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GWbiker
August 22, 2008, 09:45 PM
She's mid 30's, single, two children and never fired a gun before. She also has a married to someone else boyfriend who sometimes visits her place and slaps her around a bit. Really treats her like crap!

So.....I packed up a RIA 1911 with rimfire conversion kit, a Beretta 70S .380 and a J frame Smith, some ammo and the little lady and we headed for the range.

I picked a large silhouette target, on which she wrote BF's name on the face, posted it and I taught her basic gun safety and how to shoot three handguns.

From a little over three yard distance she did quite well for a first time shooter. All shots went into the chest area.

She took the target home with her to show her daughters, who got a real kick out of it.

Her BF is coming over late tonight. She plans to show him the target, with his name written on it.

I wish I could record his reaction!

tranks
August 22, 2008, 09:51 PM
Her BF is coming over late tonight. She plans to show him the target, with his name written on it.

ummm, this sounds like a horrible idea. if he already beats her and shes going to show him a shot up target with his name on it.

might as well call the cops now. there no way thats going to end well.

HKFan9
August 22, 2008, 09:58 PM
+1 to above

CortJestir
August 22, 2008, 10:09 PM
Not to mention what would happen if jealous BF asks her who took her shooting... Nice enough for you to introduce someone to shooting though, but I hope it doesn't bring about some unintended consequences for you or your neighbor.

B.N.Real
August 22, 2008, 10:13 PM
You'll see his reaction.

In her broken nose and blackened eyes.

And if he gets really mad,he might just kill her.

If you get yourself into the middle of this situation,it could cause you to be blamed for anything bad that comes out of it.

She needed to swear out a restraining order on this guy and arm herself legally to protect herself and her kids.

You cannot do that for her.

If she refuses to stop letting this guy into her house and her life then she is simply letting thios guy beat the crud out of her and is'nt going to stop him.

I can't believe you let her do this.

Guys who beat up women live for this kind of reason to really beat the stink out of a woman.

"Gone to the range with another guy eh?"

"Going to shoot me,eh?"

"Oh,you're a real badxxx" and then the beating starts and does'nt stop until the guy gets tired.

I'd call the police if I really cared about the young lady and fill them in on what she told you and let them get involved.

At least if he kills her or she kills him,the facts were already on the books.

ElectricHellfire
August 22, 2008, 10:16 PM
Sounds like one of those situations where she ends up getting back in good with him and you end up looking like a tool. Your intentions are good but probaby mis-guided. Stay away IMO.

Don Lu
August 22, 2008, 10:50 PM
Dude, very bad move. Not well thought out at all. If your story is true, she will be in for a world of hurt and there could be some trouble for you too. What did/do you think his reaction will be when she shows him the target with his name, what do you think will happen when he finds out or assumes she was with another man while shooting the imaginary "him" and what do you think his reaction will be when she gets scared of his tirade/smacks and she tells him it was you and gives him whatever info she has about you to him...I hope this is not a true story.

If you wanted to be the Hero, you should have stepped to the guy yourself and let the chips fall, rather than setting her up...hopefully she is smart enough to reconsider...Her BF is coming over late tonight. She plans to show him the target, with his name written on it.She's mid 30's, single, two children I almost forgot aboout kids being involved,
realllly bad idea, I almost want to say "shame on you"...I will..Shame on you !

Borch
August 22, 2008, 11:08 PM
Very admirable that you woud introduce someone who needs a little bit of self confidence and self respect to shooting as it can help to improve those things. However, for her sake I hope she rethinks showing him that target, and if she does show it to him I hope she doesn't come running to your house for help when he beats the crap out of her.

Elvishead
August 23, 2008, 12:41 AM
To show it to him might antagonize an undesirable reaction, good, bad, or indifferent.

She should put it somewhere that he might accidentally run into it. Or leave the target on the front door, and let the target speak for it's self.

Hopefully he'll get the picture.

b.thomas
August 23, 2008, 01:12 AM
Quote: "Her BF is coming over late tonight. She plans to show him the target, with his name written on it. I wish I could record his reaction!"

