PDA

View Full Version : Gangbangers?


Crow61
August 9, 2008, 07:49 PM
Do you all think that the gangbangers and other criminals practice and or train with their guns?

You would think that these are folks who cannot legally own a gun, so where do the shoot?

Do they clean their guns?

Anybody else ever thought about this?

eldogg4life
August 9, 2008, 08:12 PM
I always assume that I will be comfronted by someone with an above average ability to handle a firearm. That is why I train.
Like they say in bodybuilding, Your competition is training even if your not.
I assume a criminal would be more comfortable with killing than most people are and would be determined not to go to jail so that makes them even more lethal.
Plus gangbangers often travel in groups so even if they are not trained but are still armed, one shot in the dark toward you could be "all she wrote".
I think you should focus on your strength and weakness.
I know its kind of cold but i see it as a boxing match. You train as hard as you can to get as good as you can be and may the best man win though sometimes you are better lucky than good. Sorry for the sports examples but thats how I see it. Focus on you and you system of security (home alarm system, exit stragedy, clean and functioning firearms, situation awareness, etc...) and trust that your training will get you through.
We can't account for every variable but we can (through forums like this) establish a solid plan you would bet your life on. Good Luck!!!;)

Erik
August 9, 2008, 08:21 PM
"Anybody else ever thought about this?"

The military and their federal law enforcement counterparts think about it. I'm sure certain state and local entities do as well.

It has been established that criminal entities send members into the military, and not for reasons of patriotism. Some eventually "deploy" back to the "civilian field" with training and practical experience intact. It has also been established that some of them serve as trainers of sorts.

Rant Casey
August 9, 2008, 08:24 PM
It doesn't take much training to shoot someone from ten feet away, you don't even need sights at that range.

porkskin
August 9, 2008, 08:58 PM
I think they train more than none but not realistically or "FOF" for a unwilling victim. I knew a pot dealer that carried a S&W 5906 with 3 rounds in the gun gun and FMJ's at that. No idea if he could shoot or not but just a comment on the mentality you are referencing. He had shot all the rounds the gun came with. no idea if that was at someone or what but he had a 15 + 1 pistol with 2 +1 rounds loaded...

Sigma 40 Blaster
August 9, 2008, 09:23 PM
Let's make a quick point about "gangbangers". The people most of you guys on here call gangbangers (the ones you see wearing a lot of jewelry and baggy pants) are not highly trained or motivated individuals for the most part...most of them are mall ninjas of sorts who think having a gun empowers them. These are the people that you'd probably cross the street to avoid or tell your wife to make sure her purse is protected.

The enforcers and muscle men of real criminal organizations (real gangs) do usually have tactical training, firearms training geared towards what they do. You would likely not fear or be very apprehensive of these people if you saw them on the streets.

The average stick up guy is probably as familiar with guns as a newbie who thinks his Glock 17 will protect him from bad guys and polar bears even if he allows concrete to cure in the barrel. The guys who pull home invasions and car jackings are probably a lot more proficient with tactics and firearms...

Ultimately I assume that everyone out there is better and faster than me, that's why I keep trying to improve and learn as much as I can.

Keltyke
August 9, 2008, 09:27 PM
Doesn't matter. My CWP instructor told us, "If a guy comes at you with his fists, you gotta assume he's Joe Lewis. If a guy comes at you with a knife, you gotta assume he's an expert, including throwing it. If a guy comes at you with a gun, you gotta asume he's Wyatt Earp." In other words, NEVER underestimate your opponent.

workinwifdakids
August 9, 2008, 09:28 PM
It has been established that criminal entities send members into the military,...

Absolutely. Active gang membership in the military (and, therefore, military-trained gang membership) has become endemic. Gang graffiti in Iraq and gang signs by combat personnel in photos and video serve as visual reminders. There are gang members doing drive-bys (and teaching others to do the same) who have shot from moving vehicles while being shot at in Iraq and Afghanistan. There are gang members planning home invasions with skills learned in MOUT schools, and honed in combat.

So - are the majority of gang members cleaning their weapons, shooting accurately, and training to move in groups? Hardly. But always assume the worst (best?) of your opponent, and plan/act accordingly.

Casimer
August 9, 2008, 09:29 PM
'Train' may be an overstatement, but I do know of a range here in Pennsylvania that was frequented by gangs on a relatively regular basis. This stopped when the range owner started asking for photo ID on the recommendation of a parole officer that worked there part time.

From what I was told, at first only one or two guys would come by and they were always polite and low key. But eventually they let their guard down and started showing up in larger groups. Even then, they didn't do anything to get themselves kicked out, which suggests that they were actually practicing with their weapons rather than screwing around - the range is pretty strict w/ regards to handling and procedures.

Scattergun Bob
August 9, 2008, 09:33 PM
This a LARGE field to address perhaps, you could narrow the scope. There have been predators whom are well trained, maintained their skill level, are well armed, and maintain their weapons. There are also predators who don't. I have watched convicts in prison practice handgun takeaways, IN have seen predators use what we would call "advanced gunhandling skills". Do not underestimate your adversary!

Good Luck & Be Safe

Rampant_Colt
August 9, 2008, 10:24 PM
I suspect the only training 'bangers get is from watching their favorite movies and playing video games that show them how to hold their handguns sideways, "gangsta-style"

visual aid:

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/431/gangstaglock1zj0.jpg

you'll know if they've any training if that's the case.


Gangstas? [*WARNING--FOUL LANGUAGE]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnP1hZFMCMA <-- the real deal right there with lots of guns!

The main thing to worry about with gang-bangers is being "punked-out" by them--falling victim to multiple attackers hiding unseen around the corner. Happened to me.

These cowardly little punks rely on strength in numbers for intimidation and/or to try and overwhelm you. Odds are at least one of them will be in possession of a firearm or edged weapon, but which one! Baggy clothing and hoodies make identifying concealed handguns and weapons much more difficult. All these damn kids wear them now! "Gangsta" is a fashion statement :barf:

Another popular gang tactic is to try and pull your shirt/jacket over your head so as to blind you and bind your arms up. My friend's father was murdered that way by two gang-bangers that jumped him, pulled his coat over his head and shoulders, removed his Glock from its holster and shot him DRT.

Don't underestimate these crafty little turds

Crow61
August 10, 2008, 01:22 PM
There are some folks that "fit the description" of a gangbanger that shoot at the range that I do. The come in and shoot a few rounds and leave. You do have to have a DL and the people who operate the range/gun shop keep your license while you are shooting.

It is kinda intimidating when they come in and start shooting.

Creature
August 10, 2008, 01:31 PM
Really? Why do you feel intimidated? Do they say anything to you or look at you funny?

XD-Ro
August 10, 2008, 01:34 PM
Don't think gangs are strictly limited to urban areas....these thugs are slowly rolling out into rural areas. My town has had a few drive-bys in the last few months...one of the houses shot up was the wrong house.

Thank goodness everyone was upstairs ...

My greatest fear is that you take one of them out defending yourself and the rest of them decend on you like a pack of wolfs...days..weeks..months after the event.....

nemoaz
August 10, 2008, 02:02 PM
It's hard to generalize. Each gang has different traits. Some are significantly more militarized and trained than others, Mara comes to mind first of course. There is also a significant increase in bangers that go to the military to get joint the military just to get training and (obviously) a higher portion of those have seen combat these days.

Creature
August 10, 2008, 02:06 PM
Keep in mind that some gangbangers are military-trained former veterans with combat experience.

Hope that helps.

Crow61
August 10, 2008, 02:35 PM
Really? Why do you feel intimidated? Do they say anything to you or look at you funny?


No, they do not say anything to me. I am just not accustomed to shooting with/around people who are wearing their pants below their behing with their drawers showing.

