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Saab1911
August 29, 2008, 06:51 PM
Do you remember the air war over Vietnam. The U.S. arrived with a lot
of long range missiles and no short range guns. But partly due to rules of
engagement, a lot of the air to air engagements were settled at short range.

Given rules of engagement of Self Defense or Home Defense situations, is
it a surprise that most shootings are at very short range?

So, isn't accuracy at 25 yards pretty much moot with regards to self defense
and home defense? How many rooms in your house are 25 yards wide?
None? I thought so.

So, we can pretty much rule out accuracy at 25 yards as irrelevant to
self defense and home defense. That doesn't mean you can't practice at
that distance to hone your skills, but choosing a weapon that is guaranteed
to group 5 rounds within 1" at 25 yards over another pistol that is guaranteed
to group 5 rounds within 2" at 25 yards even though the more accurate
pistol is four times as expensive and then using the accurate pistol for
home defense or self defense is kind of ridiculous. It's much better to choose
the less accurate pistol and then spend the money you save to buy practice
ammo. Also, getting yourself some training with the savings seems like
much wiser course.

Don't you think that if you shot a perp at 25 yards and the distance from
you and the perp at the time of the shooting is somehow known at your
trial (e.g. surveillance camera) that you'd be in big trouble unless the perp
was shooting at you from that range?

So, what is the maximum useable accuracy for a home defense or self defense
firearm? Again, we're not talking about match pistols or competition pistols.

Cheers,

Jae

Hkmp5sd
August 29, 2008, 06:59 PM
I think the idea is that if you can hit 25 yard COM shots all day long, the 10 to 20 foot shots in your house should be easy. If you CCW, a 25 yard shot isn't that dificult to imagine.

Why would you want to carry a less accurate handgun and limit your options?

If you need cheaper practice, get a .22LR for the range.

Saab1911
August 29, 2008, 07:08 PM
If you CCW, a 25 yard shot isn't that dificult to imagine.

Why would you want to carry a less accurate handgun and limit your options?


I don't see a perp yelling at me from across the parking lot to give him all
my money. Usually, the threat is much closer.

Also, some pistols which are uber accurate at 25 yards are not as reliable.
I'd rather have a gun which does not shoot as accurately at 25 yards but
functions flawlessly at close self defense distances which are effectively
dictated by rules of engagement.

It's like the military insisting on rifles with effective range of 1,000 yards
for 50 years. But only snipers effectively engaged their targets at 1,000 yards.
The normal grunt just sprayed and prayed. That's why all armies of the world
have gone to Assault Rifles, and arguably the best assault rifle is AK-47 which
is not accurate at all at 1,000 yards.

Cheers,

Jae

Brian Pfleuger
August 29, 2008, 07:24 PM
I don't think you'd EVER win a SD claim in court if the shot was at 25 yards or even close to that range, unless it was a bonafide gun fight.

I suspect that you would be suspect ;) if the shot was beyond 30 feet or so in most cases.

Hkmp5sd
August 29, 2008, 07:26 PM
I've got one. It's called a Glock 17 and I've been carrying it for over 20 years now. I can hit center of mass shots at 25 yards and punch out the 10 ring at 25 feet. It goes bang every time I pull the trigger.

Don't train for what you think might happen. Train for what can happen.

Saab1911
August 29, 2008, 07:38 PM
I've got one. It's called a Glock 17 and I've been carrying it for over 20 years now. I can hit center of mass shots at 25 yards and punch out the 10 ring at 25 feet. It goes bang every time I pull the trigger.

Don't train for what you think might happen. Train for what can happen.


Yes, today I shot my Glock 17 for the very first time. And, I shot out the
10 ring. It was completely gone. I only shot 50 rounds and the last few
rounds did not hit paper not because I missed but because there was no
paper left to hit in the 10 ring.

Compare that to a Les Baer which costs 4X as much and has a reputation
for being unreliable. Which is more appropriate for self defense and home
defense?

Nobody will ever win a regional or national bullseye match with a Glock.
But a lot of bullseye competitors use Les Baer 1911s.

You see, you were agreeing with me all this time. :p

Brian Pfleuger
August 29, 2008, 07:40 PM
Yes, today I shot my Glock 17 for the very first time. And, I shot out the
10 ring. It was completely gone. I only shot 50 rounds and the last few
rounds did not hit paper not because I missed but because there was no
paper left to hit in the 10 ring.

Um, Jae, your inglockdrination may have gone overboard if you are buying more Glocks but can only afford one target.;)

Saab1911
August 29, 2008, 07:42 PM
Um, Jae, your inglockdrination may have gone overboard if you are buying more Glocks but can only afford one target.


Trust me. I'm not the one you should worry about. PbP is thinking about
hooking and even trying to convince himself that he only really needs just
one kidney.

Brian Pfleuger
August 29, 2008, 07:45 PM
PbP is thinking about
hooking and even trying to convince himself...

It's different though, he posts some mighty fine pictures of his obsessions.:)

Scattergun Bob
August 29, 2008, 08:14 PM
Why do we practice at 25yards?

Because "the fight is never what you THINK it will be. It is gonna be what it's gonna be, the only variable is what YOU are going to do." Thanks Clint :cool:

I am often chided for quoting Mean gunfight stats. I do recognize the logic of training and arming for "what you think" will happen. The problem is as long as we are defensive fighters, the OTHER GUY will get to dictate when and where and how far away the gunfight will be.

By the way, I would hope at 25 yards, there are other tools on our "belt" besides shooting. How about maneuver and evade!

Good Luck & Be Safe

Saab1911
August 29, 2008, 08:30 PM
Why do we practice at 25yards?

Because "the fight is never what you THINK it will be. It is gonna be what it's gonna be, the only variable is what YOU are going to do." Thanks Clint



Yeah, but if one practices the unlikely situation exclusively, chances are
that one is going to be SOL when an actual self defense situation arises.

I never said that one should never practice at 25 yards or 50 yards. I said
that 25 yard accuracy should not dictate one's choice of firearm or choice
of what to practice.

