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Saab1911
August 28, 2008, 09:12 AM
I'm a mild mannered guy usually, but when I get riled up, I swear like a Marine.

So, I can easily imagine that if I have to tell a perp that he's about to get
shot or if I'm telling an intruder to freeze, get on the ground,
put hands behind his head and don't move, I would interlace a lot of
expletives in between the words that convey actual instructions.

Would the expletives come back to haunt me later? If there are witnesses
that hear me hurl invectives at the perp, the perp still charges and I shoot
him down, do you think a slimy lawyer can twist the situation into one in
which I provoked the perp with my salty language?

Cheers,

Jae

David Armstrong
August 28, 2008, 09:16 AM
do you think a slimy lawyer can twist the situation into one in
which I provoked the perp with my salty language?
Doesn't have to be a slimy lawyer. Any lawyer worth his salt will certainly look into the language used in a situation. If it helps his client's case, you can bet it will be brought up.

Glenn E. Meyer
August 28, 2008, 09:26 AM
1. Many classes mention the fact that if you swear, it might convey that you are trying to act like a tough guy and your judgement was impeded towards the commando and maybe shooting when you shouldn't.

2. As we know from years of practical experience and court research, such issues can sway a jury. If you in your frenzy come up with a racial epithet - well, isn't that special.

3. It is the assumption of the internet that felons, psychopaths and other denizens of the night are intimidated by regular old folks saying dirty words. They live in an environment of violence and curses. You ain't saying anything they haven't heard.

They might be more impressed by someone who is rational and not seemingly in a scared, babbling, frenzy.

Time to train for real as compared to fantasizing. Think about what to do if as you yell MF, CS blah, blah - blah, and said miscreant fails to comply. Just gets up and walks to the door.

Was this a trick, troll question, BTW?

black
August 28, 2008, 09:31 AM
I wonder about this myself. I don't have a foul mouth at all, but i don't speak like Martha Stewart either.

I was taught to be firm and loud. there is no negotiating.


There is a "STOOOOOOOOOP!" and if they don't stop immediately, it's 2 to the chest.

David Armstrong
August 28, 2008, 09:39 AM
They might be more impressed by someone who is rational and not seemingly in a scared, babbling, frenzy.
Had a con tell me the most frightened he had ever been was when an elderly lady caught him burgling her home. He said that, in the sweetest granma voice you ever heard, from back in the shadows he heard "Excuse me young man, but you are standing where I am about to shoot. "

Saab1911
August 28, 2008, 09:42 AM
Was this a trick, troll question, BTW?


What's with people on this forum identifying everybody as trolls? :confused:

No. It was a serious question.


He said that, in the sweetest granma voice you ever heard, from back in the shadows he heard "Excuse me young man, but you are standing where I am about to shoot. "


That's good. I'll try to remember that.

Without thinking and talking about this first, if SHTF I would most likely have strung together a bunch of MF, CS for sure, POS definitely, GD yes ... you get the idea. That's just how I talk when I get angry. But I would not have used any racial epithets. Those are not in my vocabulary.

And yes again, it was a serious question :rolleyes: , and it appears that others have given the same issue some thought.

Glenn E. Meyer
August 28, 2008, 09:47 AM
It's when people ask posturing questions that have been answered many times. If it was real, then I'm sorry for my cynicism. :(

However, the answer is that it's not a good idea. Be rational and cool.

Also, folks like Don't Move better than FREEZE - based on the plosive /d/ as compared to the wussy glide into the F.

Last, if you babble too much - it diverts cognitive capacity - cell phone when driving effect - that's when you get in trouble.

TATER
August 28, 2008, 10:32 AM
From Childhood I was told two simple rules..
1_A gun is never pulled to intimidate or persuade “you're not law enforcement”
2_There is never a situation so bad that it requires a gun. “Let that sink in a second”
ie._If you have to pull a gun, The Situation Is Well Past 1 & 2....
And all ways know, If a gun is pulled, It is to be used!!!

I’m not going to say a word.......

Saab1911
August 28, 2008, 10:46 AM
From Childhood I was told two simple rules..
1_A gun is never pulled to intimidate or persuade “you're not law enforcement”
2_There is never a situation so bad that it requires a gun. “Let that sink in a second”
ie._If you have to pull a gun, The Situation Is Well Past 1 & 2....
And all ways know, If a gun is pulled, It is to be used!!!


I would rather try to get the guy on the ground with hands behind his head
and try to call the police first before I take a life. But, that's just me.

TATER
August 28, 2008, 11:08 AM
I put them down reversed....2 is 1. But, you got the idea.
If you’re going to play in those waters, know that you're
putting your self and or family at risk!!
You need to go and take some classes..they will tell you what to say..
No need for sarcasm,

fastforty
August 28, 2008, 12:47 PM
Keep it simple. A forceful "STOP!" is all that is needed, if the BG doesn't comply, the next sound is "BANG!". ANY derogatory remark will come back to bite you in the butt. Even "Freeze, DIRTBAG!" shows that you have already determined that the aggressor is less then human. We know how the BG's "Human Rights" are upheld in court & you've already reduced yourself below him.

All of the catchy movie lines are out. Your objective isn't to "blow a bog hole" in him, or to "ruin his family's Christmas" or anything else of the like. Your objective is to "STOP!" the attack, make that objective clear and concise & it will remain so in court.

Recon7
August 28, 2008, 12:57 PM
How often do you take down "perps"?
IMHO they either need to be shot or let go. that doesn't mean don't call the cops, just don't try to go around detaining perps.
there is a good thread about citizens arrest here (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298530)

hogdogs
August 28, 2008, 01:08 PM
I guess I am selfish prick... I have no inclination to warn anyone. I am in my home and a person has entered into it thus I am scared that this brazen individual may cause harm to me and mine. For him to run out means he MAY return, I would invoke my right to defend my family. No ifs ands or buts or warnings. Giving a warning depletes a bit of my advantage as well.
Brent

Saab1911
August 28, 2008, 01:14 PM
IMHO they either need to be shot or let go. that doesn't mean don't call the cops, just don't try to go around detaining perps.


That's a good point. My first objective is to protective me and mine.

So, the objective is to warn him, and give the perp an out so that he would
run away? If the bad-guy keeps coming toward me, I take him down?

What if the bad guy is rain-man and he stops when I yell STOP! :confused:

I see your point, but I think there really are three options. 1) Leave an
avenue for escape for the morally challenged individual. He runs away 2) Put
a cap in his buttocks 3) Or detain him and call police.

What if the bad guy comes back with his friends so that I will not be alive
to identify him?

Nope, detaining the perp, however hazardous sounds like a good option.
If he moves a muscle, I'll be justified in taking his life because he was
fairly warned.

And no salty language. Check.


I guess I am selfish prick... I have no inclination to warn anyone. I am in my home and a person has entered into it thus I am scared that this brazen individual may cause harm to me and mine. For him to run out means he MAY return, I would invoke my right to defend my family. No ifs ands or buts or warnings. Giving a warning depletes a bit of my advantage as well.


That's a good point too, but how will it hold up in court?
What if your neighbors say they didn't hear a warning before the gunshot?

Keltyke
August 28, 2008, 01:16 PM
Glen and I are actually in 100% agreement on this. :eek:

"Anything you say can be held against you in court."

Anything you say, other than the direct command, is distracting from what you want the guy to do. Any excess verbiage takes time you may not have to get his attention.

Angry? There's no need to get angry. You need to be cold and calm to perform as needed to save your life.

"I shot the man to save my life."

sounds a lot better than

"The scumbag came at me, so I popped a cap in his butt just to teach the MF a lesson."

hogdogs
August 28, 2008, 01:26 PM
Even in the city limits... my neighbors would not have heard a warning unless they were right outside. My nearest neighbor now may not even here the blast where I live now, if they did they surely wouldn't know where it came from. But in court, a neighbor hearing or not hearing a warning holds no water as they could easily have missed it or even heard the perp warning me... It is not my legal responsibility to offer warning. I am in no way required to do so. I am morally required to do my best to protect my family. If i am not 100% positive it is an intruder my likely statement would be a simple "MAY I HELP YOU?" if I do not recognize the voice as someone allowed in my home I MUST fire instantly as I have given up the element of surprise and stealth.
Brent

Saab1911
August 28, 2008, 01:26 PM
"Anything you say can be held against you in court."

