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View Full Version : is a C&R required for ALL Mosins?


Tatsumi67
September 29, 2008, 07:20 AM
I just had a bit on quandry, I see surplus M91/30s and 44s sold at gunshows for as little as $75 and I thought about picking one up just because a beater rifle with ammo that cheap would be a good way to get more shooting in without breaking bank.

So my question is, is a C&R permity/cert. required for ALL Mosins or is there some kind of qualification like age of gun or arsenal markings or something?

fierocdsp
September 29, 2008, 07:33 AM
For the lists of C&R guns, you have to go straight to the BATFE listing to be sure.

THis is the listing up to 2001. There have been several updates to add guns.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/sec2.htm

Look under "R" for russian.
Russian (U.S.S.R.), model 1891, Mosin-Nagant rifles, cal. 7.62 x 54R and .22 cal., all models and all variations, mfd. after 1898 (i.e., M1891/30, M1910, M1938, and M1944).

Along with:
Rumanian Mosin Nagant 1944 type carbines, caliber 7.62 X 54R, manufactured in Romania, and manufactured from 1952 to 1956.

So yes, all Mosins are included, though any modifications (other than functional repair) removes their C&R status.

Tamara
September 29, 2008, 07:38 AM
Additionally, any weapon over 50 years old and in its original form is qualified as a C&R.
So my question is, is a C&R permity/cert. required for ALL Mosins...
However, a C&R license is not "required" to buy one at a gun show, as long as you comply with all other federal, state, and local rules. In other words, there are no special restrictions on them because they are C&R.

Tatsumi67
September 29, 2008, 07:41 AM
Okay thanks. I'm pretty certain I could just get one then.

But this thread reveals something: I need info.

What exactly is the whole deal with C&R? Is it just a classification or does it require a permit or some standards or tax stamps or something?

fierocdsp
September 29, 2008, 07:43 AM
So my question is, is a C&R permity/cert. required for ALL Mosins or is there some kind of qualification like age of gun or arsenal markings or something?

Err... Were you asking if you needed a C&R to own one? Or were you asking if there had to be a certificate to certify one as being C&R elligible?

A C&R permit allows the bearer to purchase C&R listed guns and have them shipped directly to them without the run-around of the NICS check or 01 class FFL. The BATFE takes their list seriously, so if you have a C&R, you better have a copy and keep it updated. Any gun on that list (or falls into the serial numbers listed for NFA exemptions) is a C&R gun. They aren't issued a paper saying they are C&R elligible. You have to look at the list.

Many online sellers will list whether they are C&R elligible or not, as they'd rather save you a NICS check if they legally can. It's good for business. If you buy one Mosin with a C&R, why not buy three, ya know?

fierocdsp
September 29, 2008, 07:54 AM
A C&R license IS an actually FFL. It's called the 03 FFL. You have to fill out paperwork, give a copy to your Chief LEO, and send it in to the BATFE. If the CLEO doesn't file an objection on the paperwork, there usually isn't anything holding it back. They do a deep background check (at least a little deeper than NICS), and collect your $30. If you pass, they ship you the C&R.

Any gun you buy with the C&R must be logged into a bound book, and if sold later, must be logged out.
The real benefits rom having a C&R are as follows:
-No NICS check on the qualifying guns.
-No requirement to receive via an 01FFL. (i.e. it can be delivered directly to you)
-"dealers" discounts at most mail-order and internet accessory places (MidwayUSA, etc) You fax them a copy of your FFL and tell them you'd like the dealer's discount.

wjkuleck
September 29, 2008, 07:58 AM
Note also that Mosins (or any firearm, for that matter) manufactured prior to 1899 is an antique, and thus exempt from all the GCA '68 regulations. This would apply to hex-receiver '91's, of course, as the M91/30 was strictly a post-WWI piece.

I've run into Finn M39s that were antique! You can verify the manufacture date on most '91's that have had the barrel changed (where the year is customarily found) by removing the stock, then looking at the bottom of the tang. If the mark hasn't been refinished off, you'll see a year (first "1" is often missing), such as 891G (where "G" is standing in for the Cyrillic "Geh," short for Goda, or year).

Enjoy.