If this is a real deal then you just might on tomorrows eleven o'clock news!:eek:

Dumb move on your part, you did nothing but add to a already volatile
situation.

kamerer
August 23, 2008, 01:36 AM
I am not going to beat up on GWBiker any more - he's heard an earful. I'm going to recount an event of my own on the same theme that I learned something from, maybe others will recall it and repeat it and avoid trouble.

Years back, I called up an ex of mine that I had left, but we had always had a good time. Just touching base and trying to stay friends after a few months. It turned out she was actually going through a scary break up with a guy she has seen subsequently. She was afraid of him, scared, etc. I had a hard time believing it at first as he was not, from what I could collect, a rough type - relatively high-paid software programmer, educated, did high-level work for a nationally know organization, licensed pilot, no record, etc. But he had left terribly scary messages on her machine ("I will F*&k you up!, etc.). I heard the messages, it wasn't just her story I had to rely upon. This guy had lost it. Furthermore, she had not sought me out for help, I just happened to re-appear at a critical time. The evidence of his instability was digital, unable to be faked, and real.

Calling the Seattle PD was pointless, they listened to the tapes and said they couldn't prove who it was (apparently that cell phone ID stuff is only on CSI!), didn't care about the threats of violence and death, and wanted to see some blood before they could justify getting involved. Thank you for your public service.

Left alone to deal with a crazy violent person, I wanted to go to his house, give him a talk-down, warn him off, and then leave her a gun of mine. Talking this through with another person, they said - "Hey, that's just not wise. Why put your handgun in a bad situation, in the hands of someone untrained and inexperienced, and out of your control? Does this sound like a good situation?" That resonated with me, and made my initial, visceral instinct snap back into a more thoughtful mode. The smart thing to do was to take HER out of the bad situation. I moved her into my place, since he had no idea I existed in any concrete way other than as an "Ex" - no address, name, etc. that he could track, until it all blew over. This was safe, less escalating, and solved it. It didn't go down well with my girlfriend in the short term, but it probably saved a nasty assault case or possibly worse.

Lessons: Don't use guns as a defense when other methods are available. Don't draw when you can run; don't arm another when you can just take them somewhere safe. Don't boast about having a gun or being willing to use it unless it's time to draw it. Don't escalate anything. Don't refuse to act, but don't make an aggressive act your first act.

2cooltoolz
August 23, 2008, 02:09 AM
Yeah...Sorry Dude...wrong play I think.
Mr Macho is going to have to prove he's still the man. One trip to the range, like one trip to the dojo, is just enough to get you hurt. Good intentions, but.....call the police.
Personally, partner....you should bail out here anyway. After the first sign of abuse any sane female/male would leave. Why is she still hanging? More here than you can fix. Call the police.

mk70ss
August 23, 2008, 07:32 AM
Dumb, dumb, dumb idea. Teaching her to shoot was a great idea. Teaching her irresponsibly is just stupid.:mad:

pax
August 23, 2008, 09:03 AM
Worse than that ... if she ever does decide to protect herself, the existence of that target could easily change her court ruling from justified self defense to premeditated murder. You really would not want to be explaining that target to a jury made up of people who don't like guns in the first place.

pax

JWT
August 23, 2008, 10:49 AM
IF the boyfriend didn't show and hasn't seen the target yet you might make an attempt to retrieve it or have her toss it.

Your intentions were decent but should have been confined to showing her how to shoot and encouraging her to leave the target at the range.

kraigwy
August 23, 2008, 10:57 AM
If her bf beats her regularly, and she is allowing him to come back, and he is married to someone else, she has a lot more problems then showing the BF a target with his name on it.

I think you are the one who needs to beat feet. That looks like a problem I sure wouldnt want to haul to my range.

bbrian
August 23, 2008, 10:57 AM
"I wish I could record his reaction!" So do the police. That evidence would come in handy at the trial.

Nice of you to take her shooting, but maybe some better advice would be to tell her to stop seeing him. At least that's better than trying to **** him off. Call me crazy.

