PDA

View Full Version : Training - Shooting from a moving vehicle


Sigma 40 Blaster
September 1, 2008, 10:23 AM
I shot an IDPA regional match this weekend, they had some good scenarios set up (of varying levels of 'practicality' but a lot of FUN) but they had one that took the cake. Shooting from a moving vehicle.

I don't know exactly how long the stage was but there were bad guy targets spread out along a 30 yard or so stretch, separated by barriers that had to be engaged with two shots each. At some point you also had to reload due to the number of targets. The driver didn't hit the gas, just allowed the car to roll in drive.

I was just curious as to how many people have been able to participate in an activity such as this. This was by far the worst stage I shot and I learned a lot about shooting from non-conventional positions from this and a couple of other stages.

I don't know about the "tactical" value of this exercise but it adds a couple of different twists into shooting as I know it.

Threefeathers
September 1, 2008, 10:45 AM
For me it was an M151, M113, Humvee, Deuce and a Half. It is an interesting experience.
Three of us who served together did it as a drill, we set it up in the old range behind the Mountain in Bisbee and moved a car backwards as one drove and the other two fired as if we were getting out.

I brought this up at pistolsmith.com under drills and was castigated even though Stevan A. Camp came to my defense. Frack that group of elitist non-combat experienced no it alls.

In today's world firing from a moving vehicle is a realistic skill.

pax
September 1, 2008, 10:51 AM
I see no real value in this one and can't imagine how anyone except a military person might have a legitimate use for it.

If the vehicle is moving, you have the means to get away from the threat. If you'd rather eliminate the threat entirely using deadly force, you also have at your disposal a very large, deadly, and fast-moving weapon -- the vehicle itself.

(Edited to add -- it does sound fun and if done safely I see no harm in it. But the question was whether it was of practical value or not.)

pax

ringworm
September 1, 2008, 10:55 AM
remember this...
NEGATIVE LEAD.
;)

Dean C
September 1, 2008, 11:12 AM
This seems a bit unusual and not something the normal defensive training should include.
Something like a "drive by" shooting range. To me that ranks right up there with "hard alcohol and handguns night" at the ball park. :eek:

dean

Sigma 40 Blaster
September 1, 2008, 01:26 PM
There aren't many practical situations most of us would use stuff like this in, I see the value for military training, possibly police or SWAT training, but not so sure in the civilian world. In extreme TEOTWAWKI events I could see this but in depth discussion of that would get this thread locked pretty fast.

Let me add that this (and other elaborate stages) was done in the safest possible manner, the people at Thunder Gun Range in Conroe took the greatest pains to ensure that these elaborate scenarios were safe and a lot of fun. The match director and safety officers emphasized safety, procedure, and fun. It was my first regional match and a huge success from my observations of the shooters despite it being a pretty hot day with a hurricane brewing 500 or so miles away.

From a pure shooting perspective this exercise emphasized my greatest weakness which is balance and maintaining upper body positive positioning in shooting from awkward positions. Shooting sitting and even laying down is a lot easier for me than shooting sitting and leaning sideways...it's in the same category as shooting while kneeling and making appropriate use of low cover.

I'm 6'5" 320 pounds, trying to appropriately use low cover as I would in a "real situation" is pretty awkward as most low cover seems to be about 3 feet high. Same applies here as I was actually trying to conceal as much of my upper body as I could.

It was an interesting exercise. I'm not sure that a self defense course would be an appropriate venue for this skill but if you have the space and personnel to maintain a safe controlled environment it was a learning experience for most of us.

ThePBM
September 1, 2008, 01:28 PM
i would rather practice shooting AT a moving vehicle. you know, popping tires, hitting drivers, exploding gas tanks. j/k about that last thing :D

4V50 Gary
September 1, 2008, 01:32 PM
I think it's important if you're a bodyguard in a third world country where there's a lot of kidnapping. Here in America, it's only the gangbangers who do it. Look at them wrong and bang! they shoot you. We've had quite a number of people shot because of they (inadvertantly) got someone upset over their driving.

