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thaddeus
April 20, 1999, 01:16 PM
There was another school shooting just minutes ago in Littleton, Jefferson County, Colorado (a suburb of Denver).
Two students (?) in black trenchcoats shot studetns as they were coming out of the school, and threw at least one grenade, which according to the Sherrif's dept., exploded.
I can't imagine where they got a grenade, unless they made it. Multiple grenades were implied by the report. No other details given yet.
Please, any more info on this would be appreciated.

I must ask myself, as everyone else must be: Why the heck does this keep happening? What is with these kids, what posseses them? And also, what is this going to do to our gun rights as it keeps happening?

thaddeus

Kodiac
April 20, 1999, 01:27 PM
What is with the kids?

Listen to the music - play those video games... You'll see.

We have made a new generation of disgruntled postal workers. As parents - we need to look closer at what they watch, play and listen to.


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"There is no Spoon"

Mendocino
April 20, 1999, 01:27 PM
Uhh ohh...black trench coats. The media will blame it on the Matrix, the parents will claim no responsibility for their children's behaviour, and Clinton will take more of our unalienable rights by spinning this into his administration's agenda.

thaddeus
April 20, 1999, 01:35 PM
Update, for those that may be reading this for the first time or at work:
Two or more kids in a group that call themselves the "Trenchcoat Mafia" who are students in the high school and claimed to be "made fun of for always wearing black trenchcoats", waged an apparent all-out, planned ASAULT on the high school with pipe bombs , shotguns and semi-autos. According to an escaped student, they "blew up the library" with kids inside, shot many, and are at the moment still in the compound of the school, surrounded by Police. According to the student, he suspects that they are getting revenge for being outcasts, and probably "many students are dead".

This is all happening at the moment, so the accuracy could be flawed, knowing how witness reports are.

Kodiac
April 20, 1999, 01:52 PM
God help those kids and families...

These maniacs will pay and hopfully very soon!

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"There is no Spoon"

thaddeus
April 20, 1999, 02:05 PM
It is too long to copy to here, but if you want to see my personal opinion on what and why these kids do this, look waaay down about 3/4 of the way down on this post on my site:

http://www.knifeforums.com/ubb/Forum34/HTML/000112.html

Just my opinion there, but I have some pretty good supportive reasons on why I think these things cause borderline kids to go over the edge.

Morgan
April 20, 1999, 02:07 PM
God help us all in Colorado - this could put a BIG damper on the proposed concealed carry reform currently going through the statehouse. I hope people realize that this has nothing to do with concealed carry by law abiding citizens, except maybe a lawful CCW could have put an end to it much more quickly.

Rich Lucibella
April 20, 1999, 02:20 PM
I watch this in growing disgust. Maybe it's time we start restricting the right to pro-create. If parents can't prevent this or, at the very least, see it coming they must be smoking dope!!
Rich

Ed Brunner
April 20, 1999, 02:23 PM
To blame it on movies,TV and TV games is to overlook the fact that many young people use all these things and turn out OK.I dont think they are the reasons.
All of the people who do these crimes seem to have the same common denominator-they have nothing to lose-or nothing left to lose.
Somewhere along the line these kids lost, discarded or never had the concept of a future for themselves and that is sad.


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Better days to be,

Ed

weiser09
April 20, 1999, 02:28 PM
Just heard that one of the students was shot in the face with a shotgun. No info on the condition of the person though.

Rob Pincus
April 20, 1999, 02:45 PM
14 wounded at this point.

The police currently have three guys at gun point and they are being arrested. They were NOT wearing trenchcoats, but were wearing all black......

They are apparently friends of the suspects...

(If anyone is interested I am going to open a window and be in the GlockTalk Chat room, if anyone wants to discuss this realtime : http://ericcom.com/glocktalk/chat/ )

[This message has been edited by Rob (edited April 20, 1999).]

DC
April 20, 1999, 02:48 PM
This just in...an interview with a student:
The "Trenchcoat Mafia" is a group of 20+ guys, always have trenchcoats, wear makeup and black nailpolish and always dress in black. Always talking about death and violence. Have been making threats for at least 6 months and talking about starting Y2K now.