These are the same types you see on the streets with loud and vulgar music blasting.

Do they have a right to be there? Sure, as long as they are not breaking any rules or the law. But, it still makes me uncomfortable.

Creature
August 10, 2008, 02:38 PM
But, it still makes me uncomfortable.

But WHY do you feel uncomfortable? Are they threatening in some way?

Crow61
August 10, 2008, 02:48 PM
They have a "threatening" appearance. This type of dress does not bring respect to one's self.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it probably is a duck.

Erik
August 10, 2008, 03:02 PM
And training aside, remember that active criminals are often very familiar with violence, both dishing it out and receiving it.

Superhouse 15
August 10, 2008, 03:02 PM
Anyone have a link to the recent FBI report on LEOs assaulted and injured / killed? IIRC in it a majority of those criminals interviewed claimed to have practiced, some at "real" shooting ranges, others in rural areas, dumps, gravel pits, etc, and some in urban areas where gunfire would not be reported. I have seen confiscated weapons range from Colt handguns to RG revolvers, and from sawed off single shot .410s to nice 870s.

My luck, I'd get the guy who practiced and had a nice 1911 instead of the guy with the starter pistol wrapped in duct tape.

Don Lu
August 10, 2008, 03:41 PM
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it probably is a duck.

This is not so..we have so many sayings that either rhyme or just sound good when spoken or written. just b/c it has a ring to it does not make it true. Seems that you are just uncomfortable with what you know nothing about. Baggy clothes and slang dont make a gangster any more than tight jeans and confederate flag lisence plate/bumper sticker and southern drawl make a racist. In the real world Ive come to discover that dress is just dress. I lierally know lawyers, engineers, fortune 500 managemnent that when not working dress in oversized jeans, sports jersey, bump loud music in the cars ect..nothing to to with gang life at all. I also work with alot of confederate flag wearing, never been out of thier town unless work related country folk who are great people. dress is just dress.

Rampant_Colt
August 10, 2008, 04:04 PM
Unfortunately we don't have the luxury of knowing and identifying which are the "real" gang-bangers and which ones are the wanna-be's. All these kids dress the same now-a-days!

As far as i'm concerned, if you want to act like a thug and appear/dress like a thug, expect to get treated as one !! :mad:
Demeanor means a lot to me regarding my own personal situational awareness and safety around these thugs.

I bet the same people commenting above saying not to generalize on peoples' appearance and clothing style take special precaution around biker-types or take notice of certain ethnic/religious groups when boarding an aircraft. Situational awareness means readily identifying whom or what may pose an immediate threat. If you're too sensitive or politically-correct to properly use SI, then there's no hope for you.


mom & dad - don't let your kids outta the house looking like a gangsta thug no matter how cool they think it is!

Don Lu
August 10, 2008, 04:17 PM
I bet the same people commenting above saying not to generalize on peoples' appearance and clothing style take special precaution around biker-types or take notice of certain ethnic/religious groups when boarding an aircraft.

I take notice of everyone..and just like you saidDemeanor means a lot to me regarding my own personal situational awarenessDemeanor and dress are not the same, I dont think I need to go into detail about that. But if I see someone who is acting in a way I feel is threatning, then my guard is up..but just b/c of your ethnicty, dress style or if you like to ride a motorcycle ? Situational awareness and blindly lumping peolpe in groups are not the same..there is nothing proper about that

anythingshiny
August 10, 2008, 04:24 PM
I'm going to respectfully disagree.

Granted EVERYONE gets a chance to prove themselves to me, once. I'm sure there are a lot of folks out there who are bagging, getting their swerve on and talking smack with their buddies, and thumping loud music that rattles widonws 2 blocks away, who are ok folks on the inside. But the 'duck' rule rings valid 99% of the time.

If you emulate a dress/lifestyle, be it hiphop/gansta or white arayan with red boot laces, you are telling me that is how you want to be percieved.

I am NOT saying everyone should be in khaki's and a polo..by ANY means...i wear a kilt most of the time...BUT in the world of situational awareness, my bell gets rung from a distance by dress and mannerism. Prejudice, you might ask? In a sense it is..to pre judge..to make a determination based on visual cues alone.

And yes, current gangs are often full of guys with MOUT experience. Not everyone in the military is a stand up, patriotic, flag waving Beaver Cleaver.

I try to assume that everyone has as much or more training than I...that way I can justify more training road trips to the spousal unit!

B. Lahey
August 10, 2008, 04:26 PM
Big pants mean nothing, look for the jailhouse tattoos.

Crow61
August 10, 2008, 04:27 PM
If someone wants respect and to not be treated as a hoodlum, they should not dresss like a thug, rapper, or gangbanger. I do not care who they may work for the majority of criminals on the streets dress like this and ALL who dress like this will be looked down upon. That is just the way it is.

LanceOregon
August 10, 2008, 04:33 PM
A recent study showed that criminals who shoot police officers are better trained and have more experience with firearms than the officers that they shot. So some gangbangers are definitely serious when it comes to being good at shooting their guns.

Here is a link to this report:

http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_cop_killers.asp

.

Creature
August 10, 2008, 04:38 PM
demeanor And Dress Are Not The Same

Look For The Jailhouse Tattoos



Bingo!

All part of situational awareness. Demeanor is far more telling than dress.

Don Lu
August 10, 2008, 04:41 PM
If I live in an area where everyone dresses this way..does that mean I should spend my entire life in high alert. probably not, but If I did live in an area like that, Id probably know that dress is not a cause for alarm. Onthe other hand just b/c you think the walk like a duck thing is accurate 99% of the time doesnt mean your right...I'd be willing to bet that aside from "pre-judging" these individuals, you dont do any type of follow up to see if in fact they were "ducks" again..its something that you feel good saying. But its still not true.the majority of criminals on the streets dress like this Does that imply that the majority of people that dress like this are criminals..all KKK members are christian to my knowledge..are all christians are KKK members ? Its silly..really.

Mannlicher
August 10, 2008, 04:43 PM
crow61Do you all think that the gangbangers and other criminals practice and or train with their guns?

You would think that these are folks who cannot legally own a gun, so where do the shoot?

Do they clean their guns?

Anybody else ever thought about this?

first off, they 'practice' shooting AT folks. Much more realistic than punching paper. Clean or dirty, guns will fire
note that gang shooters are not mindful of what is behind their target, they don't give a rat's behind about the legality, and they are not concerned with civil suits down the road.
Gangs work with terror and disparity of force, AND, probably the most important aspect so far as we are concerned, THEY determine the timing of the attack.
The attacker is ALWAYS at an advantage in a gun fight.

Don't dismiss 'gang bangers' as ineffective clowns. That will get you killed if you ever have the misfortune to run into one.

anythingshiny
August 10, 2008, 04:53 PM
Don't get me wrong. I am generally a VERY open fellow and have no harbored ill will toward anyone on what I would call a 'racial or religious bias'. But I HAVE lived on the 'wrong side of the tracks' where a certain color of clothing will get you beat down or shot...regardless of whether or not you are playing the game.

It is a real combination of action and perception that sends up a flag. That does not mean the tidy, middle aged 'buffy and tad' flavored golf goof is NOT gonna try to take my car by force...but you cannot ignore the reality of crime and the general appearance of those who commit the crimes.

Erik
August 10, 2008, 04:56 PM
The link LanceOregon provided, a synopsis of a more detailed FBI report from a few years ago, is worth a read. It is current enough, and relevent enough.

It is all relevant, but some exerpts for those who won't take the time:

Familiarity:
Several of the offenders began regularly to carry weapons when they were 9 to 12 years old, although the average age was 17 when they first started packing "most of the time." Gang members especially started young.

