammo problems I’ve had were trying to use that blasted Federal brass. Once I learned to use Winchester or Lake City brass I have not had any ammo problems.

I still like shooting the wood gun once in awhile but not if I plan on kicking some arse.

RAnb
November 5, 2008, 02:03 AM
I like my AR-15. It is fun to shoot, accurate, easy to accessorize, decent silencer platform. I have several different uppers for it, 22 cal, 30 cal, 458 cal, all suppressed. It will accept any cartridge that is less than or equal to 2.26" long and a rim diameter no larger than .473". It has malfunctioned twice, both times due to my faulty reloads.

The down sides are it is dirty after a few rounds, spits crap into my face (I shoot lefty) when suppressed and is a bitch to clean. I like it better than my M1A, SKS, WASR-10.

Ranb

nemoaz
November 5, 2008, 03:39 AM
I am wondering why people cling to the AR-15 so much? I have shot a handfull and every one of them has malfunctioned at least once during the range trip. ... Am I missing something?

Yeah, probably. I carry an M4 everyday. Used to carry an M16A2 and before that an M16A1. I also have a civvy AR. I've shot an AR close to a 1000 rounds in a short period of time. I've gone days without shooting it (training). I've carried it in 120 degrees with blowing talc sand. I've carried in near artic environments for months at a time. I've carried it in a marine environment for months at a time. And I haven't had a jam since 88 or so when I was using a training rifle (said XM16 on it).

I guess if I tried, I could make the gun jam every trip to the range if I kept it dry and shot it a lot without cleaning it. Even a dirty AR will keep running if you take a couple of seconds to lube it (I mean a couple of drops on the locking lugs and maybe some down the holes in the bolt carrier to get to the rings).

Anyway, I don't think I cling to it. I'm sure I could carry any number of rifles. The AR is compact and lightweight. If you've ever had to exit a vehicle rapidly under fire or threat, then you would understand why no troops want to carry an M14/M24 in mobile operations. House to house fighting, same deal, trying to negotiate obstacles holding an M14. In either scenario, you are at a SIGNIFICANT disadvantagem, which could equal death quite often. The AR hits hard for a carbine. A 5.56 (or 5.45 AK74) causes almost complete damage (sort of liquifies or scrambles everything) to half of the chest or half the abdomen if the range is 150 yards or less. Every AR I've shot is pretty accurate, usually more accurate than I am without optics.

The truth is I probably "cling" to the AR because it's what I know and it works well. WWII types cling to the M1 and Korean vets cling to the M14 for the same reason, I suspect.

Ignition Override
November 5, 2008, 03:47 AM
Tim R.:
A guy I've worked with several times is on the Navy Rifle Team now.
His name is Mike # and he really knows his guns.


Obama-nation said it: "..they cling to their guns (AR-15s?) and bibles".
What unwashed frontier pioneers, he probably meant.

Nakanokalronin
November 5, 2008, 04:56 AM
Its the 1911 of the rifle world in these ways: Its American. It could have its problems but if taken care of it will be 100% reliable. You can mod it in lots of ways. Not everyone likes them but those who do perfer it over most other designs.You can try to stray away from it but you'll always come back. Everyone should at least have one. Its easier to work on than people might think.Its made by many manufactures.

Other things like easy upper swap to change configuration and/or caliber.Its considered America's rifle.Obama, Brady and gun grabbers everywhere don't want you to own one.;) Theres more but I need to get to bed.

rogertc1
November 5, 2008, 06:16 AM
nemo...DPMS makes a south paw AR15 upper

Delaware_Dan
November 5, 2008, 11:41 AM
Wow you guys really stck up for these guns, and for some of you rightfully so(kraigwy). I own a $209 rifle that will hit a silhouette at 200yds dirty and dry all day. Maybe the ALL of the ARs I've shot were junk, (Colt, Bushmaster, S & W) but they all failed with factory ammo.

Maybe their owners just neglected them, who knows. What I do know is I can neglect the heck out of my Saiga and it doesnt miss a beat. If I want sub MOA I can buy a Savage bolt action and still not spend $700-800+ including the price of my Saiga.

I'm not here to bash the AR, I enjoy shooting them, they are light and versitile and damn accurate but in MY experience they are not 100% reliable, and for that kind of money I would expect them to be.

For the people who claim they never ever had a malfunction of ANY kind I would like to know what company are you using? Was it a build or factory?

