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Adventurer 2
October 18, 2008, 08:52 AM
It seems like more and more no firearms signs are popping up where I live. I'm thankful nobody has placed a sign on my vehicle. There were three homicides in Kansas City last night. The news woman was standing in front of a sign posted along the side of the street - No Firearms - at the entrance to what looked like apartments (Birch, Kansas). It looks like a street sign. Her opening comment was that the sign wasn't respected as there was a dead body in one of the apartments.
Is a posted street sign - No Firearms - a legally valid sign that has to be followed. I'm not talking about at the airport or the pentagon, It's posted outside of an apartment complex?

Gbro
October 18, 2008, 11:19 AM
Is a posted street sign - No Firearms - a legally valid sign that has to be followed. I'm not talking about at the airport or the pentagon, It's posted outside of an apartment complex?

The link below has much information on Kansas laws. From what I read the sign is there for the licensed gun totters, But read it for yourself. It is very informative web site.


http://www.ksag.org/content/page/id/90

Especially this page,
http://www.ksag.org/files/shared/conceal.carry.FAQ.pdf

buddycraigg
October 18, 2008, 05:32 PM
I live in Kansas City MO.
but I work in KC KS and go to Lawrence KS a lot.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding where the sign is.

if the sign is out by the street or sidewalk, those are public areas, and the apartments don't have any say in the matter.

if the sign was at the entrance of a gated, privately own complex, then you can't go in.

if it isn't gated, i would think it would fall under the same as if a sign was posted on the front of a building, it's still okay for you to be in the parking lot, but you shouldn't go inside.

Adventurer 2
October 18, 2008, 07:10 PM
I only saw the sign on the news - it was posted by the street and looked like any other street sign in a neigborhood. Not a gated community. I had never seen a sign posted outside like that and was just wondering what it really meant to me.

Bud Helms
October 18, 2008, 09:29 PM
The question posed by the op is, "Is a posted street sign - No Firearms - a legally valid sign that has to be followed. I'm not talking about at the airport or the pentagon, It's posted outside of an apartment complex?" ... (in Kansas)

Gbro
October 19, 2008, 07:55 AM
"Is a posted street sign - No Firearms - a legally valid sign that has to be followed.

I struggled with that part of the OP's Q, However I read it as a sign similar to a street sign in that it is shaped and colored such as many street signs are. When first reading post I took it as a sign posting a neighborhood/area.
But it seems more like a sign posted at the entrance to a building.

This is not the place to get a legal opinion, however steering someone to a place that could give them the answer is.

Bud Helms
October 19, 2008, 08:54 AM
Gbro, notice that your post was one of two that survived the "slash and burn" in this topic. That is because you DID answer the question the best you could and I realize that. My comment above was not directed at those posters whose comments remain. Two of you have responded on topic. The rest was noise.

buddycraigg
October 21, 2008, 08:17 PM
one thing, unless i'm misunderstanding the law. in Missouri (and i think Kansas)
it's not illegal for you to go in a place with a sign.
it only becomes a problem if they ask you to leave, you don't and they call the cops.

B.N.Real
October 22, 2008, 09:51 PM
They post those signs for the "listen to the birdy's chirping" people.

That sign makes them feel all important and validated about their choice to be "innocent victims of crime".

Well.

After the criminals get done with them,then WE will have to deal with them because criminals don't listen or read the "birdy's are chirping" signs.

That sign might as well say,

"INVITED! ALL CRIMINALS CARRYING GUNS!"

"WE ARE ALL DISARMED!"

"COME AND ROB US!"

:rolleyes:

paratrooper
October 22, 2008, 10:00 PM
In AZ if you are CCW and enter a place with a sign it's no prob . If they ask you to leave after finding out you are carrying (how would they know ?) you have to go . To refuse is the first crime . I carry EVERYWHERE and never have a problem . As a girl in TX once told me "I would rather get caught with it than without it ."

mikejonestkd
October 23, 2008, 08:17 AM
Paratrooper, You might want to reconsider carrying EVERYWHERE...

I am certain that in a county/state/ fed building, school, university, or a post office they would not simply and politely ask you to leave. You face certain arrest if caught in some places. its not worth it IMO.

hornet41
October 23, 2008, 08:38 AM
In Mississippi the law is very specific about the wording of no gun signs. If the posted signs don't comply with the law I ignore them. The slash through the gun signs are not legal no gun signs in MS.!!!

SPUSCG
October 23, 2008, 01:42 PM
the slash through sighns are funny since theres no wording. "officer, the gun on the sighn is a revolver, i have a semi!"

buddycraigg
October 23, 2008, 04:01 PM
found this
Q: Can a city, county or political subdivision post signs restricting the
concealed carry of firearms by Licensee's?

A: Yes, HOWEVER, again, cities, counties and other political subdivisions may only post their buildings. Parks, parking lots, and other open public property is no longer able to be restricted through signage.

source, http://www.ksag.org/files/shared/conceal.carry.FAQ.pdf

spacemanspiff
October 23, 2008, 04:37 PM
How about the sign that is used to stop people from letting their pets do their business? Ever seen those? Is there legal ramifications if you allow your dog to do its business where the sign asks you not to? How about a No Smoking sign? Ever notice some of these include wording about possible fines against those who don't adhere to it?