Nearly 40% of the offenders had some type of formal firearms training, primarily from the military. More than 80% "regularly practiced with handguns, averaging 23 practice sessions a year," the study reports, usually in informal settings like trash dumps, rural woods, back yards and "street corners in known drug-trafficking areas."

More than 40% of the offenders had been involved in actual shooting confrontations before they feloniously assaulted an officer. Ten of these "street combat veterans," all from "inner-city, drug-trafficking environments," had taken part in 5 or more "criminal firefight experiences" in their lifetime.

One reported that he was 14 when he was first shot on the street, "about 18 before a cop shot me." Another said getting shot was a pivotal experience "because I made up my mind no one was gonna shoot me again."

Concealment:
The offenders said they most often hid guns on their person in the front waistband, with the groin area and the small of the back nearly tied for second place. None regularly used a holster, and about 40% at least sometimes carried a backup weapon.

Shooting Style:
Twenty-six of the offenders [about 60%], including all of the street combat veterans, "claimed to be instinctive shooters, pointing and firing the weapon without consciously aligning the sights," the study says.

"They practice getting the gun out and using it," Davis explained. "They shoot for effect." Or as one of the offenders put it: "[W]e're not working with no marksmanship... We just putting it in your direction, you know... It don't matter... as long as it's gonna hit you…if it's up at your head or your chest, down at your legs, whatever... Once I squeeze and you fall, then... if I want to execute you, then I could go from there."

Hit Rate:
More often than the officers they attacked, offenders delivered at least some rounds on target in their encounters. Nearly 70% of assailants were successful in that regard with handguns. (Efforts of offenders and officers to get on target were considered successful if any rounds struck, regardless of the number fired.)

Davis speculated that the offenders might have had an advantage because in all but 3 cases they fired first, usually catching the officer by surprise. Indeed, the report points out, "10 of the total victim officers had been wounded [and thus impaired] before they returned gunfire at their attackers."

Just as cops generally blade their body to make their sidearm less accessible, armed criminals "do the same in encounters with LEOs to ensure concealment and easy access."

Mind-set:
Thirty-six of the 50 officers in the study had "experienced hazardous situations where they had the legal authority" to use deadly force "but chose not to shoot." They averaged 4 such prior incidents before the encounters that the researchers investigated. "It appeared clear that none of these officers were willing to use deadly force against an offender if other options were available," the researchers concluded.

The offenders were of a different mind-set entirely. In fact, Davis said the study team "did not realize how cold blooded the younger generation of offender is. They have been exposed to killing after killing, they fully expect to get killed and they don't hesitate to shoot anybody, including a police officer. They can go from riding down the street saying what a beautiful day it is to killing in the next instant."

"Offenders typically displayed no moral or ethical restraints in using firearms," the report states. "In fact, the street combat veterans survived by developing a shoot-first mentality."

Don Lu
August 10, 2008, 05:02 PM
Making a mental note of different clues is not the same as saying someone who dresses a certain way doesnt deserve to be treated like everyone else based on dress alone which is what the OP'er has impliedIt is a real combination of action and perception that sends up a flag. exactly..and action should hold more weight than just what your perception of a certain dress style, racial or religious group ect...I also grew up on the wrong side of the tracks..You, having lived on those sides of the tracks know it wasnt a majority of people who made it the wrong side of the tracks..you also know that for the most part people on that side of the tracks dressed simularly. So Id think since you have first hand knowledge that appearance wouldnt hold such weight. It doesnt matter if we are talking trailor park, ghetto, latino barrio...people in certain area will dress simularly for different reasons...bubba who works construction will dress the same way as his brother Hoss who is a meth head and steals from his brother bubba to support his habit. Action and demeanor before appearance is all Im saying.

anythingshiny
August 10, 2008, 05:11 PM
no worries...i think we are all really on the same page.

Don Lu
August 10, 2008, 05:13 PM
I agree...we may be using different words to say the same thing with different emphasis on certain points.

Crow61
August 10, 2008, 06:40 PM
Don Lu, your profile says that you are in GA. Have you driven through Atlanta lately?

Don Lu
August 10, 2008, 08:14 PM
of course .....all the time.

NotAMonte86
August 11, 2008, 12:48 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgwfVJIoBNM

Video link to gang members in the military. Pretty scary. They are skilled in firearms (handguns and long guns), hand-to-hand combat, tactics, plus some get real-world gunfighting experience.

We need to be much more harsh when dealing w/ gang members. They have no place in society.

Socrates
August 11, 2008, 04:38 AM
HMMM. You pretty much sign away your rights when you join the military. I wonder if they go after these guys for RICO violations, or what???

Brian Pfleuger
August 11, 2008, 11:00 AM
Do you all think that the gangbangers and other criminals practice and or train with their guns?

You would think that these are folks who cannot legally own a gun, so where do the shoot?

Do they clean their guns?

Anybody else ever thought about this?


The one thing I have thought about: They have the advantage of not caring about taking a life.

The offenders were of a different mind-set entirely. In fact, Davis said the study team "did not realize how cold blooded the younger generation of offender is. They have been exposed to killing after killing, they fully expect to get killed and they don't hesitate to shoot anybody, including a police officer. They can go from riding down the street saying what a beautiful day it is to killing in the next instant."

Creature
August 11, 2008, 11:17 AM
You pretty much sign away your rights when you join the military. I wonder if they go after these guys for RICO violations, or what???

Honorable discharge, other than honorable discharge, or dishonorable discharge...it doesnt matter much either way.

tackdriver
August 11, 2008, 12:17 PM
I write about courts and cops for a living. Where I work, we are seeing an increase in gang violence.
Here is what I see:
1. People are too quick to dismiss gang members as "just kids." When someone wearing a red hat shoots at someone with a blue hat, he's a gangbanger and I treat him the same way I would treat a mama Grizzly bear. I don't care how old he is.
2. The "shoot for effect" thing is right on. One guy unloaded 15 rounds into a house in a driveby and only hit THE HOUSE five times. Where did the other 10 bullets go? Another hit a cabbie in the head in crossfire trying to shoot rival gang members. They might not hit what they're aiming at, but it makes them more dangerous, IMHO.
3. Getting a gun is easy, even for kids 12-15.
4. It's exactly right that shooting someone from 10 feet doesn't take as much skill as one might expect. In another incident, a guy shot a gas station clerk. First shot went wide. Second hit the guy in the forehead.
5. Caliber debates we have on here are the biggest, dumbest waste of time: In 8 years, I have seen people killed with a .25 auto up to a .45 acp. I have seen people wounded (and permanently disabled, mind you) with a .380 and a .40 S&W to the head. In the .45 acp killing, the woman had a contact wound and the bullet still did not exit her head. Saw the same thing with a male victim and a .38 spl, where the guy got up and started walking around and only died because he bled out.

mpage
August 12, 2008, 02:46 PM
Twenty-six of the offenders [about 60%], including all of the street combat veterans, "claimed to be instinctive shooters, pointing and firing the weapon without consciously aligning the sights," the study says.

What does that mean? These clowns can claim anything, but what does that mean? That they're so good that they allegedly can just point shoot?

"They shoot for effect." Or as one of the offenders put it: "[W]e're not working with no marksmanship... We just putting it in your direction, you know...

Uh huh. I think that study is a lot of hot air, if you actually consider what these jerks are saying. About the only thing relevant is that many of them apparently have shot people before.

Socrates
August 13, 2008, 12:04 AM
I go into spots where this is a serious problem. I'd like to take at least two guns. All of a sudden the 5 shot .357 doesn't look so hot...