Scattergun Bob
August 29, 2008, 08:40 PM
agreeded, remember I am suggesting that we do something besides shooting at that range.

The quote is from Clint Smith, I just like it:)

Good Luck & Be Safe

Borch
August 29, 2008, 08:58 PM
I believe I remember reading somewhere that the vast majority, something like 85%, of police involved shootings happen at distances of 7 to 10 yards, and I really don't see how civilian SD/HD shootings would differ from that statistic. Just think about it.

Is there any BG in the world that's going to declare his intentions from 25 yards? If so he's probably not very good at being a BG.

If the BG does declare bad intentions from 25 yds, or even 15 yds, wouldn't you try to evade and escape before turning to a shooting solution? With a 45 to 75 ft head start I'm fairly certain I could get to my car or to a place of relative safety before the BG, even at 50 lbs over weight as I am.

Is there any place in your home that is 25 yds long? There dam sure ain't in my house.

If you are in an urban setting, can you reliably see what is in a particular person's hands from 75 ft when he's surrounded by other people, non combatant people at that? I know my visual acuity isn't that good and I have 20/20 vision.

I personally think 25 yds is an absolutely ridiculous distance when it comes to any SD/HD shooting situation. I don't even train at distances greater than 15 to 20 yds anymore. When I get out to 20 or more it's usually because one of my buddies is trying to outdo me, and at over 20 yds that's not hard. I also know that even the LEO's in my area have stopped qualifying at 25 yds because it's simply unrealistic. The longest distance they shoot for purposes of qualification is 20 yds. Civilian carry permit holders aren't required to shoot any further than 10 yds in this state, at least we weren't when I got mine. The only time I can see an application for 25 yd handgun shooting is in the military on the open battle field where everyone you may shoot at is an enemy combatant.

Scattergun Bob
August 29, 2008, 09:23 PM
You said "I personally think 25 yds is an absolutely ridiculous distance when it comes to any SD/HD shooting situation."
Unless your enemy dictates, open parking lot, 26 yards, no cover! Then practicing at 25 yrds has some merit.
"the OTHER GUY will get to dictate when and where and how far away the gunfight will be."


You Said "from 25 yds, or even 15 yds, wouldn't you try to evade and escape before turning to a shooting solution?"

Exactly, "By the way, I would hope at 25 yards, there are other tools on our "belt" besides shooting" escape sounds real good!

Good Luck & Be Safe:)

fm2
August 29, 2008, 09:43 PM
Saab1911, PM sent.

soccergod04
August 30, 2008, 12:32 PM
I won't be able to legally carry on campus in NC, but I can foresee a potential 25 yd shot in a large auditorium with an active shooter like VA Tech. The auditoriums are huge.

What about in a theatre? They're big and you can actually carry there. A mall? Yeah, if you're that far away you should probably just leave, but what if your significant other/child/friend are in a changing room while you shop on the other side of the store? Do you just leave them? A 25 yd shot isn't that unthinkable.

Borch
August 30, 2008, 12:46 PM
There's always going to be exceptions and "what if" situations, but the numbers don't lie. The chance of a shooting incident occurring inside the 10 yd range is much, much greater than at 25 yds or more. With all the active shooter cases in the past few years I can see possible 25 yd shots in a mall or a corridor at a school. But with that being said, I would not be taking long shots like that with a bunch of non combatants around. Especially in a high stress situation where you are trading fire with the BG and your fine motor skills are out the window and your capacity to aim precisely is greatly diminshed. In the unlikely possibility that you are in a mall or a school or a theater and there is no one else around that you might possibly accidentally kill or wound and the BG is already shooting at you then, yes, a 25 yd shot may be appropriate.

ringworm
August 30, 2008, 12:49 PM
:confused:how big is your house?

NickySantoro
August 30, 2008, 01:03 PM
My 1911 house gun has been "regulated", as in the correct interpretation of "a well regulated militia", to shoot POA/POI at 25 feet. That's pretty much my interior limits. If I had to go outside, I'd bring the 12 gauge and the AR.

ringworm
August 30, 2008, 01:23 PM
im not going outside and im not looking for a reason to shoot someone. as long as my kids are safe you can take the TV the car keys, whatever. Im not ready to put my family through seeing me kill someone over a TV.
You think that your gonna look like some hero?
Do you really want your kids to know what thier dad is capable of.
its like this...
My rambo days are over. I did the USMC and the LEO thing. Im not hiding throwing stars behind picture frames and running out of the bedroom w/ a tricked out AR.
Most criminals are not advanced lockpicks. If one is high tech and stealthy enough to walk past that black crown vic in the driveway, pic the lock and enter my home without alerting the dog and advance on my bedroom door then i want to know why he's breaking in my house instead of the bank.

Hook686
August 30, 2008, 01:42 PM
It seems to me that some folks put the cart before the horse. Maybe they have a reason for this. I picked my personal defense handgun and I practice at 25 yards. I did not pick the handgun in order to practice at 25 yards, I picked it based upon its size, reliability, caliber and sights. It shoots very nicely at 25 yards, but is no 'Bullseye' handgun.

What is your trip concerning what other folks do ?

Hard Ball
August 30, 2008, 03:27 PM
"So, isn't accuracy at 25 yards pretty much moot with regards to self defense
and home defense? :

Of course it is.

Threefeathers
August 30, 2008, 04:42 PM
I just drilled 250 rounds at 25 meters for several reasons, one, when I shoot the 7, 10, 15 meter targets my groups have gotten much tighter. Next, in my area i may have to nail critter with no legs at that range before it gets my grand kids or even dog. The farther i am from jake no legs the better I like it.

fm2
August 30, 2008, 07:20 PM
I am pretty sure Tom Given's relays a story of one of his students winning a in gunfight and the distance was about 25 yards.

It's a good idea to practice accuracy at that distance.

BillCA
August 30, 2008, 07:48 PM
"So, isn't accuracy at 25 yards pretty much moot with regards to self defense and home defense? :

No, not necessarily.

If you limit "self-defense" strictly to yourself and those within your immediate vicinity (a few steps), the probably.

Where 25 yard shots might be necessary;
- "Defense of another": Where the other person being victimized is on the far side of a barrier you can't climb over - e.g. a chain link fence.

- Where a person outside your home (or another person's home) is preparing to use a Molotov cocktail and it's not even 5pm yet.

- The obvious: You are under fire from someone 25 yards away.

Yellowfin
August 30, 2008, 08:06 PM
^ Add also someone attacking from a garage, driveway, up or down stairs, or back yard.

Tuckahoe
August 30, 2008, 10:37 PM
In police academy they taught us that most shootings occur between three to five yards with two to three shots fired total. At that distance reliable is more important than accurate.

Jermtheory
August 31, 2008, 01:08 AM
If you limit "self-defense" strictly to yourself and those within your immediate vicinity (a few steps), the probably.

Where 25 yard shots might be necessary;
- "Defense of another": Where the other person being victimized is on the far side of a barrier you can't climb over - e.g. a chain link fence.

- Where a person outside your home (or another person's home) is preparing to use a Molotov cocktail and it's not even 5pm yet.

- The obvious: You are under fire from someone 25 yards away.

exactly.

for the first example i would say no barrier would even be necessarry other than space and the lack of time to close it.


if you're ever in position to need to fire at 25 yards or more you can just yell statistics at the threat.:rolleyes:

if we're simply playing the odds,where do you draw the line?odds are you wont need your weapon for self-defense anyway.

maybe being fired on from 100 yards out,by some meth head with a shotgun,who thought i was snooping arround his "lab",has skewed my view of things.i was in the middle of a field with no cover in sight,wearing a full leg brace from a injured knee,and i thought the trailer he came from was abandoned(sure looked it).i dont even know if he was trying to hit me,or just scare me off.but he was hitting close enough for dirt that got kicked up to hit me at one point.

i would have attempted a shot if i had been carrying at the time(it was actually the event which caused me to never go without since).if nothing else it may have had a negative effect on his accuracy and/or his interest.

...ntm i have 2 bad knees and out running anyone is unlikely.

yes...the odds say closer is much more likely,but 25 yards isnt that far at all.it is indeed very possible for someone to present a threat from that range or even much further.

i know the stats didnt make me feel any better at the time.

"just relax,this shouldnt be happening"

i see no down side in being as effective as possible with your chosen weapon.

shaman
September 1, 2008, 08:34 AM
new wife shows up in the marriage with a little taurus snubby in 38. she had never shot it.

ive got her working on drills with the pistol practically touching the paper.
we do one target and two target drills.
draw and two for first, two for second with one left while she is backing away.

one target draw and four then back away with one left in the gun.

im no defence expert of course and this is the best i could think up for her with this little pistol. with five rounds of 38 special my thinking is pretty much two targets max with one round reserve.

whenever we get back to texas we absolutely have to get her something else.

she is responding well to the ar i bought her but so far it is just bench paper punching.

today(its just dawn now) ive decided its time for her to start some simple multiple target stuff with the ar.

25 yards is a long long shot with a pistol. i normally practice at 7 or so with the 25 kept to a minimum(45 ammo aint cheap)

i try to make every shot a good shot, close or far. as time passes im gettin quicker with the 45.(its a para p13)

freakshow10mm
September 1, 2008, 08:59 AM
I train longer distances to work on trigger control. 90% of my training distance is within 10-12 feet.

kraigwy
September 1, 2008, 09:08 AM
I do a lot of shooting at 25 plus yards. What we seem to be leaving out is the confidence factor. Shooting my 642 had really increased my conidence in that little pistol, as my confidence goes up my close range shooting gets better.

I have another problem here. I live out in the country. I have critters, coyotes, foxes and domestic dogs trying to get my chickens. Yeah I like to keep a rifle loaded and handy but its not always the case. I might (and have) had to use a pistol to discourage critters from eatin my chickens at 25 yards or more.

I need the confidence that practicing at 25 + yards even for my little 642. I also carry my Model 28 Smith in my truck wanting to pop every coyote I see. I like the ideal of being able to shoot a revolver at longer ranges.

ringworm
September 1, 2008, 10:48 AM
tell me how you plan to justify shooting a person at 25 yards and calling that defense.

the percentage of times in which that improbable scenario would occure is so miniscule as to not even register.

Anyone who engages a target at 25 yards with a handgun is going to be held liable for those misses.
In a static course of fire with calm nerves very few shooters can engage a charlie size target w/ scoreable accurace.
You think thats going to improve in an actual shoot-out?
so while you blasting away at a perp 25 yards away whos getting hit with your misses?
#1 improbable
#2 irresponsible

Glenn E. Meyer
September 1, 2008, 12:31 PM
There are work environments with building spaces and hallways that easily reach 25 yards or longer. My office opens to such a space.

It is conceivable that one could enter a conflict in such a work space. Of course, one might try to seek cover and avoid, but I can easily see having to engage in such a large space.

Thus the initial conjecture might be relevant in home but not at some work places.

There was an AF military police officer who stopped a rampage shooter with a shot at 75 yards using an M9. Unlikely perhaps but not outside the range. Training just for the mean ignores the chance of the extreme situation. You should be able to get around in a person sized target at some distance. The mean isn't what always happens.

Jermtheory
September 1, 2008, 12:49 PM
tell me how you plan to justify shooting a person at 25 yards and calling that defense.


multiple legitimate examples have already been given.i just gave a first hand account of where i feel i would have been justified taking a shot at 100 yards(although it would have been more for psychological affect than anything).

or how about when i take my wifes ankle biter out in the middle of the night...

i see an armed man breaking into my grandparents house about 50 yards away.you think im going to sneek up over half that distance before calling them out(or hope im a better shot and keep as much distance as possible).?...or what if im spotted half way?

something like could never happen.:rolleyes:

dont tell me to go back inside,call the police,and wait for 30 minutes to an hour either.

the percentage of times in which that improbable scenario would occure is so miniscule as to not even register.


again...if you're ever in position to need to fire at 25 yards or more you can just yell statistics at the threat.

