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SPUSCG
September 23, 2008, 02:16 PM
im buying an 1851 in 44 soon since A. I want one B. I need a hunting sidearm. is there any expanding ammo or hunting rounds i can use or just the regular old round ball?

Raider2000
September 23, 2008, 02:42 PM
There used to be Buffalo Balletts that were 180gr. that was an improvement in striking energy but I don't think they are available anymore.

I don't have the mold at the moment but the 200gr. Lee cast RN conical will work in that Pistol & also improve the striking energy but at the moment it would have to be hand cast by either you or some one willing to do it for you.

I've made a thread in the sales area of here for those Lee bullets but I'd have to get the 200gr. mold since my old one is out of commision ATM.

noelf2
September 23, 2008, 03:17 PM
From my understaning and research, you will have better accuracy with round ball anyway. You may want to pick up a conversion cylinder for it so you can shoot 45LC cowboy action ammo (as long as the frame isn't brass). I did that with my 1858 NMA and load my own 45LC rounds with black powder or smokeless (loaded to cowboy action specs) and press in a 250gr LRN bullet. Only problem is that the conversion cylinder runs around 240 bucks.

simonkenton
September 23, 2008, 08:13 PM
If you are talking about defense from a wild critter you need a conical slug.
For defense from a human, the round ball is what you want.
One torso shot will put 'em down for the count.

Raider2000
September 23, 2008, 08:33 PM
If you are talking about defense from a wild critter you need a conical slug.
For defense from a human, the round ball is what you want.
One torso shot will put 'em down for the count.

Agreed a ball is quite an effective projectile within a resonable distance but I'm thinking of more twords the 4 legged creatures than 2, a more modern design weapon would be better suited for 2 legged critters today but if all he had was a C&B revolver then a conical bullet would be an equalizer for either.

4V50 Gary
September 23, 2008, 09:40 PM
On the issue of expansion, with soft lead balls, it really isn't an issue. They expand anyway and deform upon impact.

Smokin_Gun
September 24, 2008, 02:48 AM
I'd opt for the 137-143 gr Round ball myself...that's all I use in soft lead form.

And I do still keep a .44 1858 Rem or 2 loaded for home Defence, close at hand. They worked before the 1911 .45 Autos were around, so I guess it's jus' how much faith you have in your Rev, thumb, and Finger.

Yup there is a loaded 12ga Ithica Police D.S. in the safe and a Ruger .357mag also both loaded...but it's a Rem that sleeps with one eye open within arms reach.

SG

Raider2000
September 24, 2008, 04:15 AM
I'd opt for the 137-143 gr Round ball myself...that's all I use in soft lead form.

And I do still keep a .44 1858 Rem or 2 loaded for home Defence, close at hand. They worked before the 1911 .45 Autos were around, so I guess it's jus' how much faith you have in your Rev, thumb, and Finger.

Yup there is a loaded 12ga Ithica Police D.S. in the safe and a Ruger .357mag also both loaded...but it's a Rem that sleeps with one eye open within arms reach.

SG
Man we must be brothers or something because we do seem to think alike ;)

Smokin_Gun
September 24, 2008, 04:55 AM
Man we must be brothers or something because we do seem to think alike

Born and raised a Country Boy...I had the privilage of shuckin' peas from the garden...I can remember seein' two like peas in a pod. And I shucked alot a peas...HeeHee!

I take that as acompliment commin' from you,
Thanks Raider 2000,

SG

simonkenton
September 24, 2008, 12:23 PM
Wild Bill Hickok killed a man with a single shot to the chest from an 1851 Navy, .36 caliber round ball.

I have a couple of cap and ball .44s around for household defense.
I have read reports from the Civil War and the troopers said the round ball worked better than the conical slug on humans.
Foraging for cattle, they preferred the elongated slug.
They said that a single shot with the round ball would knock the enemy trooper out of the saddle, and out of the fight.
Whether he died or not they didn't say, I doubt they went back and checked his pulse.

SPUSCG
September 24, 2008, 03:38 PM
im not allowed to have guns in my house anyway...ill move out after "a" school though and the reminton will be under my bed where it belongs, the revolver will be a fun gun and a hunting sidearm, black powder is fun

Fingers McGee
September 24, 2008, 06:29 PM
Quote Raider2000
There used to be Buffalo Balletts that were 180gr. that was an improvement in striking energy but I don't think they are available anymore.


Cabelas still has em.

Slick Silver Conical Pistol Bullets, Buffalo Bullet Company. 180 grain ,451 hollow based, pure lead, round-nose bullets. Silver Slick dry-lubricated to reduce fouling and increase velocity. Reduced bullet heel aids loading. Per 50 bullets. Available: .36, .44, .45.

noelf2
September 25, 2008, 07:19 AM
Hmmm... I wonder if I could seat them in a 45lc case over about 30 to 35 gr of BP? I've been known to seat a round ball in a 45lc case with a lubed felt patch and 35gr BP under it. This probably wouldn't need the patch, and might shoot pretty good from my conversion cylinder. Would be easier to crimp as well.

Deadguy
September 25, 2008, 10:49 AM
I use the Lee .45 caliber 200 grain REAL bullets on top of a lubed wad. They load straight and easy in the Remingtons, 1860's, Dragoons, and Walkers, and they hit the target with a real good THWACK. With the flat nose, and cast out of pure lead, they are going to make a real mess out of whatever you shoot it at. They are, after all, designed as a hunting bullet.

prm
October 4, 2008, 09:04 PM
The 44 will be a great choice. I have been carrying Second Generation .36 calibre Colts since the early 80s. I have more modern guns, and depending on what I am doing (and feeling like) on a particular day determines what I have with me. Yep - that is pre-ban elephant ivory. I started tricking my old friends out a few years back.

mike6975
October 5, 2008, 10:26 AM
i still like a snubnose with the option of putting a conversion cylinder it,makes a good under the pillow ,nite table,etc... type guns



mike

CraigC
October 5, 2008, 11:43 AM
You surely could do a lot worse than a .44 roundball! I know I've never seen armadillos explode like they do when a .54cal roundball at 1850fps hits `em!

