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postal guy
September 3, 2008, 01:09 PM
I am in the process of purchasing my FIRST bp pistol. A gentleman on-line has a (from the symbol on the left side) Uberti 1851 for a good price. My question for you experts are: the pistol looks to have all brass behind the barrel and not what looks to be case-hardened steel. He said he got this from a fellow who said it is new. Does not look to be what is at the Uberti site. Also, what do I need to be cautious of being I am a newbie. This will be my first, not my last. Thanks, guys.:confused:

oldmaster111
September 3, 2008, 01:32 PM
What he is selling is a copy of the Confederate copy of the Colt Navy. The south didn't have much steel so they used brass where they could. I have one but it was made by Pietta. Fun to shoot and resonably accurate. You will have to reduce your black powder load. I use 23-24 grains of powder under the felt wad and ball. Works just fine. I'm assuming the revolver you are looking at is a 44. If it is a 36 caliber, you might want to reduce the load a little more.The brass is soft but if you take care to not fire it with all the powder you can stuff in it, it should last you a long time.:D

Citizen Carrier
September 3, 2008, 02:42 PM
And if you put some time in with a rag and some Brasso, you can polish the brass to a very high sheen.

postal guy
September 3, 2008, 02:44 PM
Thanks,oldmaster. My problem is I did not see this pistol on the Uberti web site. Would the Uberti symbol be on something else? BTW it is .36.

Oquirrh
September 3, 2008, 03:06 PM
If it has the Uberti proof mark then, it's an Uberti. They may have discontinued the line. I've never seen an Uberti brass-framed 51, only Pietta.

A .36 would be hard to overload with black powder, even with a brass frame. With accurate loads, 15 to 25 grains, it should outlast you and produce a lot of fun and smoke.

As you probably know, there were no brass-framed colts. I'm not even sure if the Confederacy copied the '51 in brass. Somebody else here will know.

Keep in mind, that the resale value on a brass-framed '51 should be less than a steel-framed one. Meaning, you should get a better deal because when you sell it, you're going to get less for it. Around here, i saw a brass-framed Pietta in good shape offered for $150.

The Colt is a little harder to master than the Remington '58, but worth it. I have a '51 and am looking at buying another one if I can get a decent price.

mykeal
September 3, 2008, 04:32 PM
Uberti has never made a brass framed 1851 Navy. However, they did make two replicas of the Confederate revolvers which were based on the Colt Navy design but with brass frames: the Augusta Confederate which had an engraved cylinder and the Griswold and Gunnison, which did not. The Augusta was available in .36 only, while the G&G was sold in both .36 and .44.

Neither is highly regarded, bringing only $210 for NIB condition examples in the Blue Book valuations.

postal guy
September 3, 2008, 05:52 PM
How good a deal is it for $75. I think it is a good deal. Opinions please. I think from the looks of it to be the Augusta as it is engraved.

long rider
September 3, 2008, 05:56 PM
OK make that brass frame sparkle, then hang it on
the wall and go and get a steel frame 51, i dont
care what guys say about brass frames, they are not
worth the money, a steel frame will out last you, but a
brass frame will streeeeeeech on you, but thats my op:rolleyes:

tinker2
September 3, 2008, 06:58 PM
I have a brass frame Confederate copy of the Colt Navy
in .36 caliber. I got it in the 60’s. I have shot it a lot.


I would buy it if I saw it.



Tinker2

Hawg
September 3, 2008, 07:26 PM
If it's a brass frame 51 it's not Uberti, unless maybe it's a real old Uberti. If it has a round barrel it's not a 51. Brass frames will last a long time with moderate loads. They won't last long at all with hot loads.

postal guy
September 3, 2008, 08:13 PM
Here is a picture.

Hawg
September 3, 2008, 08:35 PM
The trade mark does appear to be Uberti altho it's not close enough in the pic to tell for sure. Is there a capital U inside the octagon? IMHO if it is Uberti it's an older one from the early 60's. I've never heard of a brass frame 51 made by Uberti but they may have made some in the early days.

mykeal
September 3, 2008, 09:11 PM
Hawg - read post #6.

