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Smith66
September 15, 2008, 01:37 AM
Well, it finally happened. I grew up around guns and hunting, and I was taught by several people who always drilled saftey into my head. Gun saftey has always been rule number one with me, and by this time it's become an ingrained habbit....or so I thought. After shooting my G17 today, I cleaned it when I got home, and put the empty mag back into the well. About two hours ago, I went upstairs to bed, G17 in tow. I keep that pistol in the night stand in close proximity to a partially loaded magazine, and rail mounted light. Before I'd put everything away, my phone rang, I got up to answer it, and then came back to bed and the open night stand. I took the glock, and what I thought was the empty magazine and put it into the mag well. I used the slide lock release to drop the slide, and as per usual, pulled the trigger to put the spring at rest. Instead of the harmless "click" of dry firing a glock, the pistol BARKED and I put a DPX through my bedroom ceiling. Needless to say, I couldn't hear very well, and I'm still a little bit shook up. There is a round .355 hole in the plaster above my bed, the room smells like gunpowder, and I'm really thankful that I had the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. I know things could've been worse, but my self confidence has been shaken. My training over the years has always emphasized the basic points of gun saftey. For example, always visually inspect the chamber!!! I'm kicking myself for being so blatantly careless right now, because I feel like the mistakes I made were so simple to avoid. I shouldn't have had an empty magazine and a loaded one within 10 feet of each other, and knowing that I had both at the same time, I should've made absolutley sure that I put the empty one in the the magazine well before I pulled the trigger. Thank God, the bottom line tonight is that no one was hurt (besides the ringing in my ears), and I am born anew in my comitment to gun saftey. Don't ever get complacent folks, or it could happen to you!

Smith66

HiBC
September 15, 2008, 02:20 AM
No need for me to preach to the choir.
We are all human beings.A wake up call can happen.While you are "debriefing" yourself,you were successful in having your muzzle pointed in a safe direction.
Thats good

BillCA
September 15, 2008, 02:21 AM
First, a good post and owning up to your own stupidity is a good thing.

Second: Welcome to your first "humility lesson". Make it your last!

But... where did the round go? Did it exit the exterior roof and fly off to hurt someone? Damage a car? Land in some swimming pool? Since your place has an "upstairs", I'm presuming no one lives above your bedroom. If so, did you check on their well being?

Now, in the aftermath of this incident, I hope you will change your procedures.
First, lock the slide back and make sure the gun itself is unloaded.
Then lower the slide and release the striker tension if you must.
Lastly load the correct magazine.

Your pennance:
1. For ten minutes you must walk around the house with your Glock empty, slide back, grip up, held over your head while chanting "All guns are always loaded! Never put your finger on the trigger until ready to shoot!" -- and be sure to take at least one trip via the stairs every minute.

2. Before securing your weapon at night you will verify the chamber is empty before closing the slide. Then chant "All guns are always loaded" before physically inspecting the magazine to be empty before inserting it. Then put it away and let the striker compress the *$@# spring and don't worry about it.

Oh... and I've BTDT and had the ringing in my ears to prove it too. :D

shiky
September 15, 2008, 02:47 AM
i've never understood that whole "release the spring tension" bull****. springs don't wear while compressed or decompressed. its the action of compressing and decompressing that wears the spring. simple physics. don't "ease the tension" and this never happens.

ChewToy
September 15, 2008, 02:58 AM
Here's another remedy if you will...

A new Glock striker spring = $3, and it takes a Loooooooooong time to wear one out like 10,000 rounds. So what's the point?

gvf
September 15, 2008, 03:12 AM
Sorry that happened but that no one was hurt. Don't quite get the slide sequence but it's unimportant. I get the picture.

I ccw my one Semi-Auto: Full Size Glock .45 Gap. Rather than fiddle with slides, checking if there's a live round etc., test-trigger-pull, I drop the slide open at he range at end of shooting, really check it there for live rounds, and test-trigger it pointing right at the range. Leaves the range, locked slide open no mag in it, is taken home cleaned, a loaded mag put in, and the loaded gun goes bye-bye in the safe. It comes out again when I carry it, then back in the safe loaded. And to the range the same: loaded. There I switch to range ammo, and do all the checking downrange. In other words, at home I handle it as little as possible. It's not in the safe loaded to be available, but to locked up and not used.

