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View Full Version : Selling your C&R guns to a non-licensee


jrinne0430
October 30, 2008, 04:36 PM
Has anyone done this before? I am wanting to sell some rifle in state (VA) but it seems that the potential buyers do not want to give me the info I need to log into my book (i.e. DL#, address, DOB). Has anyone else run into this problem?

LionHunter
October 30, 2008, 04:43 PM
Why don't they want you to know who they are? I would refuse to sell to them, as is required by law. You are an FFL and must comply with law and regulations. The info only goes into your C&R book and is not sent to ATF.

Chipperman
October 30, 2008, 04:43 PM
If you follow State and Federal law, you are fine. Just put down the info you have in the bound book.

Tom2
October 30, 2008, 04:52 PM
I don't think it applies to anything that you did not buy with the license. I think your personal guns bought from an ffl with a form filled out, or from an individual face to face, is alright to sell like any other personal rifle, depending on your state laws. But your licensed purchased guns gotta have the form filled out by the buyer to the best of my knowledge, so too bad for them, they must not want the guns too badly. You will just keep the records yourself anyway. I was told when I cancelled my C&R to keep my records, I think they officially say 20 years, but I don't have to send them in to the gov't like a regular FFL. That was what I was told to do on a call to the BATFE. I used my license very little anyways. Was a waste of time for me. All I was getting from the distributers was junk rifles buying in the blind. Now I buy at shows so I can cherry pick or pass on the things.

jrinne0430
October 30, 2008, 05:02 PM
Thanks for the responses. I believe that some are concerned with potential ID theft or what ever. Just kind of ticks me off when I inform a buyer that I would need a copy of his ID then I could ship it to him (we are in the same state) and he aggrees, then comes back and wants to do a FTF (no problem, save a bit on shipping) but now does not want to provide me the info. Oh well, like the law says, they must provide the info or they do not get the gun.

LionHunter
October 30, 2008, 07:44 PM
Tom2 is incorrect about selling C&R firearms you may have owned prior to becoming a Licensee. You don't have to put them into your C&R book UNLESS and UNTIL you decide to sell them, at which point you must enter them and then show the disposal. And you do not use your license, you are a Licensee and any C&R firearm that comes into your possession after you are licensed, by any means, MUST be entered into your book.

Hope this helps.

johnwilliamson062
October 30, 2008, 07:45 PM
I believe that once you have a C&R you have to log all C&R purchases, whether FTF,, rom 01 FFL, etc. I just got mine so I don't really know, but that is what I thought.

HKuser
October 30, 2008, 10:00 PM
Any C&R transaction while you hold the license must go in your bound book. Sell a C&R you got before you got the license, still must go in the book. Non-C&R firearms do not.

James K
October 31, 2008, 09:06 PM
An occasional sale is no problem, but if you do many of them BATFE will consider you an unlicensed dealer, since your license is for collecting, not dealing in firearms. You would probably have no problem unless or until a gun you sell is involved in a crime. Then BATFE will trace it to you; your book better be accurate and any further sale had better be strictly in accordance with the law. They also check on people who order dozens of identical guns, especially handguns, on a C&R license.

Jim

JUNGLEBILL
November 1, 2008, 06:24 PM
hey,if you have the 03 ffl,it would be to your best interest to log EVERYTHING that goes thru your hands to log it,,every which way you can,,i do and have been for a FEW YEARS AND I HAVE BEEN CHECKED,,

AzShooter
November 2, 2008, 11:11 PM
If someone refuses to give you their ID something is wrong and I wouldn't sell to them anyway. Better to walk away and be safe.

HKuser
November 3, 2008, 10:25 AM
hey,if you have the 03 ffl,it would be to your best interest to log EVERYTHING that goes thru your hands to log it,,every which way you can,,i do and have been for a FEW YEARS AND I HAVE BEEN CHECKED,,

And so what? That does NOT mean it's required. Only C&R transactions are required to be recorded.

TEDDY
November 8, 2008, 03:19 PM
JIM just told you to log EVERTHING in to the book.you dont want any mistakes many have gone to jail because of a error.you dont want to cross the ATF as they want cases.:rolleyes:;)

HKuser
November 10, 2008, 10:42 PM
Oh well, if JIM says it then we must obey. Many have gone to jail? Name 2 C&R FFL holders that went to jail for not logging C&Rs in their book. What hogwash.

Technosavant
November 11, 2008, 12:47 PM
You don't log everything. The ATF themselves tells you not to log non-C&R firearms.

This isn't all that difficult. The bound book is a log of activity relating to a collection of curio & relic firearms while the license is active. No more, no less. Buy or sell a C&R firearm while licensed? Log it. Buy or sell a non-C&R firearm while licensed? Don't log it.

johnwilliamson062
November 11, 2008, 02:43 PM
I read somewhere that you could transfer C&R purchases to your "personal collection," then you could sell them FTF without logging it as long as you wait at least a year. I always assumed the C&R purchases were already part of my "collection." Unless you were doing something illegal I don't know why you would want to do this, but it seemed interesting that my C&R collection might be separate from my personal and that I could transfer firearms back and forth.

Hkmp5sd
November 11, 2008, 05:23 PM
I read somewhere that you could transfer C&R purchases to your "personal collection," then you could sell them FTF without logging it as long as you wait at least a year.