44 AMP
August 23, 2008, 03:13 PM
Having a target with holes in the right place? Good. Having a bullseye target with the middle shot out? Best.

Having a silhouette target with the boyfriend's name on it? Bad, very bad.

Having a well shot target to show the BF? OK, especially if she says something like "Look Honey, see what I learned? Now I can defend myself when you are not here!" Subtle, but I think it would get the right message across. Showing the bad BF a shot up target with his name on it is a bad idea, kind of like poking the sleeping bear. In some places, it might even constitute a legal threat. Not good.

Get in touch with this woman as soon as you can, and if things have not already passed the point of no return, convince her not to show BF any target with his name or picture on it!

Smaug
August 23, 2008, 04:19 PM
Well, I agree with the general responses here.

I assume that by now you have read them and are trying to convince her to destroy that target.

I think maybe the best thing you can do for her is convince her to change the locks, not give the scumbag a key, and do the restraining order. Let her know that if things are not going well, she and her kids can always come over to your house for a while. (if that is indeed OK)

bluetopper
August 23, 2008, 09:23 PM
The original poster knows the situation and participants waaay better than any of us. Give him a break and let's not jump to conclusions and give him a little credit as to having some sense.

GWbiker
August 23, 2008, 09:25 PM
My such drama from the "Gloom n' Doom" crowd. :(

Here's an update:

I met BF a few weeks ago. He's about 5'4". I'm close to 6' tall. He had few words to say to me and he knows where I live, plus he knows I'm retired LEO.

One of her close neighbors is a Tucson LEO who's home weekends. His phone number is on her speed dial. Likewise my cell number and I live just 50 yards away.

I don't know if he saw the target, but she threw him out this afternoon. He's packing his stuff as I type. Her neighbors are keeping an eye on the move. Her two teens have cell phones and know how to dial 911.

She asked me to take her Monday to file a restraining order against BF.

I'm just surprised by the negative response on this forum to someones attempt to keep a nice woman from becoming a doormat to someone who ignores his own family.

Yeah, I'll hear on this forum that her domestic affair is none of my business. Well damn it, I made it my business, so flame away!!:mad:

Smaug
August 23, 2008, 09:35 PM
GWbiker - I don't see it as a negative response. We're just looking out for you, and it seems that we only had part of the story.

Well played.

Making it your business reminds me of that guy Joe (?) from Texas a couple years back who blasted those two Columbian drug dealers with his 12 ga. pump shotgun after they robbed his neighbor's house because 911 wasn't getting there in time. He said stop, they charged him, and now they're pushing up daisies.

Except your situation is more proactive than reactive.

ElectricHellfire
August 23, 2008, 10:01 PM
Yeah, I'll hear on this forum that her domestic affair is none of my business. Well damn it, I made it my business, so flame away!!

No flames. You seem like a good hearted person. Just wishing you luck.

WVfishguy
August 23, 2008, 10:05 PM
I'm just surprised by the negative response on this forum to someones attempt to keep a nice woman from becoming a doormat to a reprobate who ignores his own family.

We need more people like GWbiker.

Most of us are too scared to "do the right thing."

I've encountered scenarios like this in the past. I've always "done the right thing."

The "right thing" is seldom the "safe thing." We need to think about what's right, not what is safe.

EastSideRich
August 23, 2008, 11:19 PM
It's great she got rid of that POS. It could have easily ended up playing out (and may still) as people here had imagined. Guys who knock women around usually wouldn't take things like showing them a target with their name and a bunch of holes on it very well. I would bet the majority of guys who don't have a problem hitting their girlfriend would have really taught her a lesson after that; not to mention what they would have done (or will do) to you for taking her on what is pretty close to a date.
As an aside I would be furious if my wife went to a shooting range, or anywhere with some guy. I would never even dream of hitting her, but that basically is going on a date, and I would not be happy.
Women get killed by their husbands/boyfriends everyday. Maybe you knew him well enough to "know" how he would react, but I doubt you absolutely knew - without a doubt - that he would not beat the hell out of her, or worse.
I happen to think this was an extremely irresponsible way to have handled the situation.
I hope that is the last she sees of him; but I also hope you consider the possible consequences if you are ever in a situation like this again.
Aside from what you type on some internet forum, if you are honest with yourself, you have to admit this could have turned out very bad for this girl and her kids.
I'm not "flaming" you or saying you're a bad guy, but this really could have gotten her hurt.