I keep my revolver loaded and partially accessible (my own reasons), and feel 10 times as comfortable checking that, just swing out the cylinder. Want to walk with it from loading area to your bedroom? Just open the cylinder with a finger between it and the gun, point the gun down, and walk into the bedroom. Gun can't fire. So I suggest if you want a gun nearby, you're going to be moving around at all with it, or loading, unloading, whatever, get a revolver. Much simpler, easier to load and unload, check, make safe etc.` If you want to handle one gun at home, a wheelie avoids the type of accident you had, and many others - simple and safe. Good home gun. CCW the Glock of course if you like as well. But the revolver becomes the at home weapon. My suggestion.

JohnKSa
September 15, 2008, 05:17 AM
You describe a very common ND scenario involving handling a gun, an interruption and then a return to handling the gun without carefully checking it first and/or "getting into the proper frame of mind for safely handling a gun".

Most NDs are the result of intentionally pulling the trigger because the person believes the gun is unloaded or won't fire for some other reason.

It's an interesting paradox that the practice of leaving a gun unloaded (often for safety reasons) can actually contribute to having an ND as in your case.

GLP Standard
September 15, 2008, 05:45 AM
This is why I'm so careful when handling my firearms. I follow all the simple rules. I never put finger inside the trigger guard until I'm ready to shoot. I never point the weapon at anything unless I intend to kill it (except in training when I'm 100% sure the weapon is unloaded)...etc, etc. I don't want to say it won't happen, because it can happen to anyone, but I seriously doubt I'll have a negligent discharge as careful as I am. When I'm about to handle my firearm, I check the chamber, then check it again, and sometimes even a third time to ensure it's not loaded. Even if it was sitting in my safe, and I know it was unloaded when I put it away, and I was the last one to touch it or have access to it, I still double check it. I'm just too afraid of having an ND, therefore I'm overly cautious.

Bottom line is, get in the habit of ALWAYS checking your firearms chamber to ensure its not loaded before handling your weapon. If it goes out of your sight for more than 5 seconds, check it!

nate45
September 15, 2008, 06:06 AM
It's an interesting paradox that the practice of leaving a gun unloaded (often for safety reasons) can actually contribute to having an ND as in your case.

I'm not advocating this, it is just that JohnKSa's above comment made me think of it.

Elmer Keith always kept all of his handguns loaded, that way he, his family members and friends, always treated them as if they were loaded.

I'm guilty of pointing and dry firing my revolvers and pistols in the house, which I also don't recommend, however every time I put the weapon down and then pick it up again, I check to make sure it is empty.

Years and years ago, I was drawing and dry firing my Beretta Model 1951 at a mirror. I was getting ready to leave and loaded it, about that time I got a phone call from a young lady; and was on the phone for quite some time. Then I went back to my bedroom, picked up my Beretta holstered it, drew it and fired a 115 grain Win Silver-Tip Hp through the antique lead glass mirror.:eek: Fortunately the mirror was the only one hurt.

I don't expect it was to hard to see where that story was headed.:) I had completely forgotten that I had put one in the chamber and I had previously had a loaded mag in the well for the weight, but it could have been prevented, if I would only have looked.

So since that little incident I never, ever, put my finger on the trigger without checking the chamber. If I lay one down and pick it right back up, I check it. If someone thinks I'm too careful or over careful, all I can say is when it comes to firearms there is no such thing.

Keltyke
September 15, 2008, 10:52 AM
You can have all the rules and guidelines you want and one day, it WILL happen. It's called an accident and not all are preventable.

Back in my youth of gun handling, I had a ND, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I had ONE and it taught me a good lesson. There hasn't been another in almost 30 years.

BillCA, you need to back off that word "stupidity". It could happen to you, ya know. It's call a NEGLIGENT discharge. The two are different - look'em up.

OP, I'm sure you learned a valuable lesson. I'm glad no one was hurt.

.22lr
September 15, 2008, 11:12 AM
Well, it finally happened.

You can have all the rules and guidelines you want and one day, it WILL happen.

Do some people think its just a matter of time before your car ends up in someone's living room? Its it an eventuality that will happen whether or not you are a careful driver?

Gun safety "rules and guidelines" need to be followed EVERY TIME. I plan on never having a negligent discharge. And for those who snicker and think "just a matter of time"... I just can't think of anything to say to you.

