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bojack2575
August 14, 2008, 05:35 PM
9X18 Power question

My question may sound absurd but has anyone actually used it in a self defence situation and found it to be unsatisfactory?

I got the idea for this thread from the question asked above by Eastern Assassin on another thread he started, but I want to up the ante and ask it for all calibers. There is always a lot of debate about this caliber being to week or this caliber being a one hit wonder.

So has anybody out there ever had to actually use there gun in self defense and if so what were the results example; caliber, gun, wounded, killed, not killed?:eek:

I know this is a very bold and sensitive question to ask, but hey this is real life.

ElectricHellfire
August 14, 2008, 06:16 PM
I dont normally like to answer this type of question and you are most likely to get some greif for asking it but here goes.

I have been involved in one altercation many years ago with a person on PCP trying to bash his way through my front door.

As you know, people on PCP feel very little pain and often keep attacking even when horribly injured. The weapon I used to end the fight was a .41 Mag Ruger Blackhawk. He had a bayonet and was in his underwear. I'll leave it to you to decide how that worked out.

bojack2575
August 14, 2008, 06:29 PM
I don't normally like to answer this type of question and you are most likely to get some grief for asking it but here goes.

Hey I realize this is a very bold and sensitive question and I appreciate you answering it. I think I asked a question that most on this forum would have liked to. I certainly don't want to offend anyone and nobody has to answer if they don't want to

Like I said we are always talking about what caliber can and can't do so lets quit guessing and hear from those who know for sure.

B.N.Real
August 14, 2008, 06:30 PM
Good to read you posting here ElectricHellFire.

That could have been really awful if you werent prepared.

Stagger Lee
August 14, 2008, 07:16 PM
Didn't we just ash-can an identical thread here not two weeks ago?

vox rationis
August 14, 2008, 07:36 PM
As you know, people on PCP feel very little pain and often keep attacking even when horribly injured. The weapon I used to end the fight was a .41 Mag Ruger Blackhawk. He had a bayonet and was in his underwear. I'll leave it to you to decide how that worked out.

Yikes! Glad that you made it through OK!

Stone Cold
August 14, 2008, 07:41 PM
Seems like this thread will be doomed, and rightfully so, but I can't help but point out that the only reliable data about caliber stopping power comes from ER statistics. Having guided many ER doctors, I can say those stats tend to indicate that gunshot survivors decrease as caliber increases. Of course, this is not absolute, and a shot to the right place will likely be fatal no matter what size pill is involved. But when you see gangbangers bragging up their wounds, it's usually from 9s, not 45s.

HKFan9
August 14, 2008, 07:46 PM
Warning: This post contains graphic descriptions of shocking things done by people under the influence of PCP.

I wrote a research paper on PCP once, its absurd what some of these dope heads are cable off with their mind in that state. I'm glad to see you answer a sensitive subject like this and I don't feel someone should get flamed for asking. Knowledge is power, granted some people are uncomfortable with it, but I simply cannot get mad at anyone asking a question to gain knowledge in a respectful manor.

Among some of the stories on PCP I discovered, one man actually bit, and swollowed his 3yr old son's thumb in order to "bond together".

Another man was found running down a street in the middle of the night naked, covered in blood, which turned out to be his roommate's. Oh I forgot to mention from doing an autopsy(sp?) they discovered a "partially gnawed" lung on the roommates body after the PCP user disemboweled him.

I can understand if some of you think a question like this is wrong. I have never had to fire at someone so personally I can't relate. But I would suggest if you are uncomfortable about your particular story that maybe you share one of you heard/read/saw on TV. A posting saying how dumb this question is, is a waste of everyone's time including your own. Referring to a certain incident you do know about however, can still educate us all. Just because a topic is sensitive, does not mean its inappropriate.

I'll start with referring to a sad and recent story about Sean Taylor. I'm not a Redskins fan but I was a really big fan of Sean Taylor. I can't find information of the caliber used in his shooting, but he was struck in the leg. The bullet hit his artery in his thigh and he died a few days later. It goes to show you placement is more important than bullet size. I'm not saying to aim for the thigh, but that bullet hitting him there in his leg was enough to stop a huge NFL defense man.