If you absolutely needed to make this your business, maybe you should have been there for her breaking it off with him - maybe letting him know (without actually saying it, of course) that he may find himself in an uncomfortable spot (like in a hole in the woods somewhere) if he comes back to do anything to her - afterall, you are ex-LEO, and probably would hypothetically know how to make something like that happen. Even if you would never do anything like that, he doesn't have to know that.

pax
August 23, 2008, 11:38 PM
Nothing wrong with making it your business.

Everything wrong with making it your business in a way that was likely to get her beaten or killed.

And even more wrong with making it your business in a way that made her legal situation MUCH more precarious in the event she actually did end up shooting the bastard.

Good on you for getting involved. Seriously. The world needs more people willing to step up to the plate and get involved.

Next time, watch a little closer for potential unintended consequences.

pax

Elvishead
August 23, 2008, 11:53 PM
:eek:

Yeah, I'll hear on this forum that her domestic affair is none of my business. Well damn it, I made it my business, so flame away!!

I hope I didn't sound like a flamer! I'm not the flaming type of guy.

Elvishead

To show it to him might antagonize an undesirable reaction, good, bad, or indifferent.

She should put it somewhere that he might accidentally run into it. Or leave the target on the front door, and let the target speak for it's self.

Hopefully he'll get the picture.

Glad things are getting better for her. Good luck!

forest15
August 24, 2008, 07:34 AM
GW Biker,

Let me get this straight, you post this situation, and now are mad that people have opinions that differ from yours and post them? Maybe if you didn't want the feedback, you shouldn't have posted about the situation :confused: And I was just as confused about your actions as everyone else... Instead of giving her a phone number for an abused women's shelter or call the police yourself, you teach her to shoot? I'm glad she got rid of him, but maybe next time you will devote your time to helping her get out of a bad situation in a manner that doesn't include shooting her boyfriend, that she chooses to keep in her life... And regardless of what you do, you definitely shouldn't post you personal business if you get this fired up when others post their opinions :rolleyes: Just my two cents, hopefully you don't get mad at me for posting my opinion on your situation that you made public :)

Don Lu
August 24, 2008, 08:21 AM
Just because it has worked out ok (for now), doesnt mean you chose a smart or wise course of action. I dont take back a thing I said before...as ex LEO, I would imagine you realize that you did not take steps to ensure the saftey (legal and physical) of anyone involved.

ArizonaTRex
August 24, 2008, 09:21 AM
GWbiker - Which range, Marksman I or Marksman II?

GWbiker
August 24, 2008, 05:06 PM
GWbiker - Which range, Marksman I or Marksman II?

The one on Prince.

Saab1911
August 24, 2008, 07:03 PM
I think that if one sees a lady in an abusive relationship, one has several
logical options

1) Mind your own @@@@@@@ business.
2) Alert the authorities.
3) Get the lady some professional help, as in psychotherapy. And you
pay for it and drive her to the appointments and if possible sit with her while
she is getting counseling.

Putting the guy's name on a target and having the lady shoot at it and
encouraging her to show the target to the abusive boyfriend is not
something a responsible adult would do.

Often times, the women in abusive relationships go from one such relationship
to another. Yes, you can blame the abusive boyfriend or husband, but some
women just gravitate toward abusive men. There are psychological aspects
of the woman's mindset which you know nothing about. If you really want to
help her, you need to get her professional help, and if you've stuck your
nose in that far you may as well pay for the therapy sessions yourself until she's
healed and learns to not repeat the cycle of abuse.

The woman could have been killed.

GWbiker
August 25, 2008, 06:31 PM
The woman is doing just fine. She was not beaten, she was not verbally abused and she was not shot. Today she obtained a restraining order against former BF. She has met new friends since Saturday evening. Life goes on!

