how close is "too close?" how soon is "too soon?"

[Troy26]

I've been doing some thinking lately and wondered if there's any sort of agreement on how close is "too close?"

what I mean is how close should you let someone (who's behaving agressively) get before you:
1. Draw your firearm
2. Fire your firearm

I could see how drawing it early might prevent a phyiscial confrontation, but I can also see how easily you could get in trouble for "brandishing." Also, I would think the decision to fire your weapon would want to be made to allow for a followup shot if you missed the first time, or the first shot didn't end the threat. I can also see the problem of being labled a trigger happy nut if you shoot too soon.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Check out http://www.useofforce.us/3aojp/

Basically, you have to articulate why in a situation you felt in danger of imminent grievous bodily harm.

(who's behaving agressively) - That's vague, you have to define the threat as above.

Also, drawing and shooting are part and parcel of the same analysis. Faced with a threat (as compared to hearing a noise in the house and retrieveing a gun) - if you draw it is because you face grievous bodily harm. You don't have to shoot the threat but there is no differential where you just draw because you think you don't have to shoot.

As far as distance - there are the knife heuristics of the Tueller drill - but if you saw someone at 50 yards who had a gun out and was saying they are going to shoot you, might you draw then and shoot?

There's no set rule - it's an evaluation - AOJP.

However, no guns out unless it is at any distance a real threat of grievous bodily harm that you cannot reasonably avoid.

[spacemanspiff]

Each situation is as different from the next as snowflakes are different. As is each individual in these situations. What one person would draw down on, another might not.

The rule of thumb has to be what makes you feel your life or health is seriously threatened (depending on the laws of your state, of course). What makes it "justifiable" is whether or not another 'reasonable person' (or most likely, 12 'reasonable people') would agree that you did the right thing.

In other words, there is no easy answer to this question.

[Richiehd]

Remember "I feared for my life"

[Keltyke]

As close as you fear for your life.

Now, the average human can run at 10 mph. That translates into about 15 feet per second. We're supposed to be able to draw and get off a shot in 2 seconds. Let's say we don't practice and can only do it in 3 seconds. If the BG is running all out towards you, and you draw when he's 45 (3 mini-vans) feet away, you will punch him in the belly with the muzzle as you fire.

How close is too close? If he's facing you in a threatening manner and has opportunity, intent, and ability - then draw that gun.

Just something to add:
Draw while retreating. In some states, you MUST retreat, if possible. Take 3-5 quick steps backwards while drawing and aiming. Practice this at the range. It may buy you a valuable second or two.


Drawing is the first resort - pulling the trigger is the last resort.

[44Magnum]

This link may be of assistance to you.

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm

[Japle]

That's a good article, but the rules change depending on where you live. A shooting that's justifiable in Florida would get you 20-to-life in New Jersey.

As a 150 lb 62 year old living in Florida, I feel that anyone who's significantly younger and bigger than I am and who threatens me would be in serious danger. If I were a big, young guy, the threat threshold would be higher.

Not that it matters as much as staying alive.

Bottom line: If you feel threatened with death or serious harm, don't worry about what the law says. Your first priority is to survive the fight. You may spend years in court and your life savings dealing with "the system", but you'll be alive.

[govmule84]

Keltyke,

I must disagree with your statement at the end of our post...or at least half of it. While I do think pulling the trigger of your gun is the LAST option, drawing my gun, anyway, is never, ever the first option. We'll exchange harsh words, or go to fisticuffs, but my gun is not the first thing I think of in a disagreement.

Regards,
Liam

[Alleykat]

but my gun is not the first thing I think of in a disagreement.



Hopefully, we're not talking about a "disagreement" in this thread! :)

[Nnobby45]

Draw too soon, it could be brandishing. Draw to late and you may not survive. Draw just right and you may give Bubba a chance to change his mind and you avoid using deadly force. (yes, I know. In some states just drawing a weapon is deadly force).

I wonder what the chances are of things unfolding in such an orderly fashion, that knowing exactly what to do is real clear.:rolleyes:


You can't ask anybody else how close that is. If you're instincts don't help you out, there won't be anybody else (except Bubba) to do it for you.

I once had a highly qualified LE officer tell me that drawing a weapon when an attack looks imminent, but before it happens is a reasonable way to handle things where saving your life is concerned. I don't know if the system will see it that way, however.

[Nnobby45]

I must disagree with your statement at the end of our post...or at least half of it. While I do think pulling the trigger of your gun is the LAST option, drawing my gun, anyway, is never, ever the first option. We'll exchange harsh words, or go to fisticuffs, but my gun is not the first thing I think of in a disagreement.