In a static course of fire with calm nerves very few shooters can engage a charlie size target w/ scoreable accurace.


i guess i'll take that as a compliment.

another reason why my carry gun is a full size M&P-9.not a J-frame or some subcompact...i can put shots in a 6" target all day at 25 yards.

i must live in a world where 25 yards is measured differently from some of you.ive seen people hit with thrown bricks at 20+ yards,yet somehow its a great abyss in some of your minds.you let some statistics override common sense and the obvious fact that a legitimate threat can be presented from ranges outside of contact distance.

it may be unlikely to engange a threat at that range,but im having a hard time understand the problem with being capable of doing so if needed.

i just read a story about an officer in CA who stopped a shooter at 100~ yards with his sidearm...wonder if he thought he'd ever need to do such an incredible thing.yes im well aware there's a difference between LEO and CC...but the point stands.how likely was it for him to need to make that shot with his pistol,even as an LEO?

Scattergun Bob
September 1, 2008, 01:00 PM
You Said: #1 improbable, #2 irresponsible , I think you are a little over the top here. No one advocated that you do not have a responsibility to control your rounds. With most modern handgun projectiles passing thru human bodies what guarantee that a close range you will not damage non-combatants?

As far as improbable, inside our homes, I agree. Those of us who carry during our daily business, NOT so improbable. My associates and I worked very hard to be accurate at extended range. True, as peace officers we had a obligation to do so. However, that experience taught me that a quick prone 25 yrd shot is not as hard as YOU believe it to be. Many can accomplish that goal.

It would be nice to say the WE KNOW all of the variables that will will occur that influence the outcome of a gun fight. However, the sad fact is that we know very little of the next event.

Above our briefing room door was this sign;

THE TWO QUESTIONS NO ONE CAN ANSWER;

WHAT WILL THE STIMULUS TO FIGHT LOOK LIKE

WHAT WILL IT TAKE TO WIN THE NEXT ENGAGEMENT

I get tired of saying this, hopefully you all will get tired of hearing it and stop arguing about it. As a defensive shooter, we give up much, the OTHER GUY will get to dictate when and where and how far away the gunfight will be, we will respond to that threat as best we can.

I am very hopeful that you like me have other tools on your belt besides shooting to help win an engagment past the caculated average gunfight distance.

Good Luck & Be Safe

Jermtheory
September 1, 2008, 01:56 PM
oops...

looks like my targets are 8" not 6".

and this...

ive seen people hit with thrown bricks at 20+ yards

should have read...

"ive seen people hit with thrown bricks at 20~ yards"

didnt want to edit actual content so long after posting.

shaman
September 1, 2008, 04:51 PM
i remember long long years ago we used to set up five gallon buckets across the field and shoot at em with my old taurus 92. i was always amazed at how many times we (brother an i) could hit the bucket.

did same thing with hi-standard longhorn double nine revolver(that was lots harder).

i agree that going 25 yards makes ya aim the pistol.

i also think that anyone who has their handgun for self protection( as opposed to pure target) should spend the majority of their time at 3-7 yards.

im learning myself that it is really not easy to get a pistol out, get it on target and get two rounds off and hit the target.

i know that all things can be learned and so i try and try.

BillCA
September 2, 2008, 12:45 AM
In a static course of fire with calm nerves very few shooters can engage a charlie size target w/ scoreable accurace.
You think thats going to improve in an actual shoot-out?
so while you blasting away at a perp 25 yards away whos getting hit with your misses?
#1 improbable
#2 irresponsible
I disagree. I used to shoot the old PPC silhoutte course and 25 yards was not considered a long distance shot. 50 yards was much tougher to make good scores on. Hitting the "Charlie size target" was not hard at all, the hard part was keeping them inside the 10-ring.

In actual shoot-outs, police are sometimes called upon to shoot at 25-50 yards. Yes, they miss, but they can also be accurate enough to down bad guys.

With a snubbie or compact auto, 25 yards may be the limit for most folks to hit with any accuracy. The guns are capable of making good hits, it's up to the shooter to place them.

Nnobby45
September 2, 2008, 03:08 AM
So, we can pretty much rule out accuracy at 25 yards as irrelevant to
self defense and home defense...........



I've always been amused at those who consider the average gunfight distance the standard they'll have to meet should it happen to them. Averages take in all the extremes. While they apply most of the time---not always.

Or the number of shots they'll need based on more averages.

Or the contention that their range ability is somehow related to fighting for their life under more stress than most people have ever experienced.

I've seen pro basketball players who can sink 10 of 10 freethrows in practice, with regularity, choke. With nothing more than a game on the line. Same for pitchers who need that one big pitch, or the field goal kicker who muffed a 30 yarder (like tonight when UCLA beat Tennessee in OT:D). They choked with less adrenaline in their system than we'd have in a gunfight.

If I knew in advance what the circumstances would be I'd stay home that day, or, if unavoidable, be appropriately armed.

evan1293
September 2, 2008, 03:49 AM
A lot of the 'old bullseye mentality' is still around these days when it comes to training for handgun fights. 10,15,25 yards are not at all typical distances that handgun fights occur at for the ccw holder. Even police shootings tend to occur within 6 feet. That being said, I find it interesting that most people I see at the range are training at distance of greater than 7 yards. I've been somewhat turned off by IDPA for this reason because most of the shots that I've been required to take have been at 10-15yards. Many of these shots seem to include no shoot 'hostages,' that would be utterly ridiculous if attempted in the real life stress of a gunfight. While a true test of marksmanship skill, they do little to resemble the reality of most gunfights.

Marksmanship is one thing, and is fun and important to become profficient at, but the reality is that gunfights happen in our comfort zones not way down range. While a 15 or 25 yard group the size of a quarter is something quite impressive, it really isn't going to help us when someone is threatening us at distances so close, we can smell his bad breathe.

If any of you have read "On Killing" by Dave Grossman you'll know that there are many problems that arise when facing an adversary that is right in front of us. Having to see a threat's face and then react with deadly force is a hugely difficult task according to Grossman. Heart rates around 175 bpm, tunnel vision, auditory exlusion, even the voiding of the bowels can occur when a human is threatened at such personal distances. These issues are a far cry from trying to keep 5 shots in the 10 ring at 25 yards. Training with gross motor skills, shooting with retention, and learning to shoot fast are far more important skills in my opinon.

