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dr.j
August 3, 2008, 11:48 PM
I really want a sawed off shotgun, but rather than having to go out to the metal shop and butcher up a perfectly good new shotgun, and risk any sort of legal trouble I would rather buy one. Does anybody know if there is a company that makes these anymore? Or do I just have to shell out the extra tax and do it myself?

Something kinda like this

predator86
August 3, 2008, 11:58 PM
you would have to pay the tax, file the paperwork and get it approved and then have a gunsmith do that for you......

*edit- i want one of those too...but im too poor! maybe because i keep buying guns and ammo....

44 AMP
August 4, 2008, 12:45 AM
There are already made sawed off shotguns in the NFA registry, and they can be found for sale. There are also the old Ithaca Auto&Burgular guns, which were factory made "sawed off" shotguns, also in the NFA registry.

And I believe that even though the machinegun registry is closed, the "other weapons" registry (where sawed off shotguns are) is still open, and you can get new made sawed off guns added to it.

To be legal, you MUST get BATFE approval BEFORE shortening the shotgun below the legal minimum length (either barrel length or over all total length), otherwise you could be arrested. Once you have filled out the forms, paid the tax and gotten written approval, THEN you can cut down your shotgun into a sawed off and be legal.

Either way, you must get govt approval before you can buy or make a sawed off shotgun. If you do not, you will be in posession of an illegal firearm, and subject to all the penalties of law (up to 10 years in prison if convicted, plus fines).

Your best bet for the current rules governing these kinds of firearms is to cointact the BATFE for the answers to your questions.

Good Luck.

dr.j
August 4, 2008, 02:14 AM
Thanks for the info. I always want to be on the right side of the law, so the registration goes without saying. I have never seen one for sale, and wasn't sure if it was possible to buy them due to the nasty reputation they have developed. I have never seen one at a store or show and didn't know if they were still around in any significant number due to the legal issues. I assume that it would cost me an arm and a leg if I did find one, and figured the best option would be to buy a cheaper double barrel like a remington spr220 and get it cut down and have a pistol grip put on, assuming the government lets me of course. Oh and by the way that Ithaca gun looks like exactly what I would want, do you know how expensive they are?

sourdough44
August 4, 2008, 02:48 AM
Just saw off longer than 18" & you will be fine. I did it on a Mod 500. Those pistol grips on shotguns are way over rated. For most a few lighter loads with gloves is all you want to do. My pick would be a full stock with a short barrel.

Bogie
August 4, 2008, 04:55 AM
For truly interesting, find one of the repro side-hammer coach guns... Some of 'em may have "safeties" that you'll need to disable - sigh... Lawyers...

Mine really isn't all that repro tho - It's a Stevens 235 that's cut down to approx. 18". And that's a darn comfy length for a stocked side by side. With exposed hammers.

Now, why do you want exposed hammers?

You can leave it loaded, with the hammers down, and short of the San Andreas mating with the New Madrid, ain't nothin' gonna happen.

And with 'em cocked back, those twin tunnels are pretty darn impressive.

I dunno if anyone has adapted a Car-15 type of stock to a shotgun, but a collapsable (as opposed to foldable) stock could be somewhat interesting. I've fired standard buck loads out of a Mossy "cruiser," and that crap hurts...

Scattergun Bob
August 4, 2008, 07:55 AM
All of the major shotgun manufactures produce "entry" guns for LE use usually 14" & 15". Sometimes those guns or barrels are available for purchase. I think if you posed this question on the NFA page you would get a response.

Remember: with NFA firearms "paperwork" is everything, comply to the letter of the law.


Good Luck & Be Safe

surveyor
August 4, 2008, 09:03 AM
here is a pump,
classified as AOW, (Any Other Weapon) $5 tax stamp

http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

guntotin_fool
August 4, 2008, 09:15 AM
Wilson sells the scattergun tech line now, they are pricey for what they are, but just buying a 14 inch barrel from them, under a AOW tax stamp, should be fairly reasonable.....

dr.j
August 4, 2008, 09:27 AM
To be clear this is not meant to be a practical gun for me (I have those already). This is just for kicks, and I don't want exposed hammers on it, that would be kinda dumb I think, but thanks for all of the advice.

ssilicon
August 4, 2008, 09:27 AM
Just saw off longer than 18" & you will be fine. I did it on a Mod 500.