Local news feed.


Interesting, an asocial fringe group, makes threats, all the danger signs but nothing was done before the fact....yet, HCI et al criminalizes me and you all.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

Destructo6
April 20, 1999, 02:49 PM
WTFO?

KNIGHT
April 20, 1999, 03:11 PM
There are so many conflicting news reports that I try not to believe them until the end of the situation. For instance on FOX NEWS three different reporters said a different number for the injured. Within the space of 10min they went from having 4 injured to 9 injured down to 8 injured. And the one woman reporter that is now quoted as saying "I can't believe that childeren from such an affleuent neighborhood, being of such high intelligence would do such a thing." This idiot of a person now has the distinction in my mind as being the dumbest reporter of them all! And hand grenades!?!? Come on people do we really believe that these kids got ahold of grenades! Pipe bombs are to easy to make! The suplies are at the local Wal-Mart and hardware stores.
1. These people went in with a specific plan.
2. These kids will get killed by the cops. 3. And something else other than parenting skills will be blamed on this horrible tragedy.
It maybe a movie, gun control, music, or what ever the case maybe you will never hear a parent say, "If only I had payed more attention," or, " I should have known he was getting depressed!" I want the people who do the crime to do the time, if they get killed in the process whoopdie-doo. Less taxpayers money wasted, but when it's over then it's over. Nobody has to be sued over this kids psycopathic rampage! Why should it be in the news for the next 6 months? Why should we have to find the culpret if he's DEAD? huh? Why? Why? Why?

[This message has been edited by KNIGHT (edited April 20, 1999).]

Morgan
April 20, 1999, 03:27 PM
I keep hearing about "automatic" weapons on TV - obviously, the talking heads don't know what they're talking about.

Rob Pincus
April 20, 1999, 03:34 PM
They have SWAT teams inside the building clearing room by room and getting the students/faculty out....

Clinton just said that he would have more to say after "events unfold..."

The three young people that werte arrested at gunpoint have been released and had nothing to do with the shooting. THey were taken into custody because they were dressed in a way that would indicate involvement.... That could've been a lot worse...

[This message has been edited by Rob (edited April 20, 1999).]

Jffal
April 20, 1999, 03:36 PM
Newshawks also reported possible "large caliber handguns" and "bodyarmour" in the possession of the suspects.

Other newsies speculated that explosions beyond the schoolwalls may have been set by the suspected accomplices.

My prayers are with the victims and their families and the emergency personnel out there containing this tragic situation.

Ooops! A Howard Stern toady (Captain Janks I think) just prank phonecalled a news station live over the air.

I am comfortable with Ed's comment - the majority of children and adults who indulge in today's entertainment are well behaved citizens. There are always individuals who believe that they were pushed too far and strike.
Jeff

Ps - better come down on comicbooks, also. The "trenchcoat mafia" may also be an allusion to the misfit antiheroes who populate the gothic Vertigo/ DC comicbooks.

[This message has been edited by Jffal (edited April 20, 1999).]

BAB
April 20, 1999, 03:44 PM
Morgan--my fear exactly. Any way to convince the CO legislature that this type of tragedy is EXACTLY why we need CCW reform?? Any way to convince them to take Prof. Lott's findings to heart...that the passage of nondiscretionary concealed-handgun laws invariably has the effect of dropping a state's rate of mass public shootings, including school shootings, to near zero?

BAB

Rob Pincus
April 20, 1999, 03:47 PM
One station just reported that the HRT has shown up...

"... we are here to help....."

Morgan
April 20, 1999, 03:56 PM
Boy, I'd hate to be one of the police clearing the building - running into hysterical groups hiding in rooms, never knowing who's a perp and who's just a student. Hope they're down on their 'shoot - no shoot' drills.

cornered rat
April 20, 1999, 03:57 PM
Excuse me, it is my turn to be physically sick.