I was looking at RRA a while back, and if I was confident that it would be 100% reliable (with the right care of course) I would have no problem spending the money on one. It's a little late for that, but thats a different story.

jakeswensonmt
November 5, 2008, 11:51 AM
nemo...DPMS makes a south paw AR15 upper
Stag offers everything they make in lefty.

MrAnteater
November 5, 2008, 12:21 PM
I was only luke warm about AR15's. That was before yesterday. Now I will likely buy one before they become banned again in the next AWB.

Beretta16
November 5, 2008, 12:23 PM
Maybe their owners just neglected them, who knows. What I do know is I can neglect the heck out of my Saiga and it doesnt miss a beat. If I want sub MOA I can buy a Savage bolt action and still not spend $700-800+ including the price of my Saiga.

I'm not here to bash the AR, I enjoy shooting them, they are light and versitile and damn accurate but in MY experience they are not 100% reliable, and for that kind of money I would expect them to be.

With an AR you can have the accuracy of that Savage (likely much better), the reliability of an ak47 (look at the number of people in this thread who have problems with their guns, virutally none), and more versatility than almost any other gun on the market. I would honestly be surprised if your Saiga could shoot a foot MOA at 200 yards, whereas many AR's shoot sub MOA at that range.

It may not be your cup of tea, but for millions it has served them well.

This is from an unbiased standpoint. I own neither an AK nor an AR, and have shot both fairly extensively.

SR420
November 5, 2008, 02:19 PM
I prefer the AK47 reliability and the sub MOA 7.62 x 51 accuracy
that my CRAZY HORSE® US NAVY MK14 SEI MOD 0 delivers... :cool:

http://www.athenswater.com/images/MK14_SEI_Mod-0-.jpg

Delaware_Dan
November 5, 2008, 03:24 PM
I would honestly be surprised if your Saiga could shoot a foot MOA at 200 yards, whereas many AR's shoot sub MOA at that range.



Those ARs are well over $750, and my saiga does just fine at that range.

steve_of_AR
November 5, 2008, 05:56 PM
I like that AR's have so little recoil that the shooter can keep the sight picture and pop off multiple accurate shots in a row, while keeping eye on target. The straight line geometry from barrel to top of butt helps in that regard. Not sure if that's as practical on any AK variant, I doubt it.

Also, for myself I only like very accurate rifles. If a rifle's not accurate it frustrates me and it goes down the road, life's too short to wonder why I'm missing all the time. If I were realistically going to be attacked by a horde of zombies for days on end then an AK may be worth considering but knock on wood I don't see it happening.

Chui
November 6, 2008, 10:34 AM
As an engineer I have more than a few reservations about the AR; enough that I do not profess to "love" it.

But it is "our" rifle and I guess we should support it. I'd like to see something with AK/HK durability and reliability, however. The 6.8 SPC cartridge would also be nice. But since I'm not able to snap my finger and "let it be so" we have what we have. And like 1911s they can be modified to improve just about anything assuming you choose and assemble carefully. Oh, and they DO work. Just know their limitations and stay within them and I question whether you can find an easier carbine to fight with.

RockyMtnTactical
November 6, 2008, 03:28 PM
Excellent design, very ergonomic, battle proven, modular, reliable, fun to shoot and work on, very accurate, accessories, mags and ammo galore, and it is the weapon used by our very own US military. Every red blooded American should get one. I could go on, but I think you get the point...

darkgael
November 6, 2008, 06:13 PM
As noted: "Its American."

+1 about that.

Pete

MeekAndMild
November 6, 2008, 08:54 PM
Maybe their owners just neglected them, who knows. Like I said, the gas tube, the one thing people seem to forget to clean. After X number of rounds it gets dirty.

Shane Tuttle
November 6, 2008, 10:03 PM
kraigwy writes:

Sorry folks, I have over 40 years experience shooting the AR, gonna be hard put to convince me they arnt reliable. I've heard rumers. But those rumors have never proved out to me in my experiece or that of those I PERSONALLY KNOW, who have extensive trigger time on the AR.

I served across the pond with the 4th Inf. Div. and chewed a lot of dirt during the TET offensive and throughout my year over there. No let up, always in the field. I wish I had the same confidence you had with your M-16, but I, and many guys that I knew did not. I find it hard to believe that in all the time you were there, you, or others, NEVER had a malfunciton with the M-16. The statistics of having no malfunctions are at the level of being bizzare to say the least. Just in one battle alone on Hill 875 in Dak To when we supported the 173rd Airborne, we had enough weapons failure, that it allowed the NVA to break through out peremiter, and we had to fight hand to hand combat using helmets, bayonets, entrenching tools, or anything we could get our hands on as weapons. You and your guys were one lucky bunch to say the least. Buy the way, I was there in 67' and 68'. Served in I Corps and II Corps.

