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Glenn E. Meyer
August 29, 2008, 02:43 PM
You are asleep in bed. The bedroom door is lsupposed to be locked and was when you fell asleep. You have firearm next to you.

1. You hear the rattle (you waken by this sound only) and if you sleep with another person, they are not there.

The door rattles:

a. Challenge
b. Shoot through the door
c. Wait till the door is breached before action - verbal or shooting

2. Same thing but other person is there, the door rattles:

a. Challenge
b. Shoot through the door.
c. Wait till the door is breached before action - verbal or shooting

3. You sleep alone in the bedroom and hear the rattle (do other people sleep in the house, you call it in this one). You don't know if they are home or not.

a. Challenge
b. Shoot through the door.
c. Wait till the door is breached before action - verbal or shooting

hogdogs
August 29, 2008, 03:04 PM
I have my wife in my room and 2 teens across the house so no shooting thru doors. I do not have a tough dog but do have momma's yapper size dog and my pitbull cross and both will bark at a strange noise or person. Once awakened I would reach for my pump gun and .22pistol. to stash under my pillow. I would address the person and if it is not one of my 3 loved ones I would be forced to head for the door. If I get jumped at the door I am gonna try my best to neutralize the threat. If they are not immediately right there I first must make my way to my kids rooms to check on them and verify their well being. Than I am gonna have to figure out that noise I heard with the help of rosie the red nose bulldog. I may not be following proper protocol but that is all I can think to do.
Brent

fisherman66
August 29, 2008, 03:15 PM
A
A
A

chris in va
August 29, 2008, 03:15 PM
Never shoot through a door. You simply don't know what's on the other side. Too many times I've read about this happening only to discover it was someone you never intended to shoot. Granted it was one of the house entry doors, but still.

I'd have to say a verbal warning is called for on most scenerios.

NAKing
August 29, 2008, 03:15 PM
I would never, ever shoot through a door. This violates one of the four sacred rules of firearm usage, "always be sure of your target."

In all three instances I would challenge from an area of the room that would give me tactical advantage. Once the door is breached and I can identify the person as a threat I would fire until the person is no longer a threat. Once I deemed the house safe I would pick up the telephone and call 911, then administer first aid until police arrived. I am trained in first aid.

I hope this never happens to anybody.

vox rationis
August 29, 2008, 03:39 PM
That's:
D. Activate the bear trap underneath my Welcome mat.

Seriously,
the correct answer is to take a strong position of defensive cover in a position away from the door and to announce in a LOUD voice "Who are you and what do you want!", or if it is your bedroom door "I'm armed and the Police are on the way" or something similar. Even if I lived alone and it was my bedroom door, I'd still be very much disinclined to shoot through the door without knowing who I am shooting at.

The detail that the person normally sleeping next to you isn't there, in the above scenario, makes shooting through the door an extremely stupid if not criminal idea.

It is probably the main squeeze, sneaking back after a sweet rendezvous with Zee Lover :D.

If it is your front door and you think that spying through the view hole is a good idea, well, all I can say is that people on the outside can often see that someone is on the other side peeking through, not to mention that I think there are lenses that allow someone to view into your house through the spy hole. Standing with only a door as cover between you and a potential murderer is a bad idea, cause after all, they might choose to ventilate you through the door as soon as they become aware that you are on the other side of the door.

Scattergun Bob
August 29, 2008, 03:54 PM
Before I blow more hot air your way :) can I have more data, When you say there or not there are you meaning beside you in bed or absent from the home? I know, trivial but it makes a difference to me.

Thanks, Bob

jfrey123
August 29, 2008, 05:36 PM
I lock my door for this exact type of purpose. I live with roommates who know I lock my door for that vary purpose.

(A) is possible. I believe in my room I have the element of suprise (BG things I'm asleep). If my roommates are there, I'll challenge to make sure it isn't them, and if it is a BG he's now aware I'm awake and will hopefully run and leave them alone too.

(B) Never. At least not with a quiet jiggle on my door. If I've challenged, and they're attempting to breach harder or threatening me verbally, then we'll see how the situation goes.

(C) is more likely. If I'm sure I'm alone or sure it's not a roommate, I'm glad I'm awake now and the adrenaline is probably surging. I'd rather not give away that I'm awake and risk the BG trying to shoot me through the door or something. I'd take a defensive position and hope the door doesn't breach, while attempting 911 by cell phone.