Regards,
Liam

Since Bubba determines when and where you'll be violently attacked, drawing your gun may be the first and only option. Hopefully, being alert will prevent that from happening.

It's interesting that scenario you created is one where you're having a disagreement with someone, arguing, exchanging words, and participating in the escalation of hostilities while armed?:cool: Or did I misunderstand?

[revance]

I bet people rarely have an opportunity to draw while the person is "too far away".

If its a random mugging or assault, they likely won't display any aggression until they are right next to you... which is why you shouldn't be self conscious about walking out of your way to leave plenty of distance between you and someone suspicious. No shame in walking to the other side of the road. They are a stranger, who cares if you offend them by passing this kind of judgment. If they go in the same direction in an obvious attempt to still pass closely by you, there is nothing wrong with giving a verbal warning that you don't want them to come any closer to you by saying something like "thats close enough" or "don't come any closer". After that, any movement towards you is an open act of aggression.

I think what is harder than knowing when to draw is to avoid being in a situation where you aren't aware of the aggression until it is too late.

Edit: after rereading my post, I just want to add that what I said about giving a verbal warning is if you have plenty of room between you. If you see someone halfway down the block and decide to cross the street, and they immediately start to cross too while walking towards you, and you turn back and start to go back to the original side (making it obvious you are avoiding passing by them) and they follow... that is kind of the scenario I had in mind.

[BillCA]

In the legal sense, each state has its own set of laws dealing with the use of deadly force and what determines justifiable homicide. Learn the content of your state's laws a.s.a.p.

Prosecutors will evaluate the threat posed by your attacker by asking if he had the following;
Means: Did he have the means to carry out his threat to you? If he said he'd kill you from 50 yards away and had a baseball bat, he did not have the means to act.
Opportunity: Was there the opportunity for the thug to carry out his threat? 50 yards with a gun-yes. Closing to within about 20 ft with the baseball bat-yes.
Motive: His threats, statements and actions will determine motive. His intent can be to assault, rob, injure or murder you.


Also taken into account is the "disparity of force" issue. This means if you are a 6'4" 25 y/o man facing a 5'7" 140 pound man, you'll have to show immediate, grave danger. A 5'2" 110 pound woman facing a 6'2" 220 lb attacker is obviously at a serious disadvantage. Armed vs. unarmed plays here too.

There's no "set distance" you should worry about. Rather you should evaluate very quickly a checklist that looks something like this...

Is the threat credible or just a "bag o' wind"?
Is he making any overt move to carry out his threat?
Is he more likely to prevail in a physical fight than I am?
Am I within striking distance of any weapon(s) he has? (hands included!)
Can he close the gap between us before I can draw?

[dairycreek]

In the legal sense, each state has its own set of laws dealing with the use of deadly force and what determines justifiable homicide. Learn the content of your state's laws a.s.a.p.

This is excellent advice and should be explored for your state. In Oregon I was taught that the criteria to be considered were Means, Intent, and Opportunity - M I O! Does your "attacker" have the Means, the Intent, and the Opportunity to require you to defend yourself? All three have to be present before one can act with deadly force. As simple as they might sound these can be extremely legally tricky. Just pulling out your gun when you feel threatened is likely to get you in trouble.

Inform yourself as to how your state deals with this issue - the sooner the better.

[Keltyke]

We'll exchange harsh words, or go to fisticuffs, but my gun is not the first thing I think of in a disagreement.

The OP wasn't, I think, referring to a "disagreement". He was talking about a life-threatening situation. If I feel afraid for my life, I'm not going to even bother with yelling or fighting, I'll draw immediately.

[heyduke]

Here's an idea...

Learn self defense where one does not need to use a firearm to protect oneself againt another person.

[The Canuck]

Tactical response has a set of requirements.

Ability, Intent and Opportunity. If the threat meets these three criteria it is to be engaged until stopped.

[Nnobby45]

Ability, Intent and Opportunity. If the threat meets these three criteria it is to be engaged until stopped.


Ability, Means, Intent, Opportunity, and actually putting you in Jeapordy are the five criteria in Nevada.

Or: That a reasonable person would have good reason to believe that his/her life was in immediate danger.

Ability, Intent, and Opportunity do not, alone, indicate that the suspect had either the means or that he put you in jeapordy. Not to say that couldn't be the case.

[B.N.Real]

Too close is with ten feet of you.

But that's where most 'disagreements' happen.

If he continues to close on you without stopping,it may be time to pull your handgun.