Postal Guy - From the Fifth Edition (2007) of the Blue Book of Modern Black Powder Arms, under the Uberti listings on page 200:
Augusta Confederate - .36 cal. perc., 7.5 in. octagon barrel, color case hardened hammer and trigger, all brass frame, engraved cylinder, 2.5-2.75 lbs. Disc. $215 (100%) $165 (98%) $125 (90%) $85 (80%) Last MSR was $210.

And on page 201:
Griswold and Gunnison - .36 or .44 cal. perc., 5.5 or 7.5 in. barrel, similar to Augusta Confederate model, except has round barrel forward of lug, does not have engraved cylinder. Disc. 1994. $210 (100%) $165 (98%) $125 (90%) $90 (80%) Last MSR was $220.

Condition is everything in black powder revolvers. The picture suggests the claim of 'new' is at least reasonable if not factual, but one would have to have the gun in hand to really tell for sure. On the basis of the picture $75 is a good deal. But all I can do is advise you to check the bore carefully with a strong light, remove the barrel and cylinder and inspect the cylinder chambers and nipples carefully for corrosion, and cycle the action (being very careful NOT to drop the hammer on the nipples) for cylinder lockup at full cock, freedom of cylinder rotation in one direction only at half cock, and lockup/end play with the hammer down.

pohill
September 3, 2008, 09:14 PM
$75? I'd do it in a second.
Here's a brass framed High Standard Griswold & Gunnison. Great gun. I keep the loads around 15 grs of BP and it's been fine.
The second pic is what happens to a brass framed gun if it's abused (very old Spiller & Burr)
http://i34.tinypic.com/2jg9jcj.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/jqsyrm.jpg

Hawg
September 3, 2008, 09:49 PM
From the Fifth Edition (2007) of the Blue Book of Modern Black Powder Arms, under the Uberti listings on page 200:
Augusta Confederate - .36 cal. perc., 7.5 in. octagon barrel, color case hardened hammer and trigger, all brass frame, engraved cylinder, 2.5-2.75 lbs. Disc. $215 (100%) $165 (98%) $125 (90%) $85 (80%) Last MSR was $210.

OK, I'm not familiar with the Augusta.

mykeal
September 4, 2008, 07:22 AM
No problem. I've only ever actually seen one, and I was fooled by it at the time, thinking it was a Colt Navy knockoff. Well, in a way it is, but it was Augusta Machine Works that did the knockoff, and Uberti attempted a replica of that gun. Augusta's guns were a bit of a mystery as they were not marked as to manufacturer, so there is some minor controversy as to which ones they actually made, if indeed they really made any at all.

postal guy
September 4, 2008, 10:53 AM
Hey guys, thanks for helping a newbie out with your thoughts and comments. I guess I will get this one as it is a good deal. The next one I get will be steel framed.

Oquirrh
September 4, 2008, 03:51 PM
$75? buy it!

Then shoot the heck out of it and tell us if the frame stretches. :-)

BTW, what is engraved on the Augusta cylinder?

Cimarron Lawman
September 4, 2008, 05:36 PM
Here's an Augusta Machine Works (or what they claim is an AMW) with a steel frame:

http://www.damonmills.com/images/PS%2018/augusta.htm

mykeal
September 4, 2008, 07:02 PM
As clarification: only the Uberti replica of the Augusta Confederate has an engraved cylinder; whether the originals had such engraving, and what Uberti used as a model for their engraving are not clear. Certainly the original in Cimarron Lawman's post does not have the engraving. But the rarity of actual examples of Augusta revolvers and their lack of marking identifying the guns makes it very difficult to make any reliable statement about original engraving.

Smokin_Gun
September 6, 2008, 05:42 AM
Around here, i saw a brass-framed Pietta in good shape offered for $150

Oquirrh, I got a 2001 [BP] Pietta .44 brasser $125 shipped and an Armi San Paolo(ASP) before the name changed to Euroarms 1986[AP] 5" 1851 Navy .36 $150 shipped. Good condition.