This one is really cool and sets some wheels a turnin'!
http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36711&d=1223220190

mike6975
October 5, 2008, 12:01 PM
its an 1860 colt,with a vaquero thunderer grip frame



mike

CraigC
October 5, 2008, 04:24 PM
I was just thinking that a feller could procure a used 1860 rather inexpensively and I think the grip frame is not much more than a hundred bucks. A plug could be turned on my lathe for the rammer and held in place with a setscrew. Chop the barrel and install a dovetail front sight. Do either an original finish or have somebody like Accurate Plating refinish it in something interesting.

Then the long Army grip frame could be used on something else.

mike6975
October 5, 2008, 04:50 PM
thats a great idea my friend i'm a remmi lover but i fell for this lil guy,i would like to make this as a project myself,keep me posted on it or everyone else.



mike

mousegun
October 6, 2008, 11:12 AM
A point seldom brought up with respect to using a cap&ball revolver for home defense: black powder short guns are blowtorches! Anything flammable within ten feet of the muzzle is at risk. :eek: This will include loose clothing, drapes, bedclothes, carpet, the family cat, etc. And, if in protecting your life and goodies a fire results, insurance companies tend to be truculent with clients who use black powder inside the house. :(

So, are cap&ballers effective defense weapons? Yup. Are they a good substitute for a smokeless handgun of comparable caliber? Only if ya don't mind the possibility of making a complete ash of yourself fending off the goblins... :o

Just a thought...

mike6975
October 6, 2008, 11:18 AM
me myself would have a conversion cylinder in place of BP,to prevent such happenings.



mike:D

grymster2007
October 6, 2008, 12:31 PM
My '58 Remington plays a HD role, but currently sports an R&D .45 Colt cylinder, loaded with Hornady 255 Grain Lead Flat Nose cowboy ammunition. But I don't think I'd worry unduly, if it were loaded with round ball over 35gr BP instead.

noelf2
October 6, 2008, 01:54 PM
If using c&b for home defense, don't use a felt wad in there anywhere. They come out smoking and burning. Better chance of starting a fire than without it.

mike6975
October 6, 2008, 03:39 PM
thank you sir, thank you!!!

Respectfully,


mike:D

Tom2
October 7, 2008, 04:06 PM
SO what is the advantage, if you miss you can hide behind the smoke cloud? I know of a guy who used a .44 loaded with just wadding for noise and fire, he used to scare the chicken poop out of some guys who were trying to break into his garage at night-the blast and noise had them falling over each other to get away.

mike6975
October 8, 2008, 07:37 AM
that's hillarious:p,never thought of that one tom

Raider2000
October 8, 2008, 10:00 AM
I thank God that the only thing I've had to dispatch with any of my C&B Revolvers in my home was a Raccoon that found it's way into my Trailer.

mike6975
October 8, 2008, 10:13 AM
i'm from va. also richmond to be exact,what part are you from if you don't mind me askin?.


Respectfully,


mike

Raider2000
October 8, 2008, 11:01 AM
I now live just west of Ferdericksburg but I used to live in Prince George co.

chwingnut
October 8, 2008, 12:45 PM
I have been shooting C&Bs for about 12 years and that is all I use for home defense. I shot a running coyote with a 3rd gen colt army at about 30 yrds took it down in 1. Not to mention a few wild dogs, I trust it next to me at night.

mike6975
October 8, 2008, 07:22 PM
prince george ain't far from my area we used to play them every year in football,still fredericksburg is a ways away from me,the only time i visit it is when i have to submit plans for approval to the city,and it looks like a preety place,maybe we can get together one day and shoot?.:D

Respectfully,

mike

Raider2000
October 8, 2008, 07:49 PM
That'd be cool. :D

noelf2
October 9, 2008, 11:15 AM
Raider, Mike,

Me too?? :confused:

Raider2000
October 9, 2008, 11:38 AM
But ofcorse, be like the 3 Amegos.

Smokin_Gun
October 14, 2008, 05:12 AM
ChWingnut...I used to know a CB Radio operator that went by Wingnut... you be or been in the Mojave Desert? (Beastmaster)

SG

mike6975
October 14, 2008, 05:30 PM
u too noelf2,sorry it took so long to get to you



mike:D

chwingnut
October 19, 2008, 11:15 PM
Smokin Gun.. Nope. Just a nickname a girl gave me about 12 yrs ago and my friends kept using it. I'm from Texas.

Smokin_Gun
October 19, 2008, 11:37 PM
Alright ChWingnut...rite proud ta meet ya!

SG

chwingnut
October 20, 2008, 12:00 AM
Nice to meet you. I hope to communicate with you again sometime.

jhenry
October 21, 2008, 08:02 PM
Well, they're pretty effective manstoppers, always have been. Unless forced by necessity however, I would never opt for my cap and ball over any of my modern guns for self or home defense.

That being said I will relate 2 local self defense shootings I have some knowledge of. In the first, the aggressor was quite legitimately shot through the torso with a 1860 Army, black, and a round ball at about 10 feet. Passed all the way through and the guy was talking all the way to the ER. In the second case, the one brother claimed self defense, the jury thought otherwise. He is out now and on parole. The offender shot his drunk belligerant brother through the sternum with a .44 Remington, black, and a roundball at about 3 feet. Dropped him like a sack of potatoes. The shooter drug his brother's body under a bush so he would be in the shade, took his girlfriend out on the town and to a fancy hotel for the night and turned himself in the next AM at the PD.

Families are tight here in the Ozarks. You just don't leave your kin out in the sun. That wouldn't do at all. Folks would talk and such.

simonkenton
October 21, 2008, 08:38 PM
In the first, the aggressor was quite legitimately shot through the torso with a 1860 Army, black, and a round ball at about 10 feet. Passed all the way through and the guy was talking all the way to the ER.