Just because you pull your handgun DOES NOT mean you have to shoot it,regardless of what soime people like to say.

A criminal faced with a loaded revolver or semi auto drawn by a person suddenly looking confident in their ability to use it,often realizes "Oops,I just XXXXXX up!" and begins to back away or just run his mouth instead of closing on you.

And it is very important that you have a view of what his hands(and everything else that is going on around you and him)are doing while the situation is going on.

The thing to remember here is that if you have an avenue of escape,i.e. if you can leave the area (and call police),you are law bound to do so,if this is not the stopping of an actual LIFE THREATENING crime on someones person.

As distasteful and cowardly as walking away may sound,getting twenty years in jail for shooting someone who is simply being an idiot is just plain stupid.

But if I must walk away,I won't be turning my back to any threat.

[Dresden2001]

You must evaluate the nature of the confrontation and the threat that it poses to you. I have just recovered from Open Heart Surgery and am much less able to defend myself using my bare hands than I was before I had my chest cracked. I would take a dim view of someone getting inside my inner 7 yard line, especially if they were acting suspiciously, or demonstrating hostile intent.

All of my carry pistols have CTC Lasergrips installed. I firmly believe, based on evidence when I was employed in law enforcement, that the application of the red dot on a suspects chest will often deescalate a situation immediately.

That is not to say that you might use a laser sight in an instance where you are not justified in shooting, but I have seen a number of offenders back down when I pointed at them and lit them up with the laser.

If you pull your firearm, you have to be prepared to escalate to killing someone. Regardless of whether you pull the trigger or not, you need to get on the phone to the police anytime you employ your gun as self-protection. Paraphrase these statements to fit your situation, but make sure that you use the appropriate language to describe the encounter.

"I was in fear of my life, I was afraid he intended to rob/rape/assault me and that I would be killed if I did not defend myself. He is Xfeet tall, Xweight, Hair Eyes and Clothing. . and went that way after I prepared to defend myself. The person posed a threat to my personal safety. . . he threatened me. . . he had a club or board in his hands . . . his fists were balled . . . he was tense and angry. . . . he said he would _____________ and I was convinced he would if I had not prepared to defend myself."

If asked by the police if you want to press charges, say yes. Most states have statutes that make menacing or harassment a crime. If you have pulled your gun to protect yourself and the perp is caught, do the next law abiding citizen the perp may run into a favor and get him convicted of threatening you.

So. . .How close is too close before you draw? - it depends on the circumstances but certainly inside that 7 yard threshold, When should you fire? - When you have no other choice but to stop a deadly or potentially deadly attack. . .

[ragwd]

Tueller Drill, I am sure most of you have seen this before, but it impressed me with the need to stay aware and assessing people and situations. Fortunately I have never had to draw mine, but there are times when someone that looks suspicious gets within 21 feet. You can't draw everytime someone does. You may have to defend your self in the process of drawing. Every one and every situation is different so there are no hard rules but the Tueller drill says that if your draw and fire twice takes 1.5 seconds, a attacker can close that 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. wow I have practiced my draw alot but not nearly enough I'm sure. I don't think I can draw and fire inside of 3 seconds (especially with winter carry), so that means I have to see the danger at 42 feet away. So no hard and fast rule for being too close or too soon, I just remember this drill and try to read people.

http://defendyourself101.ca/articles/hidden-lesson-tueller-drill

[Nnobby45]

Tueller Drill, I am sure most of you have seen this before, but it impressed me with the need to stay aware and assessing people and situations. Fortunately I have never had to draw mine, but there are times when someone that looks suspicious gets within 21 feet.

Results of the Tueller drill provide useful information for all of us, and especially for cops whose job it is to approach suspects day in and day out. They know to be alert.

The knife you and I should fear most is one that's in our face in a parking garage, shopping center lot, etc., where the Tueller drill may not mean diddly and being very alert may mean everything.

How many of us simply walk to our car, open the door, and get in? That's when you're most vulnerable. I'm not a criminal, but if I was, that's when I'd get you. I'd follow you to, or ambush you at, your car-- coming from nowhere. You'd turn your back to open your door and you'd be mine. Or maybe when you start to climb in.You wouldn't know what hit you.

Only being many times more alert than the average John/Jane Doe would save you. I might have to find another victim.

How do I know what I'd do? Because that's how real criminals do it. Just watch the news.

How close is too close? When the knife is in your face. Cops approach criminals and know to be alert. Criminals approach us, and we'd better be.