Bottom line is, get in the habit of ALWAYS checking your firearms chamber to ensure its not loaded before handling your weapon. If it goes out of your sight for more than 5 seconds, check it!

DING DING DING! we have a winner! what's the prize? Well, the winner never has to worry about who he/she accidentally shot! As an added bonus, the winner gets to avoid the guilt, shame and lengthly legal battle that could well deprive them of the liberty and their children of a parent!

Way too many people are shot with "unloaded" guns. We need to stop thinking that negligent discharges are a fact of life, they aren't.

Glenn E. Meyer
September 15, 2008, 11:14 AM
I think BillCA said:

"Oh... and I've BTDT and had the ringing in my ears to prove it too."

An accidental discharge is when the gun physically malfunctions when correctly used by the operator.

A negligent discharge is preventable because it focuses down to the operator manipulating the gun such that it fired when it wasn't supposed to be fired. That is not an accident. Those are preventable and yes, even the best have them and then they call themselves 'stupid'.

Keltyke
September 15, 2008, 11:30 AM
Do some people think its just a matter of time before your car ends up in someone's living room? Its it an eventuality that will happen whether or not you are a careful driver?
You're absolutely right. I should have said, "it STILL might happen."

Gun safety "rules and guidelines" need to be followed EVERY TIME. I plan on never having a negligent discharge. And for those who snicker and think "just a matter of time"... I just can't think of anything to say to you.
What a useless statement. No one ever PLANS to have a ND, but it MIGHT happen. You might forget, or get distracted, or be tired, or any number of other reasons.

To those of you who think they're perfect (Jesus complex) and above having a NG some day, I just can't think of anything to say to YOU, either.

"It might happen" is the phrase that will really help it NOT happen.

pax
September 15, 2008, 11:39 AM
I never point the weapon at anything unless I intend to kill it (except in training when I'm 100% sure the weapon is unloaded)...

Thereby guaranteeing that when you make a predictable human mistake, and the gun is loaded when you don't expect it to be, you will put a hole into someone you love or at least whom you don't intend to kill.

The first rule is all guns are always loaded. Some people state it as treat all guns as if they are loaded, and that's perfectly fine too. What that first rule simply means is that the safety rules always apply to every gun and in all circumstances, no matter who has "checked" it, no matter where you are, and no matter what you intend to happen when you handle the gun. It doesn't mean "if I think it's unloaded, then I can carry it around with my finger on the trigger while it's pointed at my toddler." It doesn't mean, "if I think it's unloaded, then I can point at my own left hand while pulling the trigger so that I can look cool while disassembling the gun."

The rules are designed to prevent this kind of thinking -- not encourage it!

Sorry to come down on you so hard, but it's important. Because so many people seem to misunderstand rule one, rule two should probably be stated, "Never allow a gun -- any gun, loaded or not -- to point at anything you are not willing to destroy."

pax

pax
September 15, 2008, 11:42 AM
Sorry that happened but that no one was hurt. Don't quite get the slide sequence but it's unimportant. I get the picture.


What don't you get about the slide sequence? If you're carrying a semiauto, it might be important that you understand the reason behind doing things in that order... (or did I misunderstand your comment?)

pax

pax
September 15, 2008, 11:51 AM
Gun safety "rules and guidelines" need to be followed EVERY TIME. I plan on never having a negligent discharge. And for those who snicker and think "just a matter of time"... I just can't think of anything to say to you.


What a useless statement. No one ever PLANS to have a ND, but it MIGHT happen. You might forget, or get distracted, or be tired, or any number of other reasons.


Stop! You're both right. :)

Seriously, guys, listen to each other for a minute.

22lr is saying that he plans to do the smart, safe thing and follow the rules every single time he handles a gun. He's absolutely correct: if you follow the rules scrupulously, habitually, religiously, you VASTLY reduce your chances of having an ND. That's because the rules comprise a complete safety system, interlocking and overlapping, with multiply-redundant layers of safety placed between the shooter and a tragedy.

But Keltyke is saying (also correctly) that human beings make mistakes. There's absolutely no arguing with this. It's absolutely true. Every human being on the planet makes mistakes -- through laziness or foolishness, through tiredness or distraction, through inattention or simple forgetfulness. Everyone makes mistakes. There are no exceptions to this rule (and there are no exceptions to the rule that everyone wants to be an exception to the rule).