He was talking, but was he walking?
Did he live?

sundance44s
October 22, 2008, 07:18 AM
JHenry ..that was thoughtful of the guy to drag his bro to a shady spot to bleed out ...LOL ..nice guy .:rolleyes:

jhenry
October 22, 2008, 03:30 PM
Simon Kenton, LOVE the name, great choice. I would bet you are an Allan Eckert fan.

Yes he lived and recovered OK. He was walking a little bit but he was kind of squinched up and moving away from the loud thing that hurt him.

nukeantz
November 28, 2009, 06:49 PM
I got a couple of boxes of .44 caliber/.451 diameter/ 137 grain swaged lead pistol balls and was wondering if anyone has any use for them?

Thanks,
Ken

Sulaco2
November 30, 2009, 12:37 AM
Old Wild BIll wrote that he considered the round ball a much better man stopper than a pointed bullet, and he had some small experiance in the matter. Brings question to mind: how long can you leave a BP revolver loaded? As in sitting loaded and not attended too, BP being corrosive and all or only when fired with the by products being the problem? BP is also hydroscopic (draws water out of the air somewhat) so in a gun chamber capped by lead and a wad at one end and a fire cap at the other seems like it might sit for a while and still work. Maybe cover both ends with grease?
Just wondering

simonkenton
November 30, 2009, 11:59 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v644/simonkenton/DSCN0540.jpg


I have kept this beauty loaded for 3 years. This is in the humid NC mountains and I don't use much ac, I draw the humid air through the house all night long in the summer using fans.
I kept the gun in a drawer, and after 3 years it fired fine, all 5 cylinders.
fffg Goex black powder, .457 round balls, CCI caps.
No wax or grease over the cap or ball, no felt wad.
I have an 1860 Colt Army that I have kept loaded for 2 years, same load, fired fine all five cylinders.
No corrosion was caused to the cylinders.

tpelle
November 30, 2009, 12:21 PM
I've seen it recommended that one can (very carefully, I might add) drip candle wax around the caps to waterproof them, as well as around the seated balls.

Not sure how comfortable I'd be with the concept of using a burning candle in immediate proximity to a loaded black powder firearm - just sayin', that's what I've read.

simonkenton
November 30, 2009, 01:14 PM
There was a guy on one of these forums who sealed the caps and balls with beeswax.
He got a little piece of beeswax and rolled it back and forth between his thumb and finger until it softened up and made a long little "roll."
Then he took this roll of beeswax and carefully put it on top of the ball, and packed it in where it sealed between the lead and the cylinder wall.
Then, he made little bitty "rolls" and sealed the caps.

This guy put the cylinder underwater for 30 minutes and the gun still fired, all 5 cylinders!
I would try the beeswax trick, it certainly couldn't hurt anything, but I am getting such good results with no sealant at all that I just haven't messed with it.

Also I don't take these revolvers out in the woods, they just stay in the drawer.

Delmar
December 4, 2009, 03:30 AM
I've seen it recommended that one can (very carefully, I might add) drip candle wax around the caps to waterproof them, as well as around the seated balls.

Not sure how comfortable I'd be with the concept of using a burning candle in immediate proximity to a loaded black powder firearm - just sayin', that's what I've read. With a large round candle, you can blow it out and the pool of wax will remain liquid for a while, so you wouldn't need to deal with an open flame. There are also ways to melt wax, that do not involve an open flame at all.

AdmiralB
December 4, 2009, 04:02 AM
BP is also hydroscopic (draws water out of the air somewhat)

Real BP isn't hygroscopic. The fired residue is, and some of the substitutes are, but not the real thing.

mykeal
December 4, 2009, 07:29 AM
Real BP isn't hygroscopic.
Yes, it is. It's just not as much so as the combustion byproducts. The saturation level is much lower.

OLDPUPPYMAX
December 5, 2009, 05:02 PM
Enjoy your BP pistols and Uberti Army pistols, just as I do. They are a hell of a lot of fun and shoot straight as can be. But for DEFENSE, buy a Glock.

Shootrj2003
December 16, 2009, 10:13 AM
the good thing about a black powder arm for defence is you get a smoke screen at the same time![LOL]

Andy Griffith
December 16, 2009, 10:38 AM
Enjoy your BP pistols and Uberti Army pistols, just as I do. They are a hell of a lot of fun and shoot straight as can be. But for DEFENSE, buy a Glock.

I thought tupperware was for leftovers in the refrigerator? :p
Self-loading pistols are just a fad of the times, and that Borchardt feller was just the initiator of the fad.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/smilies/chain.gif

Did I mention that the self-contained metallic cartridge is also a fad? ;)

Fingers McGee
December 16, 2009, 12:24 PM
self-loading pistols are just a fad of the times, and that Borchardt feller was just the initiator of the fad.

Did I mention that the self-contained metallic cartridge is also a fad?


+1

Ironheart
January 3, 2010, 10:11 PM
static

Raider2000
January 4, 2010, 05:28 AM
Ummm what are you talking about Ironheart?

simonkenton
January 4, 2010, 04:15 PM
???

Rachen
January 14, 2010, 03:50 PM
Whoah, this thread has just entered the event horizon of a parallel-universe conduit somewhere in Delta Quadrant.

"Engineer! Fire up the pulse plasma thrusters to full yield! Get the ship out of this zone, now!"

Anyways, back on topic here. I rely on my two Pietta 1858's for defense anywhere. I trust them even more than I trust the new things that use nitro. I think that both Elmer Keith and Montana legend Ed McGivern used BP guns to achieve their world records in aerial target shooting. Mr. Keith adopted a .44 Magnum only much later on. All of his previous competitions were done with a .36 cap and ball. That was in the 1920s and 30s I believe.

robhof
January 14, 2010, 07:49 PM
I keep my stainless ROA loaded in my gunroom when I'm at home and would feel well armed against any intruder. When the ammo shortage was peaking, it became my most used gun and I'm now quite proficient with it and with 2 spare cylinders, I was shooting 18 round groups betwen loadings.

mousegun
January 14, 2010, 08:49 PM
How did you go about getting
spare cylinders for your ROA?