Keltyke
August 29, 2008, 06:13 PM
1. You hear the rattle (you waken by this sound only) and if you sleep with another person, they are not there.
The door rattles:

After arming yourself, challenge from cover - "Who is it?" Wrong answer - wait until you are sure of your target then take him out.

2. Same thing but other person is there, the door rattles:

Take cover, arm yourself, wait until you are sure of your target, then take him out. In my household, he'd get shot twice, once by me and once by my spouse.

3. You sleep alone in the bedroom and hear the rattle (do other people sleep in the house, you call it in this one). You don't know if they are home or not.
No one else supposed to be there: See #2.
Others in the house: See #1

KChen986
August 29, 2008, 07:09 PM
Shoot through door with an AT-4 CS. :D

Honestly, in the really off chance that someone is trying to break in to my room, I'd take cover behind my desk and challenge, challenge and challenge.

Stevie-Ray
August 29, 2008, 08:16 PM
My bedroom door is never closed.

Dwight55
August 29, 2008, 08:59 PM
Like Stevie, . . . my bedroom door is never closed unless my wife or a guest is up watching TV or playing with the game system.

If it were locked, . . . I would be off the bed, . . . on the floor, . . . in a corner, . . . behind whatever cover or concealment was available, . . . in a defensive position, . . . with my .45ACP, . . . awaiting someone to come through the door.

No, . . . shooting through the door is patently wrong, . . . it deserves no statement.

Challenge??? Not for me, . . . as it gives away the fact that I am in the bedroom, . . . it tells whoever is out there that it is a male, . . . and without another voice, apparently alone (1 victim).

Whoever comes in will find a very, very dark room, . . . will need light, . . . and will ID themselves as friend or foe in short order, . . . thus signalling the answer.

My cell phone will be laying on the floor, . . . 911 having been called, . . . they will be able to hear every thing that goes on, off, up, down, in, out, or whatever.

Anyway, . . . that would be plan 1, . . . subject to modification as the situation deemed necessary.

May God bless,
Dwight

guntotin_fool
August 29, 2008, 09:07 PM
Never shoot thru a door unless they are shooting thru it first.


I have wired my house so I can flip 4 switches and light up (well enough to see and ID) the whole house, inside and out. I would hit these. light the place up, everywhere but where I am, and then see what's the noise.


I have to say that with two dogs in the house, the likelihood that anyone is in the house without us knowing is very low, they have been conditioned not to eat anything not from us, so they are at very low risk of being poisoned out, but it could happen, but it's very low. Dogs have been guarding human's caves and dwellings for a very long time, and there is a reason for that.....

dabigguns357
August 29, 2008, 09:25 PM
This is why i have a camera mounted just above my bedroom door facing down and out into the dining room and it's wired to my tv so i'll always know whats on the other side of the door

New Wireless Color CCTV Security Spy Mini Camera US on ebay for 35.99 buy it now.

NukeCop
August 30, 2008, 11:52 AM
Well, this is an EASY ONE :D

Basic rule of firearms, and self defence. Know your target, and whats behind it. In other words, Identify friend or Foe, assess the situation, and deal with it accordingly.

Personally, I'd NEVER fire through some type of medium that I couldn't see through, unless someone was already firing at me. Even then, it depends on my location. In a house, alone, and the door to my bedroom rattles, call the police, and warn whoever is on the other side to leave, and that police are en route.(stand off to the side for the warning)...

New_Pollution1086
August 30, 2008, 12:01 PM
Why would you ever shoot through a door without knowing for sure whats on the otherside.

in the first it would be a big A, Honey that you, make me a sandwhich if your up.:D.

either of the other options would be a little more threatening and maybe with a gun at the ready but still a verbal response.

T

tplumeri
August 30, 2008, 12:02 PM
A rattle at the bedroom door.

well, it wasnt at the bedroom door, but it didnt sound like one of the dogs at the back door....

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35490&stc=1&d=1220115648


5 mo old buttercup wandered in from the pasture and ate all the dog food! couldnt get down the steps!

Sparky33
August 30, 2008, 12:07 PM
Tplumeri

Looks like you got fresh steaks for a few months delivered. Unless that is a milk cow. I can't tell the difference, sorry I'm a city boy :D

tplumeri
August 30, 2008, 12:17 PM
Unless that is a milk cow

Nope, thats a "baby" long horn!
she'll have a 4 ft "rack" when she's 2 years old!

sorry I'm a city boy

dont apologize, i was born and raised in NY!
tom

Keltyke
August 30, 2008, 12:20 PM
I've heard cows can't (or won't, or are afraid) walk downstairs because their weight causes the front "knees" to bend and there's a real possibility of them tipping over forwards. They can walk down hills because the slope is gradual.

Sparky33
August 30, 2008, 12:30 PM
Ah thanks for the clarification. I should really know a long horn when I see one. I suppose I'm used to only seeing them full-grown.

ringworm
August 30, 2008, 12:41 PM
do i have time to put on my ninja suit and grab my SOPMOD M4 with green laser?
i will activate the automatic floor sensors turning on the strobe light and smoke machine then release the ferrets.http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff5/backup674/Smiley/LOL.gif
shoot thru the the door...:rolleyes:
what did the door ever do to you?

i dont know...
whats the penetrative potential of an airsoft BB?
http://www.paratrooper.net/commo/Uploads/Images/146462ee-ffe7-485d-8160-bf76.jpg

tplumeri
August 30, 2008, 12:44 PM
shoot thru the the door...

you just killed an innocent cow:(

NickySantoro
August 30, 2008, 12:51 PM
A rattle at the bedroom door.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are asleep in bed. The bedroom door is lsupposed to be locked and was when you fell asleep. You have firearm next to you.

How did the intruder get past your alarm system on your perimeter doors? You have one, of course. After you yelled "I have a gun and I've called 911" what was the response from the other side of the door?

Capt Charlie
August 30, 2008, 02:24 PM
you just killed an innocent cow

Are you sure that was just an innocent cow? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IJBbtkBMMs) ;)

Just a gentle nudge to mooove us back on topic. We don't want this to get udderly rediculous :D.

vox rationis
August 30, 2008, 03:02 PM
Are you sure that was just an innocent cow?

Just a gentle nudge to mooove us back on topic. We don't want this to get udderly rediculous .

hilarious :D ...one more thing to worry about in this world: uppity socialist revolutionary cows with guns :eek:

Vanya
August 30, 2008, 03:21 PM
one more thing to worry about in this world: uppity socialist revolutionary cows with guns

Don't laugh.

http://www.cowswithguns.com

Be afraid. Be very afraid, and don't say I didn't warn you.

BillCA
August 30, 2008, 09:49 PM
Looks like others beat me to the CowsWithGuns site. :p

Why would you ever shoot through a door without knowing for sure whats on the otherside.

Most bedroom doors are hollow-core doors. If you've replaced yours with a solid door, give yourself 5 points for preparedness. For the rest of us, that door is about as much of a barrier as cardboard.

I live alone and seldom have stay over guests. If someone got in on a night where the bedroom door was closed & locked (for some reason) and I awoke to a rattling of the doorknob....

- It's likely I DO have a stay-over guest and if so, I'll ask what do they want. Incoherent or no reply will cause me to arm and prepare for some "unknown circumstances".

- If it's a case of no stay-over guests I'm probably NOT going to make inquires to give away the fact that I'm alerted to their presence.

- If there is a hard slamming noise or the sound of splintering wood, I'll launch a pair of JHP about 4 inches inside the doorknob and about 12-inches above it in anticipation of the barrier failing. [Presumes no guests.]

- If the door is kicked in, fire to slidelock, grab the .357 back-up and hold position while dialing 911.

At this point is when people usually make the claim about "identifying your target". Fine. As intruders with evil-intent don't carry IFF transponders and I don't have the electronics anyhow.

In rapid sequence:
1. When a guest is present in the house, VFR (visual fighting rules) apply.
... 1.1. A guest is most likely to knock on the bedroom door.
... 1.2. A guest is most likely to announce their needs when questioned.
2. When no guests are present TNR (Threat neutralization rules) apply
... 2.1. A quiet rattling of the doorknob indicates a stealth entry attempt.
... 2.2. An attempt to quietly shove the door open indicates a stealth entry attempt.
... 2.3. Stealth entry attempts followed by attempts to break open the door indicate a serious threat.
... 2.4. Authorities (under some emergency) will loudly knock and announce who they are and the nature of the emergency. So too would neighbors likely be yelling "fire" or some similar warning.
... 2.5. If the door is attacked and giving way, the person on the other side is not my friend.
... 2.6. If the threat subsides, then dial 911 for cavalry support and maintain security on the closed door. Ideally with the 12-gauge.

And before someone tries to "what if..." an improbable circumstance (...a deaf-mute 'dwarf' from a different social culture) I'll point out that someone intruding has already committed at least one felony by the time they've reached my bedroom door.