Mossberg sells a 18.5" barrel for reasonable price. That's what I put on my 500. No mucking of the finish that way plus I have a longer barrel available for hunting if I wish to covert it back.

jmorris
August 4, 2008, 09:29 AM
Fill out a form 1 and send it and $200 to the BATFE and you’ll be able to make your own in 60 days +-.

rogertc1
August 4, 2008, 12:50 PM
Find a Mossberg 500 Bullpup...they go pretty cheap.

444
August 4, 2008, 07:09 PM
"butcher up a perfectly good new shotgun"

Why would you want one if you consider it to be butchered ? Buy a good shotgun and do it right. If you want a side by side, I am sure that you can find someone to do one for you. Pumps and autos are much easier since the barrels are already made and very easy to install. Unless you are prohibited by local or state law from owning a short barreled shotgun or AOW, don't short change yourself by doing the 18" barrel thing. Get exactly what you want the first time and you will enjoy it the rest of your life rather than just talking about it.

Owning a short barreled shotgun is no big deal at all and can be very easily done. It isn't hard. Don't let the people on these boards who have never done it, talk you out of it. Most of what you read about buying NFA weapons on these on-line gun boards is total BS coming from people who don't know anything about it other than what they read on another thread from someone else that didn't know anything about it.

I have two short barreled shotguns as well as that Serbu Super Shorty AOW.
My two SBSs are a Remington 870 that I bought a 14" barrel for and a Browning Auto 5 that I had cut down to 13" and had choke tubes installed. I have thought about getting a double, like your picture but haven't done so yet.

I HAVE seen doubles like that for sale. If you go to websites that cater to NFA weapons, you will see them on occasion. And no, they don't cost an arm and a leg. In fact, they were probably cheaper than getting one made yourself.

Here is one that I found after about five minutes of looking:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=106558026
That looks really cool to me.

dr.j
August 4, 2008, 08:25 PM
444, very helpful, thank you. I'm on good terms with the local law enforcement so the paperwork should not be a problem, and thank you for not simply suggesting that I get an 18.5 inch pump shotgun as many other people have suggested, as I said, I already own one and love it very much. The break action double barrel pistol grip style gun is really what I'm looking for.

And I shouldn't have said butcher, I have a metal shop and feel very confident that I could do a top notch job of sawing a shotgun barrel down to whatever size suits me. I'm also a fairly competent woodworker so converting the stock into a pistol grip should be easy as well. I just wasn't sure if the government would let me do it myself, or if I would have to buy one that already came like that

444
August 4, 2008, 08:35 PM
No, I am no lawyer but as far as I know, once you get the tax stamp back you can feel free to "manufacture" your own.
Again, I don't know that for sure.
However, when you install a new barrel on an 870 or pin a new short upper on an AR15, you are manufacturing an NFA weapon as I understand it so I don't see why it would be illegal for you to cut off a double barrel shotgun.
When you manufacture the weapon, you engrave your name and city on the weapon as the manufacturer, so again, I feel pretty confident that you could manufacture the gun yourself in your metal shop.

Again, that one I posted seems pretty cheap.
You could buy that one and probably take it home for less than $900.

Disclaimer: I try to put this on threads like this: I am not trying to put anyone down with my comments. However, I enjoy owning NFA weapons and think you should too. It is your right to own them. It is perfectly legal. It isn't hard. Don't listen to people telling you about "ALL" the paperwork and "ALL" the hoops you have to jump through and all that BS. Don't let the nay sayers keep you from exercising your right to own an NFA weapon. And if you don't own one and thus have never been through the process: please don't comment on it. I spent many years wishing I could own NFA weapons and never bought one because I listened to all this crap that makes it's way around gun circles. As a result, I never bought any machineguns when they were cheap. If I had one person take the time to explain to me exactly what was involved instead of all the BS I probably would have brought several at a fraction of what I ended up paying.

dr.j
August 4, 2008, 08:47 PM
I'm also not a lawyer, but the way I understand it is that you just need approval from the local sheriff and the tax stamp, but I'm not sure if the gun you showed me falls into the short barrel shotgun (SBS) or the any other weapon (AOW) category. I have heard that a shotgun is technically defined as a gun that is fired from the shoulder, while this gun is not. for example the Serbu Super Shorty falls into the AOW category. It seems like what I'm talking about would too.

http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php.

http://www.serbu.com/dw/nfa.php

The tax on AOWs is only $5 while the SBS tax is $200. I'd much rather pay $5 than $200 for obvious reasons.

444
August 4, 2008, 08:59 PM
The difference is whether or not the gun was manufactured originally (the receiver) without a stock, or not.
If you buy a shotgun at Walmart and want to cut it down, that is a SBS and will cost $200.
If you got a virgin reciever, and built a gun from that without a shoulder stock, it is an AOW.
If you have an AOW, you also can never put a shoulder stock on it. If you have a short barreled shotgun, you can put a pistol grip on it or a shoulder stock and it doesn't matter.

In the examples you are talking about, you are talking about buying a side by side shotgun, cutting it down and cutting off the stock. This is a SBS and will cost you $200.

diginit
August 4, 2008, 09:08 PM
Just saw off longer than 18" & you will be fine. I did it on a Mod 500.

I believe that if a LEO saw that the barrel was sawn, Even to 18"(legal length)
You would still be in possession of an illegal firearm. No front sight, no choke.
Sawed off is Sawed off according to the penal code. I'd check the DOJ website just to be sure before cutting the barrel.

dr.j
August 4, 2008, 09:34 PM
444, So it has everything to do with how the gun was originally produced? I guess it would be best to get the SBS stamp and keep my options open. I think it would be nice to be able to put a shoulder stock on it if the mood should strike me. Plus, better safe than sorry

444
August 5, 2008, 12:11 AM
Well obviously this would be a lot harder to do with the double barrel you are looking at, but you certainly could do it.
The reason it would be harder is just simply the availability of the extra stock. That is the beauty of something like the Remington 870. You can get anything you want for it already made, anywhere. You can get stocks of all descriptions, pistol grips, as well as short barrels. But, I can see why it would be cool to have the double gun. It is a lot more interesting and unusual.

I got my Browning Auto 5 done after seeing pictures of Bonnie & Clyde with their Auto 5s cut off.
The story of my gun is kind of amusing. The gun that lived across the street from me was out in the desert shooting. They see a cardboard box of the type that you get from UHaul to put your clothes in when you move. So, they start shooting at it. AFTER they get tired of shooting at it, they decided to see what was inside. Inside was this Browning Auto 5. They had hit the barrel and dented it badly and grazed the stock several times. So, the barrel was no good anyway so this guy cut it off to 18". I bought it from him for $100 and sent it to Tornado Tech (after getting the tax stamp) and had him cut it off to 13" (as short as the magazine tube) and thread it for screw in chokes. The barrel actually came out shorter than the magazine tube. Now I need to get the stock cut off to 12" and have a recoil pad installed.
It also needs a rear ghost ring sight. I originally asked to have the bead put back on but they told me that there wasn't enough metal left after cutting it off and threaded it for the chokes. So, he put a glue-on front sight on it. Great big tall front sight. So, now I guess I ought to put a ghost ring rear sight on it to go with the front sight.

444
August 5, 2008, 12:19 AM
By the way:
Here is a download that anyone interested in this subject should have. It is the ATF National Firearms Act Handbook. This answers all the questions that have been asked in this thread. After thinking about it I realized how stupid it was for me to not just look up the answers to the questions you had. Manufacturing by non-licensed individuals is covereds as well as AOWs and all that.
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/index.htm

It is written in clear, easy to understand language so you don't need to be a lawyer to understand all of it.

Bill DeShivs
August 5, 2008, 01:04 AM
Diginit
If you're wondering why no one has responded to your post, it's because you have no idea what you are talking about.

dr.j
August 5, 2008, 02:27 AM
good to know,

In my search for more information I ended up finding a company that specializes in this sort of thing. They currently make coach guns like the one I've been talking about in a few different models. They also make tommy gun replicas and all sorts of other fun stuff like that.

does anybody know anything about this company?

http://www.hatchergun.com/sbs.htm

Although I do enjoy a good project, and It would be much cooler, in my opinion, to be able to tell people that I made it myself. Then it would actually be a one of a kind gun.

jmorris
August 5, 2008, 09:32 AM
I'm also not a lawyer, but the way I understand it is that you just need approval from the local sheriff and the tax stamp

You only need CLEO approval if you register the class III to you. I would (had to in my case) form a trust. With a trust you do not need a CLEO signature and when you die the items in the trust transfer to your beneficiary without them having to pay an additional $200 each and having to go through all of the paper work bs again.