[OldMarksman]

Nnobby45's comment is full of truth:Draw too soon, it could be brandishing. Draw to late and you may not survive. Draw just right and you may give Bubba a chance to change his mind and you avoid using deadly force. (yes, I know. In some states just drawing a weapon is deadly force).

And I really believe that everyone should head all of the following from BillCA:In the legal sense, each state has its own set of laws dealing with the use of deadly force and what determines justifiable homicide. Learn the content of your state's laws a.s.a.p.

Prosecutors will evaluate the threat posed by your attacker by asking if he had the following;
Means: Did he have the means to carry out his threat to you? If he said he'd kill you from 50 yards away and had a baseball bat, he did not have the means to act.
Opportunity: Was there the opportunity for the thug to carry out his threat? 50 yards with a gun-yes. Closing to within about 20 ft with the baseball bat-yes.
Motive: His threats, statements and actions will determine motive. His intent can be to assault, rob, injure or murder you.

Also taken into account is the "disparity of force" issue. This means if you are a 6'4" 25 y/o man facing a 5'7" 140 pound man, you'll have to show immediate, grave danger. A 5'2" 110 pound woman facing a 6'2" 220 lb attacker is obviously at a serious disadvantage. Armed vs. unarmed plays here too.

There's no "set distance" you should worry about. Rather you should evaluate very quickly a checklist that looks something like this...
Is the threat credible or just a "bag o' wind"?
Is he making any overt move to carry out his threat?
Is he more likely to prevail in a physical fight than I am?
Am I within striking distance of any weapon(s) he has? (hands included!)
Can he close the gap between us before I can draw?

Here's something else that you might find worth reading carefully:

http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/01c1e7698280d20385256d0b00789923/f587d7d10c34fff2852572b90069bc3c?OpenDocument&Click=

The items "Seemingly Excessive Force--the Reaction Gap" and "Distance" are directly germane to the thread, but in my opinion the entire article is worth studying.

I hope you find this useful.

[JTMcC]

In response to heyduke, who recomends:

"learn self defense where one does not need to use a firearm to protect oneself against another person".

Right, my 72 year old widowed Mother, with arthritis, all 4 foot 10 and three quarter inches and 100 lbs of fighting fury, should defend herself in hand to hand combat with the crack head (or more likely in my part of the world a meth head) at the door who is 30 years old, 6'-2", 240 lbs and has been pumping iron in the pen for the last 10 years.
Get a grip man, my Mom will in any self defense situation NEED a firearm. She won't overcome a tough, young, fit, strong criminal using her ninja skills. She will have a very good chance of prevailing by being alert and employing her 12 gage or her pistol.

Some people just amaze me.

JTMcC.

I'll add that my wife, tho 5'-10", young and physically fit, still needs the advantage of her 590 or her 586 when I'm off working if the need arises to defend house and hearth, including the 4 and 7 year old girls we have running around.

[Nisei]

I think it isn't about distance as it is physical fitness and knowing your limits.

Asses the situation, it's all about one-upping your opponent. He has bare fists, you use a pocket knife, he has a knife or club, you use a firearm. Don't worry about letting him get too close before you draw, if you feel the need to draw then do so. If the tango doesn't get the hint, down him. No matter what happens, good or bad, you're going to take smack from non-carry citizens and lawyers anyway... just do what you have to in order to stay alive.

[Encounter38]

In my opinion one needs to consider the age & physical agility of the assualted victim. Us older people need to respond to a pending assualt sooner than the young.

Unless memory fails, the victim's belief of how afraid he is of the pending assualt, matters more than almost anything else, A "Reasonable"response for an eldery victim will be different than a "Reasonable" response from a young, agile victim.

[Sportdog]

At the first hint of trouble, I start my mental computer going and my body steps into the "protect" mode. Thoughts that go through my mind are things like "is this threat real or am I just imagining it?", "how am I prepared to respond if the threat turns real?", "is their a way to get out of this situation?", "at what point from the advance will I be able to use my weapon to stop him from doing great damage to me?", "Exactly what will I do at the moment of truth?". What does not go through my mental computer are questions or thoughts like, "How close should I let him get so I can draw down on him so I don't get charged with brandishing?", "What will the prosecutor think about me defending myself?", "Will the jury think that I did the right thing?". There is no doubt that those questions will be in my mind later but if you are preoccupied with the legal ramifications when it's crunch time, you will not have to worry about them later, you most likely won't be worrying at all because you will be dead. It's one thing to sit at a keyboard and dream up all the ins and outs of self-defense, it's quite another when the reality of self preservation is at hand. You snooze......you lose.:(

[relee]

I like to think that a small edge can be had by pocket carry. I can slip my hand into a pocket and onto the grip of my "J" without committing to a draw, yet certainly be ready real fast if needed. All other 'what if's" and "how about's" apply, but you're that far ahead should a draw be required.