Just curious.

mykeal
January 14, 2010, 11:10 PM
Send it back to Ruger along with lots and lots of money.

mousegun
January 15, 2010, 11:38 AM
Hmmm...
I picked up a spare online a while back. Fits perfectly.
Was told that Ruger won't fit a new cylinder to the ROA
without the old one sent in. Thought about "forgetting" the
cylinder at the range and sending the gun back for a refit.
Didn't seem exactly honest, though.

mykeal
January 15, 2010, 12:56 PM
Was told that Ruger won't fit a new cylinder to the ROA
without the old one sent in. Thought about "forgetting" the
cylinder at the range and sending the gun back for a refit.
Didn't seem exactly honest, though.
You were told correctly - they won't. And they're expensive. You need not worry about sending in the gun with the cylinder installed; they'll send it back refurbished and the new cylinder fitted. Don't know why you'd send it in without the cylinder, but it's your choice.

mousegun
January 15, 2010, 06:47 PM
Guess I missed making my own point.

I was told by a lady at Ruger that they would not install a spare cylinder in the ROA or send a replacement for a lost or damaged cylinder without sending in the gun. She said specifically that if a gun was received for cylinder replacement they would keep the old cylinder after fitting the new. That was why I connived to send in a cylinderless gun at the time -- about four years ago.

Liability issues were the reason I was given for this policy.
Bless all the lovely lawyers.

Obviously the policy was not in effect for your ROA.

Gator_Weiss
January 15, 2010, 11:20 PM
Any attacker that gets blasted in the chest or belly with a black powder round, sure as hell isnt going to go too far. In fact, the attacker will probably be on his ass right where he was shot, praying for an ambulance to come rapidly.

A .44 caliber round ball with a cloud of burned black powder behind it is a horrendously terrible thing for anyone to run into! For close range work inside of a home or at a moderate distance outside, it will most probably be a one-stop-shot. Heavy, soft lead, slow moving, bone shattering, meat grinding impact is the trademark of the round ball.

The conical probably cuts and clips more than it smashes. But lets be honest; do you really think any attacker is going to know the difference if a conical or a round ball enters his chest or stomach? The conical will probably maintain more energy and velocity for an extended distance shot. It might even fly slightly straighter than the roundball.

Both the conical or the round ball will stop an attacker with a solid torso hit at short range. That is why for hundreds of years people have been throwing conical and roundball at their enemies out of black powder operated machinery; because it sure as hell works!

Cartridges facilitate rapid loading. You dont always need a cartridge gun to stop an attacker. Black powder guns work.

[B]One question, will black powder store for long term inside of a revolver cylinder without damaging the inside of the cylinder?

Many pieces kept for defensive purposes probably have a tendency to be left in a desk drawer, or under a bed, or under a mattress, or in the glovebox or console of a car or truck for very long extended periods of time. Will the black powder store inside of the chamber for very long term without damaging the interior surfaces, flash hole, etc, and will a percussion cap sitting on top of a nipple for an extended period of time begin to corrode the nipple and flash hole?

Where we do get an advantage with a cartridge is that primer, flash hole, and powder are all stored in the cartridge case, which can be disposable, and they dont contact the interior surfaces of the weapon until they are detonated. The cartridge case - among other things - acts as a storage container and physical barrier between the propellant components and the interior surfacaes of the weapon.

Can we leave a black powder piece loaded for long time periods?

mykeal
January 15, 2010, 11:35 PM
One question, will black powder store for long term inside of a revolver cylinder without damaging the inside of the cylinder?...Will the black powder store inside of the chamber for very long term without damaging the interior surfaces, flash hole, etc,
Yes. The ingredients in black powder (which is technically a mixture) are all very stable and do not react with iron or steel. It will absorb moisture but retains it's characteristics without degrading if dried out.
and will a percussion cap sitting on top of a nipple for an extended period of time begin to corrode the nipple and flash hole?
Depends on when the cap was made. Actually, any cap you can buy today will not corrode the nipple over the long term.
Where we do get an advantage with a cartridge is that primer, flash hole, and powder are all stored in the cartridge case, which can be disposable, and they dont contact the interior surfaces of the weapon until they are detonated. The cartridge case - among other things - acts as a storage container and physical barrier between the propellant components and the interior surfacaes of the weapon.
There would be an advantage if any of those components reacted with the gun material, but they don't, so there's no advantage.
Can we leave a black powder piece loaded for long time periods?
Absolutely. There are many anecdotes about Civil War era guns being found that were still able to fire their loads. The only reason not to leave your black powder gun loaded for an extended period is that you really have an obligation to be proficient with any weapon you intend to use, so you should, in fact, must, practice with it frequently. Loading it up and leaving it lay around is called negligence, not with respect to the gun, but with respect to one's shooting skills with that particular gun.

redman107
January 15, 2010, 11:37 PM
I keep my uberti 1858 remmy loaded all the time in my house for self dense. I usually shoot it every two or three weeks but have kept it loaded for 3 or 4 months at a time with no misfires. I have modern firearms in my home but this pistol is so dead on accurate that for me it seems like a fine weapon of choice to defend my home with. I like the fact you can order these fine weapons and have them shipped through the mail without going through any kind of background check.

bamaranger
January 16, 2010, 02:43 AM
Writer Ed Sanow prepared an article for Guns & Ammo a few years back in which he shot C & B revs into ballistic gelatin. The round ball was the distinct winner in the cavity test, the conical in penetration.

Sanow then compared the wound cavity's to modern smokeless calibers and loads. Very cool article. If there's an interest I'll try and dig it up if nobody else has it at their finger tips.