TPAW,

my father's comments basically reflected your thoughts. He served two tours in Vietnam, 82nd Airborne 9th Infantry and lost quite a few fellow servivemen due to the M16's poor reliability. He had close friends that he served with that always came over to our house on Friday nights. I was in my teens when they finally let me in on their conversations. They didn't talk very much about what happened over there. But, when I asked about the rumors of the M16, they all had the same opinion.

1. All the accuracy in the world isn't worth a bucket of %@^& if the rifle doesn't fire. Their M16s failed them more than once.

2. All they wanted was a 1911, M60, and M14(IIRC) in their platoon. Nothing else is needed.

To this day, I've carried the opinion of M16s and their variants along the same lines as the ones I know used them while serving. I will admit up front that my opinions are influenced by what theirs were.

I'm sure the AR15 isn't the same as the old school M16 used back in 1967. But, I don't have much interest in owning one regardless. I bet they're fine guns, though.

colddeadhands
November 6, 2008, 10:55 PM
I do know there are problems with some ar15/m16 (had a few myself in the army) I will sight an argument I had at a local gun store that tryed telling me his $600 no name ar was the same thing as my "parts gun" as he put it, sun devil billet gen 3 lower and upper, colt bolt and barrel, and bushmaster piston conversion. long of the short you spend the write money in an ar it wont let you down and besides if the $h!t ever hits the fan 223's are one of the most plentiful rounds in the states.

darkgael
November 7, 2008, 05:12 AM
I'm wondering how our troops are finding the M-16's reliability during their current deployments. Forty years ago, the rifle acquired a bad reputation and cost lives. (I have read that much of that had to do with the Gov't ignoring Stoner's recommendation for the type of propellant used in the ammo.)
A number of posts in this thread from men who have served since that time or are serving now lead me to believe that the platform is much different nowadays.
Mine has always worked but I've never used it in combat.
Pete

spyderdude
November 7, 2008, 07:35 AM
Having been a big fan of the Kalashnikov rifle, I avoided getting an AR type rifle for some time. That is until I realized that Obama was a real threat to the 2nd Amendment and our ability to purchase and acquire military style firearms. I shot a couple Bushmaster M4 clones, and realized that the AR was as every bit reliable as the AK, and tons more accurate too. I went in search of my first black rifle, and eventually came home with a Smith & Wesson M&P15 carbine. Now I can say I enjoy both platforms equally! :)

jakeswensonmt
November 7, 2008, 12:03 PM
I'm sure the AR15 isn't the same as the old school M16 used back in 1967.

It IS pretty much the same thing, tuttle8. While I believe the accounts of the soldiers that fought there without question, the unreliability of Vietnam era M16 was traced back to ammo that contained a type of powder known to be problematic but that the gov't bureaucrats produced anyway. I believe that if those men had contemporary ammo in their 1967 rifles, they'd have been as reliable as they are now. They knew how to keep them clean. (http://www.ep.tc/problems/25/index.html)

Kaizer
November 7, 2008, 01:16 PM
+1 on water-man
and i quote "not everyone loves the ar 15" end quote...
i really don't fancy that weapon. :D

Shane Tuttle
November 8, 2008, 10:55 AM
It IS pretty much the same thing, tuttle8. While I believe the accounts of the soldiers that fought there without question, the unreliability of Vietnam era M16 was traced back to ammo that contained a type of powder known to be problematic but that the gov't bureaucrats produced anyway. I believe that if those men had contemporary ammo in their 1967 rifles, they'd have been as reliable as they are now.

I do see what you mean. However, I don't think this was the only problem. Issues with them jamming easily when they were treading through mud, muck, and water was a major complaint.

What I mean by the older era's variants compared to today is I think there were improvements on the design, not a different rifle altogether. Similar to an early '57 Beetle to a late '57. Changes to some components, yet still operated under the same principal.

Make no mistake. I do have a bias against them. But I'm sure the ARs of today are a great platform and a proven rifle.

SR420
November 8, 2008, 11:55 AM
On the other hand... I just picked up a real nice AR this morning :eek:


I still don't own an M1A though, just a bunch of M14s.

