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View Full Version : What Do You Expect The Need For Your Fighting Rifle To Be?


threegun
August 28, 2008, 02:21 PM
To you guys and gals who are prepared for just about anything, what situation/s do you feel you may have to face with your fighting rifle?

In what order do you put the following attributes for your fighting rifle (most important first)? amount of ammo that can be carried for it, speed of followup shots, ability to penetrate cover, and stopping power.

I'm going to assume that the platform is reliable, accurate, and durable.

For me its riots, looters, and gang trouble.

My list was speed of followups, ammo that can be carried, stopping power, penetration of cover. I'm having a change of heart though. I really am having difficulty thinking this through. I'm torn as to how big a factor penetration might be given the urban environment.

Need some thoughts....

Sixer
August 28, 2008, 02:42 PM
If we're talking riots, looters, and gang members I would have to go with my AR - 15 (M4 type). Over penetration could probably be an issue but...

- It looks MEAN, so theres a little more psych. effect on an angry mob or gang
- High capacity mags are a plus for obvious reasons
- Ammo is relativly cheap and 5.56 NATO should be available
- Easy to maintain and repair if needed... rugged
- good accuracy within a few hundred yds
- M4 type is also good for CQB.
- Flashlight and other attatchments would be handy.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents! Second in line would be my 10/22 :)

David Armstrong
August 28, 2008, 05:18 PM
The rifle is just a tool. I am capable of handling any situation with a variety of rifles. So for me the attributes don't change based on the need.

Threefeathers
August 28, 2008, 07:35 PM
I live on the border. Carjacking by illegals. This is usually very violent and if you drive the border at night you'll witness 2-3 jacks a year. Then Home break in, illegals again and usually at night. Finally gnag bangers, but Salvos or Bloods who are fighting for kids in my community.

New_Pollution1086
August 28, 2008, 07:55 PM
My go to would either be my m1 carbine or my kel-tec. ammo is lite for both more easily attained for the kt though. both good cqb weapons. however there aren't to many foreseeable situations in the future.

I live in an apt complex in a college part of town so maybe a riot (the drunken kind) but the sight of me with any weapon would probably be deterrent enough. So I think my main go to would be the good ole Mossberg 500.

T

HoraceHogsnort
August 28, 2008, 09:07 PM
If I ever need a long gun for anything it'll most likely be an intruder and the Rem. 870 will be handling the chores. Same for a pack of gang bangers.

Derius_T
August 28, 2008, 10:21 PM
I like the AR-15 M4 variants, as well as an AK variant if given the choice. The AR for availability of parts/accessories, the AK for toughness and dependability.

I would love to have a combat grade 870 platform for up close work tho, with the appropriate modifications, and save the rifle for the longer range suppression shots.

And a nice bladed or other non-ammo backup is always a plus for when/if supplies run out.

evan1293
August 28, 2008, 10:51 PM
My rifle is to fight my way back to my handgun. :D

No not really, but for me my "fighting" rifle (m4) is more for fun. Yes I have a red dot optic and BUIS, and yes I've taken 'tactical' rifle classes with it. But I really don't think as a civillian, I'll ever need to use it as a weapon to defend myself with, at least not while our society remains intact. Besides, the only time I even have my rilfe with me is when Im at home. If I needed a weapon to use for home defense it wouldn't be my rifle. I'd probably go with either my glock 22 or 12 gauge.

jrothWA
August 28, 2008, 11:02 PM
no varmint calibers, especially when varmints are shooting back.

New_Pollution1086
August 29, 2008, 12:12 AM
no varmint calibers, especially when varmints are shooting back.

hasnt the .223 proven itself in the last 40+ years as an efficient man killer?

and i wouldnt wanto to get shot buy a .243 or .22-250.

T

tplumeri
August 29, 2008, 12:34 AM
i like the idea of my 9mm colt AR for sheer volume, but the enfield 303 would be my choice if i wanted to "reach out and touch somebody"!:)
most of my "targets" w/b out at the perimeter, so i guess the enfield gets the nod. hey it was good enough for ww2 right?

HiBC
August 29, 2008, 01:57 AM
Figure whatever scenario you plan for you will get something else.
What is the best golf club? 5 iron?
I believe we have the best bunch of professional warriors in the world.They are faced with a variety of scenarios every day.I would guess the M-4 with an ACOG or red dot is pretty close to as good as it gets.

Of course,sometimes a 7.62 would be an advantage,or maybe an HK-91.
To cover most bases,most of the time,the M-4

MTMilitiaman
August 29, 2008, 03:43 AM
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l308/MTMilitiaman/Guns/M1AandAKlillypad2.jpg

I am not really concerned with the possibility of ever having to use my "fighting rifles." I live in a rural area in a part of the country where a severe natural disaster leading to a break down in civil order is extremely unlikely.

Realizing this...

I like stopping power and ability to turn cover into concealment. Of all the scenarios that might cause me to have to use my rifle, none of them require me to by roaming around with only the ammo on my back engaging in massive firefights. Carrying six to eight 30 round mags of 7.62x39 or 20 round mags of 7.62x51 is plenty. If the crap hits the fan that bad, I am finding the quickest way to family property and digging in. I can and do stockpile ammo there. Similarly, the rate of fire I can achieve with either of these is more than adequate for anything I'd need. Suppressive fire an movement is irrelevant. Even if I could do so without risking innocent third parties, this wouldn't be possible. I don't have the manpower to utilize the tactics. Any fire I put out will be aimed. Fire rate and the amount of ammo I can carry is almost completely irrelevant, esp comparing semi-autos with similar magazine capacities. However, the possibility of having to shoot through vehicle bodies, body armor, bricks, and, more likely for this area, large trees is not nearly as far fetched.

And no, after 40+ years, there is still more than adequate evidence to call the fight stopping power of the 5.56 in to question. We don't argue it on this very forum twice a week because nothing exists to the contrary.

Tuckahoe
August 29, 2008, 07:53 AM
My choice of a personal rifle is an M4 style AR15. While I have many other rifles this is the first one I grab 99% of the time. Lite weight, compact, accurate and very reliable. I can take this gun apart and fix anything that could ever go wrong with it. This is something I find very important with any rifle intended for long term use.
The chances of being attacked by a gang around here is about as remote as being attacked by a zombie. Civil unrest chances are very low too. Our country community pulls together when something bad happens. My little black rifle does a nice job on deer, coyotes, and wild dogs.

Creature
August 29, 2008, 08:10 AM
no varmint calibers, especially when varmints are shooting back.
hasnt the .223 proven itself in the last 40+ years as an efficient man killer?

Yes...yes it has. Unless of course you are dealing with distances like those you would encountered in the mountains or river basins of Afghanistan. Remember, we are talking about situations that would be encountered here in the States...not overseas in a hostile environment operating in a S&D mode of operation.

And no, after 40+ years, there is still more than adequate evidence to call the fight stopping power of the 5.56 in to question. We don't argue it on this very forum twice a week because nothing exists to the contrary.

If that is the case, than going into "combat" (...whatever that might be in a domestic environment) with anything less than a M2 50cal is folly.

Sparks2112
August 29, 2008, 08:45 AM
Any AK-47 variant with the proper hardware gets the job done for me. I'm moving away from FAL's, too much gun. As far as what I would use it for?

Honestly the only situation I can really think of likely to occur in South-West Ohio would be an active shooter. Possibly a riot (we had one of those not too too long ago) but the police are usually pretty on top of that. So yeah, active shooter.

The Great Mahoo
August 29, 2008, 02:15 PM
My go to long-arms would most likely be my 1897-pump shotgun, or if I ever decide to lay out the cash for more mags, my Saiga 12k auto shotgun. If situation dictates a rifle, my first choice would be one of my lever-action .45's. If things are really nasty, my FNFAL clone, but I doubt it would ever come to that. About the worst I'd have to worry about around here is small-time break-ins, which the shotguns would take care of nicely.

MTMilitiaman
August 29, 2008, 03:30 PM
Yes...yes it has. Unless of course you are dealing with distances like those you would encountered in the mountains or river basins of Afghanistan. Remember, we are talking about situations that would be encountered here in the States...not overseas in a hostile environment operating in a S&D mode of operation.

Yeah, like this right?

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l308/MTMilitiaman/Misc%20pics/SacPeak021024.jpg

O wait, no you were talking about Afghanistan, not Montana. You're right. A poodle shooter is all anybody needs :rolleyes:

If that is the case, than going into "combat" (...whatever that might be in a domestic environment) with anything less than a M2 50cal is folly.

Not 8 rounds a second, but we got that covered too:

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l308/MTMilitiaman/Guns/50calsideclose.jpg

threegun
August 29, 2008, 05:49 PM
The rifle is just a tool. I am capable of handling any situation with a variety of rifles. So for me the attributes don't change based on the need.

Yes the rifle is just a tool. If the need leans more toward certain attributes in a cartridge, would it not be prudent to select a cartridge better suited for those needs, assuming your capabilities are the same with both?

I'm just re thinking my needs so that I can choose the more appropriate "tool" in advance.

Microgunner
August 29, 2008, 05:59 PM
I've owned one .308 military platform rifle, a surplus L1A1 SLR from CAI. That sucker hung up as much as it fired and it was tough to clear. Be careful what system and rifle you choose.

David Armstrong
August 29, 2008, 06:00 PM
Again, I don't think it matters. 223, 308, 303, 30-06, 30 carbine, 30/30, .22LR. This idea that the caliber is going to make much, if any, difference in the outcome of most situations is just silly.

Microgunner
August 29, 2008, 06:28 PM
This idea that the caliber is going to make much, if any, difference in the outcome of most situations is just silly.



I disagree

The Great Mahoo
August 29, 2008, 06:51 PM
I've owned one .308 military platform rifle, a surplus L1A1 SLR from CAI. That sucker hung up as much as it fired and it was tough to clear

I have the same gun and never had any problems with it. Not so much as a miss-feed in the ~5 years I've owned it. Of course, I rarely shoot it anymore, so next time I take it out it may very well fall apart just to spite me.

jrothWA
August 30, 2008, 12:37 AM
competition.
I prefer the power of the .30 cal, using POA/POI I know that an incapacitating hit occurred.

5.56 simply doesn't do it. If it all I have then it's going to be used.
Look at the different ammo now used, the 55gr original load (supposed to tear an arm off with a shoulder hit), the 69gr penetrator, the 75gr long range.

Look what happen in the "Blackhawk down situation, wrong ammo wasn't delivering the incapcitation, 7.62 shows up no problem.

I'll even take a 30/30 or a M1 Carbine.

R1145
August 30, 2008, 01:19 AM
My first choice would be an AR-type carbine, because of ammo and parts availability and ergonomics. Even in a SHTF situation, I think most engagements will be at relatively close range.

Unfortunately, I live in Kalifornia, and can't own a real AR. Fortunately, I have one at work, and will probably be on duty in any extreme situation anyway.

I've got a CMP Garand and two cans of M2 ball: Good enough.

shaman
August 30, 2008, 03:41 AM
it was a scary night...

property beside ours on the night of the king riots.

people were literally screaming out our names, calling threats across the fence.

the sherriffs department refused to come down there.

i roughly figured there were over a hundred of them, i saw guns in the crappy binocs i had, and later some folks shot guns into the air right at the property line.

i postitioned myself about two hundred feet from the property line, prone with a drop off behind me, with a 308 galil on a bipod. i only had three 25 round mags for it.

i had a clayco ak underfolder with five mags.

i had no pistol with me. at the house i had two repro 1858 remington 44 blackpowder pistols loaded as absolute last ditch.

my brother was about 75 feet behind me and to my right with my other AK.

my eleven year old nephew had a 1022 with a 25 rounder back at the house.

my mom had only an old webley pistol.

inside the house was an old model 12 with a broken extractor and a worn out ejector, but it had a round of number ones in the barrell. there were three 25's for the 1022 and some 10 rounders, there was an old springfield 22(that had been retired when it once went full auto shooting at a squirrel) loaded up. there was an old iver johnson 20 gauge with a load of buckshot in it. there was a garrett arms repro of an 1859 sharps cavalry carbine loaded with a 375 grain bullet in front of 60 grains of FF blackpowder.

the plan was for me to open up with the galil when they began crossing the fence, one mag then pull back halfway to the brother. my mom was to phone 911 when she heard the galil open up and tell em they better get something there cause is a gun battle going on now.

when i began the pull back he was to open up untill i began firing again in next position. leapfrog like that till...