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Cornered Rat
ddb.com/RKBA (http://ddb.com/RKBA) Updated March 20
"Turn in your guns, get a a free tattoo on your arm"

cornered rat
April 20, 1999, 04:12 PM
I wonder if, in a decade or two, we will find out that the generically described gunmen were patsies and the real critters were borrowed from any one of the fed agencies...

Then again, why would I ever suspect foul play, it is probably just red-blooded American kids acting out.

I only hope, if these nutcases are actually genuine, that there will be no prisoners...

PS: People at work just got the news and are gum-flapping about it. I just ordered a case of rifle ammo, just in case there's a fall-out from this...I think we know what kind of spin ABC is putting on this.

[This message has been edited by cornered rat (edited April 20, 1999).]

Rob Pincus
April 20, 1999, 05:06 PM
How about if we keep this thread for Fact based posts and start a new one for theories about the how/why and possible ramifications..

I would prefer that, if it is okay with everyone else.....


*** Meanwhile, it seems that there has been more shooting just before 6 pm Eastern....

The Gov. of CO is blaming the "culture of violence".. he never mentioned guns, in fact he declined to answer a question about possible "gun legislation".... He was putting a lot of blame on parents from my take.

Kodiac
April 20, 1999, 05:10 PM
The Sheriff just said they have 2 dead suspects... and wounded as high as 25.

How many suspects are there?

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CHECK OUT WWW.ECHOSTATION.COM

Rob Pincus
April 20, 1999, 05:17 PM
Kodiac, I heard two most of the day, but the last hour or so, they have been saying possibly 3....

According to that Sherriff he said the suspects were "found" dead... and that they were several fatalities....


Jsut heard that they have found bomb in one of the suspect's homes...

[This message has been edited by Rob (edited April 20, 1999).]

Kodiac
April 20, 1999, 05:21 PM
Holly...
CNN just said the sheriff said the number dead may be as high as 25...

My god... Where were these kid's parent? they said they been talking about this for as long as 6 months - and no one ever said anything?

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CHECK OUT WWW.ECHOSTATION.COM

John/az2
April 20, 1999, 06:11 PM
This is the first I have heard about this. What a tragedy! Does anyone else find the timing of all these school shootings just a bit too convenient?

And I just got this in my e-box:

From: wewinluv@leading.net (katie charles)
To: ZOBOLI@aol.com


This is an extract of an National Public Radio (NPR) interview between a female broadcaster and US Army Lieutenant General Reinwald about sponsoring a Boy Scout Troop on his military installation.

Interviewer: "So, LTG Reinwald, what are you going to do with these young boys on their adventure holiday?"

LTG Reinwald: "We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing, archery, and shooting."

Interviewer: "Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible,isn't it?"

LTG Reinwald: "I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the range."

Interviewer: "Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?"

LTG Reinwald: "I don't see how, we will be teaching them proper range discipline before they even touch a firearm."

Interviewer: "But you're equipping them to become violent killers."

LTG Reinwald: "Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?"

End of the interview


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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."

HM3
April 20, 1999, 07:09 PM
John, I've been wondering the same thing ever since the first school shooting. That came right on the heels of the repeal of certain portions of the Brady Bill by the Supreme Court. Maybe I'm way too paranoid, but I just can't help but wonder.....

Kit Barton
April 20, 1999, 07:51 PM
All of these school shootings could have been cut short if a teacher, with propper training, carried a handgun. BUT!!!, we will never sell it.
Kit in AR

spleenandideal
April 20, 1999, 08:28 PM
What we need in this country is:
1- Limitation of procreation. People need to get a license and take classes before considering raising a family. It should be a stringent pass/fail. It is not the media, the gun culture, video games or the the kind of dog you own; It's about poor parenting and a lack of discipline. God help us all.

Ed Brunner
April 20, 1999, 09:01 PM
Check www.drudgereport.com (http://www.drudgereport.com) re the AOL warnings?????????

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Better days to be,

Ed

Jeff Thomas
April 21, 1999, 12:43 AM
Ed's found an interesting tidbit - you should read the post re: the AOL missive by 'gay bikers'.