Walt

fierocdsp
September 29, 2008, 08:09 AM
http://www.cruffler.com/Here's an okay site, though I'm sure if you ask around here enough, someone will tell you a lot more than I know. I'm staring at the paperwork, but I haven't filled it out yet. Been sittin on it a while since I have no extra cash and a C&R might get me in deeper with the credit cards. :D

Tamara
September 29, 2008, 09:07 AM
This would apply to hex-receiver '91's...

To clarify for newbs that may be reading this: Some hex receiver '91s.

BTW, good info on the dating of a receiver, there; thanks! :)

The only hex-receiver Mosin I have so far is a New England Westinghouse that got back to the US via a long detour through Finland. :cool:

carguychris
September 30, 2008, 09:33 AM
A C&R permit allows the bearer to purchase C&R listed guns and have them shipped directly to them without the run-around of the NICS check or 01 class FFL. The BATFE takes their list seriously, so if you have a C&R, you better have a copy and keep it updated. Any gun on that list (or falls into the serial numbers listed for NFA exemptions) is a C&R gun. They aren't issued a paper saying they are C&R elligible. You have to look at the list.
There's also a "catch-all" C&R classification covering all guns over 50 years old, but is has some caveats. Refer to this recent thread:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312258

The other main benefit of an 03 C&R, other than what's already been listed, is that you can buy and sell C&R firearms directly from and to non-licensees who reside in other states. However, if you're selling one, the transaction should be person-to-person.

I think this is a good time to bring up a few things you CAN'T do with a C&R:

-You get no special priveleges whatsoever for buying, selling, or shipping firearms that aren't C&R
-You get no special priveleges regarding NFA firearms; certain firearms may be C&R and NFA, but you still have to jump through the usual NFA hoops
-You still can't ship handguns through the U.S. mail; that privelege comes with an 01 "Dealer" FFL, not an 03 "Collector" C&R FFL, contrary to frequently repeated misinformation :rolleyes:

wjkuleck
September 30, 2008, 10:40 AM
-You get no special priveleges regarding NFA firearms; certain firearms may be C&R and NFA, but you still have to jump through the usual NFA hoops

Actually, the C&R does do you a little "good" when acquiring a C&R NFA firearm interstate. A C&R holder may have the firearm shipped directly to him or her, after the Form 6 approval. Non-C&R NFA firearms, or NFA firearms to a non-holder, must go through an NFA dealer in the purchaser's state of residence. That means extra time, and a second $200 transfer tax.

Regards,

Walt

carguychris
September 30, 2008, 11:50 AM
Actually, the C&R does do you a little "good" when acquiring a C&R NFA firearm interstate. A C&R holder may have the firearm shipped directly to him or her, after the Form 6 approval. Non-C&R NFA firearms, or NFA firearms to a non-holder, must go through an NFA dealer in the purchaser's state of residence. That means extra time, and a second $200 transfer tax.
Yes, you're correct. I should have been a little more specific.

My point was that the C&R license doesn't exempt you from paying the initial transfer tax and doing the paperwork.

wjkuleck
September 30, 2008, 12:56 PM
:) We are in violent agreement ;)!

Best regards,

Walt

Tatsumi67
September 30, 2008, 03:56 PM
Well I bought it, check out the thread in Rifle forums. link soon.

Hkmp5sd
September 30, 2008, 04:03 PM
The other main benefit of an 03 C&R, other than what's already been listed, is that you can buy and sell C&R firearms directly from and to non-licensees who reside in other states. However, if you're selling one, the transaction should be person-to-person.


Clarification: You may sell a C&R Rifle or Shotgun to a non-licensee from another state provided the transaction takes place at your licenses premises and the sale is legal in both your state and the state of the purchaser. You may not sell C&R handguns to a non-licensee from another state.

§ 478.29 Out-of-State acquisition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, shall transport into or receive in the State where the person resides (or if a corporation or other business entity, where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State: Provided, That the provisions of this section:
<snip>
(b) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a rifle or shotgun obtained from a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector in a State other than the transferee's State of residence in an over-the-counter transaction at the licensee's premises obtained in conformity with the provisions of § 478.96(c)

carguychris
October 1, 2008, 10:28 AM
Clarification: You may sell a C&R Rifle or Shotgun to a non-licensee from another state provided the transaction takes place at your licenses premises and the sale is legal in both your state and the state of the purchaser. You may not sell C&R handguns to a non-licensee from another state.
Correct. The rules are so complex that even when you try to be thorough, you tend to forget to write a thing or two... :rolleyes: