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Saab1911
August 20, 2008, 03:23 PM
I've always heard that the mere sound of a pump action shotgun being racked
makes a perp #2 in his pants and generally incapable of doing you any harm.

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

So, then why does one need shots for the shotgun? Better yet, why can't
I just go to a gun store with a tape recorder and record the sound of a
pump action shotgun being racked and when there's a perp in my house
I can play back that fearsome :rolleyes: sound from ten different speakers
all over the house. The perp will #1, #2 and run for the nearest exit thinking
that there are ten different shotguns in the house.

I know it's good marketing, but following the "logic" we've all been fed
too many times to count, no one needs to buy any more shotguns. All
we need are recordings of the pump action shotguns being racked.

Let's just debunk this bull right here. A perp that will grovel at the mere
sound of a shotgun being racked probably can be chased off by a poodle.

I personally would rather have a high powered semi-auto rifle myself, if
I'm trained on it. Otherwise, I would much rather defend myself with a
1911 or a revolver. Don't get me wrong. A shotgun in the right hands
can do a lot of damage, and a shotgun is a good choice for home defense.
But like any firearm, you need to know how to employ it effectively.
Otherwise, it's an expensive club.

Cheers,

Jae

Brian Pfleuger
August 20, 2008, 03:30 PM
Jae,

Sometimes the first "pump" doesn't get it done. Some perps are pretty tough, mentally I mean.


Sometimes it takes 4 maybe 5 pumps before.... Oh, crap... muh guns empty. Dang!

Saab1911
August 20, 2008, 03:33 PM
Jae,

Sometimes the first "pump" doesn't get it done. Some perps are pretty tough, mentally I mean.

Sometimes it takes 4 maybe 5 pumps before.... Oh, crap... muh guns empty. Dang!


:D That's why I favor a recording of a pump action shotgun. ;)

News Shooter
August 20, 2008, 03:54 PM
I agree. That is high on my list of the one stupidest internet cliches going and everybody parrots it as though they know what they are talking about

Brian Pfleuger
August 20, 2008, 03:55 PM
Seriously though, I can see an argument made for a situation where it could be handy. It would scare the #2 out of me but then again, I'm not inclined to prowl around in peoples houses. The sound of a 1911 being racked would scare me just as bad.

SPUSCG
August 20, 2008, 03:56 PM
id pump silently and let a muzzle stuck in their face scare em
my house isnt very big and im picking a shotgun up tmrw

Saab1911
August 20, 2008, 04:04 PM
The sound of a 1911 being racked would scare me just as bad.


So would the sound of a revolver's hammer being cocked for me, but
I'm not a hardened criminal.

The idea that a sound, other than sound of actual firearm discharge, would
scare a hardened criminal silly is just ... well silly.

cheers,

jae

oystermick
August 20, 2008, 04:10 PM
Well, before the sound of the of a shotgun being pumped an intruder would hear the sound of the dog telling him he should change his plans. Were he foolish enough to further the intrusion, the next sound he'd hear would be that of his flesh being torn by the dog.
You can all say what you will about home defense, but nothing surpasses the dog as the first line.

Wildebees
August 20, 2008, 05:34 PM
Gents,

In the real world your house has been scouted and decided upon, your routine has been checked, your sleeping and waking patterns have been scrutinised, your dog been fed, they have been onto your property at least twice to check your systems.

Then they either feed your dog meat or poison it with Temic - it goes two steps and dies in silence, no suffering, Then when your family is watching TV and they hear someone is having a bath, they throw a garden chair through the window, rush in and put a gun to your daughter's head and one aimed at you before you have gone to your gun safe to get the short pumpgun, and even if you have it in your hands he crowds your kid and the other one whips your wife in the mouth with his Z88 9mm. They are hard and trained and fearless and in control, not you. They put the gun against your head and rapes your wife and daughter in front of you, then take the mobile phones, your watch, the pump gun, your vehicle keys and execute you from behind after you have cried and begged for your life. It happens daily in my city; and elsewhere.

We've been attacked. We won. We are the exemptions to the rule.

I do have a pump gun, but my revolver is on me, I have gone through the mental exercise of not being scared anymore to kill immediately, and still I know that initially there is huge trauma and they have the initiative and I shall be reactive. That is the crucial thing- to immediately take the initiative, whatever the odds. They are trained in their actions, you better be as well.

Saab1911
August 20, 2008, 05:56 PM
:eek:
Gents,

In the real world your house has been scouted and decided upon, your routine has been checked, your sleeping and waking patterns have been scrutinised, your dog been fed, they have been onto your property at least twice to check your systems.

Then they either feed your dog meat or poison it with Temic - it goes two steps and dies in silence, no suffering, Then when your family is watching TV and they hear someone is having a bath, they throw a garden chair through the window, rush in and put a gun to your daughter's head and one aimed at you before you have gone to your gun safe to get the short pumpgun, and even if you have it in your hands he crowds your kid and the other one whips your wife in the mouth with his Z88 9mm. They are hard and trained and fearless and in control, not you. They put the gun against your head and rapes your wife and daughter in front of you, then take the mobile phones, your watch, the pump gun, your vehicle keys and execute you from behind after you have cried and begged for your life. It happens daily in my city; and elsewhere.

We've been attacked. We won. We are the exemptions to the rule.

I do have a pump gun, but my revolver is on me, I have gone through the mental exercise of not being scared anymore to kill immediately, and still I know that initially there is huge trauma and they have the initiative and I shall be reactive. That is the crucial thing- to immediately take the initiative, whatever the odds. They are trained in their actions, you better be as well.


I'm sure glad I don't live in your neighborhood. :eek:

But more to the point, would the attackers you mention be scared away
when you simply rack the pump on your shotgun?

Brian Pfleuger
August 20, 2008, 06:09 PM
Gents,

In the real world your house has been scouted and decided upon....


Wow, unless your talking about the Nazi SS, I'm not sure where this kind of thing happens. At least not as the normal MO.

fjk1911
August 20, 2008, 06:42 PM
A BG will only hear a pump shotgun rack in my house after the one in the pipe is fired as soon as the laser is on his chest.

Stevie-Ray
August 20, 2008, 06:51 PM
A perp that will grovel at the mere
sound of a shotgun being racked probably can be chased off by a poodle.That's why it's best to have that recording of a spastic poodle backing up the recording of racking the shotgun. Might as well cover all bases:D

Then when your family is watching TV and they hear someone is having a bath, they throw a garden chair through the window, rush in and put a gun to your daughter's head and one aimed at you before you have gone to your gun safeFor some of us, that first action of the chair going through the window would be greeted by the perpetrators eating 230 gr HydraShoks, or the like, as some of us have already spoken in other threads about being armed at all times while even in the house. Seems there is a clear distinction about location in this regard, that folks in rural areas and those far from a major city, don't seem to understand.

fjk1911
August 20, 2008, 07:03 PM
+1 Stevie Ray.

When an intrusion occurs in this house (all of our bedrooms are on the second floor) and the intruder hits the foyer area, there will be five of us shooting a stupid fish in a barrel. Prolly all with their shotguns as we have trained but maybe one or two of us with their .45 or .357.

Brian Pfleuger
August 20, 2008, 07:43 PM
Seems there is a clear distinction about location in this regard, that folks in rural areas and those far from a major city, don't seem to understand.


I understand. I just have trouble understanding why people stay there. I know there are jobs and family ties, people love the city life, etc. On the grand scale it seems not worth it to me.

To each his own.

Deaf Smith
August 20, 2008, 09:26 PM
In the most recent issue of Combat Handguns a man wrote about six creeps blocking his exit and sort of demanding he go with them to a 'party'. He had a Colt Trooper .357. In the story he says he cocked the .357 SLOW below the door and told the guy that the sound he heard was the most quietist sound a .357 makes. The thugs left him alone.

We do know for a fact that in many cases where the British and Indian soldiers bolted their rifles or fixed bayonets the crowds did melt away.

So maybe sometimes the rack of a shotgun might work.

mountainclmbr
August 20, 2008, 09:54 PM
My HD shotgun is in condition 1. Only safety click, but with 4 dogs probably all over the BG they would not even hear a slide rack. If the dogs have been eliminated, I don't want any warning before the real noise starts.

45_Shooter
August 20, 2008, 10:05 PM
If I feel the need, I leave an AR carbine next to the bed (beside the .45 that lives there). I leave the bolt open, safety off on a full 30 round mag. Anyone who's ever slapped a round home on an AR knows how loud and distinctive that is and I would hope that it's sound would be enough to be at least a warning. If he's smart enough to realize that that noise means even body armor isn't gonna save his butt, then so much the better.

I see no real downside to letting an intruder know, in a universal language that there is an armed homeowner nearby, and offering a chance to escape uninjured. Only thing I could see is if an intruder was there for the sole purpose of harming an inhabitant; you would be giving up your location. I think that scenario is pretty rare and not really worth worrying about for most people.

Spade Cooley
August 20, 2008, 10:17 PM
I can remember one incident where it worked but I'm not sure if anyone filled their pants. We as LEOS were doing a search between houses in a dangerous neighborhood. There were 4 men in an adjoining yard playing cards and badmouthing us as we moved through. My partner racked his shotgun and all of them ran into the house. They were doing a lot of trash talking before the shotgun was racked. The shotgun would always get my attention, either racked or unracked.

Dwight55
August 20, 2008, 10:18 PM
Personally, . . . I have a 7 shot, semi auto shotgun, . . . loaded 4,4,4,00,00,slug,slug.

IF, . . . all I had was a 3 shot 870, . . . racking it takes me down to a pump action double barrell, . . . nahhhhhhh!

Racking it also gives away the fact that I know what is happening, . . . where I am, . . . and how I am armed.

I'd much rather it was all a surprize to them.

May God bless,
Dwight

mountainclmbr
August 20, 2008, 10:29 PM
I always have a CCW gun, but shotgun is loaded 7 rounds Slug, Slug, 00 buck for the rest. Loaded condition 1. Dogs will do all the early warning necessary.

Nnobby45
August 20, 2008, 11:02 PM
But more to the point, would the attackers you mention be scared away
when you simply rack the pump on your shotgun?

I think the point is that you aren't going to make it to your shotgun before your wife or kids have a gun to their head.

Wow, unless your talking about the Nazi SS, I'm not sure where this kind of thing happens. At least not as the normal MO.

Try Googling crime, Republic of South Africa. To include carjackings where the murder rate for the driver is 75%, and gang rape of all female occupants, with little concern for age, is closer to 100%. And where newspapers are forbidden by law to report such violent crime incidents.
The reason I suspect RSA is because of the ensuing rape in front of the rest of the family, which is a trademark for home invasions there.

In the cases I'm familiar with, the criminals were foiled when an intended victim produced a pistol instantly and didn't hesitate.

I would hope that's not happening here, but given the easy access to our country by foreign criminals, one never knows.

For the rest of us, the crimminals may be less sophisticated, but capable of entring our homes just as fast and catching us off guard.

Latest Crime MO in Latin America is to kidnap a selected target off the street and force them to access their life's savings accounts and x-fer funds into kidnappers account from his laptop. Survival rate for victims: About zero--no witnesses.

But that's in Latin America--no worries that it will find it's way here.

I think advise to have your weapon on you at all times is the best course, with access to a shotgun where circumstances permit.

We'll talk about terrorists, who haven't really raised their head here yet, some other time.

Sorry to get a little off track, but I don't see the shotgun as a solution to most of the aforementioned problems, which more often get solved (if at all) with pistols and lack of dithering.

JAYBIRD78
August 21, 2008, 05:54 AM
1 Tape recording of spastic poodle.

2 Back up with recording of racking shotgun.

3 Triple threat recording of Zulu war dance.....very scary.

:p:p:p

Keltyke
August 21, 2008, 06:43 AM
Wow, unless your talking about the Nazi SS, I'm not sure where this kind of thing happens. At least not as the normal MO.

What I'm about to say applies to the area I live in. Some of you who live in these war zones y'all describe in big cities may have different experiences.

Right, peetza. Your normal burglar is not a fearless, trigger-happy, Uzi-toting messenger of death. In fact, most burglaries are committed unarmed because using a weapon carries a much longer jail sentence. Most burglars like to break in when the occupants are NOT at home, and will often leave quickly if they hear human sounds from within.

Home invasion is a different story - however, most home invasions are not well planned and many are a spur-of-the-moment idea. They're usually committed when there's only one occupant in the house, usually female. Rape is attempted (usually fails if the female struggles a lot) or done, and a robbery is committed. Sometimes an elderly man is beaten. I know these things are not to be taken lightly, but it proves your average BG is a bully and a coward and will NOT attack someone they think might be able to fight back. They want it quick and easy. Children are almost never targeted. Men are seldom targeted. The BG is often a neighbor, lives in the area, or is known to the victim.

Frankly, if I lived in an area where I thought the described scenario could happen, I'd have a 10' razor wire/electrified fence around my property, carry some major shoot power constantly, and hire some professional guards. Alternatively, I'd move. Geez, some of these places must be real jungles. Why do you live there?

Now, as to the deterrent of a shotgun being pumped or a slide being racked - it sure is! I don't know about most of you macho tough guys, but if I'm in someone's house at night, and I hear a pump or slide being racked, I'm sure as heck gonna stop in my tracks, at least until I find out just where that thing is pointed. I'm probably gonna realize I'm outgunned and the simple smash and grab I was going to pull ain't gonna work. At that point, I'm outta there! If I look down and see a red dot on my chest, I'm gonna try and look as harmless as possible.

As to someone breaking in and doing all that stuff before you even have time to catch your breath - only real pros with commando, ninja, or SWAT-type training can pull that off. Next thing you know, the BGs will be using flash-bang grenades.

A loud dog, good alarm system, being alert, and a PD weapon of choice will take care of about 99.8% of what might happen. Let's face it, if the BG is a REAL PRO, you're beaten before you start, because you are NOT a REAL PRO. All you can do in that case is go down shooting.

Keltyke
August 21, 2008, 06:59 AM
Nnooby45,

But that's in Latin America--no worries that it will find it's way here.

I do realize the described scenario is the norm in some countries. I'm like peetza, why does someone live in a place like that? I'd find the means and funds to get out somehow!

I don't know where "here" is for you, but for me - American by birth, Southern by choice. Mess like that hasn't generally found its way here yet, but it's coming if someone doesn't get a handle on things here in the US.

That's why the ranks of gun owners/carriers are increasing. That's why you see major lobbying campaigns launched to relax gun ownership/carry regulations. That's why almost every CWP class in SC is filled. There are literally hundreds of classes in my area alone. Cops can't be everywhere, and the government isn't generally interested in the single person. It's up to us.

B.A.
August 21, 2008, 08:20 AM
Wildebees,

"We've been attacked. We won. We are the exemptions to the rule."

Sorry to hear you had to go through that. A good friend of mine and his family got burgled, beaten and raped during a long and horrible night a few years ago in Joburg. Luckily they all survived. Fences, watchmen, alarms, grills, locks etc were of no help. No dogs, no guns.
Up here, the average criminals are a little less organised and the crime level is nowhere near as high. I have no statistics to show it, but I have hardly ever heard of a break-in here where there wasn't at least one inside man. A shotgun, rifles and/or handguns in a house are more an incentive to try a break-in than a deterrent. As others said, a good dog goes a long way, but its far from a guarantee. After some unmentionables poisoned our little Buddy late last year, we got another one and he's doing alright, so far. We also try to take good care of our house staff (they have been with us for many years) and make sure we stay friendly and close with the neighbors.

Back on topic: I do believe there may be something to the racking theory under some circumstances against some criminals, but I certainly wouldn't rely on it.

BA

Saab1911
August 21, 2008, 08:27 AM
You guys in Africa don't mess around do you? Kids with AK-47s. Genocide.
And marauding bands of commandos. :eek: :eek: :eek:

mavracer
August 21, 2008, 08:44 AM
my personal therory is that while the sound of me racking the first round of buckshot may be enough to have him turn tail,it may not therefore it's a good thing I'm holding a loaded shotgun instead of a tape recorder.

B.A.
August 21, 2008, 08:46 AM
Not to mention bureaucracy, tropical weather, corruption, great fishing, moving the goal posts, horrendous traffic, opportunities, drunk driving, beautiful scenery, poverty, astonishing wildlife and political turmoil. It seldom gets boring down here...:)

BA

zxcvbob
August 21, 2008, 08:58 AM
I understand. I just have trouble understanding why people stay there. I know there are jobs and family ties, people love the city life, etc. On the grand scale it seems not worth it to me.


If you live in South Africa, where are you gonna go?

ragwd
August 21, 2008, 11:28 AM
The sound of my mossberg 500 is distinctive. But IMHO racking to scare is like a threat and I don't believe in threats, it tips off your intentions. If you have picked up your shot gun, are you still indecisive on what you will do? If you were about to brawl would you tell the guy, "I am going to break your jaw"? That just giving them a chance, in a combative situation I don't believe in giving chances. What if in racking to scare the one time in fifty the guy turns and starts shooting at the sound. I like the sound of a racking shotgun as much as anyone else but isn't it just giving away your position and intention.

Stagger Lee
August 21, 2008, 12:11 PM
The sound or a racking shotgun tells an aggressor that you're so far behind the curve that you only just then decided that the gun should actually be loaded. :rolleyes:

45Marlin carbine
August 21, 2008, 12:24 PM
I suppose that could be argued - that said I have SXS 12ga mag leaned in near corner of my bed, a Makarov in spare holster velcroed to bedpost and my Camp .45acp w/10 rd mag hanging on wall hook near shotgun. the only sounds they'll hear is me telling them - I have a pistol pointed your way - then it fireing.

fjk1911
August 21, 2008, 12:35 PM
+1 Stagger Lee. My point zackly.

David Armstrong
August 21, 2008, 12:48 PM
I know it's good marketing, but following the "logic" we've all been fed too many times to count, no one needs to buy any more shotguns. All
we need are recordings of the pump action shotguns being racked.

Bad logic. First, most BGs do not want to engage an armed opponent. Thus, racking the shotgun does serve notice that the person is armed, which does then lead to exit on the part of the BG in many cases. So let's not try to put the "racking shotgun" into a mythological category. Second, many people are mistaken in the effectiveness of the shotgun, and are under the impression that a single round will cover a whole room. So agaion, we get a certain percentage of those who migh tstay with a handgun on the scene who will flee from the shotgun. And finally, of course, there is that small number who will continue on. For them, the real shotgun (or some other weapon) is needed. So what is your goal? If it is to try to avoid a gunfight and convince the BG to go someplace else, racking is actually a rather good technique.

fjk1911
August 21, 2008, 12:59 PM
Reminds me of Archie Bunker's taped recording of a barking dog in lieu of a real security system...

Brian Pfleuger
August 21, 2008, 01:05 PM
If you live in South Africa, where are you gonna go?

That falls under "etc.":D


All though I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time somebody came from S. Africa to America.

Like I said, to each his own.

ANY city is no place I want to live. My town now has about 3500 people within a 5 mile radius and that about 3497 too many in my opinion.

Brian Pfleuger
August 21, 2008, 01:07 PM
Thus, racking the shotgun does serve notice that the person is armed, which does then lead to exit on the part of the BG in many cases.


I'm not saying I doubt you but have you ever actually KNOWN this to work? I've never seen or heard of it outside of Hollywood and internet lore.

hamster
August 21, 2008, 02:21 PM
it's an intimidating sound, for sure. so you pump it, yell "stop", and if the bad guy doesn't put his hands up, or if he makes a sudden move, you'd better be prepared to pull the trigger. if he freezes, even better, you didnt' have to take a life.

springmom
August 21, 2008, 02:33 PM
Wildebees' post is a reminder of something I've read from Jeff White any number of times...that, despite all the time we spend worrying about being armed 24/7/365, most of us live in what is the safest country in the world, with the lowest possibility of personal violence. Even where I live, where home invasions are dismayingly common, they are NOTHING like what he describes.

It does give you a reason to be thankful to be where you are, if you're here.

For those of you who are THERE, I cannot imagine what you go through, and I wish you all the best. Wow. I have to think I'd have my KIDS packing 24/7/365, not to mention every adult in the house. And from what you say, that wouldn't necessarily do either.

Springmom

Wildebees
August 21, 2008, 02:34 PM
But more to the point, would the attackers you mention be scared away
when you simply rack the pump on your shotgun?

This is Pretoria, South Africa. He is a trained terrorist, you are a law abiding citizen. They come into your home, having the initiative. The AK's or 9mm's are cocked and aimed at you or your kids or your wife. Merely racking your pump shall have no intimidating result. If you do not shoot as a first action, they shall.

No. there is no reason for dramatics. Only immediate and hard and violent action.

The perpetrators, being who they are and from which principle they operate expects immediate surrender or an equal play of showmanship. They do not expect a hard and immediate counter attack. That you can only do if you are armed and only need to pull the trigger. My Winchester Defender is loaded with slugs and I can shoot it off the hip where I want to at 6-10 m. My double action revolver is in the small of my back and I need to only pull the trigger, no cocking and saying "OK boy, put you AK down and let me straighten you out."

Then, on top of this, when the police come to investigate the crime after you have shot and killed the main threat, they charge you with murder and lock you up until your innocence is proved. No kidding.

Wildebees
August 21, 2008, 02:54 PM
"We also try to take good care of our house staff (they have been with us for many years) and make sure we stay friendly and close with the neighbors".

Good, that; but in each instance where my friends were killed in what was Rhodesia, and here now in South Africa, it was the loyal house staff that either willingly or under threat of death supplied ALL the information. Who is the insider in any event?

That is the reason in SA households do not have house staff anymore.

I lived in Nairobi for a year and was robbed at gunpoint in my rented property. My "security guard" just happened to suddenly ask for leave for the weekend...

Wildebees
August 21, 2008, 03:04 PM
"...that, despite all the time we spend worrying about being armed 24/7/365, most of us live in what is the safest country in the world, with the lowest possibility of personal violence...."

Why does the USA have such a safe society? Why did South Africa used to have an even safer society?

Because of the love of guns, the general ownership, and the knowledge and skill of how to use them.

We are being disarmed at the moment with new and silly gun laws. Some of us still have our guns and go through the most unthinkable rigmarole to keep them licenced and in our posession. You live in a democratic country, we do not. Stick to your guns in every sense of the term.

Steamboatsig
August 21, 2008, 03:10 PM
I trained my dog to bark like the sound of my Remington 870 being racked.

Saab1911
August 21, 2008, 03:31 PM
Wildebees' post is a reminder of something I've read from Jeff White any number of times...that, despite all the time we spend worrying about being armed 24/7/365, most of us live in what is the safest country in the world, with the lowest possibility of personal violence. Even where I live, where home invasions are dismayingly common, they are NOTHING like what he describes.


that is an incorrect statement. Look at Japan, Canada and of the Western
European Countries, and so on.

The U.S. has one of the highest incidence of violent crime in the industrialized
world.

Brian Pfleuger
August 21, 2008, 03:45 PM
The U.S. has one of the highest incidence of violent crime in the industrialized world.

True but mostly very localized. For instance, the closest large city to me (Syracuse, NY) has maybe 3 murders a month, the area that I live, only 30 miles or so away, has MAYBE 3-5 in 15 years within a 20 mile radius. I wonder what the crime rate is in America if you take away the numbers from cities with populations over 1 million.


I think the reason those other countries have lower rates in because guns are essentially non-existent to good and evil folk.

Keltyke
August 21, 2008, 04:09 PM
The U.S. has one of the highest incidence of violent crime in the industrialized world.

That statement has little value without qualification. You need to add the words "per capita, per square mile", and see what statistics say then.

As has been mentioned, large, densely populated city areas are quite different from rural or farmland.

Shawn Dodson
August 21, 2008, 05:10 PM
The claim assumes the badguy is in his right mind. He may be completely irrational.

He may be drunk, drugged, psychotic or any combination and not act like a "normal" person.

Don't fall into the trap of believing the badguy has the mental capacity to rationalize.

Recon7
August 21, 2008, 05:16 PM
Instant laxative, take your laptop into the bathroom and open link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoN2jTURi_k

Stevie-Ray
August 21, 2008, 05:21 PM
Well, as far as murder goes the US of A ranks 24th in the world per capita. South Africa ranks 2nd behind only Colombia. (Not surprising this was 1st) I spent some vacation time in Venezuela quite a while ago, and hated it, as it scared the crap out of me. I also wasn't surprised it was ranked 4th. 3rd wasn't much of a surprise either, as I've always heard to stay in the resort areas of Jamaica if you want to keep your skin. We ventured as far as Ferngully while we were in Jamaica, but we were with an entire group and were whisked back to Ocho Rios, post haste. A trip to Kingston to "see how the people live, mon" as the cab drivers would like from every tourist, is completely out of the question. Biggest surprise for me? Ireland is ranked 55th which is 11 spots better than Canada.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

Glenn E. Meyer
August 21, 2008, 05:25 PM
Not to thread hijack but that happened to us in Jamica. We went to the central tourist market and started to wander out to see the real people and a nice policeman grabbed us and shooed us back to safety.

springmom
August 21, 2008, 06:09 PM
The U.S. has one of the highest incidence of violent crime in the industrialized world.
That statement has little value without qualification. You need to add the words "per capita, per square mile", and see what statistics say then.

As has been mentioned, large, densely populated city areas are quite different from rural or farmland.
Today 03:45 PM

Well, as far as murder goes the US of A ranks 24th in the world per capita. South Africa ranks 2nd behind only Colombia. (Not surprising this was 1st) I spent some vacation time in Venezuela quite a while ago, and hated it, as it scared the crap out of me. I also wasn't surprised it was ranked 4th. 3rd wasn't much of a surprise either, as I've always heard to stay in the resort areas of Jamaica if you want to keep your skin. We ventured as far as Ferngully while we were in Jamaica, but we were with an entire group and were whisked back to Ocho Rios, post haste. A trip to Kingston to "see how the people live, mon" as the cab drivers would like from every tourist, is completely out of the question. Biggest surprise for me? Ireland is ranked 55th which is 11 spots better than Canada.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita

Thanks to those who tightened up the loose verbiage about "safest" and "most violence."

The fact is, most of us....the VAST majority of us....will live our lives without ever being touched by violent crime personally. My own experience 2 years ago when my son was attacked, puts me out of the statistical bell curve on this (not to mention him of course :rolleyes:) We *feel* like it's more, because we watch the news and it seems an ever present threat. Certainly does down here.

But in comparison to Wildebees' life? Nah. I'll take mine, Houston crime or no Houston crime, thanks. My son lived through his attack. His girlfriend was untouched and only told to leave "or else". Would that have happened in South Africa, or Colombia, or Venezuela, or, heck, part of the UK? We live pretty well, and it's worth remembering once in awhile.

Springmom

B.A.
August 22, 2008, 03:21 AM
"Good, that; but in each instance where my friends were killed in what was Rhodesia, and here now in South Africa, it was the loyal house staff that either willingly or under threat of death supplied ALL the information. Who is the insider in any event?"

Sorry, maybe I didnt express myself clearly. The reason I said that we try to take care of the staff as best we can is precisely because of what you are saying. The insider is the staff, as you point out, either willingly or under threat. But if you treat them well and they know they have a steady income, benefits and housing, at least you minimise the risk of them doing it willingly. And in Tanzania, we have neither tsotsis nor "war veterans" to worry about.

The alternative would be not to have any house staff at all, and I have been here much too long for that. The thought of doing dishes, cooking, laundry, babysitting, gardening, cleaning etc doesn't appeal to me one little bit.

"Well, as far as murder goes the US of A ranks 24th in the world per capita. South Africa ranks 2nd behind only Colombia."

Regarding crime capitals, I would not put all my faith in statistics. The figures for the western world (and possibly including SA and Colombia) may be more or less accurate, but how do you make even an approximation of the prevalence of crime in places like the Sudan, Zimbabwe or the Congo?

That NationMaster site had another chart that shows the USA in 8th place for murder with fire arms (to keep this fire arms related) and SA and Colombia trade places at the top:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita

B.A.

David Armstrong
August 22, 2008, 10:57 AM
I'm not saying I doubt you but have you ever actually KNOWN this to work? I've never seen or heard of it outside of Hollywood and internet lore.
Yes, I have known it to work. I've seen it myself as a LEO, and I've taken a number of reports where the homeowner said the BG ran off when they realized the homeowner had a gun.

garryc
August 22, 2008, 11:28 AM
I've got two personal experience stories about this subject.

When I was in the Navy in Guam I did a TDY to the Joint Armed Forces Police. This was during the Iranian Crisis. We had a Marine amphibious force pull into harbor. The force had been in the Indian Ocean or on Diego Garcia for more than three months. They laid in for refuel and supplies. Around 5000 marines got their first shore liberty in three months. It was a real mess.

We got called to a bar fight just off base. We went in to break it up. Two sailors in a bar full of Marines. It got ugly and I got my leg cut with a butterfly knife. My partner racked the shotgun, all at once it was as quiet and cooperative as a country church.


Some 10 or so years ago I was on perimeter duty at the prison. A young black kid hit the fence. When I arrived he was just throwing a blanket over the razor wire coils on the outside fence. I got out of the vehicle with the 12 gauge and ordered him to the ground several times. He looked right at me and had to see the shotgun. When he grabbed the blanket to climb I racked a round in. That kid hit the ground so hard that I thought he was trying to crawl into it. He starred at me frozen like a stone until responders got him cuffed.

Denny Hansen
August 22, 2008, 12:04 PM
Like David Armstrong, I have seen it work when I was a LEO. On the other hand, I have seen it have absolutely zero effect on some hard bad guys.

We're all "reasonable people" here and therefore would think twice if we heard a shotgun being racked. However, the fact that you need to confront someone with a shotgun may lead one to believe that the other person is not reasonable.

Denny

Wildebees
August 22, 2008, 12:28 PM
Of course. Civilised, uniformed, even though slightly rowdy and unruly enlisted men used to disciplne were the threat. That clackity-clack then was a sound of authority to frustrated, but still civilised men.

The unruly crowd was not on a planned, considered, tactical plan, the action being executed by four armed terrorists, driven and inspired by a government and police force that not only allows criminal action but whose very actions are intent on protecting them.

Your crowd had not carefully gathered information about your weak spots for weeks, and they had not considered which is the best time to strike your house in order to obtain and maintain the initiative against the considered odds. They were not murderers intent on murder. So they were intimidated by the metallic clackity-clack as any thinking, law abiding, logical man would.

The considered and executed house break murderer with the pre-meditated plan to murder and to shed blood and to terrorise shall not be intimidated. He has come to intimidate.

Let's say there were two shotguns in the unruly crowd, and say THESE were racked and aimed at your unloaded shotgun carrier and others, and say that you KNEW that this same gang and many like them have been doing this with impunity for 14 years now, AND shooting the first threatening move - shall you just rack your shotgun as well and stand and think: "well my clackity-clack was louder than his clackity-clack, so he shall put his hands up and beg you to please not shoot?

No sir. Not in this country where I live. And not even if in your situations the perpetrators had loaded guns and enjoyed bloodshedding and humiliating and killing.

Be glad that you still have a government and law enforcement agencies that do not allow criminals a free hand. Be glad that law and order still exists. Please keep a government in the White House that keeps your country under civilised control otherwise your children shall live in a future USA where your guns shall be confiscated, or the situation shall be made impossible to own and keep and bear your firearm.

When that happens, the Africa situation shall come into play. With savages filled with bloodlust that shall savagely murder and maim and rape. Terrorists do not only wear beards and frocks and hijack aeroplanes. In this country it is a kind of human being who simultaneously believes that raping young girls younger than three years old shall cure his Aids. It happens regularly and is spread as gospel.

Like a Cape Buffalo intent on killing you, only a bullet in the brain shall prevent him from shooting first.

Glenn E. Meyer
August 22, 2008, 12:32 PM
The problem I have with some of the incidents described is that aren't you behind the reactionary gap when actually faced with your opponent.

It is a situation where you contemplate lethal force - knives are out. So you have to rack if you want to shoot? Slow? Could you mess up the rack - not that I would or any of us.

It would seem to me that the second I'm holding the gun because I need it, I'm racking then and there. If the sound helps - it's plus.

However, do I get the feeling that some are waiting to rack so that they can explicitly engage in some dominance inducing behavior as compared to racking when they need the gun. I understand the technical reasons for chamber empty but being me, academic, I'm interested in a deliberate display.

RockyMtnTactical
August 22, 2008, 12:35 PM
I wouldn't count on any "racking" sounds to save your life. I would hope that the sound of the blast would scare off the criminal, but that's only if I miss... and hopefully I don't miss... :D

Wildebees
August 22, 2008, 12:43 PM
Dear Doc,

I see you have pulled back your hammer and your fourty-four is pointing at my belly. Now I also know that last week you did the same thing to that youngster who started to cry, and then you smiled and shot him. Mind that muzzle, sir... and I know that two days before that you played this game with that girl and then forced yourself onto her and then you shot her through the temples.. now don't get excited now, we are civilised citizens here debating a little matter of ethics... And I was told that for a few years now... Why are you smiling sir?...

OK, tell you what - I am going to draw my Navy now, and I am going to yank the hammer back real hard; it is going to go CLICK!!! Now when you hear that fearsome sound you must know that I just may mean business here! Understand? Understand?

Wildebees
August 22, 2008, 12:50 PM
"This nasty event seemed to have touched it off here a year ago, broad daylight...

As a police officer approached the home of the Petit family in Cheshire, Conn., on the morning of July 23, 2007, two men ran from the scene as flames poured out of the house. They were quickly apprehended. When officers then returned to the house they found Dr. William A. Petit Jr., 50; who had been severely beaten, and the bodies of his wife, Jennifer Hawke-Petit, 48; and their daughters, Hayley, 17, and Michaela, 11. The police said that the victims were were tied up in separate rooms, and that Ms. Hawke-Petit and one of the daughters were sexually assaulted before the house was set on fire.

The shock the killings caused in the bucolic community was amplified by the prominence of the victims: Dr. Petit is a well-known endocrinologist and his wife had been active in fundraising for local causes. And word that the two suspects arrested at the scene were both convicted felons out on parole led to new questions being raised about the state's methods of tracking parolees".

Scattergun Bob
August 22, 2008, 03:25 PM
I have been at both ends of a scattergun being charged into battery. Each and every time it has drawn MY attention. Does it cause uneasiness, does it produce fear, does it stop action, each door way to chaos is different.

As a advertising tool to project passive force it is a good one. If it dissuades your enemy from an attack it is a great one. If it does nothing you have lost nothing.
Those who use the noise issue as a tactical disadvantage need to rethink. If you are in motion, calling the calvary, directing your family you are already giving evidence of your location. IT IS AN ANONCEMENT OF I AM HERE AND DON'T COME TO THIS AREA. These are all forms of passive defensive force and are to your advantage if it refocuses a predator to move in a different direction.

If in fact these passive forms of defense including "racking" do not work and this predator continues his course toward you, then you have picked the right weapon for the job.

As Glenn put so well, I am not suggesting that charging your scattergun is a separate part of the force continuum, it simply is the method of getting you scattergun into battery, if that works as a deterrent, so much the better.

Good Luck & Be safe

Brian Pfleuger
August 22, 2008, 03:29 PM
Yes, I have known it to work. I've seen it myself as a LEO, and I've taken a number of reports where the homeowner said the BG ran off when they realized the homeowner had a gun.

Alright then, I'll file it under "Useful if the Situation Presents Itself"

And under the second mental category of "True Internet Myths I Never Thought I'd Believe":D

Yellowfin
August 22, 2008, 04:08 PM
Racking of a lever action rifle is pretty nice as well, but I'm not going to be too picky as to which I pick up first between pistols, rifles, and shotguns--whatever I can grab first will do the job.

FLA2760
August 22, 2008, 04:33 PM
Springmom wrote,"The fact is, most of us....the VAST majority of us....will live our lives without ever being touched by violent crime personally. My own experience 2 years ago when my son was attacked, puts me out of the statistical bell curve on this (not to mention him of course ) We *feel* like it's more, because we watch the news and it seems an ever present threat. Certainly does down here".
+1 to that. I too am out of the curve. When I lived in NYC I was robbed at gunpoint 3 times. This happened when I was much younger 18-19. Twice at a gas station I worked at while in college and once at a bodega in Manhattan while I was a customer. Funny how the gun ban in NYC did not have any effect on bad guys getting guns. I wanted to buy a gun when I turned 21 and the permit requirements just to purchase one were ridiculous. I now live in Florida.:D

Nnobby45
August 22, 2008, 05:49 PM
[QUOTE]Back on topic: I do believe there may be something to the racking theory under some circumstances against some criminals, but I certainly wouldn't rely on it.

BA

We're kicking this topic around as if there was one answer.

No way of knowing how Bubba is going to react to racking a shotgun anymore than we can tell how Saab1911 is going to react to Bubba.

The mere fact that one would even breach the subject of getting out of bed at 2AM and reaching for his tape recorder------(I'm sorry, I had to quit laughing, but now I'm back). Let me get a grip here.

Maybe if I'm Bubba and his friends, I run away, or maybe I start throwing lead your way, now that you've been kind enough to divulge your position.

But it's not just Bubba the burglar anymore. The home invasion scenario is much different, and tends to be more of a "dynamic entry", with crimminals having learned from the Police how to surprise people and take charge quickly while the family is still up and together.

The sophistication and planning displayed by the crimminals seems to be equal to (or better) than the sophistication of the victims (security wise) and to their wealth and social status--- which attracts the crimminals in the first place.

That's not to say there aren't bumbling amateurs, but I don't think they're any less dangerous.



Ah, Jeez---tape recorder with racking shotgun.:D:):rolleyes::cool:

Archie
August 23, 2008, 11:14 AM
I live in the United States, Southern (People's Democratic Socialist Republic of) California to be exact. In the U. S., there are two basic groups of criminals; those who are more or less rational and those who are - by dint of narcotics use, mental defect or some combination thereof - NOT rational.

The rational ones typically do not wish to engage any resistance. They certainly do not want to engage armed resistance. The irrational ones are typically more hazardous than dangerous, but certainly not harmless.

A demonstration of armed resistance - that sound of a shotgun being racked - will normally dissuade the rational sorts. However, the irrational ones are so intent on their goal (for example, their next narcotics 'fix') they will not be deterred. In desparation, death is preferable to doing without. Various forms of mental instability are just as bad.

One never knows who one will encounter. That sound the back yard may be some silly kid trying to steal something of minor value - or just retrieving a ball kicked over the fence - or a pathological serial killer. Relying on a 'threatening sound' is in my estimation, rather ill advised.

In fact, the U. S. does have the equivilent of terrorists these days. Home invasion robberies are becoming more common all the time. They are still rather rare, and limited to higher value targets, but they are growing in number and venue. Calling the police - if possible - will result in the police being on scene as quickly as they can. However, police are limited in number and ability to move from place to place. Seven to ten minutes is a very long time when dealing with armed assailants who want to rape and or kill one's wife, daughter, dog and one's self. In my (not so humble) opinion, they only defense is awareness and the ability to immediately dispense deadly force at need.

David Armstrong
August 23, 2008, 01:21 PM
As a advertising tool to project passive force it is a good one. If it dissuades your enemy from an attack it is a great one. If it does nothing you have lost nothing.
Those who use the noise issue as a tactical disadvantage need to rethink. If you are in motion, calling the calvary, directing your family you are already giving evidence of your location. IT IS AN ANONCEMENT OF I AM HERE AND DON'T COME TO THIS AREA. These are all forms of passive defensive force and are to your advantage if it refocuses a predator to move in a different direction.
Good summary. Unless you are trying to be stealthy it doesn't cost you anything. Lots of potential for upside, little or no for downside.

BTW, Wildebees---BSAP, Bulawayo, 1976-1978.

Brian Pfleuger
August 23, 2008, 01:24 PM
Ah, Jeez---tape recorder with racking shotgun.

Hey, a movie and some firecrackers worked in "Home Alone".:D

Nnobby45
August 23, 2008, 05:37 PM
In the U. S., there are two basic groups of criminals; those who are more or less rational and those who are - by dint of narcotics use, mental defect or some combination thereof - NOT rational.


Good for you for being the first to point that out.

Here we're into 3 pages of posts discussing dangerous threats as though they're all rational people who will react to certain stimuli in a rational manner.:cool:

ikesdad
August 24, 2008, 12:41 AM
Got the "Make My Day Law" here in Colorado. Somebody is in your house and you fear harm, you know what to do. If I rack a scattergun, I better be ready to pull the trigger. Threats dont work. I have no problem making sure some scumbag has broken into his last house.

workinwifdakids
August 24, 2008, 02:03 PM
This thread began on the premise of a Straw Man fallacy - that is, you grossly mischaracterize an argument that few if any ever make, and then in defeating that mischaracterized and weakened argument, you claim victory after never having dealt with the issue at all.

Thus, I'm surprised it lasted beyond the first post.

Law enforcement officers realize the value - IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES - of racking the shotgun, in the same way as any LEO has used the 'shaking' sound (rock in a can sound) in some varieties of pepper spray. I've never heard a single human being ever utter the idea that simply racking a shotgun will cause immediate and universal compliance. Someone said that racking a shotgun won't ensure compliance if your home is targeted by a squad of - what? - mafia hitmen? Well, no kidding! Is there a point to this?

Saab1911
August 24, 2008, 03:17 PM
This thread began on the premise of a Straw Man fallacy - that is, you grossly mischaracterize an argument that few if any ever make, and then in defeating that mischaracterized and weakened argument, you claim victory after never having dealt with the issue at all.

Thus, I'm surprised it lasted beyond the first post.

Law enforcement officers realize the value - IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES - of racking the shotgun, in the same way as any LEO has used the 'shaking' sound (rock in a can sound) in some varieties of pepper spray. I've never heard a single human being ever utter the idea that simply racking a shotgun will cause immediate and universal compliance. Someone said that racking a shotgun won't ensure compliance if your home is targeted by a squad of - what? - mafia hitmen? Well, no kidding! Is there a point to this?


If it doesn't work most of the time, then the mechanism is useless to me for
home defense.

I'd rather have a high powered rifle which will be more effective at stopping
the bad guy.

PT111
August 24, 2008, 03:47 PM
If you don't have one in the chamber then rack the slide and if that doesn't work then do it again after you have pulled the trigger. :D What do you mean you didn't have one in the chamber to start with. :eek:

For me the thought of staring down the barrel of a 12 ga double barrel shotgun is much more fearsome than any other gun I can think of. :)

Brian Pfleuger
August 24, 2008, 11:35 PM
If it doesn't work most of the time, then the mechanism is useless to me for home defense.

Jae,

It only works reliably if you do it one handed like at the end of Terminator 2.
You also have to have one of those guns they use in the movies when they have a really long foot chase type scene in a warehouse or something and the guy racks the gun about 6 times and never shoots but nothing ever comes out.

Anyway, the issue is a moot point for me since my gun makes a slamming bolt sound being that it's an 1187. I'll have to stick to scaring the BG with a 1900fps poly-tipped deer slug through the chest. I've advised my neighbor to reinforce the walls on my side of his house. :D:rolleyes:

geologist
August 24, 2008, 11:57 PM
My father, a WWII vet taught me to never give the other guy any warnings. If you have a weapon don't show it. If it comes to your life or his life just get it done.

Our bedroom is our safe room, I'd lock the door and load my 12 gauge pump as quickly as I could, chamber a round quietly and call the police on our cell phone.

Saab1911
August 25, 2008, 08:16 AM
My father, a WWII vet taught me to never give the other guy any warnings. If you have a weapon don't show it. If it comes to your life or his life just get it done.

Our bedroom is our safe room, I'd lock the door and load my 12 gauge pump as quickly as I could, chamber a round quietly and call the police on our cell phone.


I thought there was no crime in Canada. At least that's what the fat
anti-gun nut tells me. I'll never forgive that dude for insulting Charleston
Heston.

geologist
August 25, 2008, 10:33 AM
I thought there was no crime in Canada. At least that's what the fat
anti-gun nut tells me. I'll never forgive that dude for insulting Charleston
Heston.

Canada has higher violence and property crime rates than the US. Not many people realize this. It's a function of our hug-a thug court system, our lack of CCW and the generally low number of urban households with guns and residents with the will and skills to resist.

Burglers are much more willing to enter a home in Canada with the residents present than the US. Guess why?

BTW, I lived in Toronto for 10 years and EVERYONE I knew locked their doors.

Saab1911
August 25, 2008, 10:48 AM
Canada has higher violence and property crime rates than the US. Not many people realize this. It's a function of our hug-a thug court system, our lack of CCW and the generally low number of urban households with guns and residents with the will and skills to resist.

Burglers are much more willing to enter a home in Canada with the residents present than the US. Guess why?

BTW, I lived in Toronto for 10 years and EVERYONE I knew locked their doors.


No, you don't say. Michael Moore is dishonest? :eek:

I didn't know that about Canada, and all this time I thought there was
something in American water that made us so extraordinarily violent.

;)

alistaire
August 25, 2008, 12:25 PM
Why don't people just leave RSA and Zimbabwe? Because the HATE RSA campaigne was never shut down. So they can't go to many countries.

See http://www.defense-training.com/quips/quips.html

DWFan
August 26, 2008, 12:07 AM
Racking a shotgun as an attempt to intimidate an intruder? What crystal ball told you who or what you are facing? Yes, most burglars might cut and run at that sound; but what if that isn't what's in your house? How do you know that the sole intent of the invader isn't to kill you and your family? How do you know that instead of a guy who's in your house, instead of being a kid or someone looking for a quick way to fund a drug habit, isn't there instead to add to his count of murder victims and picked your place at random?
You don't know and can't know and any noise you might make only serves to tell your opponent exactly where you are. The only sound your invader should hear is the split second of roar from your weapon before the life leaves their body.

Derius_T
August 26, 2008, 06:31 AM
Wildebees wrote:

In the real world your house has been scouted and decided upon, your routine has been checked, your sleeping and waking patterns have been scrutinised, your dog been fed, they have been onto your property at least twice to check your systems.