Of course, no matter what the reason for this incredible tragedy, we'll hear that things will be better if we just pass a few more laws. While Hollywood's anti-self defense-types churn out more violent films and TV programming ... And no, I don't think they are to blame for most of such violence, but I feel they are contributing factors. Since I believe in freedom of speech and expression, I am unsure what actions can be taken. However, I do find it tragically fascinating that some anti-gunners make violent movies.

Let me ask two questions of our more experienced TFL'ers:

1. Does the NRA have any type of anti-violence program? If not, we should. If so, where would I find info (they have a huge web site).

2. Is it true that the Principal in the Arkansas school shooting stopped the attackers by retrieving his gun from his car?

At this point it appears that 25 people may have tragically lost their lives today in Littleton, CO. What a waste.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited April 21, 1999).]

thaddeus
April 21, 1999, 01:23 AM
Susan Pollack of Handgun Control Inc. was interviewed on the news, and she had some brilliant insight into this situation, even though we don't know anything about the guns used, nor the capacity thereof, except that a shotgun was used, shich holds much less than ten rounds. She said:

'We do know that there is one law in progress that would have prevented this tragedy, and that is the law limiting all handguns to only a ten pound capacity'.

Obviously, in light of the fact that we don't even know what kinds of guns they were using, or how many rounds they held, or how the crime went down, or how this would have made a difference, I surely don't have to rant about how assinine ofa a statement that is, do I?

Here in SoCal, they are already using that leverage to praise the law in progress about benning ALL hi-cap mags, even the ones we own.

thaddeus

thaddeus
April 21, 1999, 01:31 AM
"Smoke" on my site informed me of this relationship of the gunmen to an anarchist group "UAP". Check out this site, and what this group had to say about their members doing this crime:

http://www.overthrow.com/home.html

their comments on the crime, with a genuine lack of concern, believeing that this was a small casualty in a larger war against the system:

http://www.overthrow.com/leadstory42099.html

As an aside, this is the first I have heard, that only one black person was hit out of forty, so I guess it is hard to pin racial motivations as we are hearing on the news.

Initial reports, in the afternoon, also stated that the suspects were openly gay/bisexual. No more word on that. Provided it was true (is was said in student interviews), I always like to watch for tidbits like that, and see what the media does with it, usually out of political correctness.

thaddeus

[This message has been edited by thaddeus (edited April 21, 1999).]

Grayfox
April 21, 1999, 02:14 AM
I wonder if Susan Pollack is aware that many of the victims were killed by the homemade pipe bombs? Late reports say many had shrapnel wounds. Let's see if she can put a magazine capacity on them.

Hal
April 21, 1999, 03:05 AM
thaddeus: Your sources may be out of date. TV viewing is on the decline among teens. What most of us here use as a means of shareing info, fellowship, occasional jabs and other such friendly exchanges, is being used by much of today's kids as a *religion*. Never before in the history of mankind has the exchange of information,graphic information been so readily available.

45King
April 21, 1999, 06:19 AM
J. Thomas> Does the NRA have any type of anti-violence program? If not, we should.

I respectfully disagree. The NRA exists for the purpose of promoting shooting skills and firearm safety, as well as defending 2nd amendment rights. The idea of "violence prevention" is a liberal invention of people who are too stupid to realize that violence is not a disease. I would sincerely hope that the NRA would not buy into such an intellectually bankrupt idea. Should it do so, that would portend the death of the organization as a viable entity for defending our rights.
Violence is a part of the very fabric of the universe. Life on earth would not be possible without the occurence of the most violent event in nature (nuclear fusion on the star Sol, our sun.) Those who buy into "violence prevention" of the CDC/HCI/CPHV type are refusing to recognize a basic fact: existence is, always has been, and will continue to be, very dangerous. One might go so far as to say: Life is hazardous to your health.

Regards, Richard-NRA Life

Jeff Thomas
April 21, 1999, 10:57 AM
45King, I'm not suggesting the NRA become kinder and gentler with our foes, or that it become focused on touchy feely approaches to the exclusion of firearms.

