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HiBC
August 23, 2008, 07:09 PM
The idea of a self defense handgun for women gets discussed a lot.In the case of a firearm that will be carried on the person,that is NOT what this thread is about.I am talking about the "home alone nightstand gun"
I will first suggest,it is practical to have some early warning alert to wake the sleeping person.It may be Jeff Coopers iron gate across the bedroom hall,it may be a motion detector light with an alarm wired in,or,a reliable dog or ??
A sleeping woman who has a 200 lb fellow jump on top of her is in trouble regardless of what gun is nearby.
I suggest,with this wake up call,a 20 gauge shotgun,or a reliable M-1 carbine,a trapper .357 lever gun,an M-4 5.56 or even a Ruger 10-22 might be better protection than many of the handguns that might be chosen as a small.low recoil piece for her.
Hopefully,it would be a fun plinking gun she would enjoy and be very familiar with.Or a claybird buster.
The M-1 carbine was in place originally for non-combatants who didn't have time to be trained and proficient with a 1911.
I'm not pushing the M-1 as the best,just using the concept for discussion.

Edward429451
August 23, 2008, 07:26 PM
I heard that the M1 was for the guys who couldn't qualify with the pistol (or otherwise didn't want one). I do not know the accuracy of that but it sorta makes sense and would be a good bedroom arm for a lady (or anyone)

Not sure how much help it'd be if the attacker was already in the room with her...

tshadow6
August 23, 2008, 09:09 PM
the M1 carbine was intended for support troops and officers. The fact that it is light, mild recoil, and holds 15-30 rounds made it popular with front line troopers. I would get one if I wasn't so cheap.

SDC
August 23, 2008, 09:12 PM
The M1 Carbine was the PDW of the time, and issued to people who didn't need a full-sized rifle, but still needed something better than a pistol "just in case". Power-wise, I'd put it around the same area as a .357 Magnum, and if you used soft-points, it would certainly be nothing to sneeze at.

pax
August 24, 2008, 12:09 AM
I submit to you that the best gun for home defense is one that

1) you can get to in a hurry
2) you can maneuver in tight quarters (NOT because you're going to "clear the house" but because you're going to race to the children's room with gun in hand, and may need to navigate hallways & corners), and
3) you are most familiar with and well-practiced with.

For me, that's a handgun. My carry handgun did not suddenly become useless simply because I am inside the walls of my home rather than outside them. I can store it most efficiently on my body at home when I am awake. When asleep, it is easy to keep in readiness near the bed, within an unlocked case behind my locked bedroom door (I lock it before opening the door, or simply take it with me -- no danger to the children while I sleep). And since I am not going to put in the time to become as proficient with a long gun as I have with a handgun, the handgun is a much more deadly weapon in my hands than a long gun would be.

Of course all of those are personal lifestyle issues, but it only underscores that there's really no one-size-fits-all answer to most defensive questions. Just what works or does not work for the individual in question.

pax

HiBC
August 24, 2008, 12:36 AM
Thanks,Pax !
You made sound points.
I recognize folks like Jeanne Assam and yourself are out there.Thank God for dangerous women! I do not intend to gender down anyone.
Some folks take the handgun very seriously and gender certainly is not a limitation.
I was thinking of some posts,and remembering my former spouse just didn't like her roundbutt S+Wmodel 10 with a nice action job.She was OK with a .22.
I bought her a 10-22 and she enjoyed plinking with it,and was skilled with it.
When she was alone,the mag was full of Yellowjackets.
So,the idea of what the military would hand an Army Nurse in Italy during WW2 wouldn't be 100% wrong.A weapon for the semi-skilled.It applies to a semi-skilled man,also.
And,I wasn't really thinking about gathering up kids,I was thinking alone in a bedroom.
I now have my eyes and ears open and mouth shut!Lets learn.