[mav88]

Heres an example of something that happened in my local area.


'A women was car jacked by a black male teen while going to her car at a apartment complex. The guy casually walked up to her as if he was to ask for change and pulled a gun out and threatened her that he wanted the car.

she then complied and gave him the car.' police later than caught the guy and he was found guilty.

Its hard to know when to draw your gun on a attacker, especially when they are pros when it comes to playing a game of deceit to harm you. This is a situation which many people have been in, when someone approaches you and your not sure whether to be in fighting mode or not whether its asking you for change or whatever other B.S. these people can ask for. I do not want to seem as a stereotype, but if i see someone who LOOKS like their dangerous and they start trying to ENVADE my bubble (get too close to me,which i might begin to get uncomfortable) im get into a fighting stance and just be prepared, and if they pull a weapon on me i just i hope i can pull mine out quicker :D

[Sportdog]

I understand exactly what you are saying. This incident happened to me, last Thursday. I was sitting in my car waiting to pick my mother up from a Bus Tour that she took to New England. The pickup/dropoff location was a very nice hotel parking lot. The bus was late and the weather warm so my windows were down as I sat waiting. I noticed a gangsta looking guy riding a bicycle around the parking lot and he appeared to be up to no good. When he saw me looking at him he approached my vehicle. When I saw him coming my way I reached down and grabbed my pistol that I keep on the passenger seat under a newspaper when I am alone. Before he got to my vehicle, the revolver was in my hand, pointed his way and ready for action, but not where he could see it. He gave me some BS story about being stranded and needing money to get home. I shook my head no and he moved on. Nothing happened but I was 100% ready to go into action if I had to. Thank God I didn't have to.

[mav88]

wow it's nice to know sport that you too have experienced
That same situation. When I'm in my car, I leave my revolver
Tucked under my right leg instead of my holster or pocket for
Quick grab incase someone approaches my car window
Because it's happened before to me too. It's sad that in society
Now these people have nothing better to do but harass
Others for money and try to use intimidation.Instead
Try to get employed rather than looking for 75cents to buy
A black and mild at stripes LOL.

[BillCA]

Asses [sic] the situation, it's all about one-upping your opponent. He has bare fists, you use a pocket knife, he has a knife or club, you use a firearm. Don't worry about letting him get too close before you draw, if you feel the need to draw then do so. If the tango doesn't get the hint, down him. No matter what happens, good or bad, you're going to take smack from non-carry citizens and lawyers anyway... just do what you have to in order to stay alive.

Someone with bare fists gets to experience OC spray as the first option. Non lethal, no permanent injuries. The knife is a secondary weapon IF you can get to it and deploy it.

How close is too close? The obvious answer is : Close enough to do you harm with the weapons he has.

Since we don't always know what concealed weapons a thug may have and we can't live our lives worrying about anyone getting into a 21 foot circle, we do the best we can.

Alertness and keeping one's eyes moving to evaluate potential threats is a key element.

Teuller Drill:
Remember that this is the average reference point. Someone who is an athlete will be able to cover ground faster. The trick to rendering Teuller's drill lower risk is to be able to think while you move and draw.

In actuality, many of the police tactics we were taught for close-quarter fighting was to move first and worry about weapons later. If your opponent has the drop on you and is closing fast, it's better to prepare to use your hands, OC spray or nightstick (baton) and get away by moving laterally and angularly (towards or away) to screw up his timing. Once you've managed to side step the attack, then draw your weapon as appropriate. In charges against us from about 18 ft, almost all of us were able to sidestep or slip outside the attacker's striking envelope.

[imp]

Origionally posted by JTMcC

In response to heyduke, who recomends:

"learn self defense where one does not need to use a firearm to protect oneself against another person".

Right, my 72 year old widowed Mother, with arthritis, all 4 foot 10 and three quarter inches and 100 lbs of fighting fury, should defend herself in hand to hand combat with the crack head (or more likely in my part of the world a meth head) at the door who is 30 years old, 6'-2", 240 lbs and has been pumping iron in the pen for the last 10 years.
Get a grip man, my Mom will in any self defense situation NEED a firearm. She won't overcome a tough, young, fit, strong criminal using her ninja skills. She will have a very good chance of prevailing by being alert and employing her 12 gage or her pistol.