Then they either feed your dog meat or poison it with Temic - it goes two steps and dies in silence, no suffering, Then when your family is watching TV and they hear someone is having a bath, they throw a garden chair through the window, rush in and put a gun to your daughter's head and one aimed at you before you have gone to your gun safe to get the short pumpgun, and even if you have it in your hands he crowds your kid and the other one whips your wife in the mouth with his Z88 9mm. They are hard and trained and fearless and in control, not you. They put the gun against your head and rapes your wife and daughter in front of you, then take the mobile phones, your watch, the pump gun, your vehicle keys and execute you from behind after you have cried and begged for your life. It happens daily in my city;

Wow, where the hell do you live, kuwait? :rolleyes:

Seriously dude, you either watch too many movies, live in a war zone, or are in witness protection.

I'd say that the things you wrote about are the extreme .01% most drastic, unrealistic scenarios possible. Certainly not the norm for your average home invader.....:rolleyes:

geologist
August 26, 2008, 06:41 AM
Wow, where the hell do you live, kuwait?

Seriously dude, you either watch too many movies, live in a war zone, or are in witness protection.

I'd say that the things you wrote about are the extreme .01% most drastic, unrealistic scenarios possible. Certainly not the norm for your average home invader.....
__________________


Derius, Wildbees is posting from South Africa where they have some of the worst violent crime problems in the world.

There are countries where rape is considered either a medical treatment or a sport. Let's be thankfull that the US and Canada are not on that list.

Saab1911
August 26, 2008, 09:29 AM
Wow, where the hell do you live, kuwait?


I think you have Kuwait confused with Iraq.


Racking a shotgun as an attempt to intimidate an intruder? What crystal ball told you who or what you are facing? Yes, most burglars might cut and run at that sound; but what if that isn't what's in your house? How do you know that the sole intent of the invader isn't to kill you and your family? How do you know that instead of a guy who's in your house, instead of being a kid or someone looking for a quick way to fund a drug habit, isn't there instead to add to his count of murder victims and picked your place at random?
You don't know and can't know and any noise you might make only serves to tell your opponent exactly where you are. The only sound your invader should hear is the split second of roar from your weapon before the life leaves their body.


Amen brother. Amen. I was just sick of people parroting this marketing bull-@@@@.

Why do people think that crack-heads think logically? And why do people think
everybody knows the sound of a shotgun being racked or how effective a shotgun
weapon can be at close range?

There are just too many assumptions, and I would still rather have a 22lr pistol on
which I am trained than a shotgun which I don't know much about other than how
to rack it.

I think this thread has beaten the dead horse long enough.

David Armstrong
August 26, 2008, 10:51 AM
You don't know and can't know and any noise you might make only serves to tell your opponent exactly where you are.
No. It also serves to let that opponent know that you are armed. Again, as mentioned earlier, that tends to solve almost all of the situations most of us are going to encounter with a minimum of violence, bloodshed, and danger. I would suggest that the instances of armed attackers willing to get into a gunfight just so they can add to their murder victim count is so rare as to be a complete non-issue for most of us.
I'd say that the things you wrote about are the extreme .01% most drastic, unrealistic scenarios possible. Certainly not the norm for your average home invader.....
Exactly. Not the norm around here. And that is important. Wildebees lives in an area where violence like that while not the norm is certainly common. And yes, there are other parts of the world where good, decent citizens need to be ready to fight determined attackers on a regular basis. The USA is not one of those, thank goodness.

Brian Pfleuger
August 26, 2008, 11:30 AM
And why do people think everybody knows the sound of a shotgun being racked...

I seriously wonder about that myself. Think of that other thread about the guy that shot the 15 year old trying to break into his house. Would that kid have known the sound of a pump shotgun? Who knows. I would guess that a large portion of BG's won't know or recognize the sound. However, there probably are cases where ANY sound indicating home owner awareness will scare them off.
It was said above that at least one person has personally seen it work so I'm putting it under "What the hell, I'll give it a try if I've got nothing to lose."

1911_freak
August 26, 2008, 11:55 AM
chased off by a poodle? those big standard poodles are FIERCE! :eek:

Glenn E. Meyer
August 26, 2008, 02:16 PM
So P'zilla are you going to wait to rack the gun for the correct acoustically tactical moment or display it to the BG and then rack? Or rack as it first comes into your hands as you perceive a threat?
:confused:

That's the issue.

Saab1911
August 26, 2008, 02:18 PM
chased off by a poodle? those big standard poodles are FIERCE!


Yes, I hear frenchmen surrender to them all the time. And don't ask me
about the physiological reaction of the average frenchman to the sight
and sound of a German shepherd :eek: It's not pretty nor does it smell
nice. Then again, being frenchmen, you probably won't be able to tell.

http://www.ozdoggy.com.au/uploads/21434/images/thumbs/300x300/3587/standard_poodles.jpg

Brian Pfleuger
August 26, 2008, 02:22 PM
Or rack as it first comes into your hands as you perceive a threat?

Well, I suppose I'd go with that one but there are two problems:

1) It's impossible to imagine every possible tactical scenario and so I won't discount a tactic that may have it's place under certain situations even though I personally doubt that I would ever use it intentionally.

2) As I stated, my shotty is an 1187 and so makes a slamming bolt sound, leaving me essentially out of the argument portion anyway.


I haven't really argued for or against this tactic. I have only pointed out some things I thought worth mentioning. David Armstrong stated that he has personally seen it work. Who am I to say it doesn't?

Glenn E. Meyer
August 26, 2008, 02:35 PM
One can imagine reasonable alternatives. Why would one display a firearm in a nonlethal configuration to opponents that may use lethal force unless you think they really aren't going to use lethal force. In that case, brandishing the gun is problematic.

It's a silly argument of hypotheticals for the self-defense shooter. One could imagine that a law enforcement officer in front of a crowd (in a movie with Angelina Jolie) might rack for intimidating sound effect.

If you pick up the gun, you think you have to fight - rack it. Cut the crap with internet prevarication and straw person what ifs, IMHO

threegun
August 26, 2008, 03:17 PM
It worked for me and my cousin. My racking was on a Mini-14 and the men knocking on the door (who refused to say who they were) ran fast enough to turn Carl Lewis green. My cousin chambered his Mossberg and leveled it on two teens burglarizing his truck. They froze in fear and began to beg not to be shot.

Glenn, If someone is shaking the handle on your bedroom door, with you prepared to fire once the door is breeched, what will it hurt to add a rack? You still have plenty of firepower in the shotgun and might even have time to replace the ejected shell. The benefit is possibly not having to kill a human being. Draw back............possible one less shell. This is one what if that I would bet my house has happened many times.

Microgunner
August 26, 2008, 03:26 PM
Having any combat firearm in anything less than absolute readiness is a gross mistake, and risking a possible malfunction just to mske a noise is just as big a mistake. If you choose to warn them use your voice. I'm a law abiding citizen, not a rattlesnake.

threegun
August 26, 2008, 03:44 PM
Micrgunner, How does racking the slide on a pump effect its readiness? Aside from the obvious of one less shell.

Perhaps we can learn from the rattlesnake. It can and will kill you but it would rather warn you first. In the case of the snake.....it warns to save valuable venom. I would rather warn (if safely possible) to avoid all the legal and psychological BS associated with killing a human being.

Microgunner
August 26, 2008, 03:51 PM
Micrgunner, How does racking the slide on a pump effect its readiness? Aside from the obvious of one less shell.




I don't know about you but I've had many a shotshell hang up whilst attempting to chamber. They're made of plastic a subject to distortion and knicks. I'm not going to relenquish the one shot I'm pretty sure I've got just to make a noise that the BG may or may not hear or may or may not recognize.

Glenn E. Meyer
August 26, 2008, 03:57 PM
Glenn, If someone is shaking the handle on your bedroom door, with you prepared to fire once the door is breeched, what will it hurt to add a rack? You still have plenty of firepower in the shotgun and might even have time to replace the ejected shell. The benefit is possibly not having to kill a human being. Draw back............possible one less shell. This is one what if that I would bet my house has happened many times.

If you want to unload your gun to scare someone, go right ahead. Not wanting to restart the great training argument, but I've gone through enough FOF to know what to do without unloading my gun.

I really haven't seen anyone before talk about throwing away a round for the sound effects.

threegun
August 26, 2008, 04:02 PM
I don't know about you but I've had many a shotshell hang up whilst attempting to chamber.

Nope never happened to me but I see your point.

threegun
August 26, 2008, 04:10 PM
I really haven't seen anyone before talk about throwing away a round for the sound effects.


You haven't heard of folks talking about firing a warning shot? Pretty much for sound effects. Our country does this our soldiers even do this on occasion. Personally I probably will never eject a live shell or fire a warning shot but it is obvious that it has its place and is done all the time. Whether its right or wrong is debatable.

threegun
August 26, 2008, 05:27 PM
Not wanting to restart the great training argument, but I've gone through enough FOF to know what to do without unloading my gun.


Thats great Glenn. You know what to do with your shotgun. So do I.

I can't help but wonder just why you object to employing a tactic (under certain circumstances of course) which could possibly end the attack and eliminate the need to kill someone? Will it subject you to increased risk of death by employing it (again under certain circumstances in this case the one I posed)? Sure it gets poo pooed on by the "experts". If it doesn't seriously increase your risk of death why not try it despite the experts opinion?

