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View Full Version : Is it legal to give a gun to my father?


noelf2
September 8, 2008, 08:48 AM
My father is a Florida resident and I'm a Virginia resident. I would like to give him a CZ-82 from my collection (I have a C&R license but he doesn't). Will I be breaking laws?

freakshow10mm
September 8, 2008, 09:09 AM
No. Log it out in your book.

Technosavant
September 8, 2008, 10:33 AM
So long as he's legal to own it, it's fine. (Edit: This is incorrect; I missed that father and son were different states. It must go through a FFL in the home state.)

I just would not go ordering things with the intention of giving them away- one or two every few years isn't likely to show any red flags (especially if there is a few months between your acquiring them and the disposition), but too many of them and the ATF will likely get interested.

Tamara
September 8, 2008, 10:36 AM
If he is a resident of another state, then you will still need to transfer it via an FFL in his home state. You can't just hand it to him for him to take home or give it to him the next time you visit.

Tread very carefully when taking legal advice from the intarw3bz; no poster here can sit in a prison cell for you.

noelf2
September 8, 2008, 03:15 PM
That's kind of what I thought. I couldn't find a "But he's my Dad" clause. My dad has a nice little 1908 Colt 25 auto that would be excellent for my collection, but if I buy that from him it leaves him with no carry options. I'd rather he have a CZ-82 anyway (more powerful and more rounds). May have to go the FFL transfer route.

So, bear with me on this question. Is it legal for a gun owner (no FFL) who has a C&R eligable gun to sell it to an FFL03 license holder from another state (i.e. me buying my Dad's Colt 25) without going through another FFL license holder?

Wuchak
September 8, 2008, 04:28 PM
Yes, your Dad can sell you his Colt if it's C&R eligible. The restriction is on the receiving end, not the selling end. Since you hold an FFL that enables you to receive that gun directly he can ship it to you (still have to use UPS of Fed-Ex) or give it to you and you just record the transaction in your book.

For you to give him your CZ you'll have to ship it to a regular FFL in Florida.

Tamara
September 8, 2008, 04:31 PM
...AFAIK, yes. I'm pretty sure it works just as though you were an 01 in this case. You would have to book the Colt 1908 straight into your books from your dad. Use his address rather than an FFL #.


EDITED TO ADD: Dang, Wuchak types fast! :D

VaFisher
September 9, 2008, 06:51 AM
You could have your dad store any of your C&R guns at his residence in FL if you so decide.

Wuchak
September 9, 2008, 08:02 AM
: )

Technosavant
September 9, 2008, 10:37 AM
You could have your dad store any of your C&R guns at his residence in FL if you so decide.

Actually, I don't think that is legal. I don't have my books of ATF regulations here in my office, but AFAIK, the "collecting activity" needs to occur at the premises shown on the FFL. That means, for a 03 FFL (C&R), that the guns need to be at the address on the license. I'm sure somebody will correct me if I am wrong, but I'd think "I was just storing them there" wouldn't hold any water.

A C&R is only $30, at that price every firearms enthusiast ought to have one. Thirty bucks, a couple envelopes and stamps, and you're good to go.

Tamara
September 9, 2008, 11:09 AM
You could have your dad store any of your C&R guns at his residence in FL if you so decide.

That is some singularly lousy advice, there. You just suggested he commit a federal felony (http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/intro.htm). Did you mean to do that?

Creature
September 9, 2008, 12:04 PM
So, I can not gift any pistol to my father (who resides in FL as well)...or vice-versa? Even in a face to face situation?

If not, then how does inheriting a gun work?

noelf2
September 9, 2008, 01:04 PM
There must be some buried print in the regs that covers inheritance and gifts between family members. I doubt that someone would have to run all inherited guns through an FFL transfer. Most likely, inherited guns are just not reported.

Creature
September 9, 2008, 01:09 PM
There must be some buried print in the regs that covers inheritance and gifts between family members.

Surely this must be the case. I hope.

Tamara
September 9, 2008, 01:43 PM
What, do you think that the Gun Control Act of 1968 was written to make it convenient for gun owners? :confused:

A face-to-face transfer between non-licensees across state lines is illegal. It doesn't matter whether you won the gun in a raffle or bought it out of the trunk of a car or your little brother gave it to you.

Bequests in wills are an exception (http://74.125.95.104/search?q=cache:3VwFk-IOsroJ:edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2001/aprqtr/pdf/27cfr178.30.pdf+cfr+27+178.29+(a)&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us), but even then can be subject to state laws. (The Feds might let someone take grandpop's Luger from Florida back to California or New Jersey, but how does Cali or Jersey feel about it?)

ISC
September 9, 2008, 02:17 PM
from the ATF website:
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/intro.htm

§ 178.50 Locations covered by license. The license covers the class of business or the activity specified in the license at the address specified therein. A separate license must be obtained for each location at which a firearms or ammunition business or activity requiring a license under this part is conducted except:

(a) No license is required to cover a separate warehouse used by the licensee solely for storage of firearms or ammunition if the records required by this part are maintained at the licensed premises served by such warehouse;

(b) A licensed collector may acquire curios and relics at any location, and dispose of curios or relics to any licensee or to other persons who are residents of the State where the collector's license is held and the disposition is made.