Brian Pfleuger
August 14, 2008, 07:52 PM
I'll ask a follow up question, at the risk of drawing ire as well.


Why is this such a taboo here? People ask veterans about their experiences when they are close to them or feel they are willing to talk. Since the basic premise of a forum is questions that include everyone, I don't see the problem. If you had an experience with SD and are uncomfortable talking about it or simply feel it's private or shouldn't be addressed publicly then, I guess, don't answer. Some people may want to share their experiences, it's actually a technique used to help some people cope with trauma.

Incidentally, this IS the wrong forums for this...

bojack2575
August 14, 2008, 08:04 PM
Didn't we just ash-can an identical thread here not two weeks ago?

I think every day on this forum we debate and speculate about what caliber can do what, by people who have never had to shoot anything other than a paper target (Thank God)

This thread was directly meant for people who have had to unfortunately use a gun to defend themselves.

I can understand someone who has had to deal with shooting another human being not wanting to discuss or talk about it, and if they don't obviously they don't have to.

Saab1911
August 14, 2008, 08:41 PM
I dont normally like to answer this type of question and you are most likely to get some greif for asking it but here goes.

I have been involved in one altercation many years ago with a person on PCP trying to bash his way through my front door.

As you know, people on PCP feel very little pain and often keep attacking even when horribly injured. The weapon I used to end the fight was a .41 Mag Ruger Blackhawk. He had a bayonet and was in his underwear. I'll leave it to you to decide how that worked out.


Dude. Where did you live at the time? And have you moved away?

Yes, dudes on PCP have super powers. They can break through handcuffs
and in general kick your buttocks.

Did the 41 magnum knock the dude back, or did he just bleed out?

Man, you're too young (about my age) to have experienced so much.
Maybe that's why you feel prematurely old.

Glad that you're safe, I'm guessing. Do you have all four limbs intact?

Whew. Thanks for sharing dude.

And I like to add that this topic should not be taboo (I'm with you Peetza).
The subject is personal, and if some people don't like to share they just
don't respond. But if someone like ElectricHellfire wants to share, then
why not?

Cheers,

Jae

ElectricHellfire
August 14, 2008, 09:32 PM
The incident occured many years ago (17) and I was about 20 at the time. I have since moved away when I got married at 21. That particular neighborhood was in East Dallas which when I was young, was not a bad area. It became bad during my high school years.
My mother called me at my then girlfriend's home (now my wife) and said someone was beating on the door. I rushed there and found a 30ish male literally throwing himself against the door. I had some words with him and soon realized he was not right. I lured him into the street with him wildly swinging a M-16 bayonet at me and than I suddenly doubled back and got into the house around the back and quickly retrieved my bedside gun, the Blackhawk. After much yelling, and him beginning to make headway on the hinges I opened it on his backswing and kicked at him but he would not retreat even after I made it plain that he was about to be killed and leveled my weapon at him. Lets just say that the .41 mag was sufficient to stop the threat immediately. I felt as though my actions were justified and so did the legal system. I was never charged with anything. In the end Im so glad none of my family was injured.

Stone Cold
August 15, 2008, 06:07 AM
You would have been tried for murder in Ohio.

Kreyzhorse
August 15, 2008, 07:07 AM
Thanks for sharing that E-Hellfire. That is a pretty sobering story. Most of us have weapons ready for such an incident and hope we never have to use them. I'm sure that was a pretty horrible situation to be in but it is a perfect example of why the right to self defense and the castle doctrine are so important.

Alleykat
August 15, 2008, 08:21 AM
You would have been tried for murder in Ohio.

Maybe, but hopefully, not likely. :)

Kreyzhorse
August 15, 2008, 08:43 AM
You would have been tried for murder in Ohio.

Maybe, but hopefully, not likely.

Prior to Ohio passing the Castle Doctrine, you had a duty to retreat until retreat was no longer an option. At that point, you could defend yourself.