Nnobby45
August 24, 2008, 12:39 AM
I submit to you that the best gun for home defense is one that

1) you can get to in a hurry
2) you can maneuver in tight quarters (NOT because you're going to "clear the house" but because you're going to race to the children's room with gun in hand, and may need to navigate hallways & corners), and
3) you are most familiar with and well-practiced with.


I agree. Pistol with 870 back up for myself.

As for the purpose of the M1 Carbine, it was simply created so it could be issued to officers to give them better armament than if just armed with the .45

It soon found favor with other troops, as well. Paratroopers carried folding stock versions, and it really came into it's own in CQB, or house to house fighting.

Contrary to the movie "To Hell and Back" where Audie Murphy played himself and carried a Thompson, his favorite weapon was the M1 Carbine.

An M2 full auto version was developed with a rate of fire that was way fast. Maybe too fast.:cool:

Sixer
August 24, 2008, 02:07 AM
I took my girlfriend to the range a few weeks ago to try out my M1 Carbine. She is not a "gun person" AT ALL, but I thought that the M1 might be fun for her to shoot. It was kind of a spur of the moment outing (as you will notice from her range attire). Lets just say that she didnt exactly enjoy it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn0IwLyaSdE


P.S. If she finds out I posted this video on YouTube she will probably shoot ME :D

David Armstrong
August 24, 2008, 11:11 AM
I love the little M-1 Carbine, and these days it is my "in-house" rifle. Lots to be said for it. But like Pax said, the handgun has a lot to be said for it also. My Glock is what I keep handy by the bed, the carbine is where I can grab it if it appears needed.

Old Gaffer
August 24, 2008, 11:25 AM
I bought DW an M1 Carbine for our anniversary last year, and she LOVES it. There are few things she likes better than loading up the rifles for a day at the 100 yard outdoor range near us.

That said, it's the Colt Detective special she keeps loaded and within arm's reach when she's home alone. OK that, and two speedloaders ;)

I just bought her a Beretta 92FS that I suspect will take the Colt's place when she gets a little more proficient with it. I don't think the 9mm is a good a stopper as the .38 spcl, but 14+1 more than makes up for the five-shot Detective Special I think.

All the best,
Rob

KyJim
August 24, 2008, 11:35 AM
This is maybe only slightly relevant to the topic but is about the M-1 carbine.

My father was stationed in Okinawa in 1950 in a combat infantry regiment and was discharged into the Ready Reserve a couple of months before the Korean War broke out. He had declined to re-enlist. He was called back into active duty and assigned to a transport company and issued an M-1 carbine. It was intended for support troops, like his transport company. It was more powerful and accurate than a .45 but not as heavy and cumbersome to lug around as the M-1 Garand.

Keep in mind that, especially in the early stages of the War, American front lines were chaotic and sometimes non-existent. Support troops often engaged the enemy. My father told me that as soon he got to Korea, the combat infantry troops passed his transport company in full retreat, meaning his company was the front line. There were complaints about lack of power in the M-1 carbines in penetrating thickly padded winter uniforms, especially at longer ranges. My father took to carrying a full auto Chinese made weapon until the other guys razzed him so much for carrying a Commie gun. I think he liked the M-1 carbine, however, because he still keeps one loaded at home.

As a footnote, my father told me that only six of his original combat infantry regiment in Okinawa survived the War.

4V50 Gary
August 24, 2008, 11:49 AM
The concept of a lightweight, easy to handle rifle for a smaller frame person denigrates those smaller framed persons who can handle a big bore proficiently. OK, I'm only joking. ;)

Now, the idea of a lightweight, easy to handle semi-automatic rifle is a valid concept. You can carry more gear, operate it briefly with one hand and use the free hand to do something else (open a door, carry a small child, drag your buddy out of danger). I like the carbine concept but would opt for an AR based system instead of the M-1 Carbine. A couple of years ago I bought a scout-rail system for the M-1 Carbine and will mount it on my IAI carbine (the GIs will stay original).