(c) A licensee may conduct business at a gun show pursuant to the provision of § 178.100; or

(d) A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the business of dealing in curio or relic firearms with another licensee at any location pursuant to the provision of § 178.100.


It looks like he could ask his dad to store it for him at a "separate warehous ". ATF also says that a person can ship it to himself in another state in care of a designated third party. That's probably prohibited in this case due to his FFL.

If your dad lives in North Central Florida I know an FFL that does transfers in Waldo, Fl for $20.

Tamara
September 9, 2008, 02:23 PM
Where he would probably get cross-threaded with the Feds is convincing them that his dad's nightstand drawer or auto glovebox is "a separate warehouse used by the licensee solely for storage of firearms". That's a big chance to take just to avoid a shipping fee and NICS check.

Technosavant
September 9, 2008, 03:04 PM
Where he would probably get cross-threaded with the Feds is convincing them that his dad's nightstand drawer or auto glovebox is "a separate warehouse used by the licensee solely for storage of firearms". That's a big chance to take just to avoid a shipping fee and NICS check.

I fully agree with Tamara here. The fact is, we are discussing what is allowed so that you can avoid shipping it down there to an FFL (or taking it down there yourself and stopping by a gun shop) and paying the transfer fee. All together, we aren't even talking about $100, which won't even buy you a half hour of lawyer time if the ATF decides to go after you.

You have to weigh the risk/benefit. I wouldn't bet $100 that the ATF would go with the "I was just keeping that one gun there" argument.

Hkmp5sd
September 9, 2008, 03:17 PM
Scratch that...changed my mind. :)

BTW, it is stupid to try to use the off site storage to get around using an 01-FFL. Just have Dad pay $30 and get his own C&R if you are that hard up for money.

NavyLT
September 9, 2008, 03:50 PM
There must be some buried print in the regs that covers inheritance and gifts between family members.

18 USC 922
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+18USC922

Inheritance by bequest is an exception to the "not across state lines" rule.

Gifts, whether they be to family members or not, are not exceptions. You can gift a firearm to ANYONE legally able to possess the firearm, but for no FFL's involved, the giver and receiver must be residents of the same state.

VaFisher
September 10, 2008, 07:52 AM
Tamara
That is some singularly lousy advice, there. You just suggested he commit a federal felony. Did you mean to do that?


You must have not been up on all the laws when you posted this because I would not have done what you are suggesting.
I would have made it legal and gone thru the BATF not backassward like you suggest.
If worried it could have been listed this way with the BATF also but like the other posted said why not just spend the $30.00 and get Dad a C&R of his own.
Edited to add, a Staff member's should read up on what he is posting about when it comes to a subject he or she doen't know the answer, rather BATF wrote these laws not myself in this case so if you think they are wrong maybe you should write or call them sir. Further more I do not think it's right to call foul when it's in black and white for all to see if one had done his home work before hand. I understand it takes time to do this but in some cases it should be done before posting.

from the ATF website
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/intro.htm


Quote:
§ 178.50 Locations covered by license. The license covers the class of business or the activity specified in the license at the address specified therein. A separate license must be obtained for each location at which a firearms or ammunition business or activity requiring a license under this part is conducted except:

(a) No license is required to cover a separate warehouse used by the licensee solely for storage of firearms or ammunition if the records required by this part are maintained at the licensed premises served by such warehouse;
(b) A licensed collector may acquire curios and relics at any location, and dispose of curios or relics to any licensee or to other persons who are residents of the State where the collector's license is held and the disposition is made.

(c) A licensee may conduct business at a gun show pursuant to the provision of § 178.100; or

(d) A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the business of dealing in curio or relic firearms with another licensee at any location pursuant to the provision of § 178.100.

Tamara
September 10, 2008, 12:26 PM
Edited to add,(sic) a Staff member's(sic) should read up on what he is posting about when it comes to a subject he or she doen't(sic) know the answer, rather BATF wrote(sic) these laws not myself in this case so if you think they are wrong maybe you should write or call them sir(sic). Further more(sic... oh, I give up. Just "sic" the rest of the dang quote, too.) I do not think it's right to call foul when it's in black and white for all to see if one had done his home work before hand. I understand it takes time to do this but in some cases it should be done before posting.

Mr. Fisher (I presume that is some variant of your name),

I first "read up" on these laws in 1993 when I accepted my first position as the manager of a Type 01 FFL, and have endeavored to remain current on them as it is important to my professional viability to remain so.

If you will please note, the quoted section you so laboriously transcribed says "a separate warehouse used by the licensee solely for storage of firearms or ammunition".

I defy you to convince a court of law that the original poster's father's house is: A) Used solely by the licensee, and B) Used solely for storage. I have some experience in dealing with the BATFE on the topic of storage in an off-premises warehouse (including bonded warehouses for Type 08 SOTs) and I can assure you that "noelf2's dad's house" does not meet the BATFE's requirements.

Please stop handing out bad advice, okay? Do you want to help fellow gun owners go to prison?

This thread is done.