225 Winchester... or what ???

[Magnum Wheel Man]

... so an old target rifle caught my eye in the toy store last time I was there...

more on that here...

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307059

it's an old custom rifle chambered in 225 Winchester...

... I have a lot of different cartridge chamberings between all my guns, but don't own anything in 225 Winchester... if this were an original rifle, I'd leave it, but since it is already a custom... if I decide to get it, I could rechamber the barrel to fit the 223 or some other more modern cartridge... ( 223 come to mind easily, as I think I'd like to keep the unique extra heavy barrel )

so 225 Winchester... or what ???

[blu97]

I have a savage 340 in 225 win, nice little gun, dies and brass are out there.

Cheeper than changing it.

[wncchester]

The old .225 is a fine varmint cartridge but it was pretty well killed off before it had a chance by Remington's almost simultanous introduction of my favorite, the .22-250.

You gonna have a hard time getting that bolt face to accept a .223!

Keep it as it is unless it just won't shoot as it is. That's not likely unless the bore has been boggered up.

[SL1]

The 225 Winchester shares a RIM diameter with the 220 Swift. It is already too big for most .22s. The 225 Winchester case body is the same as the .30-30, so there are .22 case bodies, just none of the .222, .223, 222 Magnum series.

SL1

[Mike Irwin]

I worked a bit with the .225 back in the 1980s.

Yeah, it was a fine cartridge.

Yeah, the .22-250 smoked it, rightfully so.

Yeah, that rim was a pain in the ass.


Winchester should have just concentrated on making the .220 Swift popular. I think they would have been a lot more successful in the end.

[Jim Watson]

I could not find anything common that rechambering would "clean up" a .225 Win. chamber. Figure on buying dies and brass or leave it on the shelf.

[mikenbarb]

I saw this post and saw the 22 cal. talk and I was wondering about a 220 Arrow? Are/where they any good or just another cartridge brain fart?

[Scorch]

If you don't want a 225 Win, there is enough difference in size to rechamber to 220 Swift, but that old rolling block is already going to have trouble handling the 225 Win. If you are dead set on buying that old piece, consider rebarreling it to something mild, like 43 Spanish, or 38-55, or even 30-30, but please don't rechamber it to something that operates at high pressure (my choice would be 41 Remington RF). I had a friend who had an old Argentine Remington rolling block in 7X57, and that thing would spit and separate cases regularly. Remington rolling block rifles do not lock up tight, they use the heel of the hammer to hold the breech closed, and as they wear they get really loose.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I guess we were talking about cutting off the chamber & refitting the barrel ( that way I'll know the head spacing is as good as possible for the design of the rifle )... my buddy didn't see a problem being able to make the changes to a rimless like the 223... & if it weren't for the beautyfully blued extra heavy barrel, & the fitted to that diameter burl beaver tail forearm... I'd rebarrel it in 7-30 waters ( in fact he was just mentioning that he has 2 extra 7mm barrels when we were chatting last weekend )

M&B... I found this interesting data on the arrow...

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w220wwa.html

[Jim Watson]

Oops. I did not check the other thread to see this was a Rolling Block.

I recall an old magazine article when the .225 was new on the market, How to have a modern factory varmint caliber on any old action you happen to have lying around. The idea was that its rim would let it run in a lot of actions that did not have rimless extractors. They listed a lot of things like Martini-Henrys and .303 Savages but I don't recall mention of a Rolling Block. Probably did, in those days, there was less money floating around and a more adventurous attitude among shooters and gunsmiths.

I don't know if a Swift reamer would clean up a .225, the shoulder diameter is a little smaller but it it farther ahead so the taper might take care of it. But I don't want a Rolling Block Swift. I don't want a .225 or .223 rolling block, either.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I poured through my resources of Wildcat & factory info... & if the gun / barrel condition is good... looks like I'd leave it as a 225 Winchester... anything else just seems like more work for something just about the same...

maybe I could find a matching diameter extra heavy barrel, & do up a more period mid bore lower pressure cartridge ???

looks like the 30-30 ish cases would be a pretty easy option... I know little to nothing about the 32's... maybe there is something there ???