I believe this should satisfy those posters who sit around scratching their heads mumbling that GWbiker shoulda/woulda/coulda did things some other way. This forum seems to be filled with Monday morning Quarterbacks who probably would wet themselves if faced with a immediate life threatening situation.

I'm not mad at any one individual, I'm just disgusted with this forum. I now realize that I don't belong here. I see far too many persons here who would sit around scratching their butt for an hour or so BEFORE taking any action to help a person in dire distress.

Moderator can please close me out. I'm otta of here! No PM's please, I won't answer them!

Elvishead
August 25, 2008, 10:34 PM
I did that to a target of my neighbor Roger, to make fun of him. Here in Vegas, we have a community water well. Roger is in charge of finance billing, maintenance, repairs, and monitoring our water intake.

One of the less desirable neighbors was wasting water, flooding the streets during the day with a screwed up sprinklers, and illegal daytime usage.

So Roger had to let the guy know. The guy sent him a nasty letter calling Roger the water police.

This photo speaks for it's self.:D It was done in good fun.

orionengnr
August 29, 2008, 06:03 PM
I've encountered scenarios like this in the past. I've always "done the right thing."

The "right thing" is seldom the "safe thing." We need to think about what's right, not what is safe.

The "right thing" is not always the "smart thing". It's not your butt on the line, only your ego.

I believe this should satisfy those posters who sit around scratching their heads mumbling that GWbiker shoulda/woulda/coulda did things some other way. This forum seems to be filled with Monday morning Quarterbacks who probably would wet themselves if faced with a immediate life threatening situation.

I'm not mad at any one individual, I'm just disgusted with this forum. I now realize that I don't belong here. I see far too many persons here who would sit around scratching their butt for an hour or so BEFORE taking any action to help a person in dire distress.

Yeah, we'll sooooo miss your chest-pounding holier-than-thou dismissal of anyone who's ideas don't match yours.... :rolleyes:

C-Ya.

Socrates
August 29, 2008, 06:12 PM
GWBIKER:

You wrote a post, omitting vital facts, like this:
I'm retired LEO.

That's HUGE.

As retired LEO, you should understand the comments made by the people here.

JohnKSa
August 29, 2008, 07:31 PM
Shooting a likeness of someone, especially one that's labeled by name, and then providing that target to the person is clearly a threat. If you MEAN to threaten someone that's certainly one way to do it, but you should be aware of the possible consequences of threatening someone in that fashion.

In TX, that would, IMO, qualify as a terroristic threat, a Class B misdemeanor in general or a Class A misdemeanor if applied to a family member--a sufficient offense to get a CHL revoked.

Socrates
August 29, 2008, 07:48 PM
Well, my roomie was just picked up by the former LEO armour for our city, now retired. After being around both of them for over 15 years, I can safely say that first you have to get a police officer to file something, against a former LEO. Second, you have to get a DA to file, and, considering the circumstances, snow is more likely this time of year in Texas then a DA filing a terrorist threat against a retired LEO, or, a girl who is getting beaten by her boyfriend, and, who files for a RO.

Don't know about Texas, but LEO retired around here are about the only group, other then judges, that get CCW.

NO DA is going to get reelected by going after a retired LEO, or, for that matter an abused woman, trying to break off a relationship with a violent, abusive mate.

Also, at least here, a threat requires the physical force, and proximity to carry that threat out. Unless I'm Putin, and I have a nuclear missile aimed at your house, I can't threaten you long distance on the phone.

In this case, the target was NOT accompanied by the ability, and proximity, to be able to carry any implied threat out. The abused woman did not have a gun, or other weapon that we know of. GWBiker clearly understands the law, how far he can stretch it, and what is required for such a situation to be 'a threat'.

JohnKSa: If you have a specific statute on this, in Texas, please link to it. It is possible that they worded the Texas statutes to ge rid of the proximity requirement, and, the ability to carry the threat out, but, again, it's more likely to be snowing down there...