Anything you say, other than the direct command, is distracting from what you want the guy to do. Any excess verbiage takes time you may not have to get his attention.

Angry? There's no need to get angry. You need to be cold and calm to perform as needed to save your life.

"I shot the man to save my life."

sounds a lot better than

"The scumbag came at me, so I popped a cap in his butt just to teach the MF a lesson."


I'm gettin' it.

Until I asked the question, a life and death situation seemed to call for
salty language, but now I know differently.

Recon7
August 28, 2008, 01:31 PM
What if the bad guy is rain-man and he stops when I yell STOP!
tell him make yourself comfortable the police are on their way, if he wants to leave, let him. Stopping the guy from leaving is no longer self defense. It is hard enough to justify use of force in self defense, I don't want to get charged with assault and kidnapping because I forcably detained a person until the cops arrived. Even if you are 100% in the right it would not be a fun court case.

Nope, detaining the perp, however hazardous sounds like a good option.
If he moves a muscle, I'll be justified in taking his life because he was
fairly warned.

NO you can't shoot him in the back if he gets up to leave.

What if the bad guy comes back with his friends so that I will not be alive
to identify him?

This is only a factor if the attack happens at your home or work where the guy will be able to find you later. You have a point I wouldn't want to be looking over by shoulder the rest of my life either. If you are worried about retaliation, you may want to consider that a guy you citizens arrested could get out on bail and go after you or get you after serving a short stint in prison. If anything, arresting a person may make retaliation more likely. It's a lose, lose situation. Even if you kill the guy he may have friends.

Sidewinder6
August 28, 2008, 01:32 PM
Its called learning to Speak to the Jury. Never say anything you woundnt want to hear played back to you in a court room.

Fact of the matter is, you dont need to say a thing.

Brian Pfleuger
August 28, 2008, 01:55 PM
Fact of the matter is, you dont need to say a thing.


I guess I am selfish prick... I have no inclination to warn anyone.


Don't forget gentlemen that there a re a fair number of jurisdictions that require not only a verbal warning but also retreat. I'd rather swear like a parrot and give the guy a warning than not say a word and be in jail for murder.

Jae, I don't think anyone has mentioned it but profanity has no place in SD.;)

fjk1911
August 28, 2008, 01:56 PM
If I feel that my life is jeopardized my full focus will be on avoiding or neutralizing the threat - e.g. running away if possible or permanently stopping the threat so as to save my life.

I see it as similar to flying (I was a pilot in a younger life)... you are taught to aviate, navigate and lastly, communicate when you are in trouble. Flying is similar to most of life - thousands of hours of boredom with just a few seconds of adrenaline pumping fright. Gain control of the plane, figure out where you are and what have to do next and then talk to a control tower to explain you emergency if need be.

In a life threatening situation my communicating will be with the 911 operator not the threat.

Brian Pfleuger
August 28, 2008, 02:03 PM
In a life threatening situation my communicating will be with the 911 operator not the threat.

That's all well and good and entirely your option. I'm just pointing out that if the law says you must warn or retreat or both and you do not it will certainly be worse for you than if you said "Freeze Dirtbag!" and then shot someone. In some places the lack of warning/retreat COMPLETELY negates the argument of SD.

hogdogs
August 28, 2008, 02:16 PM
In Florida I have no obligation to retreat or warn intruders of my intention to use lethal force in my home or vehicle.
Brent

Saab1911
August 28, 2008, 02:16 PM
That's all well and good and entirely your option. I'm just pointing out that if the law says you must warn or retreat or both and you do not it will certainly be worse for you than if you said "Freeze Dirtbag!" and then shot someone. In some places the lack of warning/retreat COMPLETELY negates the argument of SD.


Some states require retreat within one's own house, which I think is BS.

If I'm in my house and I give the BG a warning and he still comes at me,
I'm taking him down.

Thankfully, in Texas you don't have to retreat, and a warning is optional.

Recon7
August 28, 2008, 02:43 PM
Tango Down :D

language after warning a perp.

fjk1911
August 28, 2008, 02:59 PM
I am certain that I will have said "please put that weapon down and let us discuss this, kind sir" just before 470 grains enter said sir's vital organ cavity.

fastforty
August 28, 2008, 03:22 PM
I realize that laws in some areas border on being insane (ummm, I'm in Kali, remember?), but in a true life or death situation that warranted defending oneself with lethal force there most likely wouldn't be time for a "warning". If there were time for a "warning", there wouldn't be an "imminent & immediate" threat, as most laws require to justify homicide (read: "You didn't *have* to shoot at that moment").

Brian Pfleuger
August 28, 2008, 03:27 PM
No offense intended men. Just pointing out some data for the less inclined to study the laws in their areas.

Carry ON!;)

BikerRN
August 28, 2008, 03:40 PM
My advice, take it for what it's worth as a LEO that gives commands daily, keep it short, well heard and to the point.

STOP
SHOW ME YOUR HANDS
TURN AROUND
GET ON YOUR KNEES

I think you get the point, or at least I hope you do. There is no room for confusion, unless you don't speak english. In that case I can give you those same commands in spanish, any other language I need a translator.

Biker

Nnobby45
August 28, 2008, 03:46 PM
Farnam refers to such phrases as "can't help you", "can I help you sir?", "don't move, drop your weapon", etc, as canned phrases that we learn to use automatically. It's done by practicing, just like we practice shooting.

I think that bad language is typically a result of our own fear and anger (the two are related), and it's already been pointed out that it's not good to appear to be out of control.

Same goes for calling 911---don't act like you've lost it.

Everything we do becomes a matter of public record, and "don't move, drop your weapon" spoken loudly so that all eyes are on you and Bubba, may be as much (I'm not saying more) for the benefit of the record (like witnesses statements) as it is a warning to your assailant.

Doubt we'll ever be more scrutinized than in the aftermath of the type of encounter we all hope never happens.

Samurai
August 28, 2008, 03:54 PM
Citizens' arrests are a BAD idea. They can get you in all kinds of trouble later, ESPECIALLY if you use a gun. Remember: If you pull your gun, and you are not in fear for your life, it's called "assault with a deadly weapon." If you pull your gun and you ARE in fear for your life, you need to stop talking and start shooting!

Nothing says, "please cease and desist," quite like, "BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!..."

Glenn E. Meyer
August 28, 2008, 04:28 PM
Finding a burglar in your living room with arms full of your DVD or china?

Is that a life and death shoot'em? One should consider that. You do have some time. While some folks will say "Castle" and blast him - think that is an always and useful response?

What's a true life and death situation? Is the world black and white?

hogdogs
August 28, 2008, 04:29 PM
Not sure I would maintain this composure but my intended 911 statement would be along these lines... 911: "911 police fire or medical please?" Me:"i think you may want to send police and an ambulance." 911: "Sir what is your emergency? what has happened?" Me:"No rush, no emergency. An intruder has been shot and is not moving, He in xxxxxx room I am going to be UNARMED when the officer arrives. I am the resident along with wife and 2 young adult children... We are all okay and safe... see ya when ya get here... take ya'lls time, Bye... "
Click
Brent

Recon7
August 28, 2008, 04:31 PM
Is the world black and white?
It is green and blue in all the pictures I have seen :D

hogdogs
August 28, 2008, 04:35 PM
It don't matter if he has a roll of toilet paper in one hand and a feather in the other... in florida if a home is invaded by an intruder you can assume that since he is inside an occupied dwelling illegally he is capable of causing serious injury or death if given the chance. A crook that discovers he has been caught could drop those items and pounce in less time than I choose to offer. how fast can a deviant healthy young man cover 12-18 feet? Or draw on you?

Brent

Brian Pfleuger
August 28, 2008, 04:40 PM
Finding a burglar in your living room with arms full of your DVD or china?

Is that a life and death shoot'em? One should consider that. You do have some time. While some folks will say "Castle" and blast him - think that is an always and useful response?

I, for one, will not kill for property. Regardless of whether the law allows it. Assuming your scenario, I would probably raise my gun and say "Stop Right There!" or something similar. If he stops - great, if he runs away - great. If he drops everything and heads my way, now he probably gets shot- especially if he's got a weapon.

David Armstrong
August 28, 2008, 04:48 PM
For him to run out means he MAY return, I would invoke my right to defend my family. No ifs ands or buts or warnings.
So, you think it is better to start a gunfight inside your house with your family present than have the BG leave without further difficulty??