That is not correct. There is no "personal collection" for a C&R licensee, only C&R guns and non-C&R guns. The "1 year" if for licensed dealers. A dealer may transfer a firearm to his "personal collection" and log it out of his bound book. After being in his "personal collection" for more than one year, the FFL may sell the gun without logging it back into his bound book. If he sells the gun prior to that year, it must go back into his bound book and he must do all of the FFL dealer paperwork/background check stuff.

hey,if you have the 03 ffl,it would be to your best interest to log EVERYTHING that goes thru your hands to log it

Your "bound book" is for C&R firearms only. However, there is nothing preventing you from keeping a similar book for your modern firearm transfers. It is merely not required by law. As for ATF "checking" you, they don't have any say over your modern firearms and you are crazy to allow them access. If you are given an annual inspection by ATF, have the inspection at their office, not your home.

James K
November 11, 2008, 07:49 PM
Hi, guys, confusion somewhere. I think I am the only "Jim" on this thread and I never said anything about logging everything. My comment was limited to C&R items and I feel that selling to a non-FFL holder increases the possibility that the gun may be misused and trouble could result if the sale was not strictly in accordance with the law. When buying/selling non-C&R items or when selling a C&R item to a non-FFL, a C&R license has no meaning at all. You have to follow all the federal and state/local laws the same as a non-licensee.

Now, in practice, I have never known a C&R FFL holder who was subject to an inspection, although I have been told that some have been. There is no regular inspection; apparently an inspection is carried out only if there is the kind of "trouble" I mentioned, like a C&R handgun the C&R licensee sold turning up at the scene of a crime. Then someone is going to want to know who it was sold to and the C&R licensee better have complete records and be in compliance with the law. If he has violated the law, he could not only lose his license, but could conceivably be charged with being an accessory to the crime.

The presumption of a C&R license is that it is issued to a collector whose collecting is done at his home, so BATFE inspections of C&R FFL holders is normally limited to checking the bound book. That can be done at the FFL holder's home with the holder's permission or at the BATFE office. Even if the book is examined at the FFL holder's home, BATFE cannot "inspect" the home as they can a dealer's premises. If they suspect a crime has been committed, they can search the home, but only after they obtain the specific consent of the occupant or a search warrant, the same as for any other home search.

Jim

surg_res
November 11, 2008, 08:18 PM
Am I correct in my understanding that the ATF only regulates (via FFL 03, or whatever) the interstate transfer of firearms, as that is what the federal government has jurisdiction over (Art I, sec 8).

As far as I understand, any transfer of my property to another person in my state is regulated by my state's law, which in TX means valid drivers license and appropriate age, etc.

How the federal government inserted itself into the process of firearms sales for licensed dealers within ones own state, I do not understand--that is why are dealers required to log all sales and call background checks, etc. They probably have the power to require this only by having the authority to jerk your FFL 'priveledge' at any time.

To me, the C&R distinctly separates me from dealers, as a collector. This license simply facilitates the transfer of weapons from one individual to another across state lines, freeing licensed dealers from this burdensome process. Once transfered, those weapons are private property and not under the regulation of the federal government (note I did not say surveillance).

Dealers, tell me if I am way off on my line of understanding here.

Technosavant
November 11, 2008, 09:24 PM
To me, the C&R distinctly separates me from dealers, as a collector. This license simply facilitates the transfer of weapons from one individual to another across state lines, freeing licensed dealers from this burdensome process. Once transfered, those weapons are private property and not under the regulation of the federal government (note I did not say surveillance).


Mostly right, depending on what you mean by "not under the regulation of the federal government." You can transfer it to a non licensee in your state, but you still have to log it (because with the license, you have placed YOURSELF under federal regulation).

Those who have federal licenses (and the C&R most certainly is one) have to follow the federal rules.

johnwilliamson062
November 11, 2008, 09:53 PM
My plan is to have this for the initial period(3 years I believe), then let it lapse. By then I will have the vast majority of C&R guns I want. I am just looking for a way to save on FFL transfer fees. After the three years and my license lapses I just keep the book and forget all the extra regulations, right?

EOD Guy
November 12, 2008, 09:11 AM
My plan is to have this for the initial period(3 years I believe), then let it lapse. By then I will have the vast majority of C&R guns I want. I am just looking for a way to save on FFL transfer fees. After the three years and my license lapses I just keep the book and forget all the extra regulations, right?

You don't have to keep your book, if you don't want to. You would no longer be licensed or required to maintain the book or to send it to the BATF.

You can do with it what you wish.

Arquebus
November 12, 2008, 10:45 AM
Disregard.

Hkmp5sd
November 12, 2008, 04:19 PM
To me, the C&R distinctly separates me from dealers, as a collector. This license simply facilitates the transfer of weapons from one individual to another across state lines, freeing licensed dealers from this burdensome process. Once transfered, those weapons are private property and not under the regulation of the federal government (note I did not say surveillance).


Note that it is the "if the gun ever was transferred across state lines" that the government uses to regulate guns after they are initially sold. For example, it is a federal crime to knowingly sell your firearm to a convicted felon or someone you know is planning on using it in a crime. They also decided after a few years on the market, that Street Sweeper shotgun you bought was suddenly a Destructive Device and had to be registered.


It is the same "commerce clause" that they use to regulate machineguns. In theory, if you manufactured a machinegun from scratch in your home state, if would be exempt from federal regulation. With the exception of a single court decision, the government does not agree with you.