S

Edward429451
August 13, 2008, 08:25 AM
I'm more intimidated of LEO's than gangbangers ! They seem to always want my family's money and have radios.:(:D

Doesn't matter. My CWP instructor told us, "If a guy comes at you with his fists, you gotta assume he's Joe Lewis. If a guy comes at you with a knife, you gotta assume he's an expert, including throwing it. If a guy comes at you with a gun, you gotta asume he's Wyatt Earp." In other words, NEVER underestimate your opponent.


+1

A lone bager doesn't intimidate me in the least. They're at my outdoor range a lot. Demeanor & body language tells you everything. A crowd of bangers may make me want to clear out of the area, mob mentality. Even if you can spot the leaders, the odds are still grim. Better to slip quietly away.

Crow61
August 13, 2008, 11:54 AM
I have a friend that has used the range at the Tuskeegee National Forest, but no longer does because of those who frequent that range.

Borch
August 18, 2008, 01:43 PM
I have read articles recently that would suggest that more and more criminals are indeed practicing with their weapons. Not to mention, as has been previously stated in this thread, the number of military memebrs who are returning to their premilitary criminal ways with all of that combat experience weapons training. The show "Gangland" on the History channel just did a show about gangs in the military and they showed a security video of a "gangbanger" in a shootout with the cops in Ceres, CA. The "gangbanger" was displaying proper grip on his weapon and employing effective use of cover and concealment and he ended up out manuevering and effectively pininng down 2 cops while his buddies made their escape.

Tuckahoe
August 18, 2008, 02:52 PM
The scary thing is the thug with the sks or glock that will fire forever without ever being cleaned.

Independence
August 18, 2008, 03:40 PM
The thug or the gun?

fjk1911
August 18, 2008, 05:21 PM
Since they don't travel alone in this here neck of the woods, <deleted> seldom do anywhere it seems, the real scary thing is having a Chebbyload of them each emptying a Glock mag in you and your family's direction. That is a lot of spray and pray firepower and you have that damn odds thing working against you.

Gotta use your brain as much as possible and steer clear. Then again we had another home invasion up here over the weekend. Seems like a new hobby for these punks.

Regards.

Borch
August 19, 2008, 10:30 AM
So far they seem to mainly be shooting at each other here. I say we teach them all how to shoot and let them at each other. Sounds like good natural selection/population control if you ask me.

fjk1911
August 19, 2008, 11:02 AM
Today's news:

Ronney "Venezuela" Vargas was gunned down about 3:30 a.m. Saturday after the dispute with a group of men who fled the scene in a white car.
Police say the 20-year-old Vargas was shot once in the torso. The three-time Golden Gloves champion was pronounced dead at the hospital.
"He had a future," said his distraught father, German Vargas, according to the New York Daily News report. "They didn't just kill a boxer, they killed a champ."
According to the Daily News report, Vargas was pistol-whipped and then shot after the men became enraged when they noticed Vargas chatting with their girlfriends.
"It was a dispute over some females," a police source told the Daily News. "He talked to the wrong girls, and the boyfriend didn't like it. It was senseless. Stupid."


Hard to beat the odds when they are stacked against you.

fjk1911
August 19, 2008, 11:10 AM
Plus another home invasion locally - three punks knowing someone was home. I mean burglarizing a house when no one is home is one thing, but intentionally invading is another and obviously is meant to do harm.

The Tourist
August 19, 2008, 11:14 AM
I live in a small bedroom community outside of Madison, Wisconsin. We have had a large influx of drug crime, guns in schools, guys ridin' four, guys with nine cell phones, lower rent apartment complexes becoming crime havens, you know the obvious and the trend.

Our bangers are what I call "the second string." And that has pretty much been the case here since the early 1970's. We don't get the really tough, professional thugs. We get the incompetent guys who cannot survive in Chicago. Or we get the wannabees who run errands for the truly bad guys.

For example, an Hispanic gang left a tag on a then recently closed restaurant in our East Towne Mall area. The owner was trying to sell/rent the building to someone else, so he painted over the tag. There has been no more graffiti, or a replacement tag on the building now in almost one year.

Yikes, in some places you can get shot for painting over a gang symbol.

Our losers don't confront cops, bikers, business owners, or anyone else they think is armed or will report them. They hang in the darker shadows of the corners of major stores' parking lots.

If I was project a firefight in our city, I would opine that it will be an angry citizen shooting a "banger" on the first area encounter, and not the other way around.

(BTW, several years ago our drug selling bangers were using the telephone and lobby of our library for dealing. A female worker, alone, tossed them out. They went across the street to the park, and the beat cop tossed them out.)

Borch
August 19, 2008, 11:32 AM
Tourist-

My area used to be a lot like that. All of the "gangstas" were what we thought were the "2nd string" or they were little white kids playing wannabe. But be forewarned, we found out that the "2nd string" was more like the "expeditionary force" or the "recon scouts" if you will. We are now drowning in big time Chicago gangsters who came up here to dominate the once wide open drug market, and the violent crime in this area has increased tenfold in the last five years. So be warned, this is what is coming, start pressuring your local LAWE to get on the stick or you may experience similar results

The Tourist
August 19, 2008, 12:33 PM
Borch, I do hope you are wrong. The only solace I take from this condition is the time frame this has taken.

As I mentioned, this situation started in the early 1970's. There really is only one bad area in Madison, and they bulldozed much of that housing. They're going to close another complex when the Madison City Council approved the move about two weeks ago.

(The idiots were stupid enough to open a ribs restaurant across the street from my club's old tavern. It went bankrupt and moved.)

I don't think the Madison area (and outlying towns) are fertile ground for this type of crime. Yes, we have pockets, but we're more the area for falafels and aroma therapy shops.

I was headed east one afternoon when a car riding-four left the Madison city limits. They weren't one hundred yards into the Sun Prairie town limits when a County Sheriff pulled them over.

Granted, bangers aren't the brightest criminals in the pyramid, but it's been +30 years and they still don't have enough revenue to buy those fancy cars you see on cop shows.

fjk1911
August 19, 2008, 12:58 PM
Not only do they not have fancy cars with the big money they make peddling drugs, etc. but they still live at home wit mama.

My wife taught in the inner city for ten years (1/3 black, 1/3 white trash, 1/3 everything else). She carried a 300KV stun gun with her at all times just in case. The funny thing was / is that the kids actually respected her for wanting to help them learn - she is very dedicated. The main beef with the kids was with the administration who just wanted them in and out of the school and didn't care what they did next - yes, the admin staff was white. Go figure.

Now she is in an all white school where the kids are way more disrespectful, the teaching not very cohesive and the admin more worried about building new fancy schools. She hates it there and is thinking of just quitting whereas she never felt that way at the slum school. Quite a paradox.

Borch
August 19, 2008, 03:32 PM
Tourist, I hope I'm wrong too. Believe me, no one hopes I'm wrong about the pattern you are seeing where you live compared with our experience more than me.

The Tourist
August 19, 2008, 03:51 PM
Borch, the one concern I have about our local issues is the the one word you used..."pattern."

If this is a way that big city gangs infiltrate an area, our experience could only mean the current breed of second string bangers are just incompetent, even for a street gang.

If that is true, and your depiction is right, then sooner or later a big wig from Chicago is going to re-populate the crop of idiots we have now with tougher and more efficient drug dealers.

Granted, there will be a period of "adjustment" while local gangs, Hispanic gangs, Asian gangs and Sicilians fight over the dirty little crown.

And as entertaining as that might be, we all know the answer to that scenario:

A tough, successful, connected under-boss from Chicago will bring big city crime to Madison, so entrenched that any action of our local PD will be too little too late.