22lr, following all the rules won't prevent you from making a completely predictable human mistake. The ND can still happen. But your habit of following the rules will prevent a tragedy from happening when that mistake is made. That's because there are multiple safety layers built into the rules, which means it will take more than one mistake to cause a tragedy. When you habitually follow all of the rules, all of the time, that tragedy simply won't happen even if the ND does.

For those who habitually throw away one or more of the rules, figuring that it doesn't matter and you'll just be extra careful: for you, it takes only one mistake to cause a tragedy. And since all human beings make mistakes, you're flirting with tragedy rather than with simple embarrassment, every time you handle a gun.

pax

.22lr
September 15, 2008, 12:01 PM
Keltyke, Pax
I can concede both points and have no problem admitting you both are right.

I just cannot fathom how some profess the inevitability of an ND, and that ALL shooters will *Eventually* have one. I refuse to allow this. I pray to god that I am successful.

I am human (though the wife doubts this at times) and will make mistakes, but cars, knives, guns and the like deserve respect, even a slight degree of apprehension. They are sneaky and are out to get me, so my paranoia is well founded.

My wife is a saint by the way.

Matt

Keltyke
September 15, 2008, 12:24 PM
Good posts, "pax". A ND is an eventuality, not an inevitability.

Hopefully, none of us will ever have one.

As for gun handling, you make a VERY good point. Just because you know a gun isn't loaded is NO excuse to point it at anyone or anything - much less point it and pull the trigger.

Creature
September 15, 2008, 12:31 PM
Thanks, pax, for the reality check. Welcome to the club, Smith66. In my case, familiarity bred contempt, and it wasnt long before gun safety demanded the respect it commands.

I hope to see that, when a ND does happen (God forbid), that whoever commits it writes about it. These threads always bring it back home to me when I start to become complacent.

Van55
September 15, 2008, 12:39 PM
I want to thank the OP for sharing. There can never be too many reminders that ND can (not will) happen to anyone, even those who claim to be scrupulously careful.

Musketeer
September 15, 2008, 12:41 PM
The safety issue is being beat to death. Suffice to say.

1. Following the four rules perfectly will result in NO NEGLIGENT DISCHARGES EVER.

2. Humans are fallible! That is why there are FOUR rules. Should you mess up on ONE of them the other THREE will prevent you from doing irreparable harm.

3. It takes cajones to step up to the plate and admit error. Thanks to the OP for doing so.

That all said THIS is what peaked my interest...

I used the slide lock release to drop the slide, and as per usual, pulled the trigger to put the spring at rest.

There is absolutely no reason to do that. The weapon is designed to be left in the ready to fire state. If you wish to leave the chamber empty then fine but DO NOT PULL THE TRIGGER.

Mechanically you are accomplishing nothing since with properly designed springs it is CYCLES which result in fatigue far more than STAIN in any one position within design limitations.

From a human elements standpoint you are conditioning yourself to "Drop Slide, Pull Trigger." You have probably done this time and time again and the basic neuro-impulses are burned into your brain. Hence when you went through your "routine" as you always do your body did exactly what you had trained it to do on autopilot in that situation (going to bed), "Drop Slide, Pull Trigger."

Never pull the trigger when you do not have a valid reason to. Relieving strain on the spring is NOT a valid reason.

In addition to the safety advice you have already been given you need to immediately "re-train" yourself to NOT pull the trigger on that Glock when you put it to bed each night.

bufordtjustice
September 15, 2008, 12:44 PM
When doing an "administrative" load or unload which is conducted under anything other than hostile conditions, we were taught to add two steps that might be of assistance to some who currently don't do it.

1. Lock slide to the rear and then physically (with a finger) and visually inspect the chamber to make sure nothing is lodged in there. The finger part helps if it is low light.

2. When loading the weapon watch the round,or no round, depending on what you are doing, go into the clear chamber.

I am not talking about combat reloads, tactical reloads, etc. Those should obviously be executed as quickly as you can. When you are doing and administrative upload/download, you have all the time in the world.

KLRANGL
September 15, 2008, 12:59 PM
I almost had a ND a few weeks back, which would have ended quite badly if it happened...
Friend of mine wanted to take a picture of his Israeli chick friend with my AK47, god knows why... So I started emptying rounds from the magazine. Unfortunately, either being distracted by those around me or from the double column design hiding one of the rounds from view, the magazine still had one round in it when it was inserted into the weapon... Luckily for me I make a habit of pulling back the charging handle at least 3 times and then visually inspecting the chamber before I hand it off to anyone... Should of seen my surprise when a brass 7.62x39 came flying out of the ejection port on the second pull... Had my "system" of checks not been in place, someone could very realistically have been hurt cuz those round laugh in the face of common household walls... Ive been mentally kicking myself ever since...

I guess the point of this is, as others have said, set a system down for handling your weapon... Making a few mistakes in sequence is a lot harder to do than only making one... Mistakes will happen, and I made mine...
And dont ever let your friend take pictures of his girl with your gun at a party full of anti-gun liberal hippies... That just ends badly :P

joerockt
September 15, 2008, 01:16 PM
Scary. Personally, as a rule I never dry fire a pistol with a magazine in place. When I put my "nightstand" pistol away after cleaning, I lock the slide, inspect, release the slide, pull trigger and then insert fully loaded mag. And when I take it out to go to the range, the first thing I do is drop the mag, lock the slide and inspect. Been doing it for years and, to me, its a very safe process.

I don't understand what the point is of inserting an empty magazine while at rest. Better to just know that every mag you insert is loaded. No confusion then.

.22lr
September 15, 2008, 01:20 PM
I commend the OP for using his event to educate and remind. Admitting fault is something that people weak of character rarely ever do, and I feel that the OP's post speaks very well of them.

My only point is that we need not accept that everyone will eventually have an ND, regardless of carefulness.

I apologize if I seemed to imply anything else.

VR

Matt

Sixer
September 15, 2008, 01:28 PM
I had a similar situation occur... It took about two days for the ringing in my ears to stop. I will NEVER make the same mistake again. It honestly put the fear of God into me!

My ND also happened with a Glock (G23). I was pre-occupied with the TV while disassembling my gun. The trigger was already in the "fired" position as I proceeded to push the slide forward and off. It got stuck about half way. I first thought that it had come off the rail, so I forced it back into the original position.

Well... the reason it got stuck had nothing to do with the rail. The loaded magazine in the gun was the actual problem. As I kept most of my focus on the TV I jammed the slide back which then chambered a round. I then pulled the trigger and recieved one of the biggest suprises of my life! Luckily the JHP round fired harmlessly into a bookshelf where it lost most of its energy. I think I was in shock for the next 30 min. It makes me shutter everytime I think about it, but I wont be forgetting it anytime soon!

The fact that it was a Glock had nothing to do with it. Any other gun being taken down would have had the safety off. It was my own stupidity that led to the accident. Lesson learned :o

KLRANGL
September 15, 2008, 01:44 PM
Just outa curiosity, do you have to file a police report for a ND? I mean, if a neighbor hears it and calls the cops and they show up askin what happened... I guess I mean are there legal ramifications assuming no one gets hurt?

joerockt
September 15, 2008, 01:51 PM
^^^wow. Like I said in my last post, the magazine is the very first thing I remove before doing anything else to a pistol. Its amazing to me to think that someone would start cleaning a pistol without removing the magazine first, regardless if they thought it was full or not.

Ridge_Runner_5
September 15, 2008, 01:52 PM
Welcome to the club, OP!:o

GLP Standard
September 15, 2008, 02:30 PM
Thereby guaranteeing that when you make a predictable human mistake, and the gun is loaded when you don't expect it to be, you will put a hole into someone you love or at least whom you don't intend to kill.

The first rule is all guns are always loaded. Some people state it as treat all guns as if they are loaded, and that's perfectly fine too. What that first rule simply means is that the safety rules always apply to every gun and in all circumstances, no matter who has "checked" it, no matter where you are, and no matter what you intend to happen when you handle the gun. It doesn't mean "if I think it's unloaded, then I can carry it around with my finger on the trigger while it's pointed at my toddler." It doesn't mean, "if I think it's unloaded, then I can point at my own left hand while pulling the trigger so that I can look cool while disassembling the gun."

The rules are designed to prevent this kind of thinking -- not encourage it!

Please don't get me wrong. I never said that I'm careless about where the muzzle of my firearm goes when I know its unloaded. I don't point it at ANYTHING that doesnt want it to be pointed at. I completely see where the first rule comes from, and if its followed, it would be a great rule to prevent a ND.

However, there are times in training or practicing where you have to point the weapon at something you don't actually intend to shoot. Like dry firing, or practicing drawing from the holster. And I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but I believe that if both parties agree to it, and both parties have checked the weapon, that it's okay to point a weapon at another person during training, or demonstrations. I mean, they even make plastic drop in barrels now just for the added security, so that you can use a real firearm in training demonstrations. This is just how I was taught, so if it makes me a danger or a threat, then thats your opinion. When I was in my firearms class, the instructor taught us that the muzzle of the firearm ALWAYS has to pass over something. Whether it be the floor, the ceiling, your own leg when its in its holster on your waist, you're ALWAYS point it at something you dont intend to shoot. He also taught us that the gun CANNOT physically go off unless you do something to make it go off, like PULL THE TRIGGER. That being said, if someone takes a loaded weapon, sitting in a holster, and places the weapon, holster and all on the table, and the muzzle is pointed in my direction, this doesn't make me uneasy (assuming of course he/she didnt do it intentionally). I mean, come on, Im paranoid about firearms, but I'm not THAT paranoid to the point where I'm afraid of the weapon even when its so blatantly obvious that its unloaded, or I have to worry about it firing itself.

I definately see where you're coming from in your statement that this is why the first rule is there, but like I said, please dont mistake me for someone who goes around pointing the firearm at everything and everyone just because its not loaded. I definately use common sense and display some form of cautiousness and courtesy even around unloaded firearms.

redhart
September 15, 2008, 02:44 PM
to err is human, to forgive is devine,neither is Marine corps policy... Glad you are ok.

Keltyke
September 15, 2008, 02:46 PM
I don't point it at ANYTHING that doesnt want it to be pointed at.

So if someone says, "Please point your gun at me." you would?

but I believe that if both parties agree to it, and both parties have checked the weapon, that it's okay to point a weapon at another person during training, or demonstrations.

That's scary...and not NEARLY good enough for me. Sorry. That's what they make plastic replicas for.

HiBC
September 15, 2008, 02:49 PM
I can still replay the cartoon in my mind from over 40 years ago I might have been 15.I had just approached my first big game animal down.We loaded up the animal,and drove back to town.Was hanging it up to skin.
Handed my Rem 700 7 mag to my little brother,told him to take it in the house.
The I said "Come back here" I just felt like I should go through the "formality" of sending him in with an open breech.
I can still see that loaded 7mag round spinning through the air.I had just looked at what a 160 gr Sierra does to a human sized antelope when it hits shoulder.I approached the down critter rifle hot,then set it down.It rode home that way.
Sure,some of us are too perfect to mess up.Or some of us think we are,and just haven't gained enough experience,yet.
Do eveything right,and still,never forget a death ray comes out the muzzle.

Relayer
September 15, 2008, 05:20 PM
GLP Standard "I believe that if both parties agree to it, and both parties have checked the weapon, that it's okay to point a weapon at another person during training, or demonstrations."

As unlikely as it may seem, a mistake is still possible and in this case it could surely get somebody hurt or killed.

Never point a weapon at somebody or something your are not willing to destroy.

Beretta686
September 15, 2008, 05:54 PM
This is why I have no fear of guns whatsoever, but I'm terrified by people with guns outside of a structured range environment.

P.S.- I put a .22 round through a house as a kid and scared the living sh*t out of me, which makes me hyper-paranoid about checking chambers before releasing the trigger.

Erik
September 15, 2008, 06:48 PM
"Just had an ND"

Learn from it and move on, as with any other mistake.

pax
September 15, 2008, 07:35 PM
And I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but I believe that if both parties agree to it, and both parties have checked the weapon, that it's okay to point a weapon at another person during training, or demonstrations.

Yes, that's the procedure this person followed: http://video.aol.com/video-detail/dea-agent-shoots-himself-with-his-glock-40/1055649446 I'm sure he thought he was following a safe procedure when he unloaded his gun, checked it, and then also had another person check it.

What he did might have even been his department's policy, but ... well, it wasn't safe, and it isn't safe, to point functional firearms (even unloaded ones) at body parts belonging to human beings whom you are not willing to shoot. I'm glad it was only his own leg that got shot, and not the chest or head of a training partner, or any of the children sitting in front of him.

By the way, there's neither glee nor sarcasm here. I'm not one to rejoice in the misfortunes of others, especially not some poor guy who injured himself in such a spectacular manner that he will literally never live it down because it was caught on video and went viral. There but for the grace of God and all that: people make mistakes.