Threefeathers
August 24, 2008, 11:58 AM
Interesting subject, I just put a thread on another site asking how many of us actually carried a carbine in the service. I did, and I love it. I killed two enemy combatants with one on two diffeent ocasiona and they died quickly. Of course one had 15 rounds in him from 6 feet or so the other a single round in the upper left chest that must have cut the upper part of his heart because blood came out of it in a stream.
I have 4 of them, 8 AR's. and 34 other rifles.
I keep an M-1 carbine near my desk with 15 rounds of Winchester soft point ammo.
My wife can use it as well as I can.
My first gun at night is a .38 Special Det Spec. If I can do it I get to the carbine.
That will take care of any problem we will have.

cohoskip
August 24, 2008, 12:30 PM
As Shadow said, the M1 Carbine was issued to officers and support troops.
I, being in the artillery in Korea, was issued one. Only mine was a M2 (full auto option). Being a staff NCO I was also issued a .45...

skeeter1
August 24, 2008, 01:16 PM
"I'm not pushing the M-1 as the best,just using the concept for discussion."

I got to plink with a M1 Carbine once, and it was great fun. Would I buy one? Probably not. I've got a .22LR levergun and .357Mag levergun for that, and a bunch of handguns.

I have to side with Pax. A good revolver is probably the best thing you can own. My personal "go-to gun" is a .38Spl S&W M60. If I get killed after five rounds out of that (and I've practiced a lot), then my number was up to meet my maker.

Having said that, my friend has a 95lb Doberman-Pinscher, and she's the best protection you can get. He got her when his daughters were running long-distance cross-country to go with them. The dog knows me, and we get along just fine, but anyone trying to get into his place would likely pee their pants and get out of there, pronto! It's a sweet dog, if it knows you, but a big Doberman is probably not something some BG is likely going to challenge.

Pat-inCO
August 24, 2008, 05:23 PM
The M1 Carbine is one of the most under rated rifles you can think of. WAY beyond the .22lr and WAY short of the "deer gun" (.270, .308, etc.). It delivers the same power level at 200 yards that a 9mm hand gun delivers at the muzzle, and a bit over the power level at the muzzle of a .44Mag handgun (also at the muzzle).

Is it a good "House Gun"? Not to my thinking. More power than you need in the house and being a rifle, is not the easiest to move around with in the house. Is it a good "Ranch Rifle"? ABSOLUTELY.

Do I have one? Yes, I do, and I really like shooting it. I load it to about military specs (about 1900 fps with a 110Gr soft point (yes- I know the military used fmj)). I tried some into a clay bank to see how they performed. Two rounds of FMJ and two of my hand loads. Spaced them about ten inches apart, alternating FMJ and soft point, going side to side. The two FMJs could not be found with a full length pencil, into the bank. The two soft points were about an inch into the clay. You touch them and a three inch wide blob fell out of the bank, with the bullet on the back end of it. Can you say "full energy transfer"?

I have an IMI version (military surplus - new - parts, assembled into sixty year old "new" guns). Shoots very nicely. Only one problem, the springs in the 15 round magazines were weak. DANG! The springs wore out after only sixty fiver years of sitting on the shelf! :D

snubbies
August 24, 2008, 05:57 PM
As I recall, not sure, they had problems with the 30 caliber M1 Carbine. When the Chinese came into the Korean war the carbine would not penetrate the padded clothing worn by the chinese. Does any body know about this???

Nnobby45
August 24, 2008, 06:14 PM
As I recall, not sure, they had problems with the 30 caliber M1 Carbine. When the Chinese came into the Korean war the carbine would not penetrate the padded clothing worn by the chinese. Does any body know about this???



The M1 Carbine lacked punch against adrenaline fuled bugle charging Chinese, but do you really think a quilted parkas stopped a 110gr. RN bullet leaving the muzzle at 1800 to 2000 fps. I don't think so.

Test theory on an old used sleeping bag, and make sure you put it in front of a safe backstop.

The carbine was a better alternative to being armed with a pistol. It's about a 100 yd. gun, but more effective up close.

Today, CorBon DPX in .30 Carbine should solve any HD stopping power issues.