Some people just amaze me.

JTMcC.

I'll add that my wife, tho 5'-10", young and physically fit, still needs the advantage of her 590 or her 586 when I'm off working if the need arises to defend house and hearth, including the 4 and 7 year old girls we have running around.

I doubt hayduke wants your mother to defend herself from a meth addict with nothing but ninja skills and the force. Sounds like an unlikely scenario at best ( I could be wrong) and even if not, is your 100lb mom capable of quickly and accuratly using that 12 guage scattergun?

Nevertheless, that not my point. Unfortunatly, it has been my sad experience to know many good sized, able bodied men will draw a gun on a guy that looks like he "might be up to no good", when maybe they're just trying to bum 50 cents or a smoke. Too many weinies out there think the gun is the only option, when it should be the last resort.

If you are going to come out ahead in a true self-defense situation, your going to have to be comfortable with yourself. The more comfortable you are unarmed will increase your ability to defend yourself, armed or otherwise, exponentially.

[Brit]

Imp saidIf you are going to come out ahead in a true self-defense situation, your going to have to be comfortable with yourself. The more comfortable you are unarmed will increase your ability to defend yourself, armed or otherwise, exponentially.


(your going to have to be comfortable with yourself) pet peeve, You are, can not be translated to Your, as in belonging to YOU!

Sorry about that, comfort in your own skin, so important, it is not about gun play, or boxing, but rather a balance, a watchfulness you take around with you, draped over your shoulders like a cape, all the time.

At 73 (this month!) my concern is not for myself, but where ever we go, is for my Wife, in my generation, that's your job, or the two lovely 15 year old twin Grand Daughters.

So any threat would not normally be aimed at me, but rather aimed at my Family, a credible threat, the aggressors are shot. Distance? Display of weapons? When you have been involved with violence, which I have, you do not need a written invitation to dance, you recognize the tune.

[imp]

Sorry about my grammar Brit, I'm semi-literate at best at this time of morning.

I do agree with you whole-heartedly. Awareness of the situation, and properly interpreting signs from possible BG's is the most valuable self defense tool available.

Oh yea, Happy Birthday

[Erik]

As each instance is different, each determination will be different. What they will have in common is that folks such as the police, the prosecutor, the judge, and the jury will try to view it through the prism of applicable law and the totality of the circumstances. Play to that by avoiding set distance and time boundaries, instead focusing on an understanding of the law and how to articulate your actions in accordance with it.

[mav88]

well if your in your car you can't really run from someone or
Create a distance, and you cannot start your car faster
Than the agressor reaching for a weapon, thats why I suggest having
Your hand on your firearm without the persons knowing,
Because it is very easy for them to get near
A aim a gun at your head when you are in the
Driver seat. You can always give a verbal warning
But what if the person is persistent and begins to
Become more agressive. On foot is a different
Situation, I would simply get into a boxing
Stance (left foot in front of right) if a person begins to get
Aggressive and be prepared to throw a punch
Or even draw my gun with no hesitation if they have a weapon
Pointed my way. Point blank period.No one here ever wants to get into a "gunplay scenario" and be robo cop
only if the agressor seems like they are reaching for a weapon
To harm someone.

[Nnobby45]

I think it isn't about distance as it is physical fitness and knowing your limits.

Don't claim to be an authority on the subject, but I think a good man with a knife could cut your throat, slice your liver in two, and send you to the morgue in two different coroner vans--- no matter how fit you are or how well you think you know your limits.:cool:

[stephen426]

I think one of the best things to do when there is uncertainty is to move away. If the threat continues to approach, confront them verbally. This will let them know that you are aware of them and may get the attention of others. You might try something such as "Why are you following me?" or "What do you want?". You might even try "Get away from me!" to be more forceful. I would not hesitate to issue verbal warnings after attempting to move away. If this does not work and the threat was closing in, I would start reaching for my weapon (and make it obvious) without drawing. If the threat continues, then I would think their intentions and resolve are such that drawing a weapon on them is justified.

[Nisei]

Don't claim to be an authority on the subject, but I think a good man with a knife could cut your throat, slice your liver in two, and send you to the morgue in two different coroner vans--- no matter how fit you are or how well you think you know your limits.

Point taken, however this goes back to what I said about one-upping the person. He has a knife, take him down with a firearm. I have an interesting view on this matter as I have practiced with folding knives for about 9 years now (we had classes here, but no longer :( ) and I always carry two. I plan to couple that with a CCW soon and call it good enough for now.