It is possible that there could have been charges filed. Thankfully Ohio wised up and implemented the Castle Doctrine.

Wiskey_33
August 15, 2008, 08:53 AM
If some A-Hole swings a knife at me, that's enough for me to pull my weapon. Two, if the same A-Hole tries kicking my door in, still holding said knife, that's strike 3.

If I were wearing my weapon at first conflict, that would have been end of story.

Good for you HellFire, one less drug addict on the streets, thanks for sharing.

Saab1911
August 15, 2008, 09:04 AM
First off, I completely support ElectricHellFire's decision.

I want to ask something which is not meant as second guessing. I'm just
curious.

Why did your mother call you (who was unarmed at the time) and not the
police?

cheers,

jae

ElectricHellfire
August 15, 2008, 09:51 AM
My mom was home alone, Dad was at work. She did have acess to a .38 special in the house and would probably have used it in desperation. Luckily I was only about 5 minutes away so I guess that is why she called me first. In hindsight calling 911 would probably been the more prudent course, but then hindsight is always 20/20. If I had it to do all over again I would have prefered the police handle it but in times such as those you dont always think as clearly as you should. Keep in mind these were the days before CHLs and Castle Doctrines here in Texas.

bojack2575
August 15, 2008, 11:27 AM
I had similar incident happen to my mom, let me explain.

My dad was a firefighter and worked 24hrs off 48hrs. I am the youngest of four (The last one still living at home) I was doing what most teenagers were on a Friday night, hanging out with friends. My mom was home alone this Friday night and this deranged man was beating on the door demanding that she open it. She kept yelling at him that she had called the Police and that he better leave he said he was going to kick the door in and he tried a couple times(Luckily the door held) in time for the Police to get there they were only about 2 mins away. They said another couple kicks on the door and he probably would have been in.

I always kept 12GA loaded and ready in my closet and I wonder what would have happened if I had been home, lucky for that guy I wasn't, and lucky for my mom the police weren't far away.

David Armstrong
August 15, 2008, 01:09 PM
Without going into the personal side of it, I've been fortunate enough to be able to investigate/research/analyze thousands of shootings, and it boils down to a few basics for me at least when discussing handguns and the traditional self-defense world.
1. Caliber doesn't make much of a difference, if any, in the outcome.
2. Stopping the BG is far more important than killing him.
3. The huge majority of stops are psychological in nature, not physical.

Brian Pfleuger
August 15, 2008, 01:14 PM
You would have been tried for murder in Ohio.


Never mind now I know why people don't like these threads.

RsqVet
August 15, 2008, 01:40 PM
Frankly the reasn why folks don't like these threads is not only the armchair QB work that goes on but also the fact no matter how justified having to use deadly force is not pleasant and not something reasonable people want to recount over and over again.

Electric my hat is off to you for doing the right thing and for sharing, I suspect not many others out there will, however as others have mentioned there area a pleanty of reports out there for folks to read as well as whole books on the subject.

What you do with the data is more offten a personal thing --- one guy will read of a 380 stopping a guy and say the 380 is adequate and shot placement matters more than anything... someone else will discount it as a lucky shot or whatever. ....

Stone Cold
August 15, 2008, 01:47 PM
In Ohio, the fact that you opened the door and escalated the confrontation would probably even nullify the castle doctrine (which isn't law until 9/9/08). Had you gone into your house, and waited for an intrusion, you would probably have been justified in my state after 9/9/08. Until then, unless you are in immenent risk of death or severe bodily injury, you cannot shoot even a drug crazed maniac. Personally, I prefer the Texas law, but we all have our burdens, and everyone should know what is justifiable use of deadly force in their state, regardless of what is posted on the internet.

ElectricHellfire
August 15, 2008, 02:03 PM
Ive encountered threads like this one on more than one occasion and on more than one forum. Most of the time I wouldnt answer and certainly not to any amount of detail. There are still details I dont want to go into here.

I guess you just caught me on a talkative kinda of day. I guess I figure that if it helps someone else in a future situation then it was a positive thing. Critique it all you want. It was a very long time ago and I really dont think too often about it anymore. Once you have a family and start having kiddos you dont have much time to stew over bygones.