Don P
August 31, 2008, 08:43 AM
Bedroom door is of the louvered type. No knob. All entry doors dead bolt locked and windows closed and locked. Alarm is set. Noise in house will result in very possible gun fire:eek: as long as the wife is next to me in bed.:D
At this point as far as I am concerned NO ONE should be in the house EXCEPT THE WIFE AND I.:mad: No extra keys out there so no one should be in the home with us, PERIOD!!!

tplumeri
August 31, 2008, 10:53 AM
"what if..." an improbable circumstance (...a deaf-mute 'dwarf' from a different social culture

that actually happened a couple towns over. was in the local paper.
the dwarf used a cow to gain entry.
apparently, the cow was fluent in sign language.

Creature
August 31, 2008, 12:22 PM
I read the same thing...but the cow was udder the influence.

obxned
August 31, 2008, 12:34 PM
I let the dogs decide if it is friend or foe. Actually, if they can get to the bedroom door without the dogs going off, they are family.

vox rationis
August 31, 2008, 12:59 PM
I let the dogs decide if it is friend or foe

In that case a rattle at the bedroom door would be the crook signaling you to activate EMS on his behalf :D

tranks
August 31, 2008, 01:49 PM
answer ,
E) swiss cheese door, walls around door, floor in front of door and ceiling above door. shoot until out of ammo. start throwing guns, knifes, alarm clock, pillows...


j/k, the only way i would ever shoot sight unseen through door is if someone else has already started shooting at me through said door and even then, i'll probably opt for a window exit.

i've heard eerie/hair raising rattlings at door before and it just turned out to be the wind trying to pass threw the house w/ a closed door in the way. (and believe me, it didn't sound like wind could do that)

tplumeri
August 31, 2008, 02:43 PM
but the cow was udder the influence

:D

macmonkey
August 31, 2008, 09:51 PM
Really since we all live in different places governed by a completely different set of rules.

In order to convince a jury that you had no other choice of taking a life is that the perp had opportunity, ability and your life was in jeopardy. Without all 3 it's homicide unless you live in a shoot first state that recognizes the castle doctrine.

So to cover my own ass I'm covering and challenging. Until that door breaches whereas the perp has opportunity and most likely ability I'm not doing anything but calling 911. I've got the opportunity in this situation - he doesn't know what the inside of my room looks like, he doesn't know how many are in the room and unfortunately for him there are 2 of us with firearms that certainly know how to use them and have pre-determined a plan for this type of situation.

Best case scenario the person runs away. Worst case scenario he kicks open my door and gets a slug in the chest. Either way I've won.

Keltyke
September 1, 2008, 06:09 PM
In order to convince a jury that you had no other choice of taking a life is that the perp had opportunity, ability and your life was in jeopardy.

Means, opportunity, intent in SC. The castle doctrine is in effect here, but you still need those three.

Night Watch
September 1, 2008, 06:51 PM
:) Quite honestly? Things that go bump in the night are of no particular concern to me; I'd just roll over and go back to sleep. If it's something really important the Pit Bulldog at the foot of the bed will let us know.

Trust me! There are better things for someone to do with the remainder of his life than trying to wander around our home in the dark. As far as I'm concerned, coming here uninvited late at night would be, well, better than an old fashioned coon hunt: plenty of guns, lights, growls 'n noise, and someone running for a tree. We'd, all, have us a regular country hoedown; and, the critters would eat good in the morning!

Next hypothetical situation, please, .... ;)

Don P
September 1, 2008, 06:59 PM
Quote:
In order to convince a jury that you had no other choice of taking a life is that the perp had opportunity, ability and your life was in jeopardy.

Means, opportunity, intent in SC. The castle doctrine is in effect here, but you still need those three.

As the saying goes, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

It is quite evident to me that if some one has the balls to break in:eek: and is now at you bedroom door:eek: what part of MEANS, OPPORTUNITY,& INTENT are not there. Do you realy think he's looking for a lite for his smokie or crack pipe? Or maybe a drink of water.
As I stated earlier, if you go to bed knowing the doors and windows were locked. NO ONE, BUT NO ONE should ever be in the house other than family members. Just my opinion from a gun friendly state.:D
And as always remember your tin-foil hats.

pax
September 1, 2008, 10:14 PM
As the saying goes, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

"First, we get you out of the hands of the pallbearers. That's a good step, but it's not all there is to it. An 8 by 12 cell isn't much of a life." -- Massad Ayoob.

pax

mrghostwalker
September 3, 2008, 02:03 PM
An important point to remember is that if you shoot through the door at an unknown target of unknown danger then you are liable. Forget the "judged by 12/carried by 6" stuff. If you shoot at someone who is not threatening you (or another person) then you will go to jail. And you may kill someone who is completely innocent. There are a hundred reasons why someone may be rattling your door knob. Being scared isn't a reason to take a life.
-Don’t get me wrong- if someone walks in your door threatening your life then you would be justified to shoot them. But you had better be sure of your target. It might be the Cop who found your door open (after scaring off a burglar) and is checking the house for more burglars! It happens more than you think.
The short answer? Only a fool shoots at something he can't see!