Sparky33
August 28, 2008, 04:50 PM
I guess this is one more reason I love living in Texas. A warning is not required if someone is invading my home. My main concern is protecting me and my soon-to-be wife. The only thing the poor soul is going see/hear is the light from my flashlight quickly followed by a loud bang (or two or three)

David Armstrong
August 28, 2008, 04:55 PM
If he moves a muscle, I'll be justified in taking his life because he was
fairly warned.
As Glenn mentioned, Castle laws aside, in many places once the person is no longer a threat to you youare no longer authorized to use deadly force against him. ANd even if you are, I tend to fall back on "you shoot because you have too, not because you want too." Sorry folks, but shooting somebody and getting away with it is way too iffy to do it unless you absolutely have to, and even then the potential for major loss of resources on your part is huge. At the very least you have to plan on them shooting back at you. I know we all like to think that we are steely eyed dealers of death and will always slay the BG without danger to us becuase we are in the side of right, but in reality shooting people doesn't always work.

hogdogs
August 28, 2008, 05:08 PM
David, It is super smart to realize that once your perp has left he knows you own guns... They are a high ticket black market item... I know a "clean" (not reported stolen) mossberg 500 can bring $500 and a hi-cap handgun can bring a grand if also not reported stolen. Now the perp tries to burglarize when you ain't home but your child may be.
I see every burglar as a potential murderer and will treat any inside my home as such...
If any one thinks they can waltz in my home and rob me is either so stupid he can't know right from wrong or so brazen he knows but chooses wrong! In either case I cannot fathom handing out free passes...
Brent

WINSTON THE WOLF
August 28, 2008, 05:24 PM
I guess I am selfish prick... I have no inclination to warn anyone. I am in my home and a person has entered into it thus I am scared that this brazen individual may cause harm to me and mine. For him to run out means he MAY return, I would invoke my right to defend my family. No ifs ands or buts or warnings. Giving a warning depletes a bit of my advantage as well.
Brent

Hmmm I never thought about this. But I agree with you on this one. I guess if there was an intruder in my home. The click of the hammer being pulled back would be all the warning he would get.

Brian Pfleuger
August 28, 2008, 05:25 PM
The click of the hammer being pulled back would be all the warning he would get.


or the racking of a shotgun;):D

Glenn E. Meyer
August 28, 2008, 05:27 PM
Every one on the internet assume that their shots will kill the 'perp' dead and that will prevent pay back or law suites. What if he doesn't die. Going to shoot him in the head on the ground and defend that with the Castle doctrine? That will be a fine test case.

Well, maybe he is a gang member and many come to your house. Maybe his family will sue you as the forensics show that he wasn't a threat as he was just a drunk who wandered in.

And horrors, all you steely eyed dealers of death think you and your family will come out of a killing happy as clams.

Lots of research show that you may be psychologically and socially messed up. That's why lots of folks teach a challenge if possible.

fjk1911
August 28, 2008, 05:30 PM
In this house there would only be the click of the thumb safety on my 1911 or the click of the top mounted safety on my wife's and son's Mossy's.

No racking a slide or pump and no pulling a hammer back.

Tango Down it is.

hogdogs
August 28, 2008, 05:30 PM
In my case he better have his super sonic ear buds installed as my Mossberg is fully loaded and my safety is real quiet...
serious as a heart attack... That is my goal. Do what I gotta do and call 911. This is a home invasion or robbery and not the time for chit chat.
Brent

hogdogs
August 28, 2008, 05:34 PM
Glenn, He will be dead... I can't take my eyes off the thug to call 911 until he is no longer a threat and I am neither a battlefield surgeon nor mortician I am a simple guy and deciding threat or no threat is as easy as breathing or not breathing...
It is callous but thug life rules say things like live by the gun die by the gun.
Brent

WINSTON THE WOLF
August 28, 2008, 05:36 PM
David, It is super smart to realize that once your perp has left he knows you own guns... They are a high ticket black market item... I know a "clean" (not reported stolen) mossberg 500 can bring $500 and a hi-cap handgun can bring a grand if also not reported stolen. Now the perp tries to burglarize when you ain't home but your child may be.
I see every burglar as a potential murderer and will treat any inside my home as such...
If any one thinks they can waltz in my home and rob me is either so stupid he can't know right from wrong or so brazen he knows but chooses wrong! In either case I cannot fathom handing out free passes...
Brent

I sometimes worry if someone breaks in when I am away from my home. I have a big safe so they know something is valuable in there. But they also will see my best shot targets on the side of it. That gives them something to think about. "Do they feel lucky" When I come home and they are still there. Kind of like a beware of dog sign.........lol

hogdogs
August 28, 2008, 05:42 PM
I permanently attached a bianchi leather holster to the front end of every motorcycle I rode... An empty pistol holster is a scary thing!
Brent

WINSTON THE WOLF
August 28, 2008, 05:45 PM
I permanently attached a bianchi leather holster to the front end of every motorcycle I rode... An empty pistol holster is a scary thing!
Brent

yeah I hear you. I have a couple empty holsters on the safe.:D they don't know how many I have in the safe or have with me........

Deaf Smith
August 28, 2008, 05:49 PM
If you have ever taken a class by Massad Ayoob you will find this issue well addressed. Another good class is one given by SouthNarc on this kind of subject.

Language that provolkes a violent response is not a good idea. Nether is talking to much (you don't need to 'read them their rights' or chit-chat.)

Your language should be in monosyllables. Sort and strait to the point.

If they have a weapon, shout for them to drop it. Not only is that telling them to drop the weapon, but anyone in earshot will hear that and know a weapon was being used.

Just say what is needed to be said and them keep your eyes open! Not only for the threat in front, but anyone to the sides or behind.

cjw3cma
August 28, 2008, 05:51 PM
After careful consideration of how our local sheriff would react to the aftermath -

Someone found in my house without my permission, In a controlled voice I would say "Goodbye" and then proceed to empty the magazine.

For someone caught on my property without my permission, I would do the exact same thing.

If they are stupid enough to try and do their thing on my property or my home, they deserve the aftermath. I once did hold 2 BG's at gunpoint until the police arrived (they had entered my house in San Diego without authorization and it turned out were members of an outlaw motorcycle gang). I was told by the responding officers that I should have saved them all the hassle and just shot them both with the .357 revolver. But at that time I was scared sh*tless and just held them until the cops got there.

Now living in southern Oregon (out in the boonies so to speak) I abide by what I said above. Not as scared anymore.:cool:

Derius_T
August 28, 2008, 06:20 PM
hogdogs wrote:

If i am not 100% positive it is an intruder my likely statement would be a simple "MAY I HELP YOU?" if I do not recognize the voice as someone allowed in my home I MUST fire instantly as I have given up the element of surprise and stealth.

Not sure I would maintain this composure but my intended 911 statement would be along these lines... 911: "911 police fire or medical please?" Me:"i think you may want to send police and an ambulance." 911: "Sir what is your emergency? what has happened?" Me:"No rush, no emergency. An intruder has been shot and is not moving, He in xxxxxx room I am going to be UNARMED when the officer arrives. I am the resident along with wife and 2 young adult children... We are all okay and safe... see ya when ya get here... take ya'lls time, Bye... "

If any one thinks they can waltz in my home and rob me is either so stupid he can't know right from wrong or so brazen he knows but chooses wrong! In either case I cannot fathom handing out free passes...

Glenn, He will be dead... I can't take my eyes off the thug to call 911 until he is no longer a threat and I am neither a battlefield surgeon nor mortician I am a simple guy and deciding threat or no threat is as easy as breathing or not breathing...It is callous but thug life rules say things like live by the gun die by the gun.

I permanently attached a bianchi leather holster to the front end of every motorcycle I rode... An empty pistol holster is a scary thing!

There are alot of people on this board who do not use their heads. So many with such bravado and swagger. So many that seem, comfy in their computer chairs, to have no remorse, and no thought for human life. These attitudes are bad. Thank God that most people with these Clint Eastwood Make My Day attitudes are usually the first to pee their pants or run screaming and shaking when their tough guy button is not engaged, safely behind the internet.

Sorry to pick on you so much hogdogs, its just that you made the most statements that show an attitude that I could most defiantly use against you in court. You make it easy with your own rambo rants to paint you as a murderer. A cold, callous, rambo wanna-be, just waiting to deal out death to anyone who crossed your path, with no thought of remorse or negotiation.

You live your thug life, and how dare they be so brazen to challenge me, and oh yeah 911, take your time, this dude's dead, who cares....