Borch
August 19, 2008, 04:30 PM
I'm not talking about the mob taking over or anything like that. I'm talking about gangs like the Vicelords and the Gangster Disciples, the Bloods, MS-13, Shotgun Crips, Latin Kings, Vatos Locos, etc. I wasn't referring to super organized crime, well except for MS-13 they're organized. I was referring to street gangs and the crimes they bring with them. Street crimes like muggings, drive- by shootings, home invasions, carjacking, stabbings, dope dealing, etc. And believe it or not it takes a while and they are not super obvious about it. The first time I heard about gangs moving into our area was in 1991, and form 1991 unitl about 2002 nobody took it seriously. Now it's 2008 and we've had 5 gang related shootings in less than 6 months, assaults and stabbings are near daily and there are areas of town that I won't go after dark unarmed. I wouldn't even go to the county fair without my weapon and an extra mag. Cocaine and crack are prevalent among kids and young adults between 15 and 24 and at risk youth is now described as kids ages 10 to 13. The worst part about it is that the general citizenship in our community still think it's a very safe place to live. They think all this is a fad that will blow through and not harm our beautiful peaceful city. Well this fad is approaching 20 years and just becasue no has been killed in a verified gang homicide does not mean that we don't have a problem. And, yes, by the time the general population wakes up to smell the coffee it will be far too late to easily rid ourselves of this trash, it may already be too late.

The Tourist
August 19, 2008, 04:43 PM
I'm not talking about the mob taking over or anything like that. I'm talking about gangs like the Vicelords and the Gangster Disciples, the Bloods, MS-13, Shotgun Crips, Latin Kings, Vatos Locos, etc. I wasn't referring to super organized crime, well except for MS-13 they're organized.

So was I. In fact, many of these groups you mention have already come and gone here. The MS-13 was the club that got there tag painted over.

There is some new organization called 'four corners' or something like that. They had been tagging in the usual slum areas. From the actions that followed, they were here for about four months and died of loneliness.

Actually, if I had to pick a group, I'd pick the Mob. My Dad said that when they ran Vegas the streets were clean and you could leave valuables out in the open in your hotel room.

Perhaps that's the problem. People respect the Mob and the Angels. But any Chicago operation that can't even keep a ribs joint from bankruptcy just doesn't have any management skill.

Borch
August 19, 2008, 08:24 PM
Maybe you live in an area that they have, for whatever reason, deemed to be not the right area for them. Unfortunately I live in area that they seem to love because the problem seems to continually grow. Personally I think the general citizenry's ignorance or reluctance to admit that there is a problem helps to perpetuate the problem.

evan1293
August 20, 2008, 04:09 AM
Do gangbangers practice?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsT-EMhJqyI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAEi4VrTgrU


There are full versions of 2 pac's range session on youtube under "2pac at the range."

If other gang bangers shoot anything like this guy did, I don't think we need to be too worried. :rolleyes:

Borch
August 20, 2008, 11:33 AM
Tupac wasn't a gangster, he was a recording artist portraying what he thought a gangster was. Unfortunately, his portrayal brought about generations of little wannabe thugs who think they are tough because they listen to Tupac and have a gun.

The real gangs, the ones who are serious about selling dope and protecting their money and the areas the deal in, the ones who take their fueds with rival gangs seriously and are truly willing to die over a street name or a color, the ones who have grown up in that life for real and been in and out of jail their whole lives and been to prison and watched their families and friends die in what they perceive as a glorious fashion don't act or shoot or live like Tupac.

Tupac was a showman plain and simple.

The Tourist
August 20, 2008, 12:08 PM
I truly believe that "gangstas" are simply the flavor of the decade. Just like the brand of crime that ran through the 'boomer population, gangstas will have their season.

The biggest issue is that they're not really that bright. In fact, they are downright stupid. In a very real sense, we ought to stay out of their way, give them ammunition and let them exterminate themselves.

They can't even put on a music awards show without shooting someone.

When the movie "The Godfather" first came, rumors spread that the real Mob guys went to that movie, laughed, and then debated just exactly which character in the movie respresented them. A banger movie produces a new street war.

This happens to such an extent that a documentary several years ago interviewing African-American women of that age demographic reported that they couldn't find men of their age. They were dead or in prison.

The tragic commentary of the collective life-span of these people is horrific. If you want a banger to live longer, send him to prison. He has a better chance of not being killed, and he gets better food and health care. It reminds me of wildlife, like tigers, who stand a better chance in zoos than roaming free. Horrible.

They have no parallel to a man like Sonny Barger, who is universally accepted and has kept a relative peace for almost 40 years. In fact, I sometimes opine the future when he passes away. He has been sick, and it's beginning to show.

Admittedly, crime is a part of our culture, from colonial highwaymen, to Jesse James, to Al Capone, to the Bloods and the Cripps.

But when you shoot a man and his family over the color of a hankerchief you have condemned that ideology to a quick trip to the trash-bin of history.

Borch
August 20, 2008, 12:47 PM
I wouldn't say Sonny Barger has kept a relative peace for 40 years. Lets not forget about the Angels/Mongols war in the mid to late 90's or the ongoing fued between the Angels and the Outlaws and their allies the Sons of Silence. Just because 1%'ers are much less out in the open about their business does not mean they aren't conducting business as usual, including violent business.

bds32
August 22, 2008, 09:29 AM
Practice?? A hard core gangster will have a gun readily accessible at all times. He may not do alot of shooting but you can bet he practices daily on getting the weapon into action by practicing his draw and presentation. This is much more than your average police officer or armed citizen does. These guys are survivalists as well as predators. They know they can easily be gunned down by a rival gangster at any moment if they let their guard down. They've got "eyes in the back of their heads." They are always looking for potential threats as well as opportunities to take what they want. It's the law of the jungle, survival of the fittest.

The debate in this thread about clothing as an indicator was interesting. I say to the folks who judge based on clothing, nothing wrong with that. You are following your instincts and making decisions that protect you and your family. Be careful not to exclude a predator because he doesn't fit your image of a bad guy. As far as the folks who think this is wrong, you are following your conscience on the matter but young criminals immulate what they see with hard core gangsters and gangland rap videos. Just about every young criminal associated with the gang lifestyle that I've seen in the past 14 years was wearing the type of clothing that has been associated with them: loose fitting, oversized, baggy, and/or sports jerseys. Maybe the duck theory has some validity. Nothing wrong with being cautious when coming across folks similarly attired.

Chui
August 22, 2008, 09:56 AM
Interesting posts. I'd say a person's appearance is a "dead giveaway" of his/her mindset. Then his/her mannerisms and speech patterns. Since I don't have the time/take the time to indulge in conersations with random strangers if you look the part of a villain I'll assume that either you WISH to be looked upon that way or you are. Game. Set. Match.

I've spent a lot of time in New Orleans, LA, Atlanta, GA and Detroit, MI and, yes, "they all seem to dress like that": low class Blacks, White and Latinos. Self-respecting individuals will not dress with their pants hanging below their arses and shirts 4X too big.

The range I work in I do find myself treating those who look like human waste different than the normal American person. How can you not? It's generally these guys you have to explain to them several times proper firearm handling skills because they don't listen. They are also the ones who make everyone else feel a bit uncomfortable with their outlandish dress and mannerisms.

Being the only Black person behind the counter they inevitably come to me - whether they are low class Black, low class White or low class Hispanic - and for the life of me I don't know why. I mean, the owner calls me Carlton (from the Fresh Prince show... :) ). I'm a lot tougher on them than anyone else who are probably trying not to appear "racist" I guess.

Just last weekend "Ray Ray" and "Shanikwa" come in. He could hid a baby on his hip his pants are so large and she looks like she ran into a brace of Jack Russell Terriers (rips all over her jeans). No worries. We ask that you fill out a waiver - read each question and initial. Of course, "Ray Ray" objects claiming to have "been here a million times". I tell him he cannot go out unless it's filled out. I turn my back and he's just initializing without reading as is his vampirella companion. I stopped them and told them that if they don't read it they can leave as they "were a liability to themselves AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, to everyone else here."