[Jim Watson]

Hard to keep track of two threads on the same gun.

You could leave it a .225, dies and brass would cost less than a new barrel or even a setback and rechamber. I would load it light. The Rolling Block is a strong action as black powder actions go, but a heavy load will form a slant into the head of the case as the block rocks back against the hammer.

You could rebore or rebarrel it to anything on the .30-30 rim diameter with no change. You could rebore or rebarrel it to anything with a larger than .30-30 rim diameter with only the extra job of cutting the extractor to fit.

A rebore would let you keep the same barrel that seems to have impressed you. The couple of shops I have seen recommended (but not used) are:
http://www.cutrifle.com/reboring.html
http://www.deltagunshop.com/Clearwater/CW_about.html

[SL1]

Just a quick point: The .225 Winchester rim is a tad SMALLER than the .30-30 rim, while the body is about the same diameter. So, yes, you can chamber to a .30-30 type case. But you MAY need to change the face or extractor (I am not familiar with the rolling block design).

SL1

[Jim Watson]

Good point.
The .225 rim diameter is the same as .30-06, etc so as to simplify production and inventory of parts. They called it a "semi-rim" because the cartridge is specified for headspace on the shoulder, even though there is still ample rim for a simple single shot extractor. Case dimensions are close to .219 Improved Zipper.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I guess I assumed there was some sort of "bolt face", but after talking with my buddy... appearently on that design of rifle, it's flat, so the extractor could need modification, but there is no opening of the bolt face required for any of the cartridges.... probably why a good number of early custom guns were done on that type of action...

BTW... my buddy ( again without seeing it, but from my description of the lettering on the tang ), thinks it's an '02 smokeless action ????

[SL1]

The .225 case rim is also thinner than the .30-06 and .30-30 rims. That is another reason that it takes a different shell holder than those other rounds. The only other round that I know shares this rim is the .220 Swift.

From an extractor standpoint, thinner may not matter. It doesn't on my Contender barrel.

SL1

[Scope Bite]

After looking at cartridge dimensions... I'm pretty sure even the standard .220 Swift reamer could be run into the .225 chamber without an issue. If so; a good gunsmith should be able to rechamber the rifle without even setting the barrel back.

If I have over looked something... I guarantee .220 Swift Ackley Improved would nullify the .225 for a rechamber. You would also have a much easier time reloading for the rifle. (The power/velocity gain isn't worth it, just the brass-flow factor.) Trimming Swift brass is a bit irritating, and never- ending. Neck reaming/turning is the real issue for most reloaders, though. I can't get more than 3 firings out of my brass before the cases must be reamed. (I prefer reaming over turning.) Trimming isn't as much of an issue, but is still required every 2-3 firings with W-W brass and my 'mild' prefered loads. Other brands of brass require trimming after every firing, and reaming every other.


If you don't have experience with the hot .22s; don't let me get you down. They all have brass flow issues. They only people I've ever seen deny having to trim anything from .22-250 to .224 SuperMaximumUltraImprovedScreamingSquirrelCannon... are the guys that don't reload.

Like I said... I think .220 Swift will rechamber just fine. If not; .220 Swift Ackley Improved should be a consideration. .225 Winchester is just fine. Keep it if you like the rifle the way it is.

[SL1]

The trouble with rechambering for a cartridge that is in all dimensions bigger than the .225 Winchester is that it will put more stain on the not-so-strong action. Bigger case head diameter means more thrust, and more powder capacity means thrust lasts longer. So, cases will stretch more and the action may also become permanently stretched (headspace problems). Only going to a lower-pressure will off-set that. For small calibers in weak actions, there is an advantage to a high pressure cartridge with a small case head, such as a .222 Magnum. It gets about the same velocity as a larger head case at lower pressure, given a retriction on breach face thrust, and is more efficient.

SL1