Please don't think I'm flaming you. I'm really not. I am begging you to reconsider a dangerous habit, and giving you reasons why you might want to do so.

By the way, I agree with you about those plastic barrels. They're the cat's pajamas, all right. :) They turn a functioning firearm into a non-functioning replica which fits all of your gear, and allow you to do all the basic manipulations you'd ever want to do without endangering anyone.

pax

Sixer
September 15, 2008, 07:45 PM
Just outa curiosity, do you have to file a police report for a ND? I mean, if a neighbor hears it and calls the cops and they show up askin what happened... I guess I mean are there legal ramifications assuming no one gets hurt?

No LEO's ever showed up in my situation. It was strange because I live in pretty nice neighborhood and it happened around 8pm. You'd think somebody would have called the cops.

I actually sat in disbelief for a couple hours, waiting for a knock on the door. Fortunately that never happened. I wasnt about to call and tell on myself either :)

nemoaz
September 15, 2008, 07:57 PM
I know of no police or military firearms instructor that teaches you to handle the weapon as you did. I see no reason to drop the hammer/striker and several reasons not to. Reconsider your method of storage. Your hunting experience isn't helping you in this case.

Someone else mentioned administrative procedures for unloading. My agency is taught to do the following:
1. Drop the magazine.
2. Rack the slide five times.
3. Lock the slide back.
4. Visually inspect the chamber.
5. Physically check the chamber.
6. Show it to a buddy on your left and then a buddy on your right to verify. (At home you don't have a buddy, so check it three times. Count in your head and say "it's clear" or "it's empty" each time.)

PS I won't admit to doing something very simliar with a 22 rifle when I had a clean face and couldn't buy beer.

Hemicuda
September 15, 2008, 07:57 PM
you are wrong... that IS a Glock-related ND...

you see, even WITH a loaded mag in it, you do not need to pull the triggeer in ANY of my Smith & Wesson, Beretta, Ruger, or Dan Wesson, semi-auto pistols...

you can't take them apart with the mag in, so THAT part would be the same... BUT, you don't have to pull the trigger and THEREFORE, your Nd IS Glock-related...

Luis Leon
September 15, 2008, 09:01 PM
Thank goodness no one was hurt. That said, it amazing how analytical people get after the ND takes place. If there ever is a doubt the gun is loaded, visually checking the chamber take seconds.

I practice dry firing a lot, almost everyday, If I have any doubt about the state of any of my weapons, I check the chamber, even If I don't have a doubt and was just handling an empty weapon, I still check the chamber. Even after squeezing the trigger on a snap cap, I still check the chamber. Doesn't matter the reason, interuption, etc, when in doubt... check the chamber, rack the slide multiple times, etc., doesn't cost a thing but time. Responses like "welcome to the club" are bull, if you follow all the safety rules, you should never have to "join the club".

best regards,

Luis Leon

porkskin
September 15, 2008, 09:16 PM
Ah, Glock, the undisputed heavyweight king of negligent discharges...

cvb
September 15, 2008, 09:25 PM
Smith66 thanks for posting. Your ND is serious, treat it as such, move on.
You chose to have this gun hobby/gun lifestyle, and this is part of it.

Deaf Smith
September 15, 2008, 09:51 PM
Smith...

You do know it's going to rain tomorrow?

On the serious side, what happend is a very very good lesson for everyone. No matter how experienced you are, how many schools you've been to, how much trigger time, you can still make THE mistake.

That includes me to!

Glad you had it pointed in a safe direction. I've seen plenty of photos of people who didn't have it in a safe direction!

w_houle
September 15, 2008, 09:56 PM
I have just recently had a semi-ND. On my 1873 I usually load one, skip one and load the rest. I do that so I can have an empty cylinder to watch my trigger control, well I got my count wrong and what I thought was an empty cylinder wasn't. It was kind of okay because I was aiming at something I planned on shooting, just not on that pull of the trigger.:eek:

JohnKSa
September 16, 2008, 12:16 AM
...you do not need to pull the triggeer in ANY of my Smith & Wesson, Beretta, Ruger, or Dan Wesson, semi-auto pistols...At least two of the companies you listed make at least one pistol model that requires the trigger to be pulled for disassembly.

While that may or may not be a problem, it's certainly not a "Glock" problem since there were pistols for many years before Glocks were even thought of that required a trigger pull for disassembly.