The left.

I was glad.

Unfortunately, I'm the only one who'll take such a stand with them. And it happens with all groups White, Hispanic and the "ubber macho" Chaldeans. I don't get it.

I especially keep my ears up when the gangsta dressed personnel arrive.

Of course, some of them are what I call "urban dressers" who end up being ery "cool" guys and gals; they just have weird tastes for clothing. So you truly cannot judge a book by it's cover but you'd be foolish to assume a guy who wishes to display an open acceptance of Satanism would not hurt you. That is one instance where the owner asked him if he ever comes back into the store dressed as he is he'd throw him out. Bravo!

tdrizzle
August 26, 2008, 03:08 PM
I remember reading that back in the days of Chief Bouza in Mpls in the 80s they didn't want to acknowledge a gang problem for fear of being accused of racism, so the bangers and dealers were allowed to flourish unchecked and become entrenched on the north and south sides.

More recently the southsiders have seen their territory encroached upon by something more effective than community policing-gentrification. Lots of the older turn of the century homes with gingerbread trim are being bought and rehabbed by 30 something couples, squeezing some of the lowlifes to the north side. Unfortunately, there hasn't been much turnaround up there, and many of Mpls' homicides take place inside that approx 2x4 mile area.

I'm lucky enough to live in a decent neighborhood in St Paul, but an old GF is on the edge of the north side, and when visiting her, it seems like a good idea to carry something (not that I don't otherwise) in case things go bang in the night (and not in the good way).

dr.j
August 26, 2008, 10:50 PM
There are a ton of gang members that have extensive military training. Some gangs actually require that their potential members make good grades in high school, graduate, and then enlist in the marine corps. The evidence can be found spray painted all over U.S combat zones. I've never been to Iraq, but I have seen quite a few pictures on the news of Chicago based gang signs painted in Baghdad. Also, the smart gangsters,and yes they exist! don't always dress like stereotypes so that they won't be targeted by law enforcement. The way a person looks or dresses has very little to do with their actions. I know a lot of harmless people who look fairly intimidating, and some of the most dangerous folks I have had the misfortune of meeting wear very nice suits. Whoever posted this original thread comes off as fairly ignorant. Of course gangsters clean their guns, are you f#@&ing joking! Their lives depend on their guns more often than most people, and yes they clean them. Plus shooting a gun is not rocket science. It is a skill that virtually anybody can learn with enough practice. The bottom line in this debate is that gang members come in a variety of forms. They could be drug addicted thugs with a dirty revolver, or they could be ex-marine expert marksmen that could kill you with a set of keys. It is fairly hard for the average person to tell what another person has been trained in by looking at them, so it is best to always assume that any assailant is better trained than you are, even if they aren't.

chrisp0410
August 27, 2008, 01:51 PM
I hate to see the use of stereotypes to classify someone's threat potential. Capabilities and skill levels transcend a person's occupation and wardrobe choices.

Chrisp0410

Stevie-Ray
August 27, 2008, 08:56 PM
You would think that these are folks who cannot legally own a gun, so where do the shoot?They could shoot at any number of ranges. Generally, all they need is a DL. Nobody seems to ask if the weapon is legal.

Ruthless4christ
August 28, 2008, 01:14 PM
Well not sure about asian/black gangs but alot of the leaders in the latin ganges both on the east, and west coast are from latin america, and those latin counterparts Are completely capable firarms trainers, many of them having gone through special forces training.

Down here in central america many people are upset with the deportations, because many gang members from here are being sent back after being in hiding in the us for so long.(thats kinda funny huh?) i refuse to believe that they were not showing the ropes to there counterparts over here.

fixxervi6
August 28, 2008, 03:32 PM
I was at the shooting range once when some gangster looking people came up, all tattooed up, pants down below their rears with underwear sticking out. They were a mixed group some of them looking at me like they were expecting me to draw on them etc, just one of them appeard to be friendly, he was acting just fine even tho he looked like an ink shop hood rat with his underwear out.

They made me feel uncomfortable

Not only where they standing back to the point the guns were going off behind me, walking up and down the isle shooting etc, they wouldn't leave the benches alone when the range was cold.

I wouldn't go change my target

They sucked first thing I thought of was I snickered to myself and thought if I see you guys pull on me in the street their only hope of stopping me would be a lucky shot before they ran out of 9mm - but they were practicing.

Did I judge them? you better beleive it

This is the real world where 99% of us are not free loving hippies, you look like a gangbanger, talk like one, dress like one, act like one, I'm going to assume you are one.

I don't assume this based on skin, or even if you don't keep your pants pulled up for that matter, but if it acts walks sounds like a duck, its a duck.

If you don't like that I have some hard news for people to swallow, thats the way life is, thats how most people are, right wrong it doesn't matter, its the way things are.

Don't want to be labeled with the word or the stereotype, then don't display the labels on yourself, thats the hard cold reality folks.

You think its cool to dress like a bike gang member cause you like the way the leather feels and whatever else, be prepared to be treated like a bike gang member cause thats the label you are putting out for the world to see, yes, it really is this simple.

thawntex
August 29, 2008, 09:49 AM
Wearing baggy pants and oversized shirts doesn't make you a gangbanger any more than shopping at Western Warehouse makes you a cowboy. Now that I think about it, perhaps I should go buy some scrubs so that everyone thinks I'm a doctor.

I live in Dallas. People walk right in front of my house every day wearing hip-hop style clothing. If they were all criminals, I'd be in a world of hurt.

I have experienced property crime. Someone stole my bike, and a street sign near my house has been vandalized three times. I have seen no evidence, however, that I live in the midst of well-trained gangs. When some kid on the way to school scribbles something on the street sign, I promptly go and paint over it. No one shoots at me; problem solved.

I find it curious that when people write these assumptions based on clothing, they sometimes follow it up with "that's just the way it is", or "that's the truth, period". Well, maybe that's the truth to you. I need to see some proof before I consider something true. So far, my black neighbors have only proven to me that they like to dress differently.

Mike215
September 1, 2008, 02:00 PM
Can't wait till i'm 21, getting my CCW. I live in montgomery county maryland, we get a bunch of those gangbanging pieces of **** around here alllll the time. I'm about 2 minutes away from DC so its pretty bad when it comes to gangs and a bunch of crimes, quite annoying. I hope i will never have to use one of my guns in a break-in but, if worst comes to worst, i will do whatever it takes to protect myself and my family.

Dihappy
September 4, 2008, 08:54 PM
I especially take notice to any one wearing a Kilt.

You want to be noticed by wearing a kilt, your going to be especially noticed by me.

Brit
September 11, 2008, 07:06 AM
A town here in Florida brought out an ordnance, saw it on TV in passing, don't know the name, help anyone?

The Police were arresting and taking them in, right on the News.

One of my Buddy's lives in Chicago, runs a big Security Company, they work in Malls... "No Shirt-No shoes-Gang clothes" no Service, say the signs.

They have been in Court to defend this, and won. All his staff are armed.

Good news is, they don't run quick.