I am intimately familiar with my shotgun having shot threegun for years. I have no doubt that both you and I could easily eliminate anyone who breached our bedroom door. I guess I would rather not have to.

David Armstrong
August 26, 2008, 07:00 PM
If you pick up the gun, you think you have to fight - rack it. Cut the crap with internet prevarication and straw person what ifs, IMHO
That's a good point, and perhaps was not clear earlier. Racking should not ever be done merely to intimidate. You would rack only if you are willing and legally authorized to use the gun.
I really haven't seen anyone before talk about throwing away a round for the sound effects.
Racking should not throw away around, it should be the final step to bringing gun into a condition of readiness. I'll fall back on my old shotgun instructor days where we discuss the many advantages (both safety and tactical) of keeping the chamber empty (cruiser ready) on most shotguns as the normal method of storage.
I don't know about you but I've had many a shotshell hang up whilst attempting to chamber.
If that is true there is something wrong with either your shotgun, your ammunition, or your method of manipulating the gun. Hangups during chambering should be a very unusual rarity.

EastSideRich
August 26, 2008, 07:20 PM
So, then why does one need shots for the shotgun? Better yet, why can't
I just go to a gun store with a tape recorder and record the sound of a
pump action shotgun being racked and when there's a perp in my house
I can play back that fearsome sound from ten different speakers
all over the house. The perp will #1, #2 and run for the nearest exit thinking
that there are ten different shotguns in the house.

Man, this thread just goes on and on and on; the "arguments" against are kinda silly.
No one is advocating using this (a sound) as your sole means of defending yourself. I think people aren't really thinking rationally here. -I can already hear people typing : Crackheads, people hopped up on drugs blah blah blah; I'll come back to that.

The sound or a racking shotgun tells an aggressor that you're so far behind the curve that you only just then decided that the gun should actually be loaded.

For real? Do you think theres people out there who would say "Hey, they just now loaded their shotgun; I'm going into attack mode because they obviously aren't serious." ? Even if they do think that, now you do have a loaded shotgun; if you need to pull the trigger it is ready.

Why do people think that crack-heads think logically? And why do people think
everybody knows the sound of a shotgun being racked or how effective a shotgun
weapon can be at close range?

C'mon; That is probably one of the most recognizable sounds I can think of. Who doesn't know what a shotgun can do? Even if it isn't recognized as a shotgun, they'll know it's a gun of some sort. This argument is almost as good as saying "Oh yeah, well what if the guy is deaf ?"
As far as crackheads and the like, the odds of coming up against someone who is so out of their mind on something they don't recognize the threat to their wellbeing, don't care, or think they're invincible you have to admit is reeeeal slim. I would bet the vast majority of people who break into houses don't get that high beforehand. Most breaking and entering is probably done by someone who is high, but not completely out of their mind. If you are that out of it, why would you break into a house? You are in no condition to steal stuff effectively. That aside, I've spent enough time around drugs and drug users to know even when you're really <messed - edited> up, you still don't want to get shot.

So what if the guy smoked a bunch of meth, pcp and that weed dipped in embalming fluid (which I believe is a misnomer, it's really just pcp) and is in a murderous rage and also has a machine gun and is just waiting for the first sign of movement so he can blast away?
Yeah, I guess you would have just given away your position and would now be gunned down before you could do anything, all because you tried to "intimidate him into submission" just by racking your shotgun. OK:rolleyes:

Unless they are there specifically to kill you, an intruder is probably going to run for the nearest exit after realizing they are about to get shot at with anything, much less with a shotgun.
Even if they're there just to hurt someone, I'm betting they're out the door as fast as possible after that sound.

This "tactic" really just boils down to if one would rather at least have the possibility of having the intruder leave without a real confrontation (thus not having to deal with the legal ramifications of having killed someone, not to mention having having to clean someones blood and other stuff that was inside them off their carpet, walls and furniture), or if they would rather just shoot and then deal with the results.
I don't think anyone would really try to use this as their ultimate means of self defense - but it may save you from having to kill someone in your house.

While it may (I think probably would) get you out of a situation without having to shoot (and it might not, so don't use a tape recorder)
It is almost certainly not going to cause bullets to start flying your way due to giving away your position.


A perp that will grovel at the mere
sound of a shotgun being racked probably can be chased off by a poodle.

How can you even respond to this without putting the little rolling-eyes smiley guy?:rolleyes:

EDIT: on second thought I'm not sure how you meant this. You are probably actually right, but I get the feeling it's for a different reason. I bet most burglars would run as soon as any dog, be it a doberman or a chihuahua, alerted the homeowner to their presence.
On the other hand, if you meant that anyone who would "grovel at the mere sound of a shotgun being racked" is a big <coward - edited>, then I stand by my eye roll.

As far as Wildebees situation - man I feel for ya; You live in a completely different world than those of us in the US. I hope the stuff which you speak of never happens to you. South Africa is one of the places on my "You couldn't pay me enough to move there" list.

Derius_T
August 27, 2008, 04:20 AM
Threegun wrote:

I can't help but wonder just why you object to employing a tactic (under certain circumstances of course) which could possibly end the attack and eliminate the need to kill someone?

I for one would not downgrade a tactic likely to prevent a death, but you assume that the almighty racking sound would automatically de-escalate the situation without violence. There is too much of a chance for things to go wrong and end up dead as it is, why add more by intentionally adding a nonsense chance for mechanical failure to "hollywood" someone? What if the intruder was only intent on robbery, and now he knows you have a loaded gun, and will now try his hardest to kill you before you kill him? What if your hollywood shotgun rack does cause a mechanical malfunction? Why add another element of risk to a scenario, no matter how negligible you feel it is?

threegun
August 27, 2008, 06:39 AM
You would rack only if you are willing and legally authorized to use the gun.


We were disusing the scenario of an intruder already in your home and now trying to enter your bedroom were you have held up. You have already committed to fire once the door is breeched. Willing and legal are pretty much covered. Why not give, if the circumstances allow, a warning to the BG? You David are huge on doing whatever you can to avoid shooting so I ask you in this situation why not?

I for one would not downgrade a tactic likely to prevent a death, but you assume that the almighty racking sound would automatically de-escalate the situation without violence. There is too much of a chance for things to go wrong and end up dead as it is, why add more by intentionally adding a nonsense chance for mechanical failure to "hollywood" someone? What if the intruder was only intent on robbery, and now he knows you have a loaded gun, and will now try his hardest to kill you before you kill him? What if your hollywood shotgun rack does cause a mechanical malfunction? Why add another element of risk to a scenario, no matter how negligible you feel it is?

Derius, I didn't assume they would stop the attack. I said it could possibly end the attack just as it did for me and my cousin. The mere sound of my Mini 14 racking (from inside the house no less) sent 2 guys running. If they had breeched the door I would have fired until they stopped. The noise or the BG's knowing I was armed with something nasty ended the attack.

Mechanical failure is always possible but I have never had a problem with my pump shotgun to raise a concern.

"Hollywood" someone? I'm not talking about racking the slide in front of the bad guy. Once they can see the weapon there is no need for noise. They will either run or fight or freeze. That choice determines the next action........either shoot or don't shoot.

My personal experience suggests that the BG will stop the attack. In the limited times I would even conceder doing it the BG would still be at a great disadvantage. You seem to think that the BG is going to be a trained swat team member which if he is and alone he is still in serious danger facing down a shotgun armed homeowner hiding somewhere behind door number 3 in the dark and behind cover. In the real world he will probably be a drug addicted thug who will run at the sound of the shotguns action. If he continues through the door he will be shot without knowing were the shot came from. The only thing that changed is he had a warning not to continue and I had one less shell to fight with.

BTW If I allow the intruder to enter my room before attempting to fire I also face increased risk.......gun could still malf, ammo could be bad etc.

Microgunner
August 27, 2008, 09:29 AM
If that is true there is something wrong with either your shotgun, your ammunition, or your method of manipulating the gun. Hangups during chambering should be a very unusual rarity.

After thousands of rounds shooting sporting clays and five stand I have encountered many hangups. While the percentage is low the reality of a FTF exists and therefore cannot be discounted.

Glenn E. Meyer
August 27, 2008, 09:59 AM
The greatest chance of racking failure probably is operator error. That is probably increased by stress as we know in every domain of human performance. It can be mitigated by training and practice under appropriate stress. David is well known to wield a wicked shotgun.

On the other hand, even the best fall to stress. Even top level competitors step up to line and futz it up.

As far as sound effects - I prefer:

Yoohoo, I have a gun and I've called the police.

As compared to:

Yoohoo, I'm racking my gun now and unloading it a touch.

BG - what did you say - I can't hear. Could you do that again?

OK - rack, rack.

Racking a chambered gun to make a sound as a tactic - love it.

That's why some nice FOF training that entails actual interaction with folks is an added nuance to sheer competition with no such interaction and a focus on gun mechanics as compared to the interactive gestalt.

This thread will never die!

David Armstrong
August 27, 2008, 10:02 AM
You David are huge on doing whatever you can to avoid shooting so I ask you in this situation why not?
Umm, if you'll go back and check, that is what I am advocating. I do not advocate threatening deadly force when deadly force is not authorized by law.

pax
August 27, 2008, 10:29 AM
Pretty good chance that racking the shotgun would frighten an intruder.

What the intruder might do as a result of being frightened is anybody's guess.

Never bluff.