third mag gone, drop the galil and we would go to single aimed(as good as we could aim in the dark) shots, holding our ground and moving up and down a shallow ditch, unless we were recieving lots of fire, in which case we would fall past an open area and i would go to block and the brother would get past me and circle to my left to try and establish enfilade on the attackers from a treeline there with big pines.

we had two pump shotguns and all the buckshot and slugs in the house in two bags positioned on the road after the wide spot. if we had to or one of us was hit the other was to get to the house and go through the crappy guns there and then...then...die i guess.

sounds crazy doesnt it?

it happened.

east texas.

i was very very very scared.

they never crossed the fence. gangs of em would come to the fence and yell and shoot guns into the air. i could not, simply could not shoot them untill they crossed the fence onto our property.

i lay there all night shivering with fear. my brother the same. i drank the canteen of water i had with me and the pint pilots flask, later my brother said he was parched also.

we decided, the whole family there, that we were gonna fight, that we were not gonna be victims of these people. we decided these people were NOT going to run us off our own property.

i was pretty sure the galil would have shut em down.

these were drunken, doped up folks we were dealing with, wanting to be all angry and act all bigshot.

i was flat out hoping that once i dusted some of em the rest would run.

thank god it didnt happen.



it was almost surreal to hold my M1A in my hands with intent to protect halfway between mount bellvue and dayton texas in stopped traffic the night of the horrid rita evacuation.

recently ive bought a little ar carbine. im beginning to trust it wont jam every shot.

it may become a go to gun.

right now im still on with the M1A or the hk91 clone or the short barrelled mossy 500.

bad time to post. late night, toothache keepin me awake,

now im literally shivering, remembering how freakin scared i was that night with all them people on the next property and the rita thing where it took 22 hours to go 110 miles.

its gonna be a long long night i think.



i aint a bit afraid to admit i was very afraid both of those times, but i knew i had family to protect and i knew i had to, i had to do whatever it would have taken to protect them.

no man threatens me on my own property...

Microgunner
August 30, 2008, 07:38 AM
What a great accounting.

Creature
August 30, 2008, 07:45 AM
O wait, no you were talking about Afghanistan, not Montana. You're right. A poodle shooter is all anybody needs

Oh wait, we were talking about a SD rifle (ala "fighting rifle")...what was I thinking? Your right, I forgot that you will be picking off "the threat" that is on that other hill...a hill that is here in the states.

For me its riots, looters, and gang trouble.
Must be lots of terrorists, looters and gangbangers out to get us in them there hills of Montanny. Aliens too.

threegun
August 30, 2008, 07:48 AM
Shaman, Thanks for the story and glad you and yours came away ok.

Your story is kinda what I imagined initially......potentially being attacked by a bunch of men in which case the 223 would be the more efficient caliber because it allows for such fast follow up shots. Now that I have more information and experience with what one might expect from riots, looters, and gang problems, I don't think the need for super fast followups is as great as penetration of each round. Especially in the urban environment which I live.

Sarge
August 30, 2008, 08:04 AM
My 'fighting rifle needs' have been filled quite handily by a 94 Winchester and a coat pocket full of WW 150 Power-Points or Silvertips. Of course we were just after bank robbers, killers etc. so it probably isn't relevant to the current thinking.

threegun
August 30, 2008, 08:16 AM
This idea that the caliber is going to make much, if any, difference in the outcome of most situations is just silly.

Remember David I'm simply trying to select in advance a weapon/caliber combination that provides me the attributes that best serve my expected purpose.

If I expect a greater need for penetration then caliber certainly does matter. If I expected a wave attack caliber would also matter.

Take your 10/22 or AR in 223 and try to reach the BG's shooting from behind a vehicle or a block fence or even a dumpster. Yeah I know you are so good that you'll hit them in the head when they pop out to fire right. Well I'm good also.....better than most......I'm also realistic. The pressure of a shootout combined with the erratic movement of the BG's will surely spoil my aim. Same reason we are taught to shoot for COM if I had a rifle chambered in a caliber that could penetrate alot of cover I could increase the size of my target and thus my chances for survival.

These are the reasons I feel caliber matters. It may not matter much but it certainly matters. When you have done just about everything you can to ensure your survival....even the small advantages could be huge.