Others too just ask,

SG

.44 Pietta
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/09-03-08BOArmsport 1551 Navy .44 steel $160 shipped
[IMG]http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/09-03-08_1854.jpg
1862 Police .36 5.5"bbl $50 shipped
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/09-04-08_1915-1.jpg
All are in good stasy.




SG

I' burt ad 0iv8ut

postal guy
September 10, 2008, 06:34 PM
Well I went ahead and bought the pistol even though I could see it was not "new". You can see some rust on a couple nipples and a buggered screw. Can any screw replace the bad one. In otherwords, can I buy one on the internet and it not be specific to this particular exact pistol? Also should I replace ALL the nipples or just the rusted ones. I'm looking forward to start learning and shooting black powder weapons.

mykeal
September 10, 2008, 08:42 PM
You can probably get away with replacing just the damaged nipples, but I'd replace all of them.

You can probably replace the screw with one that goes in the same position on any of the Uberti medium or small frame Colt design replicas. I'm not aware that Uberti ever changed the thread dimensions at any time in their history.

postal guy
September 11, 2008, 07:21 PM
Thanks,mykeal for the quick response. Would anyone recommend a BP book for a novice?

mykeal
September 11, 2008, 09:46 PM
Start with the sticky thread at the top of the forum: So you want a cap and ball revolver, part 2.

A good book is Percussion Pistols And Revolvers: History, Performance and Practical Use by Mike Cumpston and Johnny Bates from Amazon.com.

While you're on Amazon, do a search on Sam Fadala. You'll find several titles that are worth having, depending on your interests.

Smokin_Gun
September 12, 2008, 12:04 AM
they are not
worth the money, a steel frame will out last you, but a
brass frame will streeeeeeech on you, but thats my op

I'm jus' curious to know how you tested your theory? How many Brass Frame Colts or Rems have you owned and wore out? If you have, how many rounds or years did it take you?
I know how long they do last with proper loads and care. I'd jus' like to know how your findings differ?

Thanx,

SG

bprevolver
September 29, 2008, 11:12 AM
There has been much confusion about what is called an “Augusta” replica revolver. Uberti or no one else has ever made a replica of the Confederate Augusta revolver. The original Augusta revolvers were copies of the Colt 1851 Navy with steel frames and 12 cylinder stops. What Uberti produced was a brass frame Griswold & Gunnison with Dragoon style barrel(half round). Other manufacturers produced a brass frame revolver with an Octagon barrel. This is what is referred to as the Augusta revolver by Blue Book, just one of numerous questionable entries. The nearest revolver to this brass frame, octagon barrel, 1851 Navy type revolver is the Confederate Schneider & Glassick. To be historically correct it would have to have a plain cylinder(no engraving) and in .36cal. They were produced in .44cal. as well. Some of the manufacturers of the Schneider & Glassick are Pietta, Armi San Marco, Armi San Paolo, and Investarms. There are many, many of these revolvers in all variations distributed by distributors who marked their guns. This is was makes them collectable.

mykeal
September 29, 2008, 02:11 PM
Ok, now I'm confused.

Other manufacturers produced a brass frame revolver with an Octagon barrel. This is what is referred to as the Augusta revolver by Blue Book, just one of numerous questionable entries.
Is your point that the Blue Book erroneously named the Uberti brass framed .44 cal half round barrel, or that Uberti misnamed their product? Or that Blue Book listed other manufacturer's products under the Uberti name? Just what are you saying here? Is the Blue Book entry under Uberti correct as to the Griswold and Gunnison product?

bprevolver
October 5, 2008, 03:51 PM
Uberti made replicas of the brass frame Griswold & Gunnison Confederate revolver, Dragoon style half round barrel. They did not make a brass frame Schneider & Glassick octagon barrel revolver. This is what Blue Book refers to as an Augusta revolver.

