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mav88
October 19, 2008, 03:08 AM
Well..ima newbie to the site..so ima go ahead and inform you guys whats going on in my area and need yall thoughts on this subject.


I go to Cameron University in Oklahoma majoring in law enforcement criminal justice. So in my town, i guess the politicians argued whether or not students who have a CCW, should be allowed to carry a gun on campus, if something would to go wrong. Not long ago, they have banned the idea in the local newspaper.


For me, I would rather feel safer being able to carry a lil snub or even 380 caliber to school concealed, if so something went wrong like a school shooting, because i believe its better to have it than not if something did go wrong on campus. So I believe the banning of guns on campus to students who are actually allowed to carry them is wrong.

Do you guys believe the same?


thnx

44Magnum
October 19, 2008, 04:52 AM
I am an older college student (mid twenties) and also believe CCW on campus is a good idea. My school campus is in the city (read higher crime) and we have had cars broken into and a few forcible sex crimes on campus in the last few years. I'd really feel better being able to carry a little something. I guess I'll just have to rely on my cat-like speed and reflexes...**assumes karate position**... WAAHHHH!! :)

We just had a big televised debate on "CCW on Campus" last month with two nationally known experts (one for and one against). Apparently allowing CCW on campus will completely destroy the "free flow of ideas" and destroy the fabric of our very Democratic government through intimidation. :barf:

It's called CONCEALED Carry for a reason. Nobody knows you are packing... No intimidation involved.

Kreyzhorse
October 19, 2008, 05:31 AM
Banning CCW is stupid and gun free zones don't work.

I'd guess you are aware of this, but I'll post the link if you hadn't heard of it.

http://www.concealedcampus.org/

Dangerwing
October 19, 2008, 05:31 AM
I am also a college student, and I also strongly agree that firearms should be allowed on campuses in accordence with state (and local if applicable) laws. However, having spent a fair amount of time on TFL forums, I can tell you that this thread is bordering very closely on legal/political so just watch your range posts and make sure it doesn't cross the border.

The fact is, if a college student (or anyone else for that mater) is going to commit a crime with a gun on a campus, a rule in the policy handbook that says guns aren't allowed isn't going to stop it from happening. It's another perfect example of Defense Free Crime Zones.

BillCA
October 19, 2008, 06:24 AM
One of the overlooked tidbits of information is the percentage of CCW holders in the population. In most states with shall-issue CCW permits, only about 3% of the whole population have permits.

Now, what's the population of your school? At a rate of 3%, that means a campus with 1,500 students will have a maximum of 45 permit holders. Given student schedules, it's likely that less than 60% (27) would be on campus in any given hour. Thus, some classes will NOT have armed students while others will.

But this figure will be high. The number of college age students who can afford to buy a gun, holster, ammo, pay for the training and CCW fees on top of college expenses will probably be much lower. At 1.5% that's only 13 armed students on campus and at 1% it's 9 students. Given the safety record of most CCW holders, with less than about 15 students armed at any one time, the risk to the "student body" is minimal.

kalstrand
October 19, 2008, 11:47 AM
Mav88, I live in OK as well and its not up to the university if you can carry on campus. State law prohibits carrying a weapon in any school be it primary, secondary, technical or university.

That is if you are talking about carrying it to class. If you simply mean a parking lot then the university may be able to disallow that. I don't have my copy of the self defense act on hand but if I remember right public schools are required to allow you to keep your weapon secured in the parking lot, but universities may be able to disallow firearms on campus totally.

overkill556x45
October 19, 2008, 12:49 PM
I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but my college (with 25,000+ full time students) recently voted to allow POLICE to carry guns on campus, but to continue the ban on CCW.

The argument against both was that it "made students think that things like V-Tech could happen here".

Well, I hate to break it to them, but it CAN happen here. I hope it won't, and odds are that the fiercest opponent the campus cops will face is a drunk with a bad attitude. But they must be prepared (and equipped) for the worst.