(And if you typically store the shotgun 'cruiser ready,' racking the shotgun is a necessary prelude to doing what needs to be done.)

pax

David Armstrong
August 27, 2008, 10:56 AM
After thousands of rounds shooting sporting clays and five stand I have encountered many hangups. While the percentage is low the reality of a FTF exists and therefore cannot be discounted.
Nothing can be discounted, true. But if one is developing a standard technique based on a malfunction, I would submit that the problem behind the malfunction should be addressed. Fighting weapons should be as reliable as possible. My 870 is fairly stock, and with over several thousand rounds of fighting-type ammo it has had one feeding problem over the years. My Beretta 1201 much the same. It did develop a glitch, but went right back to the factory for repair.

David Armstrong
August 27, 2008, 10:58 AM
Yoohoo, I'm racking my gun now and unloading it a touch.
Glenn...do you keep a round in the chamber and a full magazine in your shotgun while it is awaiting troubles?

Microgunner
August 27, 2008, 11:27 AM
I guess I'm just a worry wort. I keep all firearms that are out of the safe topped off and ready for use with the fewest possibly steps required. The exceptions are firearms being transported to the range. I fear that I would give the BG no warning and simply attempt to remove his head or a large portion of his torso. But that's just me.

Glenn E. Meyer
August 27, 2008, 11:39 AM
My go to 'home/zombie gun' is my AR, David. With a 20 round mag of Hornaday Tap. The shotgun is in the closet unloaded. The AR isn't chambered as the first gun for quick defense is a Glock. If the situation warrants, I retrieve the AR and chamber it.

If I have to chamber the AR, I will yell - Yoohoo - at the miscreant.

Not wanting to start the great AR vs. shotgun debate. I would be perfectly happy to have the shotgun as the home long gun but prefer the AR.

BTW, in Karl Rehn's AT class, we practiced hunkering down and the strong verbal challenge. Didn't really say Yoohoo.

We did a version of what Shawn as posted - I have a gun, police called - get out of house. Over and over with the last phrase with the phone off the hook.

That assumes we had time for all that, having heard a BG in the house.

Interestingly, some folks who decided to 'clear' - got ambushed and knocked on their butt.

David Armstrong
August 27, 2008, 12:09 PM
Not wanting to start the great AR vs. shotgun debate.
If you do, I'll start the 9mm vs .45 debate again<G>! But I think we've cleared up a point. If the chamber is already empty on the shotgun, you do not lose a round by racking the slide (or chambering a round from the magazine with the AR, etc.).
BTW, in Karl Rehn's AT class, we practiced hunkering down and the strong verbal challenge.
No disagreement. Anything to defuse the situation is good, IMO, whether that be verbal challenge, rack the shotgun, unmuzzle Fifi the Barking Beast, or whatever.
Interestingly, some folks who decided to 'clear' - got ambushed and knocked on their butt.
IME, almost every time a single operator goes on a clearing run they lose if the BG wants to take them out.

threegun
August 27, 2008, 04:56 PM
Glenn, An AR-15/Glock man. Never would have figured it. I figured you for a side by side shotty and a single action army LOL.

DA, If you knew someone has entered your home and was now attempting to enter your bedroom would you re rack the slide if the verbal command, get the heck out I'm armed, failed?

I'm assuming that you aren't going to wait until the bad guy gets to your room to charge the shotgun.

Stevie-Ray
August 27, 2008, 08:26 PM
As far as crackheads and the like, the odds of coming up against someone who is so out of their mind on something they don't recognize the threat to their wellbeing, don't care, or think they're invincible you have to admit is reeeeal slim.I'm sure that depends on location. In the inner cities, I'd say those chances are better than even.

threegun
August 28, 2008, 04:40 AM
It doesn't matter if the noise doesn't work because the BG is on drugs or whatever as you still have arguably the most effective close up weapon available.

Scattergun Bob
August 28, 2008, 09:16 AM
JAE,
Boy, this thread has some legs! I did not expect it to go 5 pages.

You said “I know it's good marketing, but following the "logic" we've all been fed too many times to count, no one needs to buy any more shotguns. All
we need are recordings of the pump action shotguns being racked.
Let's just debunk this bull right here. A perp that will grovel at the mere
sound of a shotgun being racked probably can be chased off by a poodle.”

And enough folks have given responses to your bait, including myself.

There are other parts of your original post that I would like to respond to.
You said “I personally would rather have a high powered semi-auto rifle myself, if I'm trained on it. Otherwise, I would much rather defend myself with a 1911 or a revolver.”

So really much of your ilk at racking a shotgun is that you prefer another weapon for self defense. OK I get it. Does that in some way diminish the effectiveness of a shotgun simply because of (in your words) folklore, I think not! I believe it is the best close range weapon that we have. Now, I am well trained in its use, confident in its application, and have a combat history with scatterguns. That does make a difference! I suggest that you are giving up a great deal of defensive strength by choosing a handgun over a scattergun simply because of your admitted lack of training. GET TRAINED, get familiar with this weapon and then you can make an objective decision.

You suggest that rifles and scatterguns requiring operator training to be useful as defensive tools, I agree. Further and something you did not mention is that handguns also require operator training to be useful. As a matter of fact every part of a defensive plan needs education, training and practice to BE USEFUL AND EFFECTIVE. So this on its face value does not exclude the scattergun as a primary and effective weapon for personal defense.

As I stated in my first post, the racking of a shotgun does draw my full attention. I do not know if it would cause a predator to flee my home, if it does so much the better. My point was that pumping the action reward and forward on a pump shotgun is required to chamber a round into battery. Whether that action has mythical properties or not is in debate, however, “it is, what it is” the act of preparing the weapon to fight.

Finally there is some good to come from this thread;
Some of our thoughts around “how to defend” our homes in this thread are different and that is exactly right. There are several distinct defense profiles that are common to home defense. That said, some of our disagreement is due to not defining which profile of home defense we are using and tells me that a thread needs to be started defining them.

Now to add some more legs to this thread;
1st - Some of you continue to generate the MYTH that you can rack-up (load into battery from the tube magazine) your pump scattergun quietly in some “stealth” mode. For 870, 1300, 500 series shotguns this is a FALSE AND DANGEROUS assumption. The # 1 operator error for these guns is failure to drive the shell stops open and allow a round to exit onto the carrier (short stroke) the #2 error is not fully engaging the bolt (locking Block not fully engaged in shoulder extension) into battery. These conditions are greatly affected by how hard you apply rearward and forward energy to the forend. As one Remington factory armorer is fond of saying, it takes brute force to drive the working parts out of the way, and then it takes more brute force to drive the working parts back into battery. This is not a warm fuzzy, touch type of operation, THIS IS A SLAM THE FOREND BACK AND SLAM THE FOREND FORWARD, with force of will and arm. It is a noisy robust operation. Please help me stop this myth, if not, I will get smarter the longer you do this and you will someday experience a type 1 or 2 operator error.

2nd – Some of you STILL assert that you store your scatterguns in condition 1, what can I do to convince you that this is folly. Every year we have injury and death due to scatterguns firing due to bumps, jars, or drops. This is not conjecture this is fact supported by hunting accident stats. Scattergun Bob says, any shotgun that has a safety that does not lock the sear needs to have an empty chamber BEFORE it leaves you hands. Trust that the folks who came up with “cruiser ready” did so because of blood on the ground. To long term store your scattergun in condition 1 is unsafe and in my option unprofessional. To advocate this type of storage on this forum presents a ethical issue that I for one will always speak against. No matter what the activity, if it is worth doing, it is worth doing safely.

"Sometimes it is reasonable to hunker down in your home and hope that you are not the focus of the super predator's work this night. On those nights the comfort of a good Scattergun across your lap, charged with the right loads can make a true difference and bring the light of morning quicker."
Good Luck & Be Safe

David Armstrong
August 28, 2008, 09:19 AM
DA, If you knew someone has entered your home and was now attempting to enter your bedroom would you re rack the slide if the verbal command, get the heck out I'm armed, failed?
Re-rack? No. A single rack, in conjunction with verbal commnads, covers it as far as I'm concerned. If I've already racked the gun I'm not going to go through the process again.

David Armstrong
August 28, 2008, 09:26 AM
Trust that the folks who came up with “cruiser ready” did so because of blood on the ground.
And holes in the roof or floorboard of the cruiser.

threegun
August 28, 2008, 09:34 AM
For me if I hear a window break or a door get breached on the other side of my home I'm not going to wait until the BG gets to my bedroom to charge the shotgun. I'm going to expect my bedroom door get kicked in however if the bad guy tests the knob I just don't see how a re rack would harm anything especially if the verbal commands fail.

pax
August 28, 2008, 09:34 AM
Boy, this thread has some legs! I did not expect it to go 5 pages.
This thread will never die!
Man, this thread just goes on and on and on;


What do you think, guys - is it time to put this one to bed?

pax

Saab1911
August 28, 2008, 09:39 AM
What do you think, guys - is it time to put this one to bed?


Yes. The original point was made, and counter points were made and
counter-counter ....

Yes. Please put it out of its misery.

Glenn E. Meyer
August 28, 2008, 09:49 AM
Until the next time it is asked. On the USS Enterprise, Worf is debating with Data on whether one should rack their phaser and call a BG a Venusian Blikfuisl Lipnocker when telling them to FREEZE!

pax
August 28, 2008, 10:08 AM
:) Thanks for the good discussion, everyone.

pax