You think these words, and others won't be dug up by a good attorney and used to put you in prison? Regardless of what laws may be in place, they paint you in a bad light to a jury, and you acting like dirty harry, and you could find yourself in deep trouble.

Self Defence is to save a life ONLY. PERIOD. Not an excuse to play tough guy. And I'm not trying to bust your balls here, you just need to scrutinize what you say and write carefully. The Prosecution undoubtedly will.....

David Armstrong
August 28, 2008, 06:26 PM
David, It is super smart to realize that once your perp has left he knows you own guns...
And all the evidence available tends to indicate burglars will try to avoid homes where they know somebody may be armed.
They are a high ticket black market item... I know a "clean" (not reported stolen) mossberg 500 can bring $500 and a hi-cap handgun can bring a grand if also not reported stolen. Now the perp tries to burglarize when you ain't home but your child may be.
If that really worries you, get a gun safe and teach your child how to shoot. Not sure why that would be a worry but having a gunbattle with the child in the house doesn't bother you.
I see every burglar as a potential murderer and will treat any inside my home as such....
Few burglars are murderers, and you may certainly choose however you wish to treat them inside your home. I would suggest that while perhaps it is psychologically rewarding to shoot them, in reality it is far more likely to result in only making the problem worse.

Glenn, He will be dead...
Many have made that same assumption, only to be proven wrong. It ain't Hollywood, the good guys don't always win.

Sigma 40 Blaster
August 28, 2008, 06:32 PM
Warnings should be short and sweet, stop, don't move, drop it, get down.

While you're in the middle of an adrenaline filled cursing frenzy your brain is seeking to finish the sentence, your reaction time to further aggression by the BG might be impeded just enough to hurt you because you're pre-occupied with your rambling string of profanities.

Also, you don't want to get a cornered animal any more afraid...same principle applies here. Once you have drawn a weapon and issued a command you have reversed roles, any further verbal aggression is senseless and serves no purpose.

PawDaddy
August 28, 2008, 07:47 PM
If the situation has escalated to you having to draw your gun there ain't going to be any time to talk.

Click (If Applicable) Boom!

hogdogs
August 28, 2008, 08:12 PM
Mr.Armstrong, The whole reason for me not giving warning is to avoid a "gun battle"... One person shooting an intruder is not a gun battle.

Derius, I have a high regard for human life! All respectful, law abiding humans will get the shirt off my back, first aid, help loading groceries etc.
But I refuse to allow anyone to attempt to victimize me or my family and will try my best to prevent the same for others. I give the life of a criminal the same respect they give me...
As for most burglars are not murderers... Correct but anyone who enters an occupied dwelling is a home invader not a simple burglar. Anyone who enters my home without permission is presumed to be heavily armed and extremely dangerous and I have not the time nor inclination to assess the situation to determine if threat is reduced.
Brent

fjk1911
August 28, 2008, 08:20 PM
+1 hogdog

HoraceHogsnort
August 28, 2008, 09:02 PM
Me too.

Derius_T
August 28, 2008, 10:30 PM
hogdogs, I'm not saying even for a second that a threat to you or your loved ones should be taken lightly. A home invader is most defiantly as real as it gets. Its make or break time then. I whole heartedly agree.

However, its your words, phrasing, and general attitude that I was concerned with. If you come across as overly aggressive or ready to kill to a guy like me, then how do you think you will come off to the police, or a jury? Call 911 with that attitude, and conduct the call in that manner? Really? Just sounds ignorant, and full of internet bravado. If you were to use those words, you can believe me that it would be used against you.

You just have to be careful how you present yourself, and what you choose to say when on a PUBLIC forum. Thats the whole point, not that you shouldn't protect you or yours with whatever tools are at your disposal. You just don't need to sound happy about it.....it can bite you.

Threefeathers
August 28, 2008, 10:35 PM
After much thought I've decided, "Hola Senor, Alto."

dabigguns357
August 28, 2008, 11:17 PM
Reminds me of a chow dog i had once,Dang dog never barked a day in her life but get to close and she would rip you to shreds.I was almost sued for an attack when a b/g tried to break in to my home,the dog got the worst out of the deal and had to be put down.Anyways the point i'm trying to make always be alert of your surroundings and never give up your best defence,your position.

A elderly woman once shot a man for breaking in,after it was over she calmly told the police that she didn't know him and they didn't have any thing to talk about.

Saab1911
August 29, 2008, 06:43 AM
On my business trip to Prague, Czech Republic, I was working late. When I
was ready to leave, I was the only one left in the office. The office door
had a goofy feature when activated prevents the door from being opened
from the inside or the outside.

:confused:

I accidentally engaged that feature, and after about fifteen minutes of
fumbling with the door, I decided to jump out the bathroom window. Unlucky
for me, the bathroom window opened out into a court-yard. So, basically
I was in people's backyards. And the thought did cross my mind that I may
get shot. Czech Repulic is after all home of CZ and also the home of the
best AK-47 ever made.

Luckily, I located a corridor that was not part of anyone's home and was
able to find my way to the street.

Weird things happen, and maybe somebody will wander into my house. I
won't bust a cap in his buttocks just for being inside my house. I'm going
to warn him first. Then, once his intentions are clear, I'll either shoot him or
tell him where the door is.

Cheers,

Jae

Double Naught Spy
August 29, 2008, 07:06 AM
Finding a burglar in your living room with arms full of your DVD or china?

Is that a life and death shoot'em? One should consider that. You do have some time. While some folks will say "Castle" and blast him - think that is an always and useful response?

What's a true life and death situation? Is the world black and white?

If there is one perp in your home, there are likely two perps. Do you really want to engage in a nice exchange of words while his buddy flanks you?

It has been my experience that intruders in the home are not there for the benefit of my family or me.

Brian Pfleuger
August 29, 2008, 07:59 AM
while his buddy flanks you?


To each his own. I can not be "flanked" in the lay out of my home.


I will NOT kill over property.

Keltyke
August 29, 2008, 08:06 AM
The main point for any of us should be to not have to take a life, or to see other lives being taken. Unfortunately, the actions of the BG may prevent this.

There are four situations when I would shoot without warning:
1. If the BG has a weapon pointed at me.
2. If the BG has a weapon pointed at my family.
3. If the BG is already shooting.
4. If he's in my house and advancing.

Any other scene demands (for me) that I give warning - ONE warning only!

"Freeze!"
"Stop or I'll shoot."

If he does anything else than freeze or stop, I pull the trigger and fire until the threat is negated. Even if he's armed, I got him in my sights and I can get one off if he even twitches that hand with the weapon in it.

I'm not eager to take a life, but nor am I eager to avoid it. I'll do what the scene demands at the time. Each situation is different.

Keltyke
August 29, 2008, 08:14 AM
I will NOT kill over property.

Admirable! No one wants to take a life over a toaster.

Fortunately, if someone is in your house, most courts will let you assume they are there to harm you, not just to steal from you. If someone is in your house to steal and meets resistance, they're apt to react violently to either steal or get away. You can't assume they're trying to get away in that case.

However, I once had a short conversation with a BG at gunpoint from 5 feet - cocked and aimed right between his eyes:
"You wouldn't shoot me over $10, would you?"
"I'd shoot you over ten cents." Drop the bill."

In that case, a little intimidation and posturing convinced him he was close to seeing another world, and actually avoided a shooting.

fjk1911
August 29, 2008, 08:34 AM
Since I will guess that the perp did not ring the doorbell to be invited into your home to steal your toaster and thereby did not "warn" me or my family of his intentions, I am with Keltyke and don't plan to "warn" him of mine under Kelt's exact conditions.

+1

As Mike Tyson said "I throw every punch with bad intentions." I think, just my opinion, that a BG meeting those conditions above has bad intentions towards me too.