45_Shooter
August 15, 2008, 02:18 PM
Thanks Hellfire, honest experiences are worth much more than any postulating. I appreciate you willing to share very much.

I remember as a younger man the feelings that came from the first hunting experiences I had, I'll probably never forget those feelings, and to this day I have the utmost respect for the animals I hunt because of that. I can only imagine the internal turmoil that results from the taking of another human life, and admire those willing to share for the benefit of others.

Alleykat
August 15, 2008, 02:19 PM
Prior to Ohio passing the Castle Doctrine, you had a duty to retreat until retreat was no longer an option. At that point, you could defend yourself.

Really hard for me to relate to that mindset! OTOH, maybe that's why those Buckeyes do so great in their bowl games?! :D

Stone Cold
August 15, 2008, 03:28 PM
I understand. It's just that this kind of talk is what could be used against someone in a legitimate SD situation.

Now as for Ohio:

Do you know why Kentucky doesn't fall into Tennessee? Because Ohio sucks.

LICCW
August 15, 2008, 08:01 PM
One of the reasons I have a dog is as another layer of defense. They warn you at the first sign of trouble, they'll defend you to the death, and they are damn to have around if it hits the fan.

Oldjarhead
August 15, 2008, 08:41 PM
Hellfire, as a fellow Texan, I tell you I am man of few words. You did what had to do. You did the only thing you could do. Few men who love their mothers, would do little different than you did. nuff said.

TCman
August 15, 2008, 11:59 PM
You would have been tried for murder in Ohio.

Then what would you have done in this situation. Since I started working for the local PD i realize help can take a while to get there.

I would rather be tried and sit in a jail cell then be dead.

Sixer
August 16, 2008, 02:36 AM
The guy was cracked out and chasing you around your own property with a bayonet! I would consider that a life threatening situation. Forget about the front door issue. Any jury that would convict an individual under those circumstances is insane.

#20fan
August 16, 2008, 03:40 AM
When I was 15yrs. old I witnessed my father shoot and kill a armed robber who was standing no more than 3ft. from where I was sitting.
My parents managed apartments back in the 60's. The rental office was the converted 3rd bedroom of the apt. we lived in. There was a door to the outside and an interior door to the hallway that led to our living quarters. My Mom had a habit of leaving the interior door open.
This was on a Sat. evening, my Mom was at the desk doing paper work as it was the 1st of the month and people were paying thier rents. I was sitting in a chair to the left side of the desk against the wall. From there I could see the office door and also down the hall. I imagine I was talking about some 15yr. old meaningless crap to her.
The office door opened and a guy walks in with a big silver gun in his hand pointing it at my Mom and then at me, back and forth demanding the money.
My Father who was in their bedroom heard what was going on. He got his Mod. 10 .38cal. and started down the hall. I could see Dad out of the corner of my eye and remember thinking that I could not look his way or I might tip off the BG. Just before my Dad reached the open door he said in a loud voice "Honey". This made the BG look and move his gun in that direction.
My Dad fired twice striking the BG in the chest. I was close enough to hear the BG groan, cuss and run out the door. He died about 50yds. down the street.
I don't know for sure that this incident caused it but my Dad turned to alcohol and my parents were divorced within a year. He killed himself some years later. You decide.
I don't know what kind of ammo my Father had in the gun, probably just lead round nose. The .38 was not an instant stopper but it did the job. It's also thr reason I carry a .45.

My own situation, I just fired that'a ways 'cause everyone else was!

shortwave
August 16, 2008, 03:56 AM
Stone Cold, your law statements about Ohio are true unless you are Cols. Ohio- chief of police in which case your allowed to fire through your house window and shoot burglar attempting to break in. The rest of us aren`t as fortunate:rolleyes:

thallub
August 16, 2008, 06:19 AM
So has anybody out there ever had to actually use there gun in self defense

Yes, twice.

skydiver3346
August 16, 2008, 06:59 AM
Uh, remind me not to live in Ohio.

Guess its true what they say, "It's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6".