Old Time Hunter
November 8, 2008, 06:09 PM
+1 on water-man
and i quote "not everyone loves the ar 15" end quote...
i really don't fancy that weapon.

From personal observation and experience, the M14 does a lot better job of smashing heads than the old M16. Just south of the DMZ 1971. The AR's struggle to get through the hard stuff. Clean shots, they do well out to a few hundred yards. Great at laying cover fire, not so great at strategic fire. Still needs more care than the AK's and nor do they clean as well in a dish washer..gotta use funny solvents and such. Other than that....they look like they were designed by Mattel....and now I have to have one! You can thank Osama or what ever his name is, but my real fear is Pelosi.

RockyMtnTactical
November 9, 2008, 04:11 PM
Like I said, the gas tube, the one thing people seem to forget to clean. After X number of rounds it gets dirty.

The gas tube is self cleaning. You don't need to clean it. If you are having problems with your gas tube, just get another one.

Scratch4x4
December 10, 2009, 10:28 PM
I bought a Bushy predator last year, and i found LOTS of reasons to fall in love with it. First of all, there are so many hardware options for it you can customize it to fit your needs for pretty much anything. You dont have to stick with the .223/5.56 if you dont want to. I did, and started reloading my own ammo and am spending a whole of about 23 cents per bullet for target rounds. There is a multitude of ammo options available to, yet again, suit your needs for just about anything. so far, my rifle has given me only 1 or 2 FTF and those were Monarch super cheapos just to see how they handled. For those of you who dislike the gas operation in most ARs, you can always shell out the money and convert it to a gas piston driven system.
Ive added a DPMS AP4 upper assembly, Magpul CTR stock, MOE handguards, and a red dot for the DPMS setup, and i absolutely love it. the possibilities are endless with what you want to do with it. I can go out and shoot a rabbit or prairie dog from 2-400 yards with little effort. Or with the AP4 upper, i can quickly draw down on pigs in the brush. Its light, accurate, well balanced, solidly built, and really easy for anyone to take one and make it their own.


http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/98/l_ca4456dd31934786ab3e2cafa0c1cce9.jpg

dondavis3
December 10, 2009, 11:23 PM
Why do people love the AR-15? :eek:


Here's why :cool:

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx67/dondavis3/Guns/DSC_0136.jpg?t=1260505341


I love shooting this black gun


:)

lowracer
December 11, 2009, 07:58 AM
I love the AR-15 because the mere sight of it causes anti-gunners to wet their pants.

Did you know that despite a strict assault weapons ban, there have been 300,000 AR-15s purchased in California in the last three years with 100,000 more added to that number each year? There's a lot of wet pants in Sacramento...

noyes
December 11, 2009, 08:23 AM
sight of it causes anti-gunners to wet their pants.



pffffffffff

The Uberti 44mag will wet pants ........


http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=54740&stc=1&d=1260548490

johnwilliamson062
December 11, 2009, 09:15 AM
The ergonomics are superb. I don't think there was a long gun with comparably good ergonomics for 30 years after the M16 was introduced. The ones that did come along copy the M16 ergonomics.

joyrock
December 11, 2009, 09:22 AM
I got early this year. The only problems I had out of it was with the 22LR CMMG drop in bolt. But that was an ammo problem, not the bolt it's self. This is what sold me on a AR and not a AK:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0
Thats what got me!

riggins_83
December 11, 2009, 09:44 AM
I have yet to see a jam in my ARs (Bushmaster) shooting mostly Remington UMC 55 grain 223. I've never fired bulk pack ammo or steel cased ammo. I keep the gun relatively wet but not overlubed; When I got the gun it was greased and worked fine, has worked fine with every oil I've used and has been extremely accurate. What's not to love?

olyinaz
December 11, 2009, 10:45 AM
I bought an AR for one and only one reason - to thumb my nose at the anti-gunners. Sure it drew fun memories of my service days but I'd never really desired one until I felt like a pack of Beltway morons were trying to tell me I couldn't or shouldn't have one.

That said, I can't recall mine ever malfunctioning, it's ridiculously accurate for a military style carbine (Saiga my foot...), I only paid $750 for it brand new, the kids love shooting it, it doesn't jump all over the place like my AK-47 and it's a laser beam by comparison, I've started pimping it just for fun...because it IS fun, and I still like the fact that it makes the anti-gunners red with anger to think of me and my sons out on the weekend shooting ARs and AKs!