EDIT: also, nowhere did I claim I was an authority on this. It's simply my view of the topic at hand.

[Spenser]

A bit off topic, but I did have a thought about keeping threats at a distance. I have not had to actually pull a weapon in self-defense. I hope that I never have to. However, it really does seem important for a person to maintain situational awareness, and to listen to one's instincts regarding people or potential situations. It would seem that it would allow more time for coming up with a course of action, and then implementing it. Avoiding something is preferable to getting right in the middle of it and having to react to it.

I have heard; and believe, that action is faster than reaction.

I had to stop at a pharmacy last night, after dark. While pulling into the parking lot, I noticed three homeless looking folks clustered briefly together around the entrance, about 30 feet from the truck. I had noticed they looked closely at me when I pulled into the parking lot. When I parked, I watched them for a bit, not wanting to walk by them. I had no reason at that point to call the police, but they were acting suspicious. They moved off on foot, pretty quickly. I then got out of the truck and went inside. Once inside, I found out the bums had grabbed some stuff off the shelves and run outside. So they were definitely crooks of some sort. My gut feeling turned out to be fairly on.

Had I not noticed them outside the door, or failed to notice the instinctual alarm bells they set off, I might have walked right in the middle of something that might have turned out bad. Maybe not, but I'm glad that I don't have to find out now.

So I think a person can build a bit of a safety margin if they are paying attention to their surroundings. It would also seem to me that keeping a threat at as much distance as possible would be prudent, if your're lucky enough to have noticed it.

I made a conscious decision to wait and see what happened, from the relative safety of my truck. If these folks had come at me after I exited the truck and I couldn't have gotten back in, I would have backed away, and tried to keep my truck between them and me. If there had been any overtly aggressive moves on their part after they had started to close, including any verbal threats within that 30 feet or so, I'm pretty sure that I would have drawn. I'm pretty sure I would have fired had they closed further on me after drawing, or had they presented a weapon at that point. I feel pretty confident that I would have been legally justified in that course of action.

Again, I'm no tactical guru or have any real experience at this sort of thing, but the distance factor did occur to me in the middle of this thing. Sorry for the slight off-topic comment.

[Sportdog]

I don't think your comment is off topic at all. Real life situations trump keyboard experts all day long IMHO. You are 100% correct in maintaining situational awareness. Avoiding bad situations is far superior to using your fists or CCW to get you out of same.

[Spenser]

Thanks! I was a little nervous about that one.

[Striker071]

Person with a hand weapon coming at you about 21 feet. BillCA had it right as far as your reactions. You have to avoid the threat if you havent pulled your side arm before that. 21 feet has been found to be a distance that an average person can cross in about 2 seconds. Remember it is a totallity of the circumstance if you end up using lethal force. When you are standing in front of a jury and saying that I was threatened by the 4 foot nine inch woman that had a soup cup in her hand when you are 6 foot 2 inches tall and 265 pounds isnt gonna fly when a witness says she was begging for change. Take a extra second entering or exiting a building.. we all have instincts -USE THEM- and if something doesnt feel right then wait and see what happens. If you were wrong then hey you were wrong... but safer in the long run. Its tough when people you go somewhere with look at you like you have threee heads when you say lets go.. now.. did that ina bar once and 3 people were injured by a guy with a knife... my friends dont question anymore. In my opinion you have a responsiblilty to be calmer, more level headed and more situationally aware when you carry a firearm of any sort.

[BillCA]

Spenser,

Good job of keeping your head and staying alert. Sometimes your instincts will key in on things you really haven't noticed. Just remember not to fixate on the obvious threat or get tunnel vision.

When exiting in that situation, step out without locking the doors immediately and observe them. If they change positions as soon as you exit, return to the truck. Otherwise you can lock it a few seconds later than normal.

[JTMcC]

I doubt hayduke wants your mother to defend herself from a meth addict with nothing but ninja skills and the force. Sounds like an unlikely scenario at best ( I could be wrong) and even if not, is your 100lb mom capable of quickly and accuratly using that 12 guage scattergun?


Not to dredge up an old post (I've been busy) but....
Of course she is, I wouldn't leave her alone with it if she wasn't. The question seems dumb to me.
She runs it on a regular basis on the range in her back yard, in broad daylight and in low light. She is an elderly, tough, athletic and competent gal.
She's burned thru many boxes of shells and understands the operation, controls and capabilities of the slick old 1100.
Don't assume that being old(er) and small(er) means a person is incompetent or unpractised.
Belligerent dogs, coyotes, lions or (less comonly) humans are all in danger in my Dear Old Mom's yard because she's capable with all of her firearms.