These bans come from ignorance and a general fear of weapons. In the case of my college, those behind the ban (as well as student supporters of the ban which also kept on-duty police from carrying guns on campus) supported it not because they thought the guns would be improperly used; but rather that they represented the awful truth that bad things can even happen in Mayberry. They even published a pro-ban argument in the school paper which was solely based on the fact that "guns would remove the feeling that we are safe in class". I'm glad my safety is being decided by someone's emotions.

BillCA
October 20, 2008, 05:22 AM
overkill,

The way to argue against such an emotional diatribe is to point out the fallacy in simple terms.

Those who suggest that armed police would negate the feelings of the student body to feel safe are incapable of living in reality. By their emotion-driven "logic", we should all emulate the 3 Little Pigs and go home to feel safe inside our homes of straw or sticks. Well, we know how well that turned out. Only the porker who planned ahead logically, was able to protect his kinfolk.

So it is with students in many schools around the country. They want that juvenille sensation of feeling safe, even if it is an illusion. Too many of the students, while technically adults, have yet to shuck off their childhood and take responsibility for their own safety. Too many believe it is the university's responsibility to play the adult role and protect them from evil or violence.

What is seriously disappointing for the future of our country is that university students, given possible solutions to a problem, avoid thinking. Instead, they resort to emotional solutions - they want to feel safe, even if they are not. Actual thinking and problem solving requires effort but, it is much easier to just wish-away the evil influences from inside your straw hut.

blume357
October 20, 2008, 06:49 AM
anyone that watched the videos of the VT shooting will realize this.... numerous armed police showed up while the thing was going on and could do nothing not only because the doors were locked but because they had to wait for backup and someone higher up to give them orders.

The reason the authorities at colleges don't want concealed carry is they don't trust their students or citizens, the same with politicians.

mikejonestkd
October 20, 2008, 07:22 AM
My wife and I both work on a college campus where there is no CCW. The local public safety has them though...

I feel that allowing faculty/ staff/ students the opportunity to carry on campus could have a benefit, but, as a whole, college campuses are already one of the safest places that a person can be.

Retention, not printing, and storage when not carrying are three BIG issues that should be carefully considered.

I do not advocate carrying illegally on your campus. If caught, you'll be expelled and arrested.

ADM Knives
October 20, 2008, 07:49 AM
"Sucks" - the only thing going through my mind reading this. I always assumed that if I was back in school, you'd bet I'd be carrying. Also, everytime I hear about something like VT I think "I can't believe more students weren't carrying". But, of course- I wasn't thinking about being expelled and arrested if caught. That would probably change things. So, the only thing I can say is, "that sucks" for both students and staff. Once again, some laws seem like they're written to make it easier for criminals and harder on law abiding citizens.

bclark1
October 20, 2008, 08:08 AM
My old apartment was across the street from the north security office of the school. About a half-dozen muggings on that street this year. Campus security doesn't work. As with a lot of things much of the country misapprehends, it sucks to go down with the ship. I would double-check the law, but in a lot of places you can carry "on" campus in at least some sense, where it's a campus town or where only the buildings are off-limits. Some laws have exclusions as well, such as parking lots or other places that you would necessarily need to utilize even when you would not be carrying to class. You can at least try to minimize your exposure or make your weapon as readily available to you as possible.

Musketeer
October 20, 2008, 09:58 AM
I feel that allowing faculty/ staff/ students the opportunity to carry on campus could have a benefit, but, as a whole, college campuses are already one of the safest places that a person can be.

I see you are in Rochester, NY. SUNY schools at Stony Brook and Old Westbury have plenty of crimes with a sting of rapes not to long ago at SUNY Old Westbury preying on women going about the campus late at night. I would imagine campuses in the more urban areas of northern NY have similar problems when the lights go out.

The whole concept of a campus being the safest place you can be is laughable to some degree. That is like saying a mobile home on a prairie is the safest place you can be, so long as there are no tornadoes. Campuses are safe until something goes wrong at which point they are completely unsafe and undefended. The reason I carry is because I do not know where or when that will be. Although not in college anymore I know that schools are a prime target for the latest trend attention craving wasted flesh, the rampage killer.