BTW , shocker....Wild Bill's .36 roundball was the equal of a hot .380 hollowpoint, if you believe gelatin. And the .44's were head and shoulders above the .36 by a wide margin. The big .44's, dragoons and Walkers with their hefty powder charges, were formidable, only recently superceded by modern magnums. (so says Sanow)

Raider2000
January 16, 2010, 06:51 AM
I agree with mykeal 100%.
Like I said earlier in this thread, I usually keep one of my C&B revolvers loaded not just as a HD weapon but because I tend to shoot mine a lot more than I do my modern firearms & I'll take one with me when I check traps or do some scouting on the club property.

Shoot as often as you can to be proficient with them.
Keep them clean, dry & loaded properly.
These C&B Revolvers can in fact be as reliable as a modern firearm.

I'd like to see that Article by Ed Sanow

simonkenton
January 16, 2010, 09:17 AM
bamaranger I would like to see that article by Ed Sanow.

bamaranger
January 16, 2010, 06:51 PM
Here's the best I can do now on the article. I found it in the second magazine binder I looked in!

I initially advised Guns and Ammo but was mistaken. (hey, gimmie a break, its from 11 yrs ago)

It was HANDGUNs Feb 98 issue. I have the entire article but not sure how to post it.

Synopsis: the big .44 's yielded 85-87% one shot stops
the army .44's came in at 67
the Ruger at 79
a army sheriff at 59
All these were w/ roundballs and 30-60 grs of 3F

He goes on to equate the big 44's w/ 41 mag or hot 44 spl.
It's a thorough write up, based off the gelatin studies he and others were conductng at the time. There are also comparisons for .31's (30%, .22 lrhp)and .36's (.380 JHP, 59%)

I'm not sure how to take this any further on line. Kind of a dinosaur tech wise. I could photocopy and mail or something I guess .

I also have an article from the 1974Gun Digest, where Rick HACKER shot PPC type targets against the clock for a handling/speed evaluation w/ c & b's.

mykeal
January 16, 2010, 09:49 PM
Actually you can't take it any further online. A magazine article is copyrighted, so you cannot reproduce it without permission. You CAN quote it with attribution, as you have correctly done, but to copy it as a facsimile and publish that copy you need written permission.

Gator_Weiss
January 16, 2010, 11:54 PM
Something to remember. When a bullet hits a bone, the character of the projectile and impact changes immediately. Gelatin is not much of a comparison for a human body.

Anyone hit center to high in the chest area with any .36 or .44 or larger ball, will most likely go down. Especially if the projectile collides with bone on the way in. The ball will flatten out and expand out and continue the journey on into the chest cavity, most probably with a wider diameter and pushing a bunch of bone splinters and fragments into the cavity.

Gelatin testing or not, we all KNOW that a chest hit with a slow moving big bore projectile spells instant critical condition for anyone on the receiving end. 300 feet per second is believed to be the minimum it will take to stop or kill with a chest hit at close range. 800 feet per second certainly stops or kills. Anything over that really, really, stops or kills. I wouldnt worry about gelatin testing. There is plenty of gun there to do the job.

Gator_Weiss
January 16, 2010, 11:57 PM
In an all steel, would it be the Army or the Navy series in the Colt cut?

Does Remington beat them all in terms of strength?

Smokin_Gun
January 17, 2010, 04:29 AM
In an all steel, would it be the Army or the Navy series in the Colt cut?



I'dsay both the '60 & '61 along with the '51 are the same in strength...jus' the Newer models are a hair more refined with a couple changes.

Does Remington beat them all in terms of strength?



I say yes the Remington does exceed those Colts in strength, in my opinion...others findings may differ.
;)

mykeal
January 17, 2010, 07:05 AM
With a nod of respect to the Remington 'mafia', I find no significant difference in strength between the 58 Remington and the 51 Navy/60 Army Colt designs. Colt's smaller torque box is more than compensated for by the massive top element (the arbor) as compared to the larger Remington box but smaller elements.

One has to go to the Ruger Old Army to find any real increase in strength in bp revolvers. The Starr and Rogers & Spencer designs mimic the Remington and do have slightly larger elements, so they could be argued to be stronger, and I have no doubt one could measure the difference. But all in all I don't think it's really significant.

BUT - why does it matter? All are plenty strong enough to do their jobs; any 'strength' beyond that is of academic interest only.

mousegun
January 17, 2010, 12:46 PM
Which one is "stronger"? Depends on what ya mean by strength...

First, there's the catastrophic sense. Which one is most likely to blow up on firing. On first look the Remington design looks beefier. But the element most likely to let go from pressure is the cylinder. Either one is vulnerable in that category. They both have cylinders and, with the exception of the original Walkers, I haven't seen a preponderance of reports either way.

Second, there's the small parts breakage. A broken hammer spring trigger/bolt spring, cones, hand spring, hammer cam, sights, latches, etc., Any one will effectively put a revolver out of commission right now. Both designs are pretty much in parity here.

Third, how long does the gun take to "shoot loose"? Here, the Colt is the obvious loser. Remingtons don't have an arbor fixed into the back of the frame and wedge slots in the arbor and barrel. The Colt is somewhat adjustable against a moderate amount of wear, but ultimately it will need a gunsmith sooner than the Remington. The up side for the Colt is that a pocket full of parts may get a bit more mileage out of the Colt. A spare barrel, wedge and arbor key might get a cowpoke by for a while. But not forever.

Hey, Colt shooters: ever shoot yer barrel down range?

mykeal
January 17, 2010, 06:34 PM
ultimately it will need a gunsmith sooner than the Remington.
I see no data supporting such an allegation.

Hey, Colt shooters: ever shoot yer barrel down range?
No, nor do I know anybody who has.

sundance44s
January 17, 2010, 06:54 PM
The rigid barrel - frame cylinder alignment of the solid rame Remington contributes to consistent ballistics and excellent accuracy over the Colt design of the era ..

Thus to keep the Colt shooting as well as the Remington it would take some Gunsmithing .
I shoot both types ..and this is my experience ....it is a fact .

Smokin_Gun
January 17, 2010, 08:34 PM
No, nor do I know anybody who has.