Even to 18"(legal length)
You would still be in possession of an illegal firearm. No front sight, no choke.
Sawed off is Sawed off according to the penal code.

If the judges in Kalifornia didn’t golf they would ban the clubs. It’s good not to live there. The DOJ has no problem with this as long as you are legal, that means paper work or 18".

HPH
August 6, 2008, 08:15 PM
Hatcher Gun Company makes them.

Here is his website: Hatcher Gun Company (http://www.hatchergun.com/sbs.htm)

I've seen his guns, and they are nicely done.

Stan_TheGunNut
August 10, 2008, 01:08 PM
If cost is important to you, it's likely far cheaper to just buy a Remington or Stoeger double, get the 200 SBS tax stamp, and chop the barrels yourself.

The Stoeger: MSRP $369+$200 stamp ~$600 total.
http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger_coach_guns.php

Remington Spartan: about the same total price as above.
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/SPR_models/SPR220_side-by-side.asp

Blazerman
August 11, 2008, 12:11 PM
i have a question concerning short barrel shotguns. would i need a class 2 ffl to legally modify a shotgun to a sawnoff? is there still a limit to how many rounds it can carry? i'm interested in purchasing a Sentinel Arms Striker 12 destructive device, a.k.a. "streetsweeper", from www.impactguns.com for 1,499.99. this weapon has a drum magazine and appears to hold at least 30 rounds. there is a disclaimer that says the weapon is available for civilian ownership and that all NFA rules apply. my final question is, if i modify my own shotgun, is there an advantage to leaving it with a full choke, or should i use an improved or modified, and, if so, would it be possible to machine the barrel for interchangeable chokes? any and all answers and info would be helpful, thanks

444
August 11, 2008, 01:01 PM
"i have a question concerning short barrel shotguns. would i need a class 2 ffl to legally modify a shotgun to a sawnoff? NO is there still a limit to how many rounds it can carry? NOi'm interested in purchasing a Sentinel Arms Striker 12 destructive device, a.k.a. "streetsweeper", from www.impactguns.com for 1,499.99. this weapon has a drum magazine and appears to hold at least 30 rounds. there is a disclaimer that says the weapon is available for civilian ownership and that all NFA rules apply. my final question is, if i modify my own shotgun, is there an advantage to leaving it with a full choke, or should i use an improved or modified, and, if so, would it be possible to machine the barrel for interchangeable chokes? YES any and all answers and info would be helpful, thanks"

You would have also gotten extra credit for capitalizing words correctly.




I have a question on this "Streetsweeper". Originally it was NOT an NFA weapon. One day, ATF decided that it was now an AOW and required it's owners to register it as such. I don't know what the original barrel length was, but it was obviously long enough to not require a tax stamp. So, now it's 2008 and you buy a "Streetsweeper" along with the AOW tax stamp. What if you want to cut the barrel off to 12" (or whatever) ?
I would assume it would now have to be registered as a SBS since it has a stock and the barrel is 12" (or whatever). But, how do you handle the fact that it is already in the NFA registry as an AOW ?

djturnz
August 14, 2008, 07:08 AM
Here is everything you ever wanted to know about building or buying an SBS (Short Barrelled Shotgun)
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=80131

Here is a picture of mine, taken with crappy light.


12.5" barrel

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i236/djturnz/100_2058.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i236/djturnz/100_2061.jpg

That hatcher site, even sells a holster for a SxS.




I believe the STREETSWEEPER was classified as a Destructive Device, because it has a bore over .500" and serves no sporting purpose.

I've read that there is a .410 version that was never reclassified.

444
August 14, 2008, 07:15 AM
I don't know, you may be right. Afterall, none of these firearms laws make any sense to me. You would think that if the bore diameter was an issue then the bore diameter of every other 12 guage shotgun in the country would be an isssue. But again, this stuff doesn't really have to be logical for it to be a law. In fact, the opposite is more often the case.