Creature
August 30, 2008, 08:19 AM
I don't think the need for super fast followups is as great as penetration of each round. Especially in the urban environment which I live.

Not me, I am the other away around. I have shot both the M14 (M1A), the M16 (AR15) as well as the M1 Garand in competition. For me, I know that with my .223, I can very effectively place my shots at 500 yrds with iron sights against a stationary target. At 300 yrds, I can effectively place my shots with rapid fire. Moving targets get fairly easy at 200 yrds.

I have been to the training centers and have done the penetration tests with 5.56, the 7.62x51mm and the 7.62x39mm, both on brick and cinder block faced "structures" as well as against automobiles. All rounds penetrated the building material effectively, although the 5.56 did need one or two extra rounds to take down the barrier enough for the follow-on shots to be a lethal to however was behind the barrier. As for the automobile test, none of the rounds had trouble penetrating and destroying the "occupants" inside. The only safe areas that offered even a modicum of cover was the engine block and the axle areas.

So, for me, in an urban environment...and NOT the foot hills of Montana, the 223 is all I will need.

threegun
August 30, 2008, 08:21 AM
Sarge,

My 'fighting rifle needs' have been filled quite handily by a 94 Winchester and a coat pocket full of WW 150 Power-Points or Silvertips. Of course we were just after bank robbers, killers etc. so it probably isn't relevant to the current thinking.


Works for you then its ok. I just prefer something better suited for the worst case scenario. I love my 94....light and handy.

threegun
August 30, 2008, 08:28 AM
Creature, That was my thinking for years. Now I'm worried about the guys not in but on the other side of the car. I don't want to have to fire multiple rounds to exposed someone behind a block wall. Basically I'm questioning the need for speed over the need for penetration. It's driving me crazy.

Creature
August 30, 2008, 08:36 AM
No one is going to want to stay behind a vehicle that is being shot up with 223...trust me. They would be seriously maimed or dead if they stayed.

You should go to the Hernando gun shoot next year and watch the live fire against cars. Most people watch the M2's and the MG42's. But pay attention to the guys with the AR's and what the results are when used against a vehicle in terms of anti-personnel effectiveness. I am always amazed at what that round is capable of...I have always wonder why that round is so disparaged when it is so dang effective.

threegun
August 30, 2008, 09:11 AM
Creature I saw the Box o Truth against a vehicle. The 308 passed through the vehicle and the 223 dented the other side. I'm not allowed to have steel core ammunition which I'm sure would have helped Both get better.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot4_2.htm

I noticed that the 223 also deflected upward from it original path. Check out page one were the hits are then see the exit holes on page 2.

David Armstrong
August 30, 2008, 10:38 AM
Remember David I'm simply trying to select in advance a weapon/caliber combination that provides me the attributes that best serve my expected purpose.
As happens so often, if you would spend just a little time and money getting some training from professionals in the field you'd realize how silly so much of what you worry about really is. You keep trying to find a hardware solution to what is a software problem.
Take your 10/22 or AR in 223 and try to reach the BG's shooting from behind a vehicle or a block fence or even a dumpster
With the 10/22 I would select different tactics/responses. The AR is quite capable of reaching the BG behind the vehicle or fence. Your .308 might or might not reach behind the dumpster. The caliber doesn't determine your success.
Yeah I know you are so good that you'll hit them in the head when they pop out to fire right.
Sigh. Please let me make my own claims regarding my abilities. For you to continually make things up gets old.
if I had a rifle chambered in a caliber that could penetrate alot of cover I could increase the size of my target and thus my chances for survival.
Sounds to me like you are planning on wasting a lot of ammo.
When you have done just about everything you can to ensure your survival....even the small advantages could be huge.
Sigh. Playing "what if" on the internet, trying to get some support for your questionable decision-making, gives no advantage small or large. You want something that will increase your chances a whole lot--get some tactical training behind you. Then you'll understand why these "small advantages' aren't advantages at all.

David Armstrong
August 30, 2008, 10:41 AM
My 'fighting rifle needs' have been filled quite handily by a 94 Winchester and a coat pocket full of WW 150 Power-Points or Silvertips. Of course we were just after bank robbers, killers etc. so it probably isn't relevant to the current thinking.
Well said. Few situations that can't be handled with a '94 and a man that knows how to use it.