I have never understood why some people insist on my and their BEING less safe so they could FEEL more safe. I chalk it up to 50% of the public making decisions more based on emotion than on logic with another 25% letting their reason be clouded by emotion to a lesser degree.

Dangerwing
October 20, 2008, 10:27 AM
Campus security doesn't work.

Amen! Lets take a look at kill-times vs response times. How long would it take a whack-job to walk into a classroom and kill a few dozen people? A minute? Maybe two? Three tops.

How long would it take for campus security OR the local PD to get there and stop the shooter? Well, someone has to have the nerve to take out their cell phone and dial 911 (or the campus security number) while under fire. Granted, someone in another room might recognize the sound of gunfire and make the call without actually being under fire, but that person would instead have to do the "Hey, are those gunshots...? Naw, couldnt be. Oh wait... I hear screaming too!! Holy $#!+, those ARE gunshots!! etc etc". So lets estimate 30 seconds to actually initiate the call. Now the 911 dispatcher answers. What are the odds that the reporting party is going to know the actual address of the building, the best entrance to use, the correct room number, and be able to rattle all this information off to the dispatcher? Finally the call is dispatched to either the campus security or local PD. The average response time for a code 4 (immediate life threat) in the town I live in (which happens to have 3 colleges and 2 tech schools) is about 3-4 minutes. Thats to get to the scene - the right building. Then figure another minute or two to figure out which room etc etc. The whole process will EASILY take 6-8 minutes on a GOOD day. How many people can a whack-job kill in 6-8 minutes. Especially since the clock doesnt start until the first shot is fired.

Fact is, unless your campus puts an armed guard in every room of every floor of every building, or the students/faculty are armed, the only thing that is going to end a VT type shooting (once it has started) is the whack-job running out of ammo or killing himself.

ZeSpectre
October 20, 2008, 10:28 AM
The term for these "feel good" measures is "Security Theater (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_theater)".

mikejonestkd
October 20, 2008, 10:34 AM
I suggest looking at the actual stats:

http://ope.ed.gov/security/GetOneInstitutionData.aspx

Look up your favorite local college and see for yourself.

Edit:

Here's another nice one to look at:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/vvcs02.txt

Highlights:

From 1995 to 2002 violence against college students decreased 54%,
while violence against nonstudents of similar ages fell 45%

On average, from 1995 to 2002, comparing persons ages 18-24 --

* Male college students were twice as likely to be victims of overall
violence than female students (80 versus 43 per 1,000).

* White college students had some-what higher rates of violent victimization
than blacks and higher rates than students of other races (65 versus 52 and 37
per 1,000, respectively).

* For females, nonstudents were over 1.5 times more likely than college
students to be a victim of a violent crime (71 versus 43 per 1,000). For
males, students and nonstudents were equally likely to be the victim of
a violent crime (about 80 per 1,000).

* For both whites and blacks, nonstudents had higher rates of violent
victimization than college students (81 and 83 versus 65 and 52 per
1,000).

* Hispanic college students and nonstudents experience violence at similar
rates.

Characteristics of violent
victimizations of college students:

* 58% were committed by strangers.

* 41% of offenders were perceived to be using alcohol or drugs.

* 93% of crimes occurred off campus, of which 72% occurred at night.


I am not forwarding the notion that colleges are 100% safe 100% of the time but for a person to claim that they are inherently unsafe is not correct.

Don P
October 20, 2008, 12:03 PM
My wife while in college. One of her fellow students stated that she was extremely uncomfortable with a Deputy Sheriff in class in uniform wearing his duty belt with all the goodies. She did not like the fact he was armed while at class. She did not care to the thought of him walking out of class with them at night. My wife looked at as he was a GREAT asset. Sort of like having your own personal body guard.

raimius
October 20, 2008, 04:32 PM
Yes, it is stupid. Banning CCW does not solve problems.