Stevie-Ray
September 16, 2008, 11:29 PM
I've spent a lot of time in New Orleans, LA, Atlanta, GA and Detroit, MI and, yes, "they all seem to dress like that": low class Blacks, White and Latinos. Self-respecting individuals will not dress with their pants hanging below their arses and shirts 4X too big.
I'd say a person's appearance is a "dead giveaway" of his/her mindset. Then his/her mannerisms and speech patterns. Since I don't have the time/take the time to indulge in conersations with random strangers if you look the part of a villain I'll assume that either you WISH to be looked upon that way or you are. Game. Set. Match.I have to reiterate what was said here. Hopefully Chui doesn't mind the order in which they are posted. What he says here is true. Definitely, if you don't want to be treated like a common criminal, you can go a long way by not trying your best to look like one.

zombie0hour
September 16, 2008, 11:55 PM
Why do you think they must fill a SUV with 20 guys all armed with automatic weapons to hit one guy in a drive by? I beleieve their bullets to kill ratio to be about 2000:1, 2000 being bullets :).

ƒORTE
September 17, 2008, 12:56 AM
Posted by Dr.J:
There are a ton of gang members that have extensive military training. Some gangs actually require that their potential members make good grades in high school, graduate, and then enlist in the marine corps. The evidence can be found spray painted all over U.S combat zones. I've never been to Iraq, but I have seen quite a few pictures on the news of Chicago based gang signs painted in Baghdad. Also, the smart gangsters,and yes they exist! don't always dress like stereotypes so that they won't be targeted by law enforcement. The way a person looks or dresses has very little to do with their actions. I know a lot of harmless people who look fairly intimidating, and some of the most dangerous folks I have had the misfortune of meeting wear very nice suits. Whoever posted this original thread comes off as fairly ignorant. Of course gangsters clean their guns, are you f#@&ing joking! Their lives depend on their guns more often than most people, and yes they clean them. Plus shooting a gun is not rocket science. It is a skill that virtually anybody can learn with enough practice. The bottom line in this debate is that gang members come in a variety of forms. They could be drug addicted thugs with a dirty revolver, or they could be ex-marine expert marksmen that could kill you with a set of keys. It is fairly hard for the average person to tell what another person has been trained in by looking at them, so it is best to always assume that any assailant is better trained than you are, even if they aren't.

Totally agree. Concerning immigrants, MS-13(probably the most dangerous, fastest growing) spawned from El Salvador which has civil wars spanning the last 20 yrs due to periodic coups attempts. The battle tested veterans of these wars have crossed our borders and taken root in Cali and spread east from there. When/if extradited, they start recruitment once back home and along the way back(Nicaragua, Guatemala, etc...) to the US border. These guys have LIVED war in their homeland, a lot to reckon with... They prey mostly on other gangs and their respective territories. Most gangs can't compete with these soldiers.

While I don't claim to be an expert, I have traveled extensively in Mexico, and throughout Central America down to the Darian Gap. I love the people(girlfriend is Guat btw) and cultures down there. This gang shiite is the one thing I detest.

Nnobby45
September 17, 2008, 01:29 AM
Wearing baggy pants and oversized shirts doesn't make you a gangbanger any more than shopping at Western Warehouse makes you a cowboy.


Well, Thawntex I read the post same as you, and it's clear to me that their gangbanger looks may not have been conclusive proof, but their punk like, disrespectful and intimidating behavior was more than a slight indicator.:rolleyes:

Apparently they were intimidating enough that none of the other shooters was willing to discuss the safety rules with them. :cool:

BikerRN
September 17, 2008, 03:41 AM
Gangbangers?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you all think that the gangbangers and other criminals practice and or train with their guns?

I know they do. Usually it's not at a Range, but in the neighborhood, so to speak. Stray dogs and cats aren't as much of a problem. :)

You would think that these are folks who cannot legally own a gun, so where do the shoot?

In the alley behind an Industrial Park, pop a few off at a STOP sign by the Park and in a wash by the Supermarket.

Do they clean their guns?

Some do, some don't. Some don't even know how to load their gun and just shoot what's in the gun until it runs dry. Then they trade it for something else. Others are like soldiers or cops and clean their guns and know what they are doing.

Anybody else ever thought about this?

Not really, I have other pressing matters to concern myself with.
__________________
Crow61

I put my replies in bold between your questions to save space.

Biker

thawntex
September 17, 2008, 09:51 AM
A town here in Florida brought out an ordnance, saw it on TV in passing, don't know the name, help anyone?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080916/od_afp/usfashionjusticeoffbeat

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

-T

Recon7
September 17, 2008, 06:53 PM
And I only thought I had to worry about my gun printing. Baggy pants ban, do city legislators even know the first thing about the constitution?

SGT-MILLER
September 17, 2008, 07:06 PM
IMHO Gangbangers do train with their favorite firearm.

Just never underestimate anybody you may have to face off with.

Chui
October 11, 2008, 12:42 PM
I dunno Recon7, have you and the wannabes and gangsters ever heard of Indecency Laws. No one wants to see your/my/their underwear. If I were a legislator would threaten to charge them as sexual offenses. THAT would get their attentions.

GetYerShells
October 13, 2008, 06:44 AM
I have to say that when it comes to gang-bangers...I agree with the statement "demeanor and dress are two seperate things". You can't make an assumption based on the way someone is dressed.

A good example of this is what our troops are having to deal with in Afghanistan and Iraq. The "thugs" and "cowards" know that they cannot win a conventional war against us so they have taken to blending in with the rest of the crowd. They are not wearing some kind of identifying dress that says "Hey, I am a terrorist! Please shoot me!" They look, talk, and dress like everyone else. The only way that you can tell what someones intent is, is to watch their body language. Do they look nervous? Are their eyes darting around? What are they doing with their hands? What is their facial expression? Is something out of place? This is called situational awareness.

Now, if they pull out an AK-47 and point it in your direction that is a pretty clear indication of what their intent is. What I am trying to say here is that until you can positivley identify what someones intent is then you would never know if they are just an average local trying to live their life, or if they have an RPG or and AK-47 under their cloak. That is why I say that a persons dress doesn't really have anything to do with it.

This is of course my personal opinion and, I do realize their is another side to this story but I think we have Hollywood, and the entertainment business to thank for glamorizing gangs and urban-hip hop attire. This is how most people associate gangs with big baggy cloths.

Un_lucky
October 19, 2008, 12:15 AM
I really hate to see people being judged by appearance. How do you think a 12 year old kid dressed like one of the Brady bunch would do in some of these neighborhoods. Most of us (including myself) have never lived in a truly bad area. The kids in these areas dress the same but most are not true beet in gang members. Believe it or not some people that live in a violent area would like to learn how to use a gun to defend themselves and there family. I don't know why.:confused:

mpage
October 19, 2008, 01:25 AM
The "thugs" and "cowards" know that they cannot win a conventional war against us

I don't know if that's a proper analogy.

Resistance members who choose to fight a guerrilla war against the best equipped military force on earth, are no cowards.

Chui
October 19, 2008, 07:23 AM
I really hate to see people being judged by appearance.

Keep in mind I'm not speaking about a person's race. I couldn't care less. You adorn yourself with "jailhouse tatoos", baggy jeans, oversize shirts, expensive sneakers or boots unlaced, a goofy flat brimmed baseball cap al topped off with gawdy, oversized jewelry reeks THUG to me. I'll not have much tolerance for someoe who CHOOSES to adorn themselves in that manner and I don't expect you to, either. You can add the "race" of the person depending on your breed of general miscreant. Where I am they look like Neopolitan bars: Black, White and something in-between so race doesn't play much of an issue.

fbrown333@suddenlink
October 19, 2008, 07:47 AM
train for the worst and pray for the best!

geologist
October 19, 2008, 08:58 AM
One of my martial arts instructors has been a prison guard in a federal prison for many years. Jack is on the entry team, a firearms and knife instructor and is a very scarey guy to go up against at the dojo.

He says that in prison, many of the inmates practice martial arts, a lot. They practice techniques against police handcuffing, searches etc. There are inmates that scare Jack and his fellow CO's and that is intimidating to me.