Big Yac
August 29, 2008, 08:44 AM
You know, most of you people scare me to death. I see a whole lot of chairborne commandos on here anymore. You all assume that you're Rambo and will never be overpowered, outsmarted, out drawn or out shot. What is the old saying about expect the unexpected. Remember alot of the people breaking into homes are professional criminals, they too know how to use a gun and really dont have anything to lose in killing the know it all, two to the chest home owner who thinks the sound of a shotgun being racked will send all but the bravest man running for their lives. You people who would shoot someone over a toaster, I sure hope the old lady next door never comes knocking to borrow a cup of sugar or she may end up with a red dot on her forehead. I'm glad I dont live in the war zones...or dreamlands that you folks do. I get tired too of hearing about the super breeds of dogs you guys own too, yes a mean dog is quite a detterent but dogs arent bullet proof or cant survive a poisoned steak "treat" from an intuder. Really people, this is the kind of attitude the anti gun people see. If you CCW dont flaunt it, even on an internet forum. That CC piece is for your protection, you're not automatically deputized because of it. Remember too that once you pull the trigger you cant being that bullet back. The guy stealing your tv with the intent to sell it to help feed a starving family ( yes there are people who steal for their families) wont be coming back. Seriously everyone, leave the Rambo attitudes to Hollywood and think for once before you go off and say or do something that will affect you for the rest of your life.

hogdogs
August 29, 2008, 09:18 AM
I would never even think of "killing a man over a toaster" Heck I wouldn't think of it for any inanimate object! I will however kill him OVER A HOME INVASION!
As for being outsmarted... That is one reason to not engage in idle chit chat.
As for being a chest beating rambo ninja blood thirsty heartless bastard... I am just an average size guy of full middle age with physical limitations. I have to put the leverage firmly in my court instantly or risk being victimized by a HOME INVADER.
As for a 2 to the chest comment... I prefer one to the chest followed up with a few more for good measure. Gotta save a few in case his buddy wants to play ball too.
If it is a dog eat dog world, I won't be like one of our fellow TFL members... wearing the milkbone underwear.
It is high time the thugs of society realize that crime is a risky profession and many highly respectful type folks refuse to allow themselves to be victimized.
Brent

Glenn E. Meyer
August 29, 2008, 09:47 AM
Glenn, He will be dead...

Guess I wasted my time listening to lectures on gun shot wounds and survivability. I will opine that if forensics show that you fired a killing wound on a person on the ground - the Castle doctrine may not save your butt. It will be an interesting test case.

So who proposes the finishing shot?

As far as being flanked - that presupposes you are exploring the house to engage the bad guy. Unless you have to save the kids, clearing for 'the china' - ain't my plan. From a good cover position, you shouldn't get flanked.

There is a lot of posturing for emotional response to territorial violation and a need to punish the BG as compared to planning for an optimal outcome for you.

hogdogs
August 29, 2008, 10:05 AM
I have never studied ballistic survivability. I have shot a few animals at close range with shotguns and upon butchering I was witness to the devastation internally to both the organs contacted by the lead and other wise untouched organs as well. If the wounded home invader attempts to get up he is still a threat. I am not fearless...
As for going out lookin' for the fight... I seem to have always lived in split plan homes. If the bad guy ain't in my sight he may be headed for my son or daughters bed room.
Brent

Glenn E. Meyer
August 29, 2008, 11:21 AM
There's no guarantee - my point - that the intruder will be dead. So stating 'he will be dead' contributes nothing to the real discussion of options. It is posturing.

Eghad
August 29, 2008, 12:04 PM
My CHL instructor was asked the same question.

Answer: STOP or HALT! and if they they are a stranger and dont stop, if you have your firearm out you must be in fear for your life so the next step is to shoot.

This is taking into consideration that you are in circumstances like your house at night or in a situation where it is legal to use deadly force to protect yourself.

gvf
August 29, 2008, 12:24 PM
I think warnings are legally optional in New York, my state - it's not mentioned in law that I know of.

I can see it in some circumstances as giving someone a last chance not to get shot, and in others giving someone a last chance to shoot you first knowing now you have a weapon. Soooooooo, I have no plans to give a warning if a god-awful event should happen, I might but I don't add it in as planning. One more thing to add in your thinking, makes one more thing to possibly screw you up at point-of-crisis.

I keep it simple: #1: you are in a situation you feel with reason you will be killed NOW #2 draw, point, shoot, #3 quick prayer for him and you, call 911 and a lawyer.

David Armstrong
August 29, 2008, 12:38 PM
Mr.Armstrong, The whole reason for me not giving warning is to avoid a "gun battle"... One person shooting an intruder is not a gun battle.
Assuming that (1) the other guy is not armed; and (2) that you are so good that you will always stop him with your first shot; and (3) that the BG is by himself are fairly questionable assumptions. Thus, a gunbattle.
As for most burglars are not murderers... Correct but anyone who enters an occupied dwelling is a home invader not a simple burglar.
Actually most home burglaries are just that, simple home burglaries. The BGs aren't there to physically harm anyone.
Anyone who enters my home without permission is presumed to be heavily armed and extremely dangerous...
If that is your assumption, why start a gunfight with them, endangering everyone in the house, when it is not necessary?

hogdogs
August 29, 2008, 01:02 PM
Actually most home burglaries are just that, simple home burglaries. The BGs aren't there to physically harm anyone.

If no one is home you may have a bit of a point... If anyone is home it is by definition an invasion of my home.

If that is your assumption, why start a gunfight with them, endangering everyone in the house, when it is not necessary?

Did you read my presumption? I said "presumed to be heavily armed and extremely dangerous."

So I should see that as not necessary? If I could presume the person was unarmed and harmless than it would not be necessary to engage.

Another poster stated that some thieves are only trying to feed a starving family... First I say that is BS!!! If he has the ability to go through the thinking involved to pull off a heist he is smart enough to work. If he is physically able to tote my things off he can bag my groceries at the piggly wiggly! I would not shoot just to save my belongings but I assure you that the items I own are MINE! I have not the available funds nor even credit cards to replace them.
But that is beside the point... The point is these four walls constitute my castle, as paltry as they may be, Everyone within is a cherished life I have chosen to love and live with. It is a heavy responsibility but one I gleefully accept.
I think I have run myself all out of additional things to say on this subject.
Brent

Keltyke
August 29, 2008, 05:30 PM
Actually most home burglaries are just that, simple home burglaries. The BGs aren't there to physically harm anyone.

Right. There's a BIG difference in burglary and home invasion, both in the field and in the court.

Upon discovering the house is occupied, your average burglar will simply turn and leave.

Yes, making the wrong distinction between the two may have fatal results. But people, let's be reasonable and responsible.

Brian Pfleuger
August 29, 2008, 05:32 PM
Fortunately, if someone is in your house, most courts will let you assume they are there to harm you, not just to steal from you.

Most yes, the ones in NY, No.


I think warnings are legally optional in New York, my state - it's not mentioned in law that I know of.

My state too and you are correct warnings are optional in NY but the legal situations for shooting are VERY narrow, essentially leaving little choice than to give a warning unless the threat is EXTREMELY severe. NY is essentially a "reasonable belief of imminent death/substantial bodily harm state and it is clear that a simple breaking and entering will not qualify in the eyes of the court.


For what it's worth, here's my take on the situation (BG with an arm load of stuff). I'm going to tell him in no uncertain terms to stop (exact verbiage optional), with my gun pointed at him (finger off the trigger). If he stops, freezes, drops the stuff, runs out the door, jumps out the window then we go to the next step of either his surrender and/or 911. If he makes an aggressive move, runs toward me, drops things and reaches in a pocket or points something at me- I shoot. At that point the BG has escalated the confrontation to a physical one, not me.
As for the argument of "Now he knows you've got guns/valuables/whatever." Well, I guess he does and he MIGHT come back, which would suck, but to shoot someone over what MIGHT happen is over the horizon on my moral compass. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't. I'm saying I won't.

David Armstrong
August 29, 2008, 05:42 PM
I have never studied ballistic survivability.
Then maybe you should pay attention to those that have.
If no one is home you may have a bit of a point... If anyone is home it is by definition an invasion of my home.
An invasion of your home is not a home invasion. They are two different concepts. And an invasion of your home, at least as presented here, is most likely a simple burglary. Sorry, but that's just the way things are.
Did you read my presumption? I said "presumed to be heavily armed and extremely dangerous."
Of course I read it. That is why I said "If that is your assumption, why start a gunfight with them, endangering everyone in the house, when it is not necessary?"
So I should see that as not necessary?
I tend to view starting a gunfight as a last resort rather than a first option, especially if I am working from the assumption that my opponent(s) will be heavily armed and extremely dangerous. I want to give them the incentive to go bother somebody else instead of encouraging them to start swapping lead with me while my family is downrange.

Nnobby45
August 29, 2008, 06:09 PM
Well, look. After numerous pages of continuing with this thread, maybe an observation would be in order.