Its great to be skilled with your handgun. Be able to make those 25 and 50 yard COM shots. But I wouldn't waste a lot of time and ammo shooting at those distances. I'd spend more time at contact distances out to about 20' because history tells us thats where most fights happen.

Flyboy_451
September 2, 2008, 09:29 AM
I find it somewhat disturbing that there are those who feel that practice at distances greater than 10-15 is not beneficial. While it is quite unlikely that you would have to engage a threat at 25 yards, the ability to accurately place shots at long distance can greatly enhance short range accuracy. Longer ranges force you to focus on the fundamentals of shooting. Longer ranges also serve as an effective measuring tool for your own abilities with a given firearm.

Long range shots are by no means common in self defense, but the ability to place a shot accurately at 25 yards, or even greater, should not be discounted. One thing that anyone engaged in a life threatening situation should be trained to do is to place distance between yourself and the threat. It may be that no hits are scored by either party at close range, yet the perpetrator does not disengage and you are not able to safely flee. While this is not likely to be the case, it is a possibility. Distance favors the marksman, and the odds of survival are proportional to your abilities. Training only for short range engagements limits your abilities and could place you at a disadvantage. This is opposite to the very reason that we carry firearms for defensive use. In taking responsibility for the safety of yourselves and your loved ones, do you not feel it necessary to be as proficient as possible with your chosen equipment? I have often said that I would rather have a gun and not need it, than to need it and not have it. But having the gun does not equl being able to use it effectively.


DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO CREATE ADVANTAGES!!!

buzz_knox
September 2, 2008, 10:01 AM
Take some time and look at the distances involved in our everyday life. You'll find that 25 yards is nothing. Does your office building have any hallways or corridors? I bet many of them are farther than 25 yards. Your parking lot is larger than that if it holds more than a few cars. How about the grocery store you shop at, or the mall, or the department store?

Statistics say that most everyone who carries a weapon for self-defense will not be required to ever discharge it. Carrying ammunition is thus hedging your bets against the day when the averages turn against you. So, why train with the expectations that on that day, the averages will run your way?

Glenn E. Meyer
September 2, 2008, 10:09 AM
This thread again demonstrates that folks don't understand statistics. The average is not guaranteed to happen most of the time. It depends on distributional shape.

One of the curses of the gun fight world is a lack of knowledge of how to understand these kind of human factor situations. The methodology is widely known in all kinds of other emergency situations. But not here - just anecdotes and misuse of the concept of 'average'.

How about this - the average man is about 5'9 - is it a waste to spar with some guy who is 6'2?

Brian Pfleuger
September 2, 2008, 10:20 AM
...folks don't understand statistics.


That may be the truest statement yet. Standard deviation is very important in determining the usefulness of the number that is "average". People ignore everything except that single number we call "average".

Keltyke
September 2, 2008, 12:54 PM
So, we can pretty much rule out accuracy at 25 yards as irrelevant to self defense and home defense.

Not necessarily. Practice hitting COM at 25 yards and you won't even have to think at 5.

Distance of engagement depends on what the BG is armed with. Again, he must have means, intent, and opportunity.

If someone with a knife says he's gonna kill you, and he's across the parking lot, he has means (knife) and intent (statement), but not opportunity (too far away). If you shoot at this distance, you might be hard-pressed to defend your actions in court. As soon as he's within knife throwing range, THEN you can engage. If he's armed with a rifle, you can engage as soon as you think you can hit him, since he now has the opportunity (rifle is a long distance weapon).

So, practice at long distance. Practice pulling and shooting from the hip from 3', too.

Brian Pfleuger
September 2, 2008, 12:58 PM
Not necessarily. Practice hitting COM at 25 yards and you won't even have to think at 5.

I compare it to my archery practice. I set my 20 yard pin and don't shoot a single arrow at that distance the rest of the year, practicing at 30 and 40 yards instead. Right before the season I shoot some arrows at 20 yards, since the vast majority of my deer have been at 20 yards or less, just to be sure. After all that longer range work, 20 yards is a joke.

BillCA
September 2, 2008, 11:51 PM
One also has to account for the types of incidents used to derive the "average distance". Many of these include police contacts. Seven yards happens to be the distance between the driver an the officer's car door (plus/minus a foot or two). It also happens to be the distance across the average family living room or recreation room where a lot of DV's (dom.violence) calls are handled.

For civilians, it's likely to be up close and personal. Shooting at 7-25 yards won't prepare you for that 3-8 foot encounter. Nor will it prepare you for handling the "contact" shooting where you're in physical contact with the perp.

There is benefit to training at all distances.

Other statistics show that gunfight with criminals are won by the good guys® the more distance increases. The BG's practice point shooting and close distance shooting but often lack the discipline to train for 15-25 yard shots.

Remember D + C = T & S
Distance plus Cover = Time & Safety.

Also remember that you will never have enough skill to beat your adversary's sudden acquisition of "dumb luck".

For those who see 25 yards as improbable, that distance is about equal to shooting across a 4-lane highway from curb to curb. I'd certainly like to be able to hit someone shooting from a window at that distance. Wouldn't you? Try measuring a 75-ft piece of string and measure from your doorknob to see how far way it is in your neighborhood. Swing it left and right to see how far down the street it is too.

Jermtheory
September 3, 2008, 12:10 AM
wouldnt even make it to the end of my driveway(which isnt long).

fm2
September 3, 2008, 03:12 PM
Training just for the mean ignores the chance of the extreme situation. You should be able to get around in a person sized target at some distance. The mean isn't what always happens.

Excellent point! It's a hell of a thing to find out YOU are the statistical outlier when its GO time.


I'm gonna stop saying I'm an average shooter and just go with " I'm a mean shooter. :p It just has a better ring to it.;)

Sarge
September 3, 2008, 03:25 PM
1. There are no 'rules' which won't be broken in a gunfight.