MTMilitiaman
August 30, 2008, 01:19 PM
For me its riots, looters, and gang trouble.
Must be lots of terrorists, looters and gangbangers out to get us in them there hills of Montanny. Aliens too.

Attributing quotes to people who didn't say them isn't a good way to further your argument, esp when the entire debate is written down as a matter of public record, and your claims can be so easily disproved.

Just a hint...

Maybe you weren't trying to attribute the last quote to me, but I said no such thing. And I am guessing the poster who did isn't from Montana. I realize two is a large number for us country folk, but maybe if you are that easily confused, you should stick to building blocks and Crayolas ;)

Creature
August 30, 2008, 04:42 PM
Creature I saw the Box o Truth against a vehicle. The 308 passed through the vehicle and the 223 dented the other side.

You really should try it for yourself. What I have seen and done for myself is quite contrary to the box of truth results. The only area of relative safety was behind the engine block and the axle areas...and not even the 7.62x51 was able to penetrate through them either.

shaman
August 30, 2008, 07:20 PM
the question was what do you expect to need for your fighting rifle to be.

that night i needed the galil to be an M60.

MrNiceGuy
August 30, 2008, 07:25 PM
i expect that i'll need it for weekly trips out to the range, and to make the inside of my safe look prettier.


i dont expect to need to defend myself from a riot or gangs, but i always like being prepared for the unexpected

tshadow6
August 31, 2008, 05:23 AM
The main use for my SKS is cheap plinking. Of course, living in Florida I face the very real possibilty of looters after a hurricane. I'm not too worried about riots, where I live everyone works for a living. I would use my SKS to keep looters off my block.

Double Naught Spy
August 31, 2008, 07:17 AM
In what order do you put the following attributes for your fighting rifle (most important first)?

amount of ammo that can be carried for it
stopping power
speed of followup shot
ability to penetrate cover

For me, this is for ranges out to no more than 100 yards, urban environment.

I would add to the criteria some additions.

ease of use (some rifles are not as ergonomic as others and hence are more efficient [slower] in bringing to bear and land shots on the target)
compact size (carbine, collapsible stock for easier storage and use in tight quarters)

threegun
August 31, 2008, 10:18 AM
As happens so often, if you would spend just a little time and money getting some training from professionals in the field you'd realize how silly so much of what you worry about really is. You keep trying to find a hardware solution to what is a software problem.

And as so often happens you assume that I have not trained with my rifle. You assume just because I want the best tool for the job, that I cannot make due with what I have available and thats just rediculous.

There is no professional training David that will allow you to shoot as fast and accurate a follow up shot with a 308 as a 223. Just as if your needs lean toward penetration no training will make a 223 punch holes like a 308.

The caliber doesn't determine your success.


It can limit your options though. The more limits the greater chance of getting hurt IMO.

You want something that will increase your chances a whole lot--get some tactical training behind you. Then you'll understand why these "small advantages' aren't advantages at all.

Have it already. I'll never understand how a "small advantage" isn't advantagous. I guess with that thinking a small disadvantage isn't a disadvantage at all either.

threegun
August 31, 2008, 10:20 AM
Creature, Thanks. So you don't think the difference in penetration is worth the extra recoil and reduced ammo load?

threegun
August 31, 2008, 10:27 AM
Thanks to all who answered the question without poking fun or making assumptions.

Creature
August 31, 2008, 04:41 PM
So you don't think the difference in penetration is worth the extra recoil and reduced ammo load?

Not really. I respect what your trying to achieve in regards to penetration. But against the types of cover that could be encountered in a urban environment, I am more than satisfied with what the 223 brings to the fight..or, if you like, I am willing to deal with its limitations and adapt.

Unless you are defending against a comparably armed and well-coordinated mob (or even a smaller sized "gang"), the fire-power offered by the 223 is up to the task. I don't expect to reach through cars or cinder block walls to stop a threat on a regular basis. But if I am forced to do so, based on my own observations, I am more than confident that the 223 will be able to do it in a couple or three well placed shots.