SDC
August 24, 2008, 09:02 PM
As I recall, not sure, they had problems with the 30 caliber M1 Carbine. When the Chinese came into the Korean war the carbine would not penetrate the padded clothing worn by the chinese. Does any body know about this???

More than one report from the Korean War says that many of the Chinese troops who were sent into battle habitually smoked opium, and were found scattered across the battlefield with the pipes in their pockets; opium is a narcotic pain reliever, so I can imagine a non-CNS hit not having any immediate effect. I'd tend to believe that as a more likely cause of "failures" than a simple quilted jacket.

guntotin_fool
August 24, 2008, 09:15 PM
Chicom web gear also seems to place a lot of the "stuff" our guys carried around their hips, on the chest of the average PRA soldier. I would suppose a few hits on the spare mags and or other gear might have reduced the damage done by the shot, but just a padded quilted jacket? not unless they were filling them with sand.....

HiBC
August 24, 2008, 09:22 PM
Just for the sake of a more diverse discussion,I was thinking more along the lines of handguns take a little more competence and confidence,and if folks are looking at smaller handguns than a .38,a 9,or a .40,maybe the tin can fun plinker familiar long gun is more likely to get the job done.An Ithaca 37 20 ga,or a savage 311 20 ga double sawed off with 6 rounds on the butt,or a lever action .357 carbine,the marlin or Ruger 9mm or .45 carbines,are what I am asking about ,if the early warning alarm goes off,you have a locked,loaded piece while you call in.An AR-15 carbine is in the same league.
An M1 carbine is on the list,but so are other choices.
I used to load a nickel plated steel jacket Norma 93 gr .308 Luger/mauser softpoint handgun bullet in an M-1 carbine.Turned Jacks into chunks.

Dwight55
August 24, 2008, 11:52 PM
Not meaning to demean anyone's opinion of the M1 carbine, . . . but in 1966, we were sent to Long Xuyen, RVN to set up a base for the first group of PBR's up in that part of the river.

We were variously armed, . . . mostly Garands like mine, . . . but a few M1 carbines. At the RVN range one day, . . . I traded arms with one of the guys just to see how the carbine shot.

So help me, . . . if there had been a steel post there and the carbine had been my personal property, . . . I would have wrapped that little mule kicking piece of junk so tight around that steel pole, . . . you couldn't have seen daylight between the two.

My Garand, . . . my M3, . . . and later even my M14 didn't kick as hard as that carbine did.

No thanks, . . . didn't like it then, . . . don't need to re-try, . . . would never get one for my wife, . . . I like eating on time and my laundry done :D

May God bless,
Dwight

Glenn E. Meyer
August 25, 2008, 12:43 PM
A sleeping woman who has a 200 lb fellow jump on top of her is in trouble regardless of what gun is nearby.
I suggest,with this wake up call,a 20 gauge shotgun,or a reliable M-1 carbine,a trapper .357 lever gun,an M-4 5.56 or even a Ruger 10-22 might be better protection than many of the handguns that might be chosen as a small.low recoil piece for her.


If you are sleeping and a 200 lb fellow awakens you by being on top of you - is the gun directly relevant? You aren't easily reaching a long gun or a handgun till you remove the person. Or am I missing something about the starting point. If it is irrelevant - Pax has it nailed.

Samurai
August 25, 2008, 01:05 PM
Glenn, I think you're right on track. If, when you begin the "scenario," the 200 lb. man is already on top of you, you've got REAL problems which must be dealt with before the gun is deployed. In my martial arts classes it has always been my position that, if you're laying down with someone on top of you, the LAST thing you want to do is start wrestling for a gun! At that range, and with both bodies grounded, it's time to start inflicting immediate nerve damage to "disconnect the attacker's CPU" as quickly as possible.