JohnKSa
August 29, 2008, 08:04 PM
Socrates,

I believe that GWBiker is the one who's ex-LEO, I don't believe the woman is ex-LEO and since she's the one handing over the target she would be the one seen to be making the threat. However, I was really responding to Elvishead's post about shooting a labeled humanoid target and providing it to the neighbor whose name was on it.

The TX statute is pretty wide open... See what your read is. I tend to agree that it would be viewed with much less concern if the person presenting the target was known not to own a firearm. Then again, the target in and of itself constitutes pretty good proof that the person has at least some access to a firearm.

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.005.00.000022.00.htm#22.07.00

§ 22.07. TERRORISTIC THREAT. (a) A person commits an
offense if he threatens to commit any offense involving violence to
any person or property with intent to:
...
(2) place any person in fear of imminent serious
bodily injury;
...
(c) An offense under Subsection (a)(2) is a Class B
misdemeanor, except that the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if the
offense:
(1) is committed against a member of the person's
family or household or otherwise constitutes family violence;

Socrates
August 29, 2008, 08:29 PM
Fair enough:
§ 22.07. TERRORISTIC THREAT. (a) A person commits an
offense if he threatens to commit any offense involving violence to
any person or property with intent to:
(1) cause a reaction of any type to his threat by an
official or volunteer agency organized to deal with emergencies;
(2) place any person in fear of imminent serious
bodily injury;

The prongs are person in fear and imminent serious bodily injury. This is the part I was referencing above. Came from common law, and, pretty much is a standard legal concept. To be in fear, the person has to be within threat distance, and, usually it's reasonable fear, or, it can be like tort logic, you take the person as they are. In other words, if you are insane, and, I point a water pistol at you, and you believe the water pistol is filled with something that will make you melt, that CAN sometimes be considered sufficient, if the person making the threat has knowledge of the person they threatens mental state.
That's usually the minority position.

If Mr. Biker had walked up, carrying his gun, and handed the guy the target, and said something like,
"If you hit her again..." THAT would qualify. However, as I said, snow would be falling in Texas first to get that charged...

I do remember my martial arts teacher one time doing something that was pretty funny. Some black belt was getting cocky, I think it was me.;) He grabbed a pine, 1" thick board, dropped it, and broke it while it was falling, with the other hand. As it bounced off the wall he said,

"Thinking of you!" and smiled.:eek::D

I got the point...

JohnKSa
August 29, 2008, 09:13 PM
the person has to be within threat distanceSince the threat involves a firearm, wouldn't that condition be established if a person is close enough to hand the target over? Also seems that the same would apply to the condition in the law that the feared injury would be "serious" since any injury from a firearm could easily be serious.

I guess I don't understand what sort of innocuous message could be conveyed by handing someone a target that is personalized with their name and shot full of holes. The only reasonable interpretation I can think of is: "I have a gun, I'm using it to practice shooting you and I want you to know it."

I would think that certainly places a person in fear of serious injury, the only question left is how "imminent" the threat is.

At the least if the person being handed the target wants to make trouble for the "handee" they now have some excellent concrete evidence to provide the police. Would the charges stick? Dunno about that, but I'll bet it would be enough for a restraining order, a CHL suspension and probably firearms confiscation.

Thoughts?

bbrian
August 29, 2008, 09:21 PM
GWBiker –

I didn’t realize that you are “close to 6' tall”. Now that I have that important piece of information, I take back all the bad things I said about your plan.

Please don’t quit the forum.

MrNiceGuy
August 29, 2008, 09:23 PM
I'm not mad at any one individual, I'm just disgusted with this forum. I now realize that I don't belong here. I see far too many persons here who would sit around scratching their butt for an hour or so BEFORE taking any action to help a person in dire distress.

my, what an ignorant statement

nobody is saying that you shouldnt help her improve her situation

But what you did was encourage her to provoke an abusive partner, and that is just a horrible, short-sided, and idiotic idea.

you made no statements of offering her a firearm for protection, you made no statements about attempting to protect her yourself, you just thought it was really cool to send her with a piece of paper that can do nothing but inflame a dangerous situation.

i'm glad it worked out ok, but the actions outlined in your first post did nothing but put her in more danger

Socrates
August 29, 2008, 09:53 PM
JohnSKA:

I would think that certainly places a person in fear of serious injury, the only question left is how "imminent" the threat is.
How imminent is: is Mr. Biker leaning out his window with his .308 rifle? The person with the target, the woman victim, has no firearm, therefore there is no 'imminent' threat.