2. Your problem will be 'That SOB over THERE, who is trying to KILL me!"

3. Your solution is to hit him center and hard, wherever he is and until he goes down- before he can get that done.

4. The distance to 'over THERE' is determined after the dance is over- and is inconsequential to you, as long as you can avoid incoming and land the hits.

5. Expect (and train for) the worst- and then anything else will be a pleasant surprise.

Maximus856
September 4, 2008, 07:38 AM
It's like the military insisting on rifles with effective range of 1,000 yards
for 50 years. But only snipers effectively engaged their targets at 1,000 yards.
The normal grunt just sprayed and prayed.


Tell that to our guys in afhganyland.

-Max.

.300H&H
September 11, 2008, 11:35 PM
In regard to practical civilian self-defense with a handgun, I think people would be a lot better served by intensely practicing self-defense at very short ranges ie. 5yds instead of 25yds...and working on expanding their skills to longer ranges after gaining expertise at the short ranges.


Too often I think shooters do the reverse ie. a lot of practice at long ranges - 25yds. - and they get hung-up on accuracy at such ranges...but in the process they lightly practice short-range self-defense shooting only as a kind of afterthought.


One of the dangers of long range shooting is that it tends to reenforce a tactical mindset of using the weapon at a range that might be deemed illegal for most real self-defense situations. Shooting a stationary target at 25yds. is great for plinking and hunting, but it doesn't do much to help a person who needs to learn how to use a handgun against a hostile moving target that is only a few feet away. If the attacker is 25yds. away - then argueably there's no reason to be shooting at all; one ahould be getting away to safety - not shooting like a hunter.


Self-Defense is not 'hunting.' Hunting is predatory - and in a courtroom the difference between defending one's life and being a predator will indeed be explored and parsed. ;) Learning the strict limitations of drawing a weapon and shooting it within those limitations - is in a sense much more important than learning to push the envelop of range and 'stopping power.' Again the mouseguns and snubbies take centerstage.:D

buzz_knox
September 12, 2008, 07:58 AM
If the attacker is 25yds. away - then argueably there's no reason to be shooting at all; one ahould be getting away to safety - not shooting like a hunter.

So if the attacker is 24 yards away, you'll return fire? Do the bullets magically disappear when fired at 26 yards distance? The rounds I and others fired at a steel rifle plate this weekend certainly didn't. And amazingly enough, pretty much every round hit within minute of man even though the distance was approximately 75 yards away.

The 25 yard rule that so many seem to be adhering to is a perfect example of how the square range mentality will get you killed. It's based on the size of most pistol ranges, not reality. The question is not simply how far away the attacker is, but whether they have the ability to do you grave bodily harm or death, and whether they are utilizing said ability.

Escape and evasion is one tool in the toolbox. But people run into the same problem as do those who see the firearm as the only solution: they are locked into a type of thinking that can get them killed. Running away doesn't help if that 25 yards is all in a corridor and the individual is simply sending rounds down range. Unaimed or skip fire are both equally capable of putting rounds in your back.

NAKing
September 12, 2008, 08:54 AM
"Reasonable" range depends on the circumstance. If you backed away from a bad situation but the attacker grabbed a gun from his waistband 25 yards away you'd be justified. If the attacker had a small knife or fists, probably not.

Here's a good article entitled "How Close is Too Close?"

It's an old article but, IMHO, is still relevant.

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm

Double Naught Spy
September 12, 2008, 09:31 AM
Yeah, but if one practices the unlikely situation exclusively, chances are that one is going to be SOL when an actual self defense situation arises.

What moron would practice exclusively for an unlikely situation?

The 25 yard rule that so many seem to be adhering to is a perfect example of how the square range mentality will get you killed. It's based on the size of most pistol ranges, not reality. The question is not simply how far away the attacker is, but whether they have the ability to do you grave bodily harm or death, and whether they are utilizing said ability.

Right.

For any given future fight, there is only one known distance that might occur. We know that the fight will not occur at distances closer than physical contact. After that, it may be any distance and not just a distance, but any number of distances as the situation may be quite fluid.

kraigwy
September 12, 2008, 09:40 AM
Why do we practice at 25 yards? Because it makes us better at 7 yards. If you can hit at 25 you can hit at 7 yards. Hitting at 7 yards dosnt mean you can hit at 25.

I was the OIC of the AK NG SARTS (Small Arms Readiness Training Section). I moved the soldiers to the 600 yard KD ranges.

As you know most of the military qualification is from 25 to 300 meters. When you train soldiers on the KD range, up to 600 yards, the scores on the 300 meter range goes up.

The same works for pistols/revolvers, you practice at 25-50 yards your close combat 7 yard scores are gonna go up. You dont believe it, challenge a Bullseye shooter to a shoot on your 7-15 yard ranges.

buzz_knox
September 12, 2008, 09:48 AM
Why do we practice at 25 yards? Because it makes us better at 7 yards. If you can hit at 25 you can hit at 7 yards. Hitting at 7 yards dosnt mean you can hit at 25.

That was the point of the 75 yard excercise mentioned above. Several people were having issues with shots at 7-15 yards. So, we fired at 75 yards to show that the problem wasn't with the weapons, nor even the shooters' ability. It was simply a failure to apply the basics when they were under pressure.

Dwight55
September 12, 2008, 10:10 AM
When asked a hard question, . . . most politicians either change the subject or issue the standard: "It all depends", . . . and many times they are perfectly correct in that statement.

"It all depends" is perfectly applicable to the question at hand here, . . . as there are circumstances where being able to shoot out to 75 or even 100 feet can be the difference between staying alive and becoming a statistic.

The key is to train, . . . as much as is possible, . . . for the "probable" encounter, . . . the "possible" encounter, . . . and then even for the "just in case it happens this way" encounter. No, . . . it will not make you perfectly proficient in all possible scenarios, . . . but it will give you a better chance of surviving.

One poster suggested that at 25 yds we should rely more on evasion, cover, and concealment, . . . but that is only applicable if there is cover/concealment available, . . . and if we are able to evade. At 63+, . . . a bad knee, . . . bum hip, . . . heart trouble, . . . my evasion skills are severely limited.