For my $0.02, my fiance sleeps with a Ka-Bar hanging from the bedpost, and a sharp katana leaning behind the headboard. She is well-trained and comfortable with either weapon. The Browning Hi-Power (she's got expensive tastes!) is in a cupboard across the room. If she wakes up with a guy on top of her (presumably, someone OTHER THAN me!), she knows a few tricks to reposition him to the foot of the bed. From there, a blade gets drawn, and parts start coming off. If she wants to, after she's done with the blades, she can shoot the bloody pile of twitching goo that used to be the attacker.

Spade Cooley
August 25, 2008, 01:18 PM
I entered the U S Army in 1961 and was trained with the M-1. I loved it. I became a radio operator, Morse Code and Teletype, and when I arrived in Germany to serve along the border they issued everyone in our Communications Section a Carbine. I used it for almost a year and then they picked up the Carbines and issued us all M-14s. I liked to carry the Carbine on guard duty because it weighed a lot less but if in combat I would want the M-14.

HiBC
August 25, 2008, 02:25 PM
Maybe I don't write clearly.
I began with the idea that a first step is an early wake up device.Whether it is a motion detecting alarm,a really good dog or an iron gate across the hall to the bedroom,per Jeff Cooper.
The reason was ,if the bad guy is on top of someone as they are still sleeping,it may not matter what sort of weapon is available.The importance of some method of early wake up is the sole reason I included the 200 lb guy.
The next step,was to become armed.
I was inspired to write the thread after reading another person ask about a .32 H+R Mag for his wife.I also recalled my ex,who could enjoy plinking,but just wasn't into a centerfire defense handgun.
I do not pose myself as an expert,or telling anyone what they should do.I posed this thread to discuss the issue.I appreciate what PAX had to say.

Tuckahoe
August 25, 2008, 10:22 PM
My dad was issued a carbine in the US army while stationed in Alaska during the cold war. It was a back up gun to a nuclear missile that was pointed at Moscow.

jrothWA
August 26, 2008, 11:59 PM
the Carbine. Its loaded with three mags of Win 110gr HP's, and the feed ramp was stoned to minimize stuttering of soft-nosed ammo.

Its NOT an hard kicking recoiling firearm, as another poster has indicated.

For me I used it at a SMGC winter shoot in 2006, where participant show up in period clothing, and fired a JCGarand match @ 100 yds.
My first five sighters,(from prone) were in a line touching each one, in the ten ring on a SR-1 target.

I have used it for my daughter to carry deer hunting as she is 5'5" and 102# driipng wet. I was back-up with .308.

I know two other hunters that used to take deer from tree stands, under 100yds, with no problems, BUT they waited for the shot.

mpage
August 29, 2008, 11:05 PM
The Box O' Truth site did an interesting test which dispelled the myth about heavy clothing somehow taking the edge off of carbine rounds.

Crosshair
August 30, 2008, 11:07 AM
As I recall, not sure, they had problems with the 30 caliber M1 Carbine. When the Chinese came into the Korean war the carbine would not penetrate the padded clothing worn by the chinese. Does any body know about this???
Myth, the sights of the M1 carbine are adjustable out to 300 yards, but you are best to keep it inside 200. Solders were doing one of two things:

1. Undisciplined full auto fire with the M2, "I shot a whole clip into him and he kept on coming." When in reality he may not have hit the Chinese Solder at all, or perhaps nicked him in the arm.

2. Shooting at a target that is out of range. When your effective range on point targets is 200 yards and you are shooting at an enemy that is 400+ yards away, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you that you probably aren't going to hit anything and will be just wasting ammo. People with Garands were firing at the Chinese so the people with Carbines started firing too, when they should have waited until the Chinese got closer instead of wasting their ammo shooting dirt.

Not a fault of the Solders mind you, it was a fault in their training.

mini4m3
September 7, 2008, 03:58 PM
I love the m1 carbine. Statistically if you look at the numbers the m1 carbine hits like...

A 357 mag would at point blank - after the 30Carb had traveled 100yds
A 22LR would at point blank - after the 30Carb had traveled 500yds

Personally to have the ability to reach out and touch someone at 100yds with a 357mag is awesome.