I like my M1 Garand MUCH more however!! :D

Cheers,
Oly

cubesmoothie
December 11, 2009, 11:44 AM
well, you can get .308, .223, pistol caliber, even crossbow uppers for the same rifle. Thats COOL. I dont want an AR because of price and im not sure what half of the words mean when ppl talk about parts of the gun. AK is nice and simple, idiot proof rifle.

Correction, i DO want an AR, but can't afford one :D

tirod
December 11, 2009, 12:14 PM
YOU CAN AFFORD ONE.

Most of the time it's a cash flow problem. $850 isn't necessarily laying around. So, break down the payments.

1) Research and buy a lower, stripped if necessary. AR's are simple enough to build if you can follow directions and have a few tools. It's not rocket science, other humans put them together too. If you can save $120 dollars, lowers are plentiful and cheap. Just transfer it through an FFL and that will be the last of of it. ALL other parts can drop ship to your door.

2) You don't need the fancy tools to build one, pliers, punches, a small hammer will do. Pay attention to what pins you have assembling the trigger guard, don't break the ears off the lower.

3) You get a choice of what you want in furniture. Fixed stock, shorty, sniper, mix and match as your budget allows. Modular grips, too. Upper handguards are almost too plentiful.

3) You get your choice of caliber. You can add more later. I don't see much advantage in foreign imports limited choice of 1940's ballistics. They are a joke.

4) You get your choice of optics. Buying an A3 upper lets you add the optic of your choice. Not what few are available.

5) You understand the basics of the rifle. You built it, you can diagnose what's up. There are not too many AK-47 factory trained gunsmiths for when it really breaks - and not too many willing to work on them, either. There are great resources on line, and lots of experienced users.

Just remember there are more misconceptions about the AR rifles floating on the internet than experienced users. That's because we've gone from 1 in 10 being a veteran circa 1970 to 1 in 100. Most of the public have no clue or direct military experience with modern AR's. They are quite a bit product improved over the years, and the ammo, too.

You don't keep them immaculately clean, that is a command culture issue not recommended by Ordnance. You do keep them wet. Wet AR's function in the field. Extreme dust is a very localized and current problem in that area - not in the wilds of North American. Get some perspective.

Use good magazines. Bad magazines and government reject ammo (the XM series) cause malfunctions. If you don't use them, you don't create the problem.

I would say the reliability of many third world weapons is directly related to the ability of the designer to make a rifle that defies the lack of training and education of it's primary user. It has to. That doesn't mean it is more accurate, deadlier, easier to use, or better. Just more stupid proof.

Use what you can use reliably.

Tucker 1371
December 11, 2009, 12:39 PM
am wondering why people cling to the AR-15 so much? I have shot a handfull and every one of them has malfunctioned at least once during the range trip. They have all been very accurate but for the price people are paying they could have an M1A. They need to be squeaky clean and need expensive ammo most of the time to function reliably so the question is why do people still love this rifle? I cant justify the purchase of a thousand dollar rifle that is not reliable. Am I missing something?

Well different people have different experiences. The rifles you shot were probably poorly maintained and also, were you shooting factory ammo or reloads? If the latter the reloads could have been a hackjob (which isn't safe by the way.)

In contrast to your story every AR15 I have ever shot has functioned flawlessly, from high end Colts to low end Bushmasters and RRAs and with significant amounts of all types of ammo from Wolf and PMC to Federal and Hornady. The difference is about an hour before I took each of the rifles out I popped the back pins out, tipped the upper and did a quick inspect of the BCG and barrel, each rifle was somewhere between just slightly dirty and spotless. As long as you do weekly cleaning an AR should rarely if ever fail you.

The draws to this system are simple.

1.) It is the closest approximation to what our troops use. This is also part of the reason the Garand and M1A are hugely popular and sought after rifles. Part of the mentality behind this is "if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me".

2.) Accuracy. There are few self loading rifles that can match the accuracy of the M16/AR15 family.

3.) Relative to other non-commie rifles it is cheap to shoot. If you want a piece of good ole' Capitalist engineering that you can afford to take to the range every week the AR15 is about the only way to go, especially with shooting an M1A being somewhere around a dollar a squeeze... 1rd .308 = 3rds .223

Delaware_Dan
December 11, 2009, 01:08 PM
Glad to see my year old thread is up and running again.

Well different people have different experiences.

Thats why I don't own an AR15, and won't be owning any more Taurus firearms.