I shore up my evasion shortfall by trying to be more vigilant, being proactive in staying out of places that have a higher propensity of danger, and by being willing to go into action probably a bit sooner than many others may feel justified in doing.

Some of my range shooting is at 30 feet, . . . because my house has a living room that is 36 feet long, . . . there are shooting alleys in that same house that can stretch 56 feet due to the open floor plan, . . . training only for a 6 to 10 foot encounter in my opinion is counterproductive to my being ready, . . . whereas my 30 to 50 feet shooting may some day be needed, . . . especially in a home invasion scenario.

Again, . . . echoing earlier words, . . . the other guy will set the rules for which we will engage, . . . if we are ready, . . . we may survive, . . . if we are not ready, . . . we will not survive.

May God bless,
Dwight

Creature
September 12, 2008, 10:23 AM
Like DDS pointed out, distance doesn't really matter...if a direct threat to your well-being is six inches away...or sixty yards away, you going to react. How you react will be based on how you perceive your surroundings and how you see yourself using your surroundings to best employ the level of skill that you think you are capable of.

I do know from scenario and simulator training, during their first scenario, many folks are surprised (in a bad way) to find that their ability to react to a fast developing situation is not quite as they expected it to be. We had a lot of wasted movement and wasted shots...myself included. Sight picture, economy of movement and ammunition management went out the window...and many were left standing there with empty mags and simunition hits all over their vests, visors and helmets. It doesn't take long to get into that fight mode in a training environment after that first wake-up call. I actually considered myself ahead of the curve simply because I still had some ammunition left to fight with before the initial scenario was halted.

And so it is really something when you're out in the real world, in your neck of the woods, and the balloon goes up....and suddenly you find yourself in that proverbial "wrong place at the wrong time" situation. Hopefully most of us here at TFL have already mentally run enough obstacle courses in our heads to have a pretty good idea of what needs to get done....and can recognize which of those object/s in our "bubble" that rightly deserve our undivided attention and which ones don't...and even better, can divide our attention enough to not get too stuck in the "tunnel". Hopefully most of us have enough SA and paranoia that they expand or contract that bubble to realistically match their ability to effectively use the tool they carry.

David Armstrong
September 12, 2008, 02:32 PM
The same works for pistols/revolvers, you practice at 25-50 yards your close combat 7 yard scores are gonna go up. You dont believe it, challenge a Bullseye shooter to a shoot on your 7-15 yard ranges.

The basic problem, however, is that the scores frequently do not reflect success outside of a very narrow field. Bullseye shooting and the scores from that do not reflect tactical skills, but instead marksmanship skills. I advocate shooting at distance as a means of honing the marksmanship abilities, but one needs an additional skill set for close shootings. My $.02.

BillCA
September 12, 2008, 09:18 PM
We all train within certain limitations. It may be cost of ammo (using range fodder vs. our +P carry loads), range limitations such as a square range, limited firing speed, no use of holsters, etc.) and we face limitations on our ability to become "masters of the art" because most of us have day jobs, relationships, kids to raise and so on.

But good practice where your marksmanship, tactics and procedures are sound gives you a leg up on surviving a gunfight.

Practicing at 25 yards or 50 yards probably isn't necessary for the bulk of your defensive work, but it should be at least part of a regular "work out" at the range.

The notion that 25 yards is "too far away" for us to practice shots at that distance is patently false. If your life or someone else's life is in danger, the only question will be how will you save a life?

If someone is shooting at others and you're 30 yards away from the shooter with no cover to approach, how will you engage with any confidence? Chances are, you won't.

Certainly someone making threats or brandishing blunt force weapons 25 yards away isn't an immediate threat - to you. But what if his threat is to your spouse trying to get into the car? Or your child?

Most of us train on static targets while real-life targets move, stop, turn and move again. When was the last time your handgun practice included targets that move?

We all have our myopic tendencies. Some study says 7 yards, another says 15 yards. Some say to practice near-contact distance skills while other say practice move & shoot. In general we practice for what we expect and what we expect is often driven by studies and reports describing the "average" of numerous events.

The two problems with this approach are that many of those statistics include police shootings which are different in nature than civilian shootings. Second, your actual gunfight will be nothing like you expected or trained for.

Whatever distance you've trained at will not be the distance of your gunfight. For that reason alone, we should be flexible and practice at many various distances, include 25 and 50 yards. Otherwise, we're like a military planning to fight the last war again instead of adapting to new conditions.

Chui
September 13, 2008, 09:37 AM
Compare that to a Les Baer which costs 4X as much and has a reputation for being unreliable. Which is more appropriate for self defense and home defense?
News to the world, I guess.

Your skills for sight alignment, breathing and trigger control will be enhanced if you choose to shoot at 25 yards. Shooting is shooting and enhancing skills is the name of the game. With the logic being touted here taken to extremes, the avg guy here will NEVER use his firearm so why spend the money and time?

This is a martial art and as such one should be proud to master himself and his weapon. If it's approached as a hobby do what you feel; many hobbyists are phenomenal at what they can do. It just won't matter much from a self-defense perspective.

rickdavis81
September 13, 2008, 10:31 AM
One of the rooms I'm finishing in the basement of my new house will be 25 yards long. Big rec room with pool table, bar and entertainment system. So 25 yards can happen. When I shoot my bow I usually practice at least 40 yards if not 50 or 60 that way the close shots will be easy. Plus I know I can shoot that far if need be. Same with pistols, if all my shots we're from 7 yards I'd be screwed if I had to shoot the 25 yard shot.

Glenn E. Meyer
September 13, 2008, 10:43 AM
So, we can pretty much rule out accuracy at 25 yards as irrelevant to
self defense and home defense.

So can we conclude the original conjecture was somewhat overstated and probably just a touch trolling? :)

Creature
September 13, 2008, 10:48 AM
So can we conclude the original conjecture was somewhat overstated and probably just a touch trolling?

Based on prior posts from the OP, the answer would be yes. Unless the OP can actually make an argument that backs his claim ruling out training beyond 25 yards, that is...

BillCA
September 14, 2008, 03:16 AM
So can we conclude the original conjecture was somewhat overstated and probably just a touch trolling?
Certainly it falls into the argumentative column. ;) Overstated, definitely.