1. There are reasons for not firing warning shots in civilian SD situations. They've been stated numerous times and are valid.

2. It' would be shear negligence not to have rules of engagement in military or private security guard duty situations (including warning shots) for obvious reasons.

Replying to point #2 (the subject of the thread) with an argument pertinent to point #1, which isn't relevent to the main point, is a little silly, isn't it?:cool:

Just my thoughts (observation) on the matter.

Brian Pfleuger
August 29, 2008, 06:30 PM
1. There are reasons for not firing warning shots in civilian SD situations. They've been stated numerous times and are valid.

My observation is that this is not the thread about warning shots.;):D

Recon7
August 29, 2008, 06:36 PM
I think it's about language, although I can't remember which one. French? Spanish? :confused:

The second page looks like a "should I shoot a burglar in the dark without warning" thread.

Brian Pfleuger
August 29, 2008, 06:46 PM
Pare o dispararé

l'arrêt ou moi tirera

Anschlag oder ich schießen

l'arresto o io sparer

سيقذف موقف أو أنا

PawDaddy
August 29, 2008, 06:51 PM
I have never been in any kind of confrontation. I am sure that the majority here hasn't. But, someone coming into your house is not going to be a ball game where you can call time out to evaluate the situation.

I personally do not think that there will be enough time to really be 100% sure of anything other than someone is in your house that shouldn't be. You cannot read a person's mind and if he/she has broken into your house they have already made it a confrontation.

If I was hungry, I would not steal. Not even for my family. Stealing is wrong and being hungry does not make it right. There are many churches and gov. programs out there to help those who are in need. They just have to ask in most cases.

A person breaking into a home is already desperate and probably doesn't care about the outcome. Sure, they may just be trying to get something to sell to feed their family. But, there is NO WAY to know that. Is your life or your family's lives worth taking a change that the person who is in your house is only after your TV?

Not mine. Take them out if you can and save someone else the turmoil and terror of having their home invaded. And, save the taxpayers from having to house and feed this person.

Brian Pfleuger
August 29, 2008, 07:18 PM
Not mine. Take them out if you can and save someone else the turmoil and terror of having their home invaded. And, save the taxpayers from having to house and feed this person.


Human life, even that of some one gone bad is worth more than my stuff, worth even more than the turmoil of "home invasions" (which is different, legally, that what we are discussing), worth more, clearly, than the "taxpayer money" (that's why we have prisons). No one deserves to die because they are a thief, regardless of the reason. After all, most of us are thieves to one degree or another. Ever taken a pen from work, or wasted your companies time on a gun forum? Yes, I know "that's different". It's different because you didn't go somewhere you weren't invited or scare somebody in the process. So where do we draw the line.

Ask yourself a simple question:
Should thievery be a capitol offense?
Should thievery be a capitol offense if it involves breaking and entering?
What if somebody's a thief because they simply want to be?
What if it's to feed their family (how do YOU tell the difference)?

JollyRoger
August 29, 2008, 08:32 PM
keep it short, well heard and to the point.


+1 BikerRN

As a LEO myself, I think one aspect of a citizen's arrest-type situation is being overlooked: The longer you have the bad guy around, the more likely he is to try to jump you. Doing a solo arrest, with no cuffs and no experience is pretty dicey. A better approach might be "get out of my house or I'll shoot you" or if approached elsewhere "get away from me or I'll shoot you." Confronted with the opportunity to leave or get shot, most bad guys will take the opportunity to leave. They can always go rob someone else.

Survival should be the first objective of the armed citizen. Whether the bad guy gets caught is secondary. Be a good witness, file a police report.

dabigguns357
August 29, 2008, 08:38 PM
Look it's simple,if a b/g breaks in to your house while you are there then it's not a simple robbery,he or they are there to do you harm.Most people that want to steal make sure you aren't home all others should and will pay the price.Toasters and tv's aren't worth shooting someone over but when they purposely break in to my house in the middle of the night, we have a big problem.I'm no commando or rambo,but make no mistake i will shoot anyone that comes between my children and me.It's not that i don't care about others problems but hey don't come stealing from me to support your family or habit,GET A JOB or worse go on welfare and spare me the woe is me speech.No one should have to live in fear or hide in a closet.

Sorry for getting of the thread,but here is my theory on the matter of being quiet,isn't the b/g trying to be as quiet as he can then return the favor and be as quiet as you can,then he can be carried out quietly,so you can go quietly back to sleep

Saab1911
August 29, 2008, 08:46 PM
Look it's simple,if a b/g breaks in to your house while you are there then it's not a simple robbery,he or they are there to do you harm.Most people that want to steal make sure you aren't home all others should and will pay the price.Toasters and tv's aren't worth shooting someone over but when they purposely break in to my house in the middle of the night, we have a big problem.I'm no commando or rambo,but make no mistake i will shoot anyone that comes between my children and me.It's not that i don't care about others problems but hey don't come stealing from me to support your family or habit,GET A JOB or worse go on welfare and spare me the woe is me speech.No one should have to live in fear or hide in a closet.


What if the perp monitored your neighborhood for a while and noted your
routine. And what if you changed your routine on the same day that the
perp decided to rob you? He and you are in close vicinity of each other
on your own property not through his choice, and he had no intention to
do you or your family bodily harm.

In my opinion, the best course is to try to scare the #2 out of him and have
him leave. And I change my mind about citizen's arrest. Too many things
can go wrong. I'm not trained to secure a perp. The options are to try
to persuade the perp to leave or to shoot him.

Brian Pfleuger
August 29, 2008, 08:51 PM
The options are to try to persuade the perp to leave or to shoot him.

I agree. "Drop that stuff! Get out or I will shoot you!"

dabigguns357
August 29, 2008, 09:04 PM
We can what if all day long,but it's still going to be the same outcome,you and he stand in front of each other to what read each others mind,i don't think so.I am going to assume he is armed and dangerous and will treat him as such or he is on the floor by his choosing or mine it's up to him.Oh and i'll make sure to do everything quietly too.

guntotin_fool
August 29, 2008, 09:14 PM
three times I have used the words..... "Leave or Die" so far they have all made the right choice.

The other time I have put the red dot on the lead guys chest and that has worked.


I am a firm believer that you DO NOT have to shoot if you pull the gun, and sometimes that pulling the gun at the make or break moment will stop you from being backed in to the position of having to pull the trigger.

I am a property manager part time. I collect rent and on occasion monitor the evictions of people, some people think its ok to sign a lease and then never pay rent. Others, seem to think that robbing me is not stealing because "insurance" will cover it. ( it won't) Since the last time of putting the red dot on the one guy, it seems I have earned a little slack, but what always lurks in my mind is that one day they will just shoot before I know they are there. I wear a vest on the days I collect, but I still am trying to sell the buildings so I can vacate my promise to my friend.

Nnobby45
August 29, 2008, 10:50 PM
My observation is that this is not the thread about warning shots.


Here, read this part of my post again.

Replying to point #2 (the subject of the thread) with an argument pertinent to point #1, which isn't relevent to the main point, is a little silly, isn't it?


Translation:

75% of the posters on this thread have ignored the original subject and expressed opinions on legal or tactical considerations re: civilian SD warning shots in our country.

The subject of the thread is about foreign country security or guard duty with re: to lethal force policy and warning shot requirements---- WHICH IS NOT RELEVENT TO WARNING SHOTS AS A SD STRATEGY HERE IN THE US.:cool:

BillCA
August 29, 2008, 11:41 PM
My take on this is as follows;

A: Someone smashes in my door and I'm home, I'm presuming his intentions are as violent as his entry. It's likely I'll have to call for the coroner and buy a new mop.

B: If someone enters my house quietly and I'm checking out a strange noise... well the house isn't very large and he'll be within 20 ft of me and probably less than 12 ft. At close quarters like that, I may have to call for the coroner and buy a new mop.

C: If I'm in the bedroom and hear the movements of an intruder in the other rooms, I'll secure the short (12-ft) hallway at gunpoint while dialing 911. He gets the chance to leave before the PD arrives. If he comes down the hallway, isn't dressed like a firefighter and is not a uniformed officer we get to see how effective 20-ga #3 buckshot can be. I'll almost certainly need to call for the coroner and buy a new mop.

In my townhome, there simply isn't enough room to safely contain someone at gunpoint (proned out and covered from a distance). If he hears me or I call out to him to leave and he fails to do it, then it's his decision to force and engagement, not mine.