Keltyke
September 3, 2008, 02:25 PM
An important point to remember is that if you shoot through the door at an unknown target of unknown danger then you are liable.

One of the primary rules of guns - be sure of your target.

The only time you are permitted to shoot is if the BG has opportunity, ability, and intent. You can prove none of these through a door.

BillCA
September 4, 2008, 01:34 AM
For 98% of conditions I agree .. you shouldn't fire thru a closed door.

But, living alone and having someone attempt to open a clocked & locked bedroom door in oh-dark-thirty is reason for alarm. Most bedroom doors offer about as much protection as cardboard because they're hollow-core doors.

Mine isn't. If wood starts splintering, either the solid door itself or the moulding/door frame, someone is capable of ripping moulding attached by 3-1/2" screws. At this point, I already have a felonious intruder breaking down my last reinforced barrier.

It's unlikely to happen in reality though. My attack cat would make mincemeat out of 'em. :D

Nnobby45
September 4, 2008, 02:19 AM
TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does your post make you?

--Capt Charlie

I think Charlie asks the right question here.

When some one starts a thread asking if we'd shoot thru a door at an unknown target that hasn't even been ID'd as a threat, then the poster fails in the ambassador department, since killing your neighbor who knocks on your door for help during an emergency isn't cool, anymore than filling a cop full of holes who came to let you know your car (that you didn't know was stolen) was just recovered a half hour ago.

It's good to see that so many of the replies made a joke out of the thread, which is appropriate IMO.:cool:

Glenn E. Meyer
September 4, 2008, 09:45 AM
Pardon me - and thanks for pontificating.

The purpose of the thread was to bring some reality to posts in a previous threade where folks said they would just open fire at the slightest provocation. Challenging or ID'ing the possible threat was not part of their plan.

I intended to point out that life is more complex and show a realistic scenario that could happen (has happened to me once, BTW) and see if the blood lust crowd could see the point.

Also, FYI, in various FOF training scenarios, folks practice what to do with an intruder at the door.

So, your initial conjectures about the thread are off base and you missed the point in your self righteous pontification.

David Armstrong
September 4, 2008, 09:48 AM
All you door shooters there might want to read up on the Peairs case out of Baton Rouge, LA. Remember, with Peairs he was found not guilty of any criminal act but it still cost him close to a million dollars by the time it is all over with.

Nnobby45
September 4, 2008, 04:32 PM
So, your initial conjectures about the thread are off base and you missed the point in your self righteous pontification.


I intended to point out that life is more complex and show a realistic scenario that could happen (has happened to me once, BTW) and see if the blood lust crowd could see the point.


Well, it seems I'm guilty of taking your post at face value and not realizing your point was directly related to another thread I wasn't aware of.

Ah jeez, Glen. Why not let the rest of us in on the intent of the thread to begin with and lessen the chance of a "self righteous pontification" to which you ascribed my post.:rolleyes:

Besides, your trick didn't work, since not one poster answered yes to shooting through the door and identifying themselves as part of "the blood lust crowd".:p

See, this is what happens when old geezers like Glen and me have too much time on our hands. Maybe I should consider going back to drinking.:D

pax
September 4, 2008, 06:54 PM
What do you guys think? Is it time to close this one?

Seems that pretty much all that can be said has been said...

pax

J.Smith
September 4, 2008, 07:19 PM
Obvious problem for any of you with teenage kids. I know when I was living at home, it wasn't rare for me to sneak one of my girlfriends in the house in the middle of the night. Also wasn't rare for me to sneak over to their houses. Make sure of your target and their intent before firing, if they are foe then let the JHP go.

Sparky33
September 4, 2008, 07:29 PM
Yeah, I think the OP's question has been addressed pretty throughly.

Glenn E. Meyer
September 5, 2008, 09:48 AM
I'll drink to that. Last call is over, turn out the lights. :D

pax
September 5, 2008, 09:50 AM
Thank you for the thoughtful posts, all.

pax