Maybe the sign for 'No Firearms' is there because previous signs for 'No Foul Play' or "Muggings Strictly Forbidden on these premises" weren't working?

On a more serious note, maybe the sign is posted as a suggestion by an insurance company who wishes to ward off any potential liability that may arise. Ever notice when you go to a sports arena, theres signs around there that say 'enter at your own risk. flying objects may cause injury'? What happens when someone does get hurt? They file a claim, don't they? The sign doesn't mean much of anything, it only occasionally dissuades someone who is not familiar with liability from possibly filing a claim. The insurance company still is going to follow through.
How about an amusement park? If you injure yourself on a ride, you are going to file a claim, right? But aren't there also signs at amusement parks that attempt to waiver the property owners or business owners liability?
If you slip and fall, hurt yourself on a wet floor that has a big yellow sign that warns of the danger, you are still able to file a claim, correct?

Signs are 'feel-good measures', when there is no legal ramifications for not obeying the suggestions of those signs.

B.N.Real
October 23, 2008, 07:11 PM
I once worked with a guy that was a heroin addict.

To look at this guy ,you would have never known other than his fingernails were gone.

We did work at a Fairfax school secured storage area that had "No drugs Zone " signs posted everywhere in the parking lot.

This 'genius' sets up a drug buy in the parking lot.

Unknown to him,a guy that worked there was listening in on his phone call on his phone and called police.

THEY HANDCUFFED HIM TO ONE OF THE "NO DRUG ZONE" SIGNS AND TOOK HIS PICTURE.

The guy got off without ANY charges at all.

Can you guess why?

buddycraigg
October 23, 2008, 11:25 PM
no

alloy
October 24, 2008, 05:15 AM
because there is no reasonable assumption of probable cause, to listen to his phone in the first place, after he had seen, accepted, and entered a place with a sign? heroin would be illegal regardless so its a little different.

i think i can put up a sign that says "no wristwatches". but unless there is an actual law saying you cant have a wristwatch in a place with a "no wristwatch" sign...all i can do is ask you to leave. and that most likely you are bound to obey. have looked a few times and see no mention of these signs.

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm
i see no results in a search either. http://leg1.state.va.us/000/lst/LS820118.HTM

course thats just my uneducated opinion. a wild guess. a "no shoes no shirt no service" sign, means you can make me leave and/or refuse service. but you cant take me to jail for not having shoes on my feet. i avoid those places until i know the answer regarding gun free zones in Virginia, but i think they just state the owners right to ask you to leave. i dont see how they could try to find out if you had a gun. keep it concealed.

B.N.Real
October 24, 2008, 08:14 PM
Bingo,alloy.

As a private citizen you cannot listen in on someone elses phone call without their permission.

Until after 9/11,even the government had to get permission from a judge to do that.

As a result all the charges were dropped and the guy got off scott free.

tranks
October 24, 2008, 08:52 PM
i think i can put up a sign that says "no wristwatches". but unless there is an actual law saying you cant have a wristwatch in a place with a "no wristwatch" sign...all i can do is ask you to leave. and that most likely you are bound to obey. have looked a few times and see no mention of these signs.

somebody should make up some "wristwatches are banned from theses premises" signs with was small caption underneath that says "this doesn't make much sense either" and post them up next to the gun signs. :p :D

zippy13
October 24, 2008, 10:38 PM
In my area, Southern California, the signs to be taken seriously are of two parts: The restriction, prohibition, or what ever it's called is in large print. Then in small print, typically at the bottom of the sign the there's a reference to the law, code or regulation that provides the authority for the restriction/prohibition and, sometimes, the maximum penalty for violation. Often a contact number for local LE is included.
How does this compare with the signs in your area?

Arabia
October 25, 2008, 01:16 AM
One of the few things I like about CCW in Massachusetts is that we don't have a huge list of restricted areas we carry. We can even open carry throughout most of the state. Though trying that in town might get one is some hot water. Basically the only restricted areas are schools, public transportation centers, government buildings and posted public lands. There are no restrictions on places that sell alcohol etc. Even if a business does post a "no firearms" sign there is no obligation to follow it. All they can do is tell you to leave. Of course there are very few people in the state that do CCW, mostly because there are few gun owners here.

alloy
October 25, 2008, 06:43 AM
i have not seen any of these signs yet, in 8 years. i am kind of in gun country anyway. aside from the obvious post office etc which i know i need to heed. then you got churches, alcohol establishments, school zones etc. from what i read in the paper...we actually have a local officer in trouble for firing twice in a school zone.

was told walmart was gun free, but i cant find a sign. until i know....i dont believe the signs have any legal merit unless there is law backing it up, but i will avoid carrying in those places if i ever see one because i understand any municipality might have the right to make its own laws. my gut feeling is that its no more than a "no shirt no shoes no service" sign and the only trouble would be not leaving if asked. and even a bit less of a restiction, since you couldnt actually see a patron with a gun unless they were letting it show.

but like i said, i cant find mention of it in virginia law.