At the least if the person being handed the target wants to make trouble for the "handee" they now have some excellent concrete evidence to provide the police. Would the charges stick? Dunno about that, but I'll bet it would be enough for a restraining order, a CHL suspension and probably firearms confiscation.

The woman wants a RO anyway. Usually both parties loose their right to bear arms, and, have their firearms confiscated.

The target would go to the womans' state of mind, that she wanted the person out of her life. Stretching it to she intended harm is missing both the capability of carrying out the act, and, the proximity to do it.

On the otherhand, if the woman was a woman power lifter, and, the guy was 5'4" and 100 pounds, he might have a good argument. Still, the prior violence, by the guy in question, witnessed by a former LEO, and, this being his attempt to remedy, and supervise the breakup goes a LONG way. There really are different rules for LEO and their friends, and the rest of us...

My girlfriend specialized in representing LEO around here in divorce cases. Trust me when I say the rules are different for her, vs. the average citizen...

JohnKSa
August 29, 2008, 10:01 PM
The person with the target, the woman victim, has no firearm, therefore there is no 'imminent' threat.This is the part I don't get. How would the boyfriend know this? She clearly had access to a gun at some point in the recent past or she couldn't have shot the target. And handguns are easily concealable.Stretching it to she intended harm is missing both the capability of carrying out the act, and, the proximity to do it.Again, the target is concrete evidence of the capability, and clearly if one can hand over an item to another that's sufficient proximity to injure someone with a firearm.

Are you using a specialized (legal) definition of proximity & capability?Still, the prior violence, by the guy in question, witnessed by a former LEO, and, this being his attempt to remedy, and supervise the breakup goes a LONG way.I can see the truth in that, however there's also a more general situation under discussion where no LEOs are involved. It's worth addressing that as well since we won't all have LEOs next door who know the situation...

Socrates
August 29, 2008, 10:29 PM
"Did the defendant show you a firearm?"
"Has she EVER had a firearm?"
"Are you aware Texas has a 10 day waiting period before a woman can own a machine gun, handgun or rifle?"
"What sort of firearm do you think was used to shoot this target?"
"Your statement is that because the entire head portion of the target, and the groin area was removed, you believe it was a shotgun?"
"Did the defendant have a shotgun on her person when she presented you with the target?"
"What did she say when she handed you the target?"
"Did the defendant ever threaten to shoot you?"
"Why do you believe she was armed?"
"If the defendant intended to shoot you, and had a gun, why are you still alive?"
"Didn't the defendant state that the shooting was done with a firearm owned by your next door, LEO retired?"
"How often do you beat your girlfriend?"

Are you using a specialized (legal) definition of proximity & capability?

Yes. The courts, usually common law, or the Supreme Court of the United States, are usually responsible for developing 'tests' to show if the requirements for the prongs of the terms are met. These are dependent, sometimes, on state law, or state case law, or, Federal law, or appellate law. Depending on the state you are in, the 'tests' for each term maybe different from other states, or, they maybe the same. Also, Federal law can differ from state law, on the same subject.

Law, and law school, is about an intelligent debate of the different prongs of the terms, and, what sort of evidence you can bring into support each.

I don't have Texas case law on the subject, but, I suspect it's going to go towards favoring the battered woman...

JohnKSa
August 29, 2008, 11:54 PM
I suspect it's going to go towards favoring the battered woman...I'd say that's likely, especially since the ex-LEO was on her side.

HOWEVER, there are also some general principles involved that are applicable to situations that don't involve an ex-LEO neighbor or a battered woman. I think that in general a person would be very wise to forego presenting shot up humanoid targets to persons whose names appear on those targets. It's definitely a good way to get unwanted attention from the police, and maybe a good way to get to explain yourself in court.