What if the perp monitored ...

"What if's" don't matter. I don't care why he's there or what he's done before. If he's creeping thru my house in the wee hours, he's up to no good. If he can't follow simple instructions (Don't Move! Hands on your head! Kneel straight down!) why he is there is irrelevant.

David Armstrong
August 30, 2008, 10:51 AM
Look it's simple,if a b/g breaks in to your house while you are there then it's not a simple robbery,he or they are there to do you harm.
But usually they are not there to do you PHYSICAL harm. They are there to steal your stuff. If they are there to harm you, that is almost always going to be the first thing they do, not later on during the event.
Sorry for getting of the thread,but here is my theory on the matter of being quiet,isn't the b/g trying to be as quiet as he can then return the favor and be as quiet as you can,then he can be carried out quietly,so you can go quietly back to sleep
Nice thought, but that is not the way it works out.

David Armstrong
August 30, 2008, 10:56 AM
you and he stand in front of each other to what read each others mind
Probably not such a good idea. Don't stand around in front of him, don't try to read minds. Get behind cover/concealement, tell him to go away.
I am going to assume he is armed and dangerous and will treat him as such
As I've asked before, if that is your assumption why would you want to start a gunfight with your family down range? To assume that everything is going to go right is questionable at best.

David Armstrong
August 30, 2008, 10:58 AM
75% of the posters on this thread have ignored the original subject and expressed opinions on legal or tactical considerations re: civilian SD warning shots in our country.

The subject of the thread is about foreign country security or guard duty with re: to lethal force policy and warning shot requirements---- WHICH IS NOT RELEVENT TO WARNING SHOTS AS A SD STRATEGY HERE IN THE US.
Wrong thread. You want the warning shots thread, not the bad language theread.

tplumeri
August 30, 2008, 11:06 AM
I usually start with
"hi sailor, new in town" (in a lispy voice)
that usually confuses them long enough for me to draw my weapon and shout (in my classic NY accent)
"freeze moxxxx fuxxxx or ill blow your Fuxxxxx head off!"
Its all in the tone of voice.:)

you can use the NY style warning for multiple situations
ex
"back off MF'er or i'll rip your F'ing head off"
some folks like to add "and shxx down your neck" but i think thats a little over the top.;)

i offer online classes for anyone who wants to learn the NY style of threats:D

Sparky33
August 30, 2008, 12:12 PM
You never cease to provide me with a chuckle while I'm worrking. Do me a favor and tone it down or I'll laugh loud enough to attract attention of The Man. :D

tplumeri
August 30, 2008, 12:47 PM
You never cease to provide me with a chuckle

well, i'm happy about that.
but i wasn't trying to be funny.:)

while I'm worrking

geez, hope you're not a brain surgeon!:D

tom

Sparky33
August 30, 2008, 01:05 PM
Nope, Truck Driver.:D

No, I work in a copy shop, so I have a fair bit of down time

dabigguns357
August 30, 2008, 02:04 PM
Sorry David you missed my thread,i was being a smart butt.In my post i was trying to say you shouldn't have to give a warning,because when he broke in he didn't give a warning,and i'm not going to stand there and give the bad guy a cold beer.As far as i'm concerned he is armed and dangerous and thats all there is to it.As far as shooting If it's the middle of the day then i know my family is not there(good)if it's the middle of the night then i still know where my family is.I can monitor everything from my bedroom either by tv or by baby monitores in my kids room upstairs.Oh and i stand behind my decision to shoot if someone breaks in to my house in the middle of the night,they are not there for just my toaster and i sure aint goin to ask,again i'm not a command or rambo but hey they gave me no choice when they broke in.

emcs.security
August 30, 2008, 04:01 PM
I would Say " STOP " that's all , as others have stated any other words or phrases may come back to bite you in the rear.. See " Talking to the Police "
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8167533318153586646&hl=en

Some others have said I would not want to shot or harm in any way [ para phasing ] taking my stuff.. How would you react to this hypothetically scenario?
I walk up to your front Door broad daylight and ask you for your Gun collection , chances are you will say something to the effect of No ; most likely in a more colorfully language. I then just walk by you in to your home using no force and start to pick up your guns in a non threating manner , what will you do after all it is JUST property ?

Brian Pfleuger
August 30, 2008, 04:36 PM
I walk up to your front Door broad daylight and ask you for your Gun collection , chances are you will say something to the effect of No ; most likely in a more colorfully language. I then just walk by you in to your home using no force and start to pick up your guns in a non threating manner , what will you do after all it is JUST property ?

First off, you'd have to be HeMan because you'd be carrying a 300lb safe. Second, I'd call 911, that's why we have it. Third, I'd fight you if I thought I could and you didn't have a weapon. Fourth, I'd take pictures if I could, seriously, if your that casual about it, why can't I be? NOTE HOWEVER: you make one move to load a gun or get violent in ANY way that I consider life threatening and your getting shot.
Property isn't worth killing or dying for, my life and the lives of my family are worth dying for.

emcs.security
August 30, 2008, 05:00 PM
1. Being this was a hypothetically scenario [just using guns as a example ] I can hypothetically carry a 300 lb safe !!
2. "Second, I'd call 911" that gives me time for a drink of some type and maybe a sandwich!!
3. "Third, I'd fight you if I thought I could " I'll sue you for Assault and Bodily Harm { my word against yours that you invited me into your home}!!
$. "Fourth, I'd take pictures if I could, seriously," What are your pictures going to prove , that I help you move your safe some place[[ see #1 ]]!! ( I may break you camera with my appearance )!!

Brian Pfleuger
August 30, 2008, 05:21 PM
1. Being this was a hypothetically scenario...


....you are free to change it into anything you'd like that I can not win.

I will not kill for property. <<Period. End of Possibilities.>>

If you walk out with my things. I have insurance.
If you sue me. I have insurance.
Police response time in my area is within 5 minutes for something like a burglary in progress. I'll have your image (video from security and hand held camera), I'll have a plate number, car description, I might even follow you.

The sanctity of human life is not a value open to hypothetical what if statements. If you attempt to harm me or mine to degree that threatens our lives I WILL make you stop. Whether that means to the point of your death depends on your reaction to my attempts to make you stop. At that point it's your decision not mine.

emcs.security
August 30, 2008, 05:42 PM
I'll have your image (video from security and hand held camera), I'll have a plate number, car description, I might even follow you.
Thats a good plan !
(video from security and hand held camera) been covered !!
" I'll have a plate number, car description" stolen car!!
"I might even follow you" You Should have added while on the phone with 911.. This one may be a little harder to over come without some fancy driving and some luck on my part!!

Brian Pfleuger
August 30, 2008, 05:47 PM
Good luck with my stuff. You're alive to enjoy it. I'm done here.

Nnobby45
August 30, 2008, 07:05 PM
75% of the posters on this thread have ignored the original subject and expressed opinions on legal or tactical considerations re: civilian SD warning shots in our country.

The subject of the thread is about foreign country security or guard duty with re: to lethal force policy and warning shot requirements---- WHICH IS NOT RELEVENT TO WARNING SHOTS AS A SD STRATEGY HERE IN THE US.

Wrong thread. You want the warning shots thread, not the bad language theread.

Holy crap, you're right David! Thanks for catching that. :o Glad you have the embarrassment icon (even has the spelling).:D

I'm going to bend over and kick myself in the butt.

To get back on track.

Sometimes witnesses are people who are out of sight and can't see what's happening. I'd rather they heard me yelling at Bubba to "don't move", "drop your weapon", "stay away from me", etc. than to hear me swearing at him just before they hear the shots.

emcs.security
August 30, 2008, 07:32 PM
I apologize for my part in hijacking the thread :o

PawDaddy
August 31, 2008, 12:58 PM
Human life, even that of some one gone bad is worth more than my stuff, worth even more than the turmoil of "home invasions" (which is different, legally, that what we are discussing), worth more, clearly, than the "taxpayer money" (that's why we have prisons). No one deserves to die because they are a thief, regardless of the reason. After all, most of us are thieves to one degree or another. Ever taken a pen from work, or wasted your companies time on a gun forum? Yes, I know "that's different". It's different because you didn't go somewhere you weren't invited or scare somebody in the process. So where do we draw the line.

I was not talking about "STUFF". I am talking about your life or your family's lives. Is an intruder's life worth more than yours?

I do cherish life. I KNOW that Jesus Christ died for EVERY soul that has ever lived and will ever live on this earth. So, every soul is precious to God. He gave His Son for us all.