TxGun
August 15, 2008, 12:32 AM
If a double is not an absolute must and cost is not a big issue, here is an alternative that requires only a $5 tax stamp:

http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

diginit
September 1, 2008, 01:26 PM
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member


Join Date: 2006-04-07
Posts: 2,466 Diginit
If you're wondering why no one has responded to your post, it's because you have no idea what you are talking about.

I know there only 2 legal SBS here in Cali, 410 ga. :barf: It's tough to get anything good here. Especially a license. Too many state and local laws. But I don't expect you to know about that. Besides, if you can't hit your target with a modified choke, A sawed barrel won't help. Unless you just can't shoot or enjoy killing innocent bystanders. If you are worried about confined spaces, Use a handgun.

Bill DeShivs
September 1, 2008, 01:39 PM
To my knowledge, shortening a shotgun barrel (within limits) is not illegal anywhere. It's simple gunsmithing. There is no law that says the gun must have a sight.
But nothing would surprise me in California.

Scattergun Bob
September 1, 2008, 02:38 PM
You are correct, no requirement for cutting barrels to legal minimums. No requirement for front sight. Make sure that we meet overall minimum and barrel minimum, and its OK

Good Luck & Be Safe

Hkmp5sd
September 1, 2008, 03:42 PM
I have a question on this "Streetsweeper". Originally it was NOT an NFA weapon. One day, ATF decided that it was now an AOW and required it's owners to register it as such. I don't know what the original barrel length was, but it was obviously long enough to not require a tax stamp. So, now it's 2008 and you buy a "Streetsweeper" along with the AOW tax stamp. What if you want to cut the barrel off to 12" (or whatever) ?
I would assume it would now have to be registered as a SBS since it has a stock and the barrel is 12" (or whatever). But, how do you handle the fact that it is already in the NFA registry as an AOW ?


The Streetsweeper is registered as a Destructive Device (DD), not an AOW. The barrel can be whatever length you desire.

444
September 1, 2008, 04:47 PM
Thanks:
A little wrinkle I never thought of.

FWIW: I don't own one and have no desire to own one, but that question stumped me.

zippy13
September 2, 2008, 04:32 AM
I really want a sawed off shotgun...

Sawed-Off Shotgun -- Remember Ruby Ridge!
If you don't remember, or are too young... The 1992 Ruby Ridge Massacre of the Randy Weaver family is one of the most controversial and widely discussed examples of the abuse of federal power. This case began after Randy Weaver was entrapped, as an Idaho jury concluded, by an undercover Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms agent to sell him sawed-off shotguns.

You definitely don't want to make any mistakes in the paperwork. You may really want a sawed-off shotgun, but do you really want your name in the fed's computer? If I'm not mistaken, submitting sawed-off shotgun paperwork is probable cause for law enforcement to drop by for a visit at any time.

Bill DeShivs
September 2, 2008, 07:22 AM
Zippy
You are mistaken, and very wrong.

444
September 2, 2008, 10:06 AM
"If I'm not mistaken, submitting sawed-off shotgun paperwork is probable cause for law enforcement to drop by for a visit at any time."

You are mistaken. This is an internet rumor that is compeltely and totally false with not a shread of truth. Some things just never die.

zippy13
September 2, 2008, 10:20 AM
Thanks, I stand corrected. Perhaps I was thinking of something California specific -- I'm a little skid-dish ever since they required me to register my Colt target rifle as an assault weapon.

TENWHEELER
May 31, 2009, 10:58 AM
I have included a link to a gentleman who has a license to produce the SBS. He starts with a Baikal shotgun and makes it look really nice. He is located in Boaz, Ky., which is about 20 minutes south of Paducah, Ky.

http://classifieds.vci.net/

Click on the firearms category and then on the link under the Pro section that reads "Baikal Short Barrel Shotgun".


Jonathan

Willie Lowman
May 31, 2009, 01:20 PM
this weapon has a drum magazine and appears to hold at least 30 rounds.
The Striker/Street Sweeper is a revolving shotgun and it holds 12 shells. The "drum" is a cylinder with a spring around it. When fired the cylinder rotates under spring pressure and fires sort of like a double action revolver. It is loaded/unloaded like a single action revolver then the drum spring is wound so it will rotate when the trigger is pulled.