You have forgotten about my 1860 Army Pietta .44 that the wedge shot out and the locating pins sheared off the frame with 28gr of 777 ffg on the third shot?
:rolleyes:

mousegun
January 17, 2010, 10:59 PM
ultimately it will need a gunsmith sooner than the Remington.
I see no data supporting such an allegation.
I see some in the post just following yours. I'm not trying to allege anything. Look around. A sprinkling of common sense helps.

Hey, Colt shooters: ever shoot yer barrel down range?
No, nor do I know anybody who has.

..Is it me, or is the air in here a little close?

arcticap
January 18, 2010, 06:07 AM
Which one is "stronger"? Depends on what ya mean by strength...

If by strength you mean which is the stronger shooter then it's the Colts.
The looser tolerances of the Colts allow them to be fired for a longer period of time without interruption from fouling.

And also if by strength you mean which is the more powerful, then that would also be the Colts since the Walker and the Dragoon have a larger powder capacity.

For sure there's different ways to measure how much strength a gun design really has! ;)

mykeal
January 18, 2010, 06:20 AM
deleted as not worth the effort.

sundance44s
January 18, 2010, 06:51 AM
One thing for sure , most of us here own both types .
So if you own both and shoot both often useing the same powder charges .
It will not take long to see the difference between the two design .
The Remingtons biggest falt if the early fouling of the cylinder ..Binding
Simple fix takes no more than 30 seconds to remove the cylinder and wipe the pin .
The Colt is prone to eat cap fragments and jam up the works .... (get your tools out )
They will both shoot loose in time with heavy use ....BUT as the Remington shoots loose it only gets better ...less prone to cylinder binding .
as the Colt shoots loose the POA will change ..unless you do a little gunsmithing to tighten things up .
If you haven`t noticed these differences ...you aren`t shooting your revolvers very often .
I shoot one of mine every weekend ....

I also remember when Smokingun broke the pins on his Colt shooting 777 powder ...I`ve shot my Remingtons with the same charge of 777 many times and never had a problem ....but I wouldn`t use it in my Colts .

Go ahead Mykeal post your findings ........we know you are a shooter collector .......your results will be interesting .

Raider2000
January 18, 2010, 07:34 AM
Sundance44s, I tend to agree with you in your info, both Colt's & Remington Designs are very solid revolvers with their own faults & it is up to the shooter to accept those faults as they are & learn to shoot them accordingly.

shafter
January 18, 2010, 07:36 AM
I think this thread is going way off course.

I think it would likely work just fine for self defense. I wouldn't want it for hunting or 4-legged threats though.

sundance44s
January 18, 2010, 08:28 AM
In all fareness to both designs ..there is a weakness in the Remington design you never hear much about and might not notice unless you do alot of shooting ........this may or may not be a problem with the originals but in my testing all of the Itailian made Remingtons .
The poor hardness of the cylinder pin allows for gas cutting on the pin where the face of the cylinder meets the frame window .
I have had one cut completely into on one of my older Remingtons and had to replace the pin .
this pic is of one that has shot less than 500 rounds .
http://i47.tinypic.com/aw22ck.jpg

I admit I do shoot my Remingtons more than twice as much as I do my Colts ...but I have never noticed a problem with the Arbor being gas cut this bad .

Raider2000
January 18, 2010, 08:35 AM
I think this thread is going way off course.

I think it would likely work just fine for self defense. I wouldn't want it for hunting or 4-legged threats though.

If it's the size of a Bear then you're right but a mountain lion or smaller animal that may become a threat while in the woods then they are perfectly suited for that defence as well.

Raider2000
January 18, 2010, 08:38 AM
Sundance44s:
He he, I've made it a normal occurence to replace my cylinder pins on my Remington copies about once every 1500 - 2000 rounds.

sundance44s
January 18, 2010, 08:49 AM
Raider have you ever tried to harden one of the cylinder pins before useing it .
This is something I mean to try ...but the price of the pins isn`t that expenicve and its been easyer to just to replace instead of addressing the problem with a fix .
Raider you are right one with my findings on the cylinder pin replacement on my Remingtons ...that is real life info ...facts ..
After all the Italian made guns are made of soft steel ...and we accept it .
I have never owned one of the Spanish made Remingtons ...but have heard they are made from harder steel .
Smokingun owns 2 of them and can probally answer this question for us .

Guys we could start a new thread on this subject and probally should ...
alot of us here do alot of shooting these cap & ballers and know when loaded right can be as dependable as a cartridge revolver ...so I chose this thread for this posting ...
If it were all I had ...I would have no problem defending myself with any of my Colts or Remington cap & ball revolvers .
The thing is ...if it is your choice ...shoot often ...learn the gun ...

Gator_Weiss
January 18, 2010, 10:23 AM
I am looking at an Italian, color case hardened frame, new in the box, unfired, at one of half-dozen favorite gun shops for $325.00 out the door. Any input on the price?

sundance44s
January 18, 2010, 10:55 AM
Gator ...one question ...who made the gun you are looking at and is it the 1858 Remington model.
if it is the 1858 Remington.
If it is Uberti made that is a good price . Uberti made price for that one is around 350.00 most places .
If it is made my Pietta ..You can beat that price at Cabelas .
Cabelas does not sell the Uberti made 1858 Remington ...only the Pietta made .
The Pietta made is 319.00 at Cabelas

Rachen
January 21, 2010, 02:00 PM
People also ask the question if a BP gun can be loaded indefintely. Of course it can. BP is stable, and as long as the chambers are sealed, nothing can deteriorate BP. After all, black powder is a type of biomass fuel, made of all organic, all "green" ingredients. Unlike smokeless, there are no chemical bonds that can break down over time. I have left my 1858s loaded for almost a year at max, and they worked fine.

Which reminds me, when I was living in Shanghai, there is a general purpose antibiotic called Cefradine which everybody uses for, from mild bronchial infections and ear infections to cholera. Cefradine is sold over the counter and has no expiration date on it. Ten year old packages which are sealed and protected from sunlight, water, etc... are just as effective as newer production

Gator_Weiss
January 26, 2010, 06:10 PM
To answer your question -

I am looking at a .44 Walker Colt Revolver - color case hardened steel frame, new in the box, unfired, at 325.00. It is the Italian. Feels solid enough. Heavy sucker, lots of powder capacity in the cylinder.