At the risk of hijacking the intent of the thread, the OP's comment about spending 4x as much on a super-accurate 25 yard gun versus an average-accuracy 25 yard gun has a little merit.

If your expensive accurate gun shoots 3/4" groups at 25 yards versus a typical factory model shooting 2" at 25 yards, all other things being equal, I'd suggest buying the less expensive gun and using the difference towards range fees and practice too.

For instance, with a target like this...
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff111/BillCA/Hobby/swa/SW39_01172006.jpg

Why should I spend over $1200 for super-accurate 9mm when my $400 9mm is capable of this kind of grouping with plain WWB ammo?
Note: it's even better with premium ammo :cool:

bcarver
September 14, 2008, 11:27 AM
Seen it.
Location: Hotel parking lot.
Robber demanded and recieved wallet.
Robber ran while victim drew weapon.
Robber stopped.
Robber turned to engage.
Robber died.

Any distance you can be "shot at" you can be shot.
If you can be shot you have a reason for self defense.

Hondo11
September 15, 2008, 06:33 AM
I hope the next Salt Lake City or Omaha, NE mall shooter reads this thread. That way they'll know they aren't allowed to use a long gun or engage anyone at a distance of more than 7 meters...since, you know, that's the average police shooting distance.

"Oh, but at that distance, you should be trying to escape." Yeah, I guess you could do that. Or you could sack up and kill the guy before he guns down the soccer mom with 3 kids who really would prefer that she stay alive.

Glenn E. Meyer
September 15, 2008, 10:04 AM
What if he is a mountain gorilla? Like I said, the original conjecture is roasted, sliced and has a fork in it. :D

jacob
September 15, 2008, 03:17 PM
The time you might need longer distance accuracy is in a public gathering. If I am in church and somebody comes for a shooting spree, I am going to shoot from some distance, and I will need to be accurate. Likewise at a fair or a theater or a mall or some other such place where a BG wants to take 30 people out with him. That is why in addition to quick draw and close practice I also take the 25 yard practice sometimes.

buzz_knox
September 15, 2008, 03:52 PM
Discussions of mall shootings made me think of my local mall. It's the typical two-story affair with multiple openings where one can look down onto the lower level. It also has the food court located on the second level, surrounding one side of the central atrium.

Shooters on the second level have clear fields of fire for far greater than 25 yards in many areas. In some, you are looking at a danger zone that extends for 50 yards, with minimal cover. The term "fish in a barrel" comes to mind. I'd really like to be able to return fire in that situation.

It's really not that hard to find instances in our every day life when a 25 yard (or greater) shot is necessary, appropriate, and legally defensible.

Glenn E. Meyer
September 15, 2008, 04:21 PM
I think I have ordered 'fish in a barrel' at the food court. And with that a good night.

Jermtheory
September 19, 2008, 06:31 PM
one thing i think everyone is overlooking...

what if the threat is a very tiny person?

if they happen to be half the size of your average individual..then wouldnt 10+ yards become more like 20+?

Scattergun Bob
September 19, 2008, 09:37 PM
Isn't that what mouse guns are for?:D

Good Luck & Be Safe

Sarge
September 19, 2008, 10:00 PM
one thing i think everyone is overlooking...

what if the threat is a very tiny person?

if they happen to be half the size of your average individual..then wouldnt 10+ yards become more like 20+?

"Shoot low, boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies."

TripIII
September 23, 2008, 09:21 PM
I carry the biggest most accurate gun I can fit IWB...that I like to shoot at the range, that is reliable, and that I feel comfortable affording. Don't see a need to carry a $3k pistol...but that would be cool too. But I'd also rather wear a Rolex than a Tag. It's called marketing. Thank God for a free market. Thank God we live in a country that we have such dilemas.

I vote for freedom.

mkg
September 24, 2008, 10:23 AM
This took place within blocks of my home . My mother had "JUST" left the Publix where this happened . While not the usual PD it does happen and it only takes once.

http://www.local6.com/news/12899083/detail.html?subid=22100428&qs=1;bp=t

Mike

Keltyke
September 24, 2008, 02:26 PM
The average human can run 10 m/h. If you can draw, aim and fire in 2 seconds, the BG must be at least 28 feet away (2 car lengths) for you to execute the maneuver.

So, long range practice is a good thing.

Sarge
September 24, 2008, 06:07 PM
I'm a vocal advocate of wringing all the precision you can get, without sacrificing reliability, from your defensive/duty piece; but that 'charging suspect' gets into speed-rock distance pretty fast. It is a good example of why you need both skillsets, and the ability to decide which is applicable upon first recognition of the threat.

.300H&H
September 27, 2008, 01:13 AM
Just because you're good at tennis doesn't mean you'll win the ping pong match. Just because you're a ping pong champion doesn't mean you're ready for the big tennis game. Different rules and Different Tactics. Some folks do silly things like train with mouseguns for 25yds. and 1911's for 3ft.away.
You don't bring a Ping Pong Paddle to a Tennis Court, and you don't bring a
Tennis Racquet to a Ping Pong Table.:D

Keltyke
September 28, 2008, 02:22 PM
Some folks do silly things like train with mouseguns for 25yds. and 1911's for 3ft.away.

So you should carry two guns? One for long distance and one for close up? At what distance do you decide to switch from one to the other? So, if an attacker jumps you from 4 feet away, and all you got is a full size 1911, you can't shoot him? If someone runs at you from 50 feet away and all got got is a Keltec P-32, you have to wait until he's on top of you? I think not.

You simply train to hit what you aim at with whatever you've decided to carry from whatever distance you think you may need to fire.

GeraldG
October 11, 2008, 01:20 PM
In most situations, I have to quote my Dad. He pounded this into my head every chance he got. The quote is "He who thinks fastest laughs last". It was probably not an original quote, but at the time and through the years, it has served me well. A gun is a tool. The weapon is the person who uses the tool. As the Gunny told me, "There are no dangerous weapons, there are only dangerous men". Keep practicing with whatever you have. I do.