I support the right of any responsible citizen to carry. (By "responsible" I mean a person not convicted of a violent crime or adjudicated a danger to themselves or society.)

Students for Concealed Carry on Campus is trying to get CCW bans lifted. They could always use more help...

mav88
October 20, 2008, 05:20 PM
I have read all the comments so far and i much appreciate yall opinions on the subject. For a minute there, I thought that there might be some luck in my area that they will pass the bill for CCW on campus. Guess i was wrong and didnt turn out the way i wanted. They banned it here because they believe that kids with more guns on campus, whether its legal or not will make it more dangerous, for example "a kid loses it his senior year and gets 3 F's on his transcript so he goes and shoots his teacher" type of stuff. But i do not believe it will make the campus dangerous, just more armed:D for psycho rampage killers.


anyways thnx


also i do NOT carry my firearm on the days that i do go to class, just incase i get caught with it or something in that nature.

44Magnum
October 20, 2008, 06:57 PM
Good. No matter how much you disagree with a law you shouldn't break it. Just remember it the next time you step into the ballot box.

novaDAK
October 20, 2008, 07:33 PM
I'm a college student and I agree. Make sure to check out SCCC (Students for Concealed Carry on Campus). I've also met some great people in the organization at my school.

As for breaking the law, most states it isn't illegal to carry on college campuses, it's simply a school rule, in other words, they can fire you or kick you out, and you lose all the time and money you put into college.

B.N.Real
October 20, 2008, 11:16 PM
I would immediately buy some pepper spray that was of a projectile type.

Some really good stuff.

And try to get those laws changed.

No more Va Techs.

allenomics
October 20, 2008, 11:33 PM
I understand and respect the argument for CCW, but private property rights should prevail.

raimius
October 21, 2008, 10:45 AM
State universities do this too, even with preemption laws...which makes no sense to me, isn't that the kind of thing preemption laws are supposed to prevent?
(Except in Utah, where the Utah Supreme Court ruled the state university system must allow CCW.)

Bud Helms
October 21, 2008, 11:06 AM
novaDAK: "Make sure to check out SCCC (Students for Concealed Carry on Campus). I've also met some great people in the organization at my school."

You forgot to give us a link. ... http://concealedcampus.org/

AutoPistola
October 21, 2008, 10:52 PM
A little off subject, but the campus of UND recently made a rule that students must store their guns at a campus police station. The newspaper said they only had room for exactly 200 guns and are already full!

BillCA
October 23, 2008, 07:21 AM
I understand and respect the argument for CCW, but private property rights should prevail.
But state universities are not private property. They are state lands supported by taxpayer dollars.

AutoPistola - the question that needs to be asked is how many of the 200 (or more) pistols were being carried on campus before the "storage" rule... and how many complaints or violations occurred before the ruling.

Also, my guess is, that if you had a madman sniper on the roof of a college building or tower and students arrived to pick up their weapons, the Campus PD's response would be to deny the students access to their own firearms. It might come under the guise of "we're too busy" or under the claim of preventing "vigilantism". :mad:

mikejonestkd
October 23, 2008, 07:53 AM
Tounge in cheek:

SUNY here in NY is about 28% state supported....so....How do we decide which 28% of the campus facilities allows people to carry? :D

Another thing to consider, at least here in NY. You can't get a permit till you are 21 years old and it takes from 4-8 months to actually get the permit.

That would mean that a traditional college student couldn't even apply till their senior year and there is a great chance that they wouldn't be able to get a permit to carry till after they graduate.

Good discussion gentlemen, there are many factors to consider concerning CCW on campus and some great ones have come from this thread.

ZeSpectre
October 23, 2008, 08:41 AM
That would mean that a traditional college student couldn't even apply till their senior year and there is a great chance that they wouldn't be able to get a permit to carry till after they graduate.

Which ignores
-The large and increasing percentage of "non traditional" students
-Grad students
-and the big group...Faculty, Staff, and Administration.