His advice to me (35 years of martial arts, karate, boxing, wrestling, jiu-jitsu, judo, TKD - zero criminal activites) was this: Criminals live immersed in a world of violence so it is natural that the scariest of them are very good at it. Civilians like me should stay away from them. If confronted by them, take no chances and do whatever needs to be done to put them down quickly and then run like hel*.

So if they train in unarmed techniques I can only assume that some of them (the most motivated) train in firearms as well.

So following Jack's advice for an univited single, armed criminal in my home, it'll be 2 in the chest and observe the results.

bottom rung
October 19, 2008, 09:19 AM
I live in CT. It really isn't too bad here. We have bad areas, but every state does. Do I judge people by how they dress? Of course! The guy in the baggy pants, massive poncho of a shirt, and jewelry enough to restock Wal-Mart isn't seen as a scary predator, but much rather as a poor fool who has never learned how to spend his money(typically he is walking-sell the bling and get a car!). A girl dressed in clothing that shows a lot of skin doesn't reflect modesty, does it? Then it would only be proper to assume that she isn't the most clean or moral young lady. When I come into contact with such people, I do not shy away. I do not talk down to them. Guys my age recieve a simple greeting, those older than me get a good old fashion "sir". Women who also appear older than me get a "ma'am". My eyes are meant to be used, in many instances they are the first of my senses to detect trouble. That is why I trust them. I do not judge by race, but how an individual keeps themselves says a lot. While I am observing someone, I watch their eyes, and mannerisms. As for their vehicles, I take mental notes on different charcteristics. Part of this is just the way I am. I recognize very strange things about people. I have a photographic memory that seems to be stuck on record. It has never hurt anybody to have their wits about them.

I have been to the range and seen the "urban dressers" come in. Do they make me nervous? Somewhat. What makes me nervous about them is their poor skills. I have seen the magazines fallout of their guns. I have seen them miss the 8 inch bullseye ten feet away. I have seen the guns nearly fall out of their hands under rapid fire. I still smile, and greet them. I ask them when they joined the club and so on.

As for gangs and all that goes with it, I have nothing but disgust. Its premise, its style, its attitude, and music exudes an absolute abominable level of pride and selfishness. The language is foul and fake. Irresponsibility and a child like attitude carried to devilish proportions is celebrated and nutured. Why is this all so bad? Because we are AMERICANS! My allegiance is to my God and Country, not to false "brotherhood" of traitors. We have been blessed with a country that was founded on the BIBLE and a firm belief In God, a nation that was never to be enslaved by tribalism and murder. What made America great WAS our people. What is destroying America? Our people. To all the staff at TFL, My apologies for going off topic.

Dresden2001
October 19, 2008, 11:57 AM
Criminals. . . and gangbangers of all types routinely practice both empty hand defense and gun takeaways in Prison. I have seen it happen more times than I can count. Older Gangster Disciples and Vice Lords training less experienced convicts in cells or in the yard. I have no doubt that some gangbangers practice with firearms, while some CHL holders rarely go to the range.

Rant On:

It's a matter of life and death.

Let's begin with schooling. Great place to start -

http://www.amazon.com/Gun-Digest-Book-Concealed-Carry/dp/0896896110

Then let's talk about clothing. I don't know how to evaluate the number of CHL folks who actually dress for a confrontation, but my guess is that some otherwise prepared CCW holders don't dress for a confrontation, and may not even carry a spare magazine or extra ammo.

I don't go out much without a gun, and I usually wear a Woolrich or 5.11 covert shirt over my concealed firearm. In the winter I cover up with a 5.11 jacket designed for concealed carry. . . I don't own a shootmefirst vest but I do have several fleece vests that do a nice job of concealing my hardware.

Training is key. . . The range I go to allows LE and security personnel to draw and fire from a holster. Since I am retired I persuaded them to include me in that cohort and I train monthly with my handguns and about quarterly with my rifle and shotgun. . . If you go to the same range regularly and demonstrate sound gun handling skills I bet you could talk the RO's into allowing you to practice using realistic methods.

Hey mister can you tell me how to get to Carnegie Hall?? Sure man, practice, practice, practice.

Rant Off.

And remember, let's be careful out there. . .

spikey614
October 19, 2008, 12:37 PM
Criminals were all types of clothing. Hip Hop dressing Gangbangers will steal the money in your wallet. Well dressed Gangsters dress in suites and steal your future. I wonder what the Criminals at ENRON wore. Oh my, that was deep.

You can't really tell what a criminal will wear or what type of music they listen too or were they live.

mpage
October 19, 2008, 04:43 PM
Well dressed Gangsters dress in suites and steal your future. I wonder what the Criminals at ENRON wore. Oh my, that was deep.

We're talking about the generally accepted use of the term gangster, and their use of firearms. This is a firearms forum.

bottom rung
October 19, 2008, 09:31 PM
This topic certainly should encourage many of us to pursue better training. Career criminals are good at what they do. I know I will be looking to step up my own personal training.

mav88
October 20, 2008, 05:53 PM
from what i know from friends, gangbangers test out their guns with a thing called gun blazing. Usually they'll wait till it gets dark and drive or walk somewhere thats isolated and far from people where no one can see and fire their guns usually just a couple of shots and then leave fast. theres an abandoned hospital not far from where i live and it has a couple of bullet holes in the walls which is now covered with graffiti.

U.S.SFC_RET
October 21, 2008, 05:57 PM
Just to let you know from the inside of the military. I retired from the Army in 2005 and that is not too long ago. Its easy to identify your so called gang bangers. The military put a big halt to allowing them in and stopped them from coming in anyway they knew how. Tattoos is one such way. Thos tats are examined closely.
By the way the mentality of most so called "gang bangers never amount to much in the Army. If in the Army they hardly never go into combat arms and if so it is Artilliary. Most go into combat service support. Yes you can get mout training but the training is not as intensive as it would be for infantry as an example. Those guys live and breathe all sorts of training.
The rebellious lot is the ones I would finger in the military. Hardly any use if any use at all and pretty much good for nothing.
The pieces don't fit the puzzle for me. Discipline over time = gangbanger nope I just can't see it.
I have seen alot of people get kicked out for not adjusting. Lack of discipline and so forth.

mpage
October 21, 2008, 08:54 PM
I understand about gangbangers and other ghetto types not being very stable, however the US Army needs people so badly that they're taking anyone. IIRC they've been offering to remove tattoos as an incentive. There's also gang graffiti that's been seen in Iraq.

Sorry to get so off topic.

kpbeckel
October 21, 2008, 09:35 PM
Back to the original topic...I'd say the one place "gangbangers" practice with there guns are one rival gang members. Being born and raised in Chicago, I am all too familiar with gunshots at random times of the day and night going off just to find out on the 9 o'clock news that some one was killed in "gang related shootings". It seemed like in Chicago, the only people who could get their hands on a handgun where gang members or "street thugs".....I mean, God forbid a law abiding citizen can buy something like that.......glad things have changed since I left that gutter city.

mpage
October 22, 2008, 03:14 AM
I doubt that the average thug will ever practice with failure-to-feed drills, shooting drills, tap/rack, etc. Even going to the range may be of marginal benefit if they're not aware of what to concentrate upon.

The only thing going in their favor is the fact that the element of surprise will likely be on their side if they try to victimize you.

alloy
October 22, 2008, 05:57 AM
my distinction:
gangbanger doesnt practice
gangster does

the north hollywood thing might be an example. but the typical 17 year old with a gun and pants around his knees....maybe not so much. like military, or police...takes all kinds. but some folks in those groups are trained/do train. they arent gangbangers, they are serious people, and it would be a mistake to confuse the two types.

of course that is all based on TV.