For me, the M4-style carbine has proven itself as the best compromise between terminal ballistics and ease of employment. The carbine is as big as I want to get in terms a fighting rifle in the close quarters of a urban environment. The M1A/M-14 is a superb battle rifle, but it is just too big and heavy and wears me out. I dont want to unessasrily fatigue myself when I need to be shootin' and scootin' against a fast moving and street-savvy opponent. (Maybe I should work out some more?)

But like I said, that's me. Certainly, if penetration is king for you, the 7.62x51 will punch that ticket. I wouldn't mind if you showed up at my house to offer a hand in turning back the hordes.

threegun
August 31, 2008, 05:31 PM
Creature,

I respect what your trying to achieve in regards to penetration.

The M-4 in 223 is my current go to rifle if the poop ever hit the fan. I love it. Still if another caliber could offer me even the smallest of advantage in even the rarest of occassions while still great for the majority of occassions.....why not?

Jermtheory
August 31, 2008, 05:41 PM
Not really. I respect what your trying to achieve in regards to penetration. But against the types of cover that could be encountered in a urban environment, I am more than satisfied with what the 223 brings to the fight..or, if you like, I am willing to deal with its limitations and adapt.

Unless you are defending against a comparably armed and well-coordinated mob (or even a smaller sized "gang"), the fire-power offered by the 223 is up to the task. I don't expect to reach through cars or cinder block walls to stop a threat on a regular basis. But if I am forced to do so, based on my own observations, I am more than confident that the 223 will be able to do it in a couple or three well placed shots.

For me, the M4-style carbine has proven itself as the best compromise between terminal ballistics and ease of employment. The carbine is as big as I want to get in terms a fighting rifle in the close quarters of a urban environment. The M1A/M-14 is a superb battle rifle, but it is just too big and heavy and wears me out. I dont want to unessasrily fatigue myself when I need to be shootin' and scootin' against a fast moving and street-savvy opponent. (Maybe I should work out some more?)

But like I said, that's me. Certainly, if penetration is king for you, the 7.62x51 will punch that ticket. I wouldn't mind if you showed up at my house to offer a hand in turning back the hordes.

^^^^ agreed.

Still if another caliber could offer me even the smallest of advantage in even the rarest of occassions while still great for the majority of occassions.....why not?

its a trade off.

your "smallest of advantage" comes with other disadvantages.

a trade that i personally wouldnt make...but to each his own.

The Bishop
August 31, 2008, 05:42 PM
Are you planning on walking the streets during a riot or natural disaster ? If so, yea go with any rifle, pistol, or gun you can get your hands on.

However, for home defense, I would go with a pistol or 12 Ga.shotgun with 00buck.

The Bishop

Deaf Smith
August 31, 2008, 06:18 PM
It must load on Sunday and shoot all week. Be reliable enough to go through that whole week without a hickup. Shoots strait and hits hard as far as I can reliably hit. Light and short. And afford lots of practice (cause skill is number one in my book.)

Right now my two Bushie ARs fill the bill. Just spent this morining sighting in one (BUIS was on, but scope not) and it shoot wonderfully. The other one, with Ashly rear sight, was already dead on at 200 yards and has my 'no touchie' stamp on it, meaning it works right and leave it alone!

Sure there are others that will do the same. A good AK, good FAL (I'd like to get a DSA para model myself), SOCOM M1A, and others but the AR is what I have and it does quite fine.

See I don't split hairs and worry over charts and graphs that give one a .002 percent better this or better that. My Bushies are fine, just like alot of other good guns out there.

David Armstrong
September 1, 2008, 04:32 PM
And as so often happens you assume that I have not trained with my rifle.
Nope, never siad that. I said you need formal tactical training. That you consider the two the same is part of the problem, IMO.
You assume just because I want the best tool for the job, that I cannot make due with what I have available and thats just rediculous.
As we've discussed before, if you'd talk about what was said instead of making things up the discussion would go much smoother.
There is no professional training David that will allow you to shoot as fast and accurate a follow up shot with a 308 as a 223. Just as if your needs lean toward penetration no training will make a 223 punch holes like a 308.

Again, the fact that you would discuss those in the same context as training indicates how much you need the training.
Have it already.
You need to make up your mind. The last discussion revolved around the fact that you had had no formal training and why you thought you didn't need any because you'd read some books and watched some videos.
It can limit your options though.
It changes your options. Whether that is a limit for you, well, you're the only one who can decide that.
I'll never understand how a "small advantage" isn't advantagous.
As Jermtheory said, "...its a trade off. your "smallest of advantage" comes with other disadvantages."

threegun
September 1, 2008, 04:34 PM
See I don't split hairs and worry over charts and graphs that give one a .002 percent better this or better that.