Fingers McGee
October 31, 2008, 11:25 PM
Here's an Augusta being auctioned in Dec:

http://www.rockislandauction.com/view_item.aspx?aid=45&iid=227179

This thred got me curious, so I got my copy of Firearms of the Confederacy out and did a little memory refreshing.

FM

GNLaFrance
November 3, 2008, 01:05 AM
Can the frame be battered and "stretched" by shooting full-power loads (and oversize balls will help too)? Sure it can. The real question is, are you willing to spend the copious amounts of time and money for lead, powder and caps, and the time cleaning and maintaining it in shooting condition, to fire the thousands of rounds needed to get it to that point? I doubt it. The frame battering and stretching is certainly possible, but for all practical purposes no one needs to worry about it. For $75 you got a good deal and a nice fun gun. Pay no attention to the gloom-and-doomers. Enjoy it!

mykeal
November 3, 2008, 06:00 AM
It certainly does NOT take 'thousands of rounds'. And it's not 'gloom and doom' to warn against abuse.

poko
November 3, 2008, 10:02 AM
Smokin Gun, I sent you a PM.

Smokin_Gun
November 3, 2008, 05:23 PM
Poko where's that thread you speak of???

SG


CSA Schnieder & Glassick
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/09-06-08_1511.jpg



My new custom made SGsHawk by Thumper, one a the Old Coots at voy.com/60048/ our Blacksmith of the bunch.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/SGsHawk3.jpg

poko
November 3, 2008, 05:38 PM
SG, sent you an email of the post.

long rider
November 3, 2008, 06:58 PM
Well put mykeal, this france does not have much knowledge
on bp pistols, i think we all know that a brass frame pistol
will not out last a steel frame, that was my point, and it
does not take countless rounds to put it out of shape,
i put two brass frame revolvers out of shape by only 25grns
bp and 454 rb, all i was saying that a steel frame will out last
a brass frame, steel is worth the xtra bucks for years of fun:rolleyes:

Smokin_Gun
November 3, 2008, 07:00 PM
2008-09-06, 02:42 AM

Oquirrh, I got a 2001 [BP] Pietta .44 brasser $125 shipped and an Armi San Paolo(ASP) before the name changed to Euroarms 1986[AP] 5" 1851 Navy .36 $150 shipped. Good condition.

Others too just ask,

SG

.44 Pietta
[IMG]http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/09-03-08BOArmsport 1551 Navy .44 steel $160 shipped

1862 Police .36 5.5"bbl $250 shipped

All are in good stasy.




SG

ABOVE^^^^^

Thank you Admin

GNLaFrance
November 3, 2008, 10:24 PM
It certainly does NOT take 'thousands of rounds'.

Fine, then let me modify that to, "It takes several times more rounds than your typical shooter will put through a typical BP revolver." Happy now?

And it's not 'gloom and doom' to warn against abuse.

Movement of the goalposts noted.

Hawg
November 4, 2008, 05:18 AM
I don't know how many rounds it would take. Never fooled with one. Never saw one or a pic of one with a stretched frame but I have seen pics of a few of them with the imprint of the cylinder ratchet deeply imbedded in the recoil shield. Don't know how many rounds it took or the loads used but it's enough to keep me away from any .44 with a brass frame. There must be a logical reason why no original .44's were made with brass frames and I suspect it's because they knew they wouldn't hold up.

Hoss Fly
November 4, 2008, 07:35 PM
Wat Hawg said- Stay away from brass framed 44's UNLESS you'll just shoot it ocasionally with lite - moderate loads :rolleyes:

pohill
November 4, 2008, 09:31 PM
This is the recoil shield on an older Spiller & Burr that I have. I have no idea what kind of a load was used or for how long to do this damage (and this is only .36) The 2nd pic is a High Standard Griswold & Gunnison .36. I use 15 grs of BP.
http://i37.tinypic.com/2rcamnr.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/2i2047.jpg

timgd
November 4, 2008, 09:55 PM
I don't know about stretching a brass frame but I destroyed a wedge and deformed the slot in a steel framed .36 cal with heavy loads.