Threefeathers
September 1, 2008, 01:41 PM
I disagree but it shold be done only where safe and controlled.
Scenarios:
1. Getting out of a car jack situation.
2. Execting a neighborhood you got off the freeway (405) by accident.
3. Living near the border, coming out of the Bright Spot at night and 3 hombres try to cut you off as you try to get to the highway.

Having fired in a controlled situation would give you an edge in any of these situations.

I remember the first time I fired an M-16 on the SCQC how off I was. After that I learned to judge speed of vehicle with aim.

Set up with close friends, control the drill, use a stationary target and see how you do. Body guards, this should be a monthly drill for you.

Sigma 40 Blaster
September 1, 2008, 02:29 PM
I had thought about evading a car jacking, being in the middle of a semi-riot scene (the trucker that got caught in the LA riots) but never thought about this from a bodyguard perspective. Especially in other countries (sometimes I forget the WWW part of the Internet) but even in this one, thanks for a practical civilian application.

I think it's just another experience or tactic that most of us will never have to use but was a lot of fun to do if done in a controlled environment with the appropriate safety considerations.

Tim Burke
September 1, 2008, 06:16 PM
I've done it at Thunder Ranch (TX) in DHG 3. I think it has limited utility, but it was interesting. I did learn some things doing it that were not intuitive.

kraigwy
September 1, 2008, 09:59 PM
I shot a multi gun match at Gurnsey put on by the Colorado Muliti Gun Club.

One portion of the match was where we had to drive down a canyon in a Humvee shooting at pop up targets. Hardest part was finding them and they required two hits each to bring down. it was a kick in the butt.

The scary part is that it was too much like a flash back to when I was riding Shotgun in a 2 1/2 ton going to FireBase Bastogne in 68 and we had to drive through an ambush.

In Ed McGivens book Fast and Fancy Revolver shooting, he has a section on shooting from running boards.

http://photos.imageevent.com/kraigwy/multigunmatch/websize/hummer%201.jpg

Hardtarget
September 4, 2008, 06:39 PM
This seems like an extension of shooting while heading for cover.

I feel its not likely, but, if you're trying to get away from a really bad situation and the bad guys are shooting...it might be good to have them do a little dodging. You know, do your best to spoil their aim. :D

Its just practice and we hope acedemic!

Mark.

halo2304
September 4, 2008, 08:59 PM
I think three scenarios that would be better for the CCWer to try would be 1) firing at a moving vehicle while standing still, 2) firing at a moving vehicle while moving for cover and 3) firing at a moving vehicle while in a moving vehicle.

There was a story in the recent issue of Combat Handguns where a guy tried to pass another car on the road. The other car wouldn't let him pass and wouldn't let him move back into the right lane when there was on-comming traffic. He pulled out a 1911 Commander from his glove box and convinced the other driver to leave him alone. While he didn't have to fire a shot, he very well could have had to.

Sometimes you also get some whole "A" on your bumper. If they tried to run you off the road, could you send some lead through the back window while keeping your car on the road? I've never had to shoot while driving but it is something I've thought about because I know that my car is not the fastest thing on the road. I can't afford a Koenigsegg! :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CRzXoWTka8

Hemicuda
September 4, 2008, 09:33 PM
I've asked this before... What EXACTLY does my 6000 pound 4X4 pickup weigh in grains?

If I'm in a vehicle... then I'll use said vehicle to either kill the SOB, or flee... depends on the scenario... but I don't think I'd bother with a handgun in that scenario...

PzGren
September 4, 2008, 10:30 PM
I had tried it with a friend just for fun - and it was fun.

Pat-inCO
September 4, 2008, 11:09 PM
I see no real value in this one and can't imagine how anyone except a military person might have a legitimate use for it.
Well, perhaps as a mall ninja or possibly gang banger.

Other than those, I AGREE!

R1145
September 5, 2008, 12:00 AM
I'm sure the blooper video will end up on YouTube...

threegun
September 5, 2008, 06:39 AM
If the vehicle is moving, you have the means to get away from the threat. If you'd rather eliminate the threat entirely using deadly force, you also have at your disposal a very large, deadly, and fast-moving weapon -- the vehicle itself.