Again I apolojize for reasurecting this old post but it did need a reply.

JTMcC.

[Kyo]

if acting funny, 20-25 feet. I don't have a radar on me at all times, so I won't know what 21 really is, but i will have a good estimate.
If in that range and i feel something, I will "withdraw" and if followed then i will announce my intention of defense if the set up for the pounce continues.

[N.H. Yankee]

I say retreat if at all possible, 10 feet is as close as I want ANY perp with s knife close to me, 50 feet is as close as I want a perp armed with a gun, but as the saying goes I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Much depends upon the viewpoint of local PD and prosecutor. If you are unlucky enough to get anti-gun Liberals you are in for the second fight of your life regardless of what happened. Much depends upon your statements and terminology to police, you cannot express enough the fear for your safety and foul language will not bolster your case. Also if there are witness's make sure you announce to the perp loudly to halt back-off you are posing a threat, that is assuming you have time. Witness testimony in your favor can be crucial. DO not say I'll blow your f&ng head-off etc. in court the jury will see you as a macho hothead looking for a reason to pull the trigger.

Do not say more than you have too and chose your words wisely! Some lawyers will tell you say nothing and ask for counsel, others say this may make you look like you have something to hide. Its a judgment call and I think all you can do is evaluate the posture of the investigator.

[fiddletown]

One can not get into a "cookbook" frame of mind and pre-program formula responses -- e. g., X feet = draw my gun and shoot, or anything like that.

Every situation is potentially different and must be assessed. The process is sometimes referred to as OODA, Observe, Orient, Decide and Act. This must be done very quickly, of course.

While the exact rules vary by state, in general, you are justified in employing lethal force only when a reasonable and prudent person, in like circumstances and knowing what you know, would conclude that lethal force is necessary to prevent otherwise unavoidable, imminent death or grave bodily injury to an innocent. To demonstrate that there was indeed a real danger from the assailant, one must show that the assailant had (1) the Ability, i. e., the power to deliver force sufficient to cause death or grave bodily harm; (2) the Opportunity, i. e., the assailant was capable of immediately deploying such force; and (3) put an innocent in Jeopardy, i. e., the assailant was acting in such a manner that a reasonable and prudent person would conclude that he has the intent to kill or cripple. A person claiming self defense will need to be able to articulate why in the exact situation as it unfolded he concluded that lethal force was necessary based in the forgoing paradigm.

Of course any decision must be made quickly. But that is one reason training and practice can be so important. One wants to be confident of his skills. His focus needs to be on observing and assessing the situation and deciding what to, fast, and not wasting his extremely valuable and limited time wondering how to make his gun work or if he can hit the target if he decides to shoot.

[The Canuck]

Ability, Means, Intent, Opportunity, and actually putting you in Jeapordy are the five criteria in Nevada.

Or: That a reasonable person would have good reason to believe that his/her life was in immediate danger.

Ability, Intent, and Opportunity do not, alone, indicate that the suspect had either the means or that he put you in jeapordy. Not to say that couldn't be the case.


Of course you are right. I missed the whole means thing, having edited it in there in my brain, but having failed to put it down in electronic print...

[Blue Steel]

My gut feeling turned out to be fairly on.

Excellent point made here about instincts, and I would encourage everyone to read "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin DeBecker.


As far as the thread question, I think that the individual situation will dictate your actions. Generally I would say to practice situational awareness, avoidance, and do not be afraid to challenge someone if you feel you need to. Criminals are looking for the weak and unprepared because they are easy to take advantage of. If you are aware and present yourself as confident, you will avoid most negative interactions.

Those who are physically able should have some basic foundation in open-hand defense techniques. Michael Janich teaches a very basic form of overhand strikes he calls "cycling" that is easy to learn. You don't have to be a black belt in Judo (while that would be nice), you just need to make sure you have some options for defending yourself from a non-lethal threat.

[BGutzman]

When you can say I feared for my life as any reasonable person would have under the circumstances.
AND
I could not retreat or I was retreating
AND
the BG(s) had the means to greviously harm or kill me
AND
the danger way imminent and there was no other alternative

when you get to this unfortunate point
lase (Laser) and blaze with the minimum amount of force necessary to stop the threat.

call the police (before someone else does)
aid the wounded (as your state may require)

await your arrest until it all gets sorted out.

:cool:

[waterfowler]

A police officer said if you feel that your life is in immediate danger, draw your weapon. give him a verbal command, and if they still persist fire