It's a very rare ND that can be blamed on equipment though it's common for people to try. NDs are almost invariably the result of violating very simple safety rules.

Hemicuda
September 16, 2008, 01:05 AM
You quoted me:

Quote:
...you do not need to pull the triggeer in ANY of my Smith & Wesson, Beretta, Ruger, or Dan Wesson, semi-auto pistols...

At least two of the companies you listed make at least one pistol model that requires the trigger to be pulled for disassembly.

OK... let's read that statement CAREFULLY...

...you do not need to pull the triggeer in ANY of my Smith & Wesson, Beretta, Ruger, or Dan Wesson, semi-auto pistols...

I put it that way on purpose... and the "my" describes the pistols that I, Hemicuda own, from those companies... I am FULLY aware that some of those copmpanies make striker-fired guns... but I asure you that none of MY Smith & Wesson, Beretta, Ruger, or Dan Wesson, semi-auto pistols need have the trigger pulled for disassembly... and my statement is 100% totally true!

JohnKSa
September 16, 2008, 01:12 AM
Your post began and ended with the assertion that the ND was Glock related. I therefore naturally assumed that the point of your post was that the ND was Glock related and responded appropriately.

The fact that YOU personally do not own pistols that have this feature is not evidence that this is a Glock issue, it's only evidence of your buying preferences.

In reality the need to pull the trigger for disassembly is NOT exclusive to Glocks nor did it originate with Glocks. There are other gunmakers that make pistols that require the trigger be pulled for disassembly. Your list conveniently contained two of those makers. At least one of those manufacturers was making a gun that required the trigger be pulled for dissassembly LONG before Glock pistols came on the market.

So, while the ND could be construed to be related to the need to pull the trigger for disassembly (in reality it's the result of not following simple safety rules), trying to imply that is a Glock issue (rather than a design issue shared by several products by several manufacturers) is even more incorrect.

The point is that NDs are almost invariably the result of violating very simple safety rules, NOT the fault of the equipment involved.

Hemicuda
September 16, 2008, 01:20 AM
It IS a Glock related issue... he was shooting his ceiling with a Glock, not a Korth, or a Colt 1911, or a NAA Mini...

and this type of Nd (I know what an ND and what an AD are) is not gonna happen with MY guns... it can't...

there ARE others that is can happen with, but he wasn't shooting those, was he? he was shooting a Glock...

If he'd have been ND'ing a Charmin tiolet-paper roll, then it would be Charmin toilet-paper roll related...

Smith66
September 16, 2008, 01:24 AM
First of all, thanks to everyone for thier replies. I am glad to take advice and hear other people's personal experiences. Secondly, I'm half tempted to say "don't blame the Glock, it functioned flawlessly yet again"...but I won't, because I didn't start this thread to get into the Glock vs ____ thing. Bottom line is, I pulled the trigger = my fault. I've been going over the incident in my head all day, and I know what I did wrong. I'm never going to make those mistakes again. What I've been thinking about is why it happened. I've slipped into some bad habbits that until the other day seemed harmless. I believe that the "negligent" in ND refers to the shooter's (my) mindset. I had become negligent or lazy in my handling of firearms I am very firmiliar with, and that is how a series of mistakes led to an accident. I've done my pennance (thanks, Fr. BillCA :o ), and I'm tempted to repeat such a drill at least once a week, to keep from becoming negligent again. Thanks again to everybody,

Smith66

Hemicuda
September 16, 2008, 01:36 AM
All you can do is to remeber this, and not let it ever happen again...

Mine was a true AD... a gun with a half-cock featuee (a revolver) had the lock let go, from half-cock, and fired a .22 lead-nose into a magazine for my .17 HN2... made a mess of a $25.00 magazine that was full of ammo at the time... (I didn't think the hammer could get up enough energy from half-cock, to fire a primer!)

it is only the 4 rules that saved me... gun was pointed in a safe direction, and not at someone or something irreplacable... (pointed at the top shelf of the safe...) My AD will ALWAYS remind me why we point them in a safe direction AT ALL TIMES!!!

DON'T tear yourself up over this, but also never forget...

pax
September 16, 2008, 01:38 AM
Smith66 ~

Excellent summary and closing statement.

Thanks for being brave enough to share your mistake with us, so that we could learn from it. It takes a real man to step up and say, "I was wrong, and now I'm going to change it..." Kudos.

pax