Pax, What about a scenario which the bad guy is both mobile and armed?

I have very limited experience shooting from a moving vehicle but only at stationary targets. I believe that my biggest need would be to fire from a moving at a moving vehicle that is firing at me and not allowing my escape. This scenario possibility increasing with the rise in gang activity and the trend toward robbery and attacks by BG's on motorists.

Sparks2112
September 5, 2008, 08:34 AM
I've asked this before... What EXACTLY does my 6000 pound 4X4 pickup weigh in grains?

42,000,000 GR's. I think.

Murdock
September 5, 2008, 09:12 AM
There is nothing wrong with the quest to learn and to know. If somebody wants to know how a firearm will operate in a zero-G environment while using night vision and sighting through a hand-held mirror around a corner, I have no problem with that. It's just simple curiosity. Keep it safe, and there's no issue.

Threefeathers
September 6, 2008, 03:18 PM
OK real scenario, several the serial killers recently have fired from from vehicles. The two in VA, and the two in AZ, both shoot and scoot.

pax
September 6, 2008, 03:25 PM
OK real scenario, several the serial killers recently have fired from from vehicles. The two in VA, and the two in AZ, both shoot and scoot.

Yes.

And this shows the need for good guys (who are not cops) to know how to shoot from moving vehicles -- how?

pax

shooter_john
September 6, 2008, 05:30 PM
I've done it in officer rescue drills (SWAT training on controlled 360 range), both at high and slower speeds. At high speeds, GOOD LUCK is about all I can say, but at slower speeds, you could probably get pretty good with a lot practice.

+10 to mastering the negative lead... You learn tha very quickly.

On a side note, an AR is LOUD inside a Crown Vic!!!:eek:

PzGren
September 7, 2008, 12:52 AM
And this shows the need for good guys (who are not cops) to know how to shoot from moving vehicles -- how?

Pax, it does not show the need but my ISSF and Bullseye shooting skills are not needed for defensive purposes, either. They just cater to my vanity.

When I was shooting from the moving vehicle, it was mostly catering to the kid in me but besides it was an interesting experience - and experience is the best anitdote to ignorance.

Like a test how many times the trigger can be pulled in D/A in a given time.

pax
September 7, 2008, 09:46 AM
PzGren,

As I said in post #3, it does sound fun and if done safely I see no real harm in it. That's a different question from whether it has a practical value for an ordinary citizen, which was the question that started this thread.

As for the DA trigger pulls, there's a purpose. :) I'm still gathering factoids here & there....

pax

threegun
September 7, 2008, 06:07 PM
Pax, What about a scenario which the bad guy is both mobile and armed?

I have very limited experience shooting from a moving vehicle but only at stationary targets. I believe that my biggest need would be to fire from a moving at a moving vehicle that is firing at me and not allowing my escape. This scenario possibility increasing with the rise in gang activity and the trend toward robbery and attacks by BG's on motorists.

The possibilities are going up for sure.

12GaugeShuggoth
September 7, 2008, 07:32 PM
I've both practiced and used that particular skill on our farm, firing from the bed of a moving pickup. When a group of rabid pit bulls is roaming around looking for something to bite it's a nice skill to have IMO. There was a stretch where it seemed like every couple of months we'd encounter a rabid dog (many times pit bulls) wandering around on the farm.....no clue where they came from. Only one time did they make it up towards the house and attack any of our animals. We lost 6 chickens that afternoon, along with 3 12 gauge 00buckshot shells and 10 rounds of hollow-point .22 lr. Not sure but they definitely looked like fighting dogs IMO.

On a more tactical perspective, I could realistically see shooting back at armed opponents who are firing from cover (buildings, vehicles, barricades) in an urban riot setting. Then again, I'd just assume not to be in the urban setting to begin with, riot or not :)

PzGren
September 8, 2008, 06:57 AM
As for the DA trigger pulls, there's a purpose. I'm still gathering factoids here & there....

Pax,

I am looking forward to your report, always eager to learn and experiment.

I tried shooting from a moving vehicle before I moved to an unfriendly country where kidnappings are quite ordinairy.