ANOTHER QUESTION:

I was told by a Ranger that the Walker Revolver was actually designed to be carried in a holster that attached only to the saddle, (not the hip) and Rangers carried more than one Walker Revolver on the saddle. One Ranger battle tactic was to ride forward as a squad, firing revolvers rapidly as possible to decimate an objective. I am told that Some of the Rangers had as many as 4 Walker Revolvers attached to holsters on the saddle. Some Rangers favored shotguns over riflles in addition to the Walker revolvers.

Until repeating cartridge rifles were available in number, the Walker Revolver supplied some hard hitting rapid fire power. Ten rangers firing 12 shots of rapid 44. caliber fire at the same target probably do lots of damage. With 120 lead balls flying at them, the enemy either died immediatley or ran like hell from the scene.

THE QUESTION: Did Mr. Walker design that elongated cylinder in order to load TWO balls into each chamber, or did he do it to provide more BLACK POWDER behind a single ball or slug?

simonkenton
January 26, 2010, 06:26 PM
You know, I never thought of that.
Two balls in one cylinder. That would be a fantastic load in a close range gun battle.
How many grains of powder would fit under two balls in the Walker?

fineredmist
January 26, 2010, 06:30 PM
Sam Colt and Capt. Walker designed the WALKER to fire conical bullets as the primary load and round ball as a alternative load. The WALKER will hold approx. 55 - 60 grains of powder with either bullet. The WALKER was the most powerful handgun in the world till the introduction of the .45acp cartridge. The WALKER is probably the most interesting BP revolver you will ever fire. When you watch one being fired you get the impression that it is brutal to the shooter but it is not. The distintive sound, the muzzle flash and the smoke make it what it is, a hand cannon. The 4.5 lb. weight and the overall design reduce the recoil to .38 spl. level. Once you shoot one you will want one. There is not another handgun that compares to THE WALKER and you can take that from a 2 WALKER owner.

Raider2000
January 27, 2010, 04:12 PM
Sam Colt and Capt. Walker designed the WALKER to fire conical bullets as the primary load and round ball as a alternative load. The WALKER will hold approx. 55 - 60 grains of powder with either bullet. The WALKER was the most powerful handgun in the world till the introduction of the .45acp cartridge.

The Walker revolver was the most powerful revolver till the .357 Magnum cartridge was developed & used in handguns not the .45ACP.

Walker is capable of upwords of 1200fps. 455 ft. lbs. with a ball.
.45 ACP is only 835 fps. 355 ft. lbs. with a standard military ball load.

fineredmist
January 27, 2010, 04:57 PM
I stand corrected, thank you for clearing that up.

Smokin .50
January 28, 2010, 01:03 PM
At the shop that I purchase my revolvers, the Walker in the case is currently selling for $360.00 or more, so the $325.00 price tag is very fair! The revolver was imported by Taylor's from Uberti. To my knowledge, Pietta doesn't make the Walker, but I could be wrong.

As far as strength, how they hold-up, whether they shoot loose or not: After almost 1,000 rounds through mine, the only problem I had was a cap got stuck in the works cause I wasn't watching it good enough. I win competitions at two different clubs that my son and I belong to with my Walker, and it's out-of-the-box to boot! The 52 grains of 3Fg Goex, a wonder-wad and a .454 Hornady ball are the winning combination.

I think that my Colts are stronger than my Remmy's--they hold more powder and don't have tiny little pins in the loading levers that snap at the worst possible time. At one of the clubs that my son and I belong to we've seen it with our own two eyes...the Remmy is out of service and the Colt Dragoon keeps making noise!

My Walker is so accurate that I can reliably hit the lid of a tin of caps that's been glued to a target backer with the target range of 25 yards.

Have a good time making smoke!

long rider
January 28, 2010, 02:43 PM
Lets see how good your walker holds up after
14 years of shooting like my old remmy, my
remmys loading lever never drops after a shot
like the walker does, its well known for that,
i would take a rem over a walker anyday +
you can load a remmy in a sec, no need to
hammer out the wedge to change out cylinders.

Smokin .50
January 28, 2010, 03:33 PM
Sir,

Although I new here, I'm by no means someone to pick an argument with.

My Walker will last a long time, as I take good care of it.

My Walker's lever has been adjusted so it doesn't drop with every shot!

Have you ever heard of the "New York Reload" Sir? While you're busy changing cylinders with a stuck center pin, I just reach for my 3rd Model Dragoon with 40 grains of 3Fg in each chamber and keep on blastin! Then out comes my 1860 Army with another fast 6 the easy way!

You sound like someone stuck in a time warp where only your way is the correct way. I didn't single you out to create a problem, so why pick a fight with the new guy? Do you work hard at being obnoxious, or does it just come naturally?

mykeal
January 28, 2010, 06:54 PM
Hi, Dave.

It's the old Remington vs Colt game. There are those amongst the Remington crowd that must take every opportunity to reiterate the old "Remingtons are stronger" and "You can change the cylinder faster on a Remington" mantra. The facts don't seem to matter. You can whack them on the head all you want but they just keep poking back up; kind of like the old Whack a Mole game.

Of course, there are Colt fan counterparts out there...

Major 2
January 28, 2010, 07:12 PM
Before there was Ford VS Chevy

It was Colt VS Remy....

I have one 1860 that was issued to the 5 Iowa Cavalry ( lettered )
it is tight as a drum..has a tad of timing issue if cocked slowly, but cock it with athority and it's vault tight.
I have a Second Gen. Black Powered Series I bought new in 1978,
Thousand of C&B rounds...
3 years ago I dropped in a Kenny Howell Conversion it to shoot Cowboy Loads 45 Colt.... some were around 150 Long Colts every month...10 month a year.
Only issue a broke bolt spring twice is 32 years.
And another 1860 I bought used about 19 years ago... still C&B and several thousand rounds as well...
Same for 2nd Gen Navy.