But, God also gave us the freedom of choice. He will not make us do what's right. He commands us to, but it's up to us if we do or not.

We all make decisions. And, there are always consequenses to our decisions. Whether good or bad.

You do not know the intent of someone that has invaded your home.

Is your life or your family's lives worth taking a chance to find out?

One thing for sure. If you take a criminal out, he will not do it again. And, maybe he will be an example to others who might be in the same line of "work"!

tplumeri
August 31, 2008, 07:13 PM
So, I can easily imagine that if I have to tell a perp that he's about to get
shot or if I'm telling an intruder to freeze, get on the ground,
put hands behind his head and don't move, I would interlace a lot of
expletives in between the words that convey actual instructions.


yep , lots of "expletives" (cussing) is the way to go. (see my prior post for examples of the "NY style")

but, look how far off topic this post has gotten!
gotta love it!:)
tom

Nnobby45
August 31, 2008, 07:34 PM
[QUOTE]Human life, even that of some one gone bad is worth more than my stuff, worth even more than the turmoil of "home invasions" (which is different, legally, that what we are discussing), worth more, clearly, than the "taxpayer money" (that's why we have prisons). No one deserves to die because they are a thief, regardless of the reason. After all, most of us are thieves to one degree or another. Ever taken a pen from work, or wasted your companies time on a gun forum? Yes, I know "that's different". It's different because you didn't go somewhere you weren't invited or scare somebody in the process. So where do we draw the line.

I think you've missed the point, Peezakilla. If someone invaded your home, you'd be afraid for your familys' lives. Not whether your TV and DVD player were at risk.

An old WWII veteran once said, during a tv interview, that he didn't fight his way through France and witness the death of many a friend so his government could mandate that he submitt to robbery because it considered a criminals rights more important than his.

In other words, Peezaakilla, it's a civil liberties issue, not a property vs. human life issue. My civil liberties were paid for in blood and so were yours. Such a requirement, IMO, amounts to tyranny and oppression, and spits on the graves of those who shed their blood for our freedom.

Should burglary be a capital offense? No. And it's not.

Peezakilla, I'd really like to think you aren't suggesting that a Homeowner who takes a burglar's life out of fear of his own isn't a sentence imposer, nor a self appointed judge and jury. Tell me you aren't.

Brian Pfleuger
August 31, 2008, 08:56 PM
NOTE HOWEVER: you make one move to load a gun or get violent in ANY way that I consider life threatening and your getting shot.
Property isn't worth killing or dying for, my life and the lives of my family are worth dying for.

If he makes an aggressive move, runs toward me, drops things and reaches in a pocket or points something at me- I shoot. At that point the BG has escalated the confrontation to a physical one, not me.


If he drops everything and heads my way, now he probably gets shot- especially if he's got a weapon.

Three quotes from my previous posts in this thread. I don't think I'm being ambiguous.

The Canuck
August 31, 2008, 10:46 PM
Get off the "X", present and yell STOP!!! if they don't comply, stop them.

Nnobby45
September 1, 2008, 01:54 AM
Three quotes from my previous posts in this thread. I don't think I'm being ambiguous.


Doesn't sound like you and I are that far apart on the issue. Neither of us wants to take a human life. And neither of us would just over property.

My point is that an intruder in my home has gone far beyond just being a threat to my property.

And there's still the civil liberties issue that only an oppressive government would violate by considering a criminal's rights more important than my own which, as already stated, have been paid for and, last I checked, still being paid for in places like Afghanistan and Iraq.

David Armstrong
September 1, 2008, 04:15 PM
In my post i was trying to say you shouldn't have to give a warning,because when he broke in he didn't give a warning,and i'm not going to stand there and give the bad guy a cold beer.
Again, while a cold beer might be nice, it has much more limited an application to the issue being discussed. And nobody has said you have to give a warning, only that it is a good idea to do so under certain circumstances.
As far as i'm concerned he is armed and dangerous and thats all there is to it.
If you think he is armed and dangerous, why start a gunfight if yo don't have to?
As far as shooting If it's the middle of the day then i know my family is not there(good)if it's the middle of the night then i still know where my family is.
But you don't know where all the bullets are going.
Oh and i stand behind my decision to shoot if someone breaks in to my house in the middle of the night,they are not there for just my toaster and i sure aint goin to ask,
No matter how many times you say it it doesn't change the facts. Most breaks ins are just that, break ins, and the perp has no desire to physically harm anyone.
hey they gave me no choice when they broke in.
Then you are choosing to let the criminal decide what you will do. I prefer to make my decisions based on what I want to do. There is always a choice.

David Armstrong
September 1, 2008, 04:22 PM
You do not know the intent of someone that has invaded your home.
Is your life or your family's lives worth taking a chance to find out?
You are taking the chance either way. You can start with an assumption that this is a normal and typical B&E, where the perp is after property, or you can develop some other idea. But working toward the greatest likelihood is a pretty smart path. As for the lives, why do you think that starting a gunfight will be safer than giving the BG a chance to leave without a fight? It's amazing the number of people here that think just because they are the goodguy that they will always win, and there won't be any ramifications. If he doesn't leave, you can go to guns, but to start with that option closes down any other alternative.

dabigguns357
September 1, 2008, 10:05 PM
We all have to make a personal choice in how we react to this situation.I am sorry but i will not stand by idle while someone ransacks my home in the middle of the night or day.Warning or no warning i'll not clammer in the corner and hope for the best.

If what you say is true David then we should all give up our guns and flashlights,or better yet why even have locks on our doors or window shades.Its called privacy and i for one love mine.Enough of the poor pitiful thief speech.If will make you happy then i'll warn em when i cock the hammer back on my 357.

Sorry but in the last 8 month i've had both my cars broken into 4 times,and my house was broken into as well.In all this i've had to replace my rag top,and cd player in my jeep along with a complete passanger side window motor kit for my other car.In my house i've had to replace window screens and a back room window, and 2 door locks.I have lost my sympothy for the criminal element and no they don't deserve any kind WARNING.Oh let me go on the record and say yes i'm moving just as soon as my transfer comes through.

David Armstrong
September 2, 2008, 01:03 PM
I am sorry but i will not stand by idle while someone ransacks my home in the middle of the night or day.
Good. Of course, nobody has suggested that you do that. But there are a lot of options between "shoot him right there" and "stand by idle."
Warning or no warning i'll not clammer in the corner and hope for the best.
Again, I see no place where such an idea has even been suggested.
If what you say is true David then we should all give up our guns and flashlights,or better yet why even have locks on our doors or window shades.Its called privacy and i for one love mine.
You're being silly. Privacy is nice and is well-deserved. But deciding that the best way to preserve that privacy is to kill someone is a bit over the top, IMO. The guns and flashlights certainly have a place. So does the concept of a warning.
Enough of the poor pitiful thief speech.
Again you argue a point that has not been made, at least by me. I feel no sympathy for the thief. I do feel sympathy for the good citizen. What seems to be getting lost is that frequently the best thing for that good citizen is to minimize loss of resources. Getting into a gunfight does not meet that goal. You can always escalate if the warninig is not sufficient. However, if you start by shooting, it is awfully hard to go back.

Brian Pfleuger
September 2, 2008, 01:05 PM
What seems to be getting lost is that frequently the best thing for that good citizen is to minimize loss of resources. Getting into a gunfight does not meet that goal. You can always escalate if the warninig is not sufficient. However, if you start by shooting, it is awfully hard to go back.

Bingo! +1

dabigguns357
September 2, 2008, 03:31 PM
It seems to me that we are about to wade in water we don't want to swim in.Lets just agree to disagree,shake hands and find a more intresting thread to post about like hunting or fishing.:D

David Armstrong
September 2, 2008, 08:16 PM
It seems to me that we are about to wade in water we don't want to swim in.
I don't mind swimming when I think it necessary, and people advocating killing other people when there is no need is always worth a swim, IMO.

TATER
September 3, 2008, 10:40 AM
David, honestly, Your facts fly in the face of what has become the trend. Could your facts be some what dated??

Saab1911
September 3, 2008, 10:43 AM
Have your way with the thread. I don't care.

The original question has long been answered.

Capt Charlie
September 3, 2008, 11:51 AM
The original question has long been answered.

Yep, and that's more than enough reason to put this one to bed. Say goodnight, Gracie.

Closed.