I wish I could just relax, sit back, and not worry about it LOL. Not so much charts and graph as potential needs vs rifle/caliber attributes.

shaman
September 1, 2008, 04:41 PM
to me, weighin in at around 290, shooting the ar is about like going at it with a 1022.



id LOVE to do some formal training, but with my size id be picked as the target!!!!

threegun
September 1, 2008, 05:34 PM
Nope, never said that. I said you need formal tactical training. That you consider the two the same is part of the problem, IMO.


Thank god its just your opinion. I was beginning to think that I can't do the very same things being taught in "formal training" since I learned them a different way than you.

You need to make up your mind. The last discussion revolved around the fact that you had had no formal training and why you thought you didn't need any because you'd read some books and watched some videos.


Didn't say formal training. As I have stated numerous times I use the same tactics as taught to you and others by the pros. I run the same drills. Only I had to do it myself. I'm quite positive that there isn't anything you can do that I haven't done or cannot do. You just paid a lot more and have a nice piece of paper to show for it. Are you better? We'll never know. My money is on me though.

your "smallest of advantage" comes with other disadvantages.

And the reason for my post. I'm looking for educated input to assist me with this very issue. Instead you give assumptions and sarcasm. I understand that you have been conditioned to make due with what you have and that the tool isn't the key but the training is........I agree with a twist......I want the tool that can excell in the most of my expected scenarios. Since I get to prepare and train in advance.

It changes your options. Whether that is a limit for you, well, you're the only one who can decide that.


Given my expected uses the 10/22 will limit the options of whoever selects it.

Hook686
September 1, 2008, 05:54 PM
A battle with Coyote ?

NMWPerk
September 1, 2008, 11:14 PM
Well, my current "battle rifle" is my Beretta CX4 Storm...in 9mm.

The way I look at it presently (and anyone is welcome to try and change my mind with some good advice) I am going primarily for defense and even a
9mm Carbine will convince people to keep their heads down. Should the worst happen (whatever the "worst" might be) I don't see myself sitting still for too long unless there is no other choice. My goal would be to get into a rural, less populated area (not hard in northern/western Maine) and finding a place for me and mine to camp out.

Since I travel a lot, I have one pistol/rifle for transit to home and another for moving from home to wherever.

To get home I have my Beretta Cougar 8040 and a Marlin 30-30 Lever action. Once I get home (after a quick trip to a secure location that is) I have my Glock 22 and some gear for wearing it as well as several Magazines to get to a safe place. As mentioned, my CX4 will be joining me as well.

WAP

Derius_T
September 2, 2008, 03:35 AM
The AR-15 (M4 variant) is a great weapon. Ammo is plentiful, rate of fire is good, ease of use, alot of accessories and spare parts, and is an easy rifle to maintain. The only drawbacks in my book to the round, is it certain conditions, and at distance, it can tend to be a bit under powered. Not a bad rifle to have in capable hands by any means.

I like the AK for the same reasons, plus it has more punch, and you can treat it like an ex-wife and it will still shoot. In a serious situation where weapon maintenance might not happen for extended periods of time, you can't go wrong with the AK. You can drop that baby in the swamp, drain the barrel and come out fighting. It can take real word abuses that would cause other rifles to malfunction.

As far as inside 50 yards or closer, if I had the choice I would definitely grab a "combat" shotgun. Nothing is more effective, or easier to use, especially in conditions where careful, scoped aiming may not be an option. The short barreled shotty is probably my first grab in home invasion situation. There are semi-auto "drum" fed models, short barreled, pistol gripped, and will hold a box of alternating slug, 00, or whatever you want to feed it. Hard to go wrong there.

threegun
September 2, 2008, 07:35 AM
It seems that my worry over penetration may be unwarranted. Thanks for all the help guys. I'm gonna get the AR in 308 anyway but it won't replace my 223's as my go to unless its followups are not to far off.

I appreciate the discussion.

pax
September 2, 2008, 09:11 AM
I think this one has run its course.

pax