To make bullet holes in targets you need a gun--that's not rocket science. Shooting a humanoid target with someone's name on it is not a friendly gesture; giving that target to the person whose name is on it is even less friendly. It's certainly a threat of some kind with a firearm playing a significant role in the mix. Not something that is likely to be taken lightly in this day and age.

Socrates
August 30, 2008, 07:59 AM
All the woman would have to do is say the guy next door shot the target, after seeing me being punched, or, seeing the result of a beating I took on such and such a date.

My martial arts story is also on point. Humor, that sort around LE0's, and retired military, is not uncommon..

Again: you have to have the present, imminent ability to carry out the threat, and, the intent to do it. The statute you are referencing and this situation do NOT mesh.

I'm sure CWBiker knows the law, and, followed it.

As for the rest of us, I agree with you on a general principal, but, the law expects us to put up with jokes, some level of verbal abuse, etc. That's the price of a free country. Physical abuse is generally where the line is drawn.

One of my bosses tried to intimidate a coke dealer into stopping his dealing activities in our restaurant by punching a locker. It worked once. He tried the same tactic, and was sued for assault, since, after bending the locker, it was real clear what he could have done to the kids face, and, since he only missed by an inch or two, he was close enough, and his fists being the weapon, he was capable and ready to do damage.

That is a classic example of assault. Also, not mentioned in this situation, assault and battery are also intentional torts, or civil suits, where you are often held to a MUCH lower standard then the criminal standard. In that arena it's quite common for the courts to base their decision on the reasonable belief of the threat by the plaintiff, not by an objective standard, like the criminal statute we are discussing. In civil court, Mr. Biker, using the woman as a conveyance, or working in colusion, might well end up paying the abuser. Also, the immunities that are present in criminal court for ex-LEO are not present in civil lawsuits. Often different judges, different attorneys, and no DA you've worked with for 25 years...

44 AMP
August 31, 2008, 02:43 PM
Are kind of a double edged sword. Go out and get a picture of OSAMA and shoot it full of holes and have a nice day. Go out and get a picture of OBAMA and shoot it full of holes and the Secret Service will want to talk to you! Maybe at length, and you may be invited to stay at a govt housing!

GWbiker, sorry you chose to judge the entire forum and all the people here by the responses of a few on a very specific and at the same time rather vague issue. I didn't notice anyone here saying you shouldn't help the woman, only that many of us disagreed with the idea of a target with the abuser's NAME on it, placed where he would see it, when (with the info we had) the woman had no means of responding to him other than that same target. It seemed to me in particular that the target was likely to escalate or inflame a volitile situation, and do it before the woman was prepared for that.

From our viewpoint (which is entirely based on the information you supplied) it looked like the situation could go either way like the toss of a coin, and we were concerned both for her, and for you. Your later post included a lot more information, and your continued involvement was one factor that no doubt helped things turn out the way they have.

You can take your ball and go home if you wish, but you ought to stay around this Internet playground for a while longer, there are many useful things to be learned here, even if (or especially if) you don't agree with some of the folks, or they with you. I think you have made a hasty (and wrong) judgement, but judgement is what this post was all about, and you must live with yours, which makes it more important to you than it does to those of us sitting on the sidelines and commenting.

Many of us choose handguns based on their ability (and ours) to deal with the worst possible outcome of a situation. Giving our advice on a situation often is done with that same mindset. If you can deal with the worst possible situation, everything less is a piece of cake.

BillCoe
September 1, 2008, 08:04 AM
GWbiker, good on ya for getting in the ring and not just sitting in your house wringing your hands or complaining on a forum (barking dogs behind a fence comes to mind!) . I would think you and the other former LEO neighbor would have wanted to have been there when she presented the target to ******* (soon t be former) BF as she tossed him out forever. Maybe that was the case and I misread it. Having moral support is fine, but having physical presence as a backup can mean everything.

Glad it worked out for all concerned (including BF who hopefully learned something) so well.

Creature
September 1, 2008, 08:12 AM
nevermind...