What I am suggesting is that programs such as Eddie Eagle and others include a portion to help kids (especially) understand that violence should not be used to solve problems. That is, the initiation of violence against others. Appropriate defense is fine - attacks are obviously not. If these programs already include such features, great. If not, they should be incorporated.

For example, in our CCW class we spoke at length about the continuum of force, efforts to avoid problem situations, potential cover and retreat, legal implications, etc. From my perspective this is logical - not a liberal invention. Kids operate at a little different level, and some clearly choose violence instead of the many alternatives they should choose.

If the NRA and other pro-self defense groups don't acknowledge this need, our enemies will continue to make us look uncaring, unrealistic and part of the problem instead of the solution. That is not true, and we should not allow them to take this high ground. I think we can do that without becoming the quivering piles of matter that they often are.

I certainly see this approach as reasonable, practical, smart politically, and preferable to making sure I buy another case of ammo before the latest tragedy trims my rights further and further.

Do we still disagree with each other?

KNIGHT
April 21, 1999, 12:02 PM
So will we now be limited to only 1 pound of powder per household now? Only 6in of pipe? Limits are not the key. Loving and caring perents are the key. Discipline is another contributing factor. These are what make parents. The world has its evil and the world needs to understand that only by educating are we ever going to keep the OK city's, Ruby Ridge's,and Littleton's from happening. EDUCATION AND LOVING PARENTS ARE THE KEY! What do you guys and gals think?

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The needs of the many out way the needs of the few, or the one.




[This message has been edited by KNIGHT (edited April 21, 1999).]

John/az2
April 21, 1999, 06:11 PM
Knight,

Agreed.

On the morning show here in Phoenix, a caller stated that discipline has to start in kindergarten... I would submit that it starts much earlier: in the home! With real parents, with real convictions, and real self-discipline themselves. It is impossible to teach something that one is not, unless it is acting! ;) Then you have to account for the free agency of the child. There is a point in their lives when they have the right to stand for their decisions and face the consequences. Many times, as parents, we've just got to let them go with the understanding that we have done, in the spirit of love, all that we can do, and that their life is their own.

This same caller also speculated that Littleton would have to raze the school building and build another so that these students are not subjected to unnecessary emotional trauma. As I interpreted this statement: "Let's make our children emotionally weaker."

How about providing counciling for those who need/want it?

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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."



[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited April 21, 1999).]

chink
April 21, 1999, 08:38 PM
From cnn.com
"...the weapons included:
1 9 mm semi-automatic,
assault-style rifle
2 shotguns that had the
stocks sawed off
At least one handgun "

hmm... thats a nice arsenal.

HankL
April 21, 1999, 08:41 PM
Jeff Thomas, One of the faculty members at Pearl High School in Miss. stopped Luke Woodham from leaving the scene of that unfortunate incident. The faculty member used his own PDW, retrieved from his vehicle. Some stuff started to fall on this hero because of the law against having a firearm on the school property but I think that it has gone away.

On the current topic I haven't enough words to express my sympathy to all of the people involved. My heart aches for all of the survivors, friends and family. For the dead, God knows his own and will provide for them.

Most sincerely,
Hank

45King
April 24, 1999, 06:02 PM
JT>Do we still disagree with each other?

I'm afraid so. "Anti-violence" is a statement against violence, and self-defense often requires the use of violence. Too many people see the use of violence by non-LEOs or military as being immoral and illegal. I realize that they are amoral idiots, but that's the reality we have to deal with. Were the NRA or any other gun rights organization to begin trying to preach "anti-violence", it would be taken as a hypoctical statement by us, and twisted to further undermine what support we do have. "How can you trust anything they say? They say they're against violence, but they want people to have guns so that they can kill them if attacked? Being against violence means that if you're attacked, you just let your attacker do what he wishes, so that you don't add to the violence in society." They never stop to consider that once a goop launches his assault, you're already a part of the violence, like it or not, and your only choice is now to become a victim or a survivor.
Leave the "anti-violence conflict resolution" to those who can teach it. Face it, we teach the judicious, legal, and moral application of violence. The two don't mix.



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Shoot straight regards, Richard