I also have one of the Uberti Forged Frame factory conversions..
45LC and it is also one tough shooter.

Smokin .50
January 28, 2010, 10:17 PM
mykeal,

Greetings and salutations. I'm still laughing at the "Whack-A-Mole" remark.

If our paths ever cross, the coffee is on me!

My 12" Buffalo is a good shooter as well. Do I get points for that, or only if I use conversion cylinders with hand-loaded wimpy SASS smokeless ammo that only has to meet a power factor of 60?

Smokin_Gun
January 29, 2010, 01:47 AM
I have Remmy's too!

Welcome Smokin .50 ... good too know you too are a Rem Man who likes Colts too.
:O)

Smokin .50
January 29, 2010, 08:11 AM
Yeah,

If it uses black powder we just love it! Got my 20 year-old Eagle Scout infected several years and shoots ago! Sometimes he beats all of the adults too!:eek::D. Bought him a Remmy first, then a 1860 Army Colt for last Christmas. Got to shoot the Colt when he was on winter break earlier this month. A high score put a big smile on his face, and I just love to watch him shoot! We compete head-to-head during the regular League shoots at a local club's black powder league on a monthly basis (when he's home from college).

Thanks again for the proper welcome!

Dave
Smokin .50

noelf2
February 4, 2010, 03:18 PM
I like both designs also. I have had the loading lever pin issue with one of my remis (a target model). Still love the gun though. My brass frame .31 baby dragoon has shaken a little loose over the years, and the wedge is a pain, but I still love the gun. I didn't know why I love shooting these guns until I saw The Matrix. "It's the smell !!!"

Ironheart
February 6, 2010, 01:37 PM
Be careful with shooting "just the wadding" I used a wad of paper towel and blasted it 3/4 of the way through a phone book from around a foot away

arcticap
February 7, 2010, 01:52 AM
That must have been one of those extra tough "Brawny" paper towels! :D

Ironheart
March 3, 2014, 11:09 AM
chwingnut Are you sure the " WILD DOGS" you are shooting are not the extremely endangered Red Wolf" there is only less than 100 out in the wild today they are a little smaller than a coyote & are unfortunately mistaken for them very often they both share the same habitat :D

noelf2
March 3, 2014, 11:42 AM
Wow, talk about resurrecting an old post. Just a thought folks, make sure you don't over write old pictures with new ones. Check out post #89... Sundance44s, you devil you.... :D

rodwhaincamo
March 3, 2014, 12:59 PM
I was wondering where his pistol was! :D

On a side note, having read through the whole thing, I must disagree with a common statement about the power of a Walker.

"The Walker revolver was the most powerful revolver till the .357 Magnum cartridge was developed & used in handguns not the .45ACP.

Walker is capable of upwords of 1200fps. 455 ft. lbs. with a ball.
.45 ACP is only 835 fps. 355 ft. lbs. with a standard military ball load."

A Walker only has this type of power if either loaded light or with the weaker variety of powder.

I'm not sure what was available or used during the late 1840's, but I do know that during the Civil War the powder used in the pistols was more akin to Swiss, and often 4F.

With my stock ROA I can easily surpass that power level. With a reduced charge a 255 grn bullet nearly hits 500 ft/lbs. And from the side by side testing I've seen Triple 7, Swiss, and Olde Eynsford all give very similar results when comparing charges by volume.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP_dwo2nThA

Doc Hoy
March 3, 2014, 07:21 PM
A true cap and ball revolver guy loves them all.

DD4lifeusmc
March 5, 2014, 09:57 AM
im buying an 1851 in 44 soon since A. I want one B. I need a hunting sidearm. is there any expanding ammo or hunting rounds i can use or just the regular old round ball?
_____------------------------------------------------
1851 colt style is nice, but too small a grip for me. I have one.
Also have several 1858 Remingtons and a Walker and a Dragoon.
I love the 5.5 remington as a more or less daily carry, conceals nicely.
I like the oomph of the Walker but way too big and heavy
The Dragoon being bigger then the Remmie and smaller than the Walker
I feel would be a better sidearm for hunting than the 1851 or 1860 or the Remmie. But each his own.
As to bullets.
I cast and sell a 195 grain semi wad cutter design, that has a rebated base
making it somewhat easier to load than the Lee 45-200. I also cast and sell them also, Along with wads, and beeswax and a bunch of other accessories
-------
The 195 and 45-200 both seem to expand about the same,
I have my target in front of hay bales 4 high and 2 deep. I've dug both out of the dirt behind, and I'd say they are about equal with each other and a round ball. Course they are about 50 gr heavier than a RB.

DD4lifeusmc
March 5, 2014, 10:07 AM
Guys how do you do the quotes here. I haven't figured it out.

---------------------
I'd opt for the 137-143 gr Round ball myself...that's all I use in soft lead form.

And I do still keep a .44 1858 Rem or 2 loaded for home Defence, close at hand. They worked before the 1911 .45 Autos were around, so I guess it's jus' how much faith you have in your Rev, thumb, and Finger.

Yup there is a loaded 12ga Ithica Police D.S. in the safe and a Ruger .357mag also both loaded...but it's a Rem that sleeps with one eye open within arms reach.

SG
-------------
Locked in the safe isn't of much use.
Revolver two: one butt sticking out edge of mattress to side, other under where head board would be. The shot gun at night while sleeping is within arms reach of bed, but is not visible to an intruder.
In the day, the ones not needed and I'm not home, then locked in safe.
A gun is a tool. If not handy right at hand or not loaded then it's basically useless.

Hawg
March 5, 2014, 09:26 PM
ROA, Colt, Remy ASOASF
A true cap and ball revolver guy loves them all.

Nope, not so.

North East Redneck
March 5, 2014, 09:34 PM
:D Hawg hating on the Rugers. I like mine, but less and less. '58 wins for me. Like me some Colts too.......