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View Full Version : Apologies for being a bit morbid


speakerguy79
July 30, 2008, 07:05 PM
My hopes and thoughts for all those affected by this tragedy.

I hope this isn't too early, but does anyone know what weapon and/or ammunition was used in the TN church shooting? Two murdered and seven injured at close range with a shotgun is surprising. Birdshot? Bad aim? Details are sketchy everywhere I've looked.

Mods please delete if you feel this is inappropriate.

cavediver27
July 30, 2008, 07:28 PM
This is very inappropriate and doesn't belong here or anywhere for that matter.

WIN71
July 30, 2008, 07:48 PM
Actually it was devastating with 3 rounds fired.

daveydoo
July 30, 2008, 08:22 PM
He just wants to know the fact, I was wondering myself. My heart goes out to those affected. And my continueing prayer to everyone touch by this worthless killing.

speakerguy79
July 30, 2008, 09:05 PM
I was just hoping that those of us who would only use weapons for self defense could learn something from such an incident.

cavediver27
July 30, 2008, 09:17 PM
You were going to learn about self defense from this? ***?

jmr40
July 30, 2008, 09:27 PM
It is a legitimate question and can be answered with taste and tact. Virtually any high profile shooting brings up questions such as this and the answers can help people from law enforcement personel to private citizens make better choices.

RedneckFur
July 30, 2008, 09:45 PM
Knowing what gun and what ammo was used does no harm and no foul. I think its a legitimate, honest question.

daveydoo
July 30, 2008, 09:45 PM
JMR I agreement with your statement. Yes it sad but there is some facts we can learn about and need to look at.

cavediver27
July 30, 2008, 10:04 PM
I hear an ambulance.................hurry up everyone and go stare.

xm21
July 31, 2008, 12:04 AM
Rem. model 48 shotgun,#4 shot according to the Knoxville news sentinel.

predator86
July 31, 2008, 12:13 AM
i wanted to know too....wouldnt it have been interesting if the guy used 8 shot??

speakerguy79
July 31, 2008, 01:05 AM
xm21,

That is #4 birdshot and not #4 buck, correct?

I looked up the Remington 48, it is a 3-shot semiautomatic. I had no idea he killed two and injured seven with just three shots.

xm21
July 31, 2008, 02:16 AM
Birdshot,as the idiot tried to reload from a bag containing 73 more shells he was tackled and restrained with belts by church members.

mikenbarb
July 31, 2008, 09:09 AM
They should have just taken him out back for a little street justice. Why waste the time and taxpayers money on a person like that just to sit in jail, Costing the taxpayers $50,000.00 per year(if not more) to feed him and let him have color TV to watch himself on it.:mad:

jackmcmanus21
July 31, 2008, 09:44 AM
There is nothing wrong with knowing the weapon...knowing what you're up against. This is a firearms forum where self defense using lethal force is often discussed, don't be selectively sensitive. I'd want to know too.

dabigguns357
July 31, 2008, 04:29 PM
+1 for mikendbarb i'de say the same or better yet they know he did it just shoot him.If more states took that approach to something like this then the punishment wouldn't be so cruel and unusual.

w_houle
July 31, 2008, 04:41 PM
Wait, what? A shooting In TN? When?

Shiner Bock
July 31, 2008, 07:39 PM
Knowledge is power but don't chase the ambulance to acquire it.

Sparky33
July 31, 2008, 07:53 PM
Knowledge is power but don't chase the ambulance to acquire it.
I would't call examining an indicent a week or two later "ambulance chasing". I don't know why people get so bent out of shape about things like this. It is no different than engineering tragedies (building and bridge collapses etc). Yes it is awful but what can we learn from this. This is the only way we progress.

Redneckrepairs
July 31, 2008, 08:07 PM
IMHO the OP is not " dancing in the blood " of the victims and has a fair question . Of course the firearm and load used makes a difference . If not we would not have hundreds of threads about caliber and loads . Once again birdshot has been proved as a low percentage " people round " . Thank your deity that the shooter did not choose buckshot or slugs because the seriously injured or dead count would have been much higher given the 2 rounds he got fired into the congregation ( iirc the third round fired went into the cealing or similar , in any event not into people due to the fast action of nearby folks who tackled/disarmed the shooter ) . Now i dont think anyone with a ccw would have made a lick of difference here on the innocents hurt/killed score simply because he was physically addressed before he could shoot three shells and by unarmed folks . Say what you will about cc on campus , church , other places that states may restrict it , but if more Americans behaved like the folks in this church we would not see the body counts we do . There were some real heros in service to thier church that day much as jeannie assam was to hers .

Shiner Bock
July 31, 2008, 08:29 PM
I would't call examining an indicent a week or two later "ambulance chasing".

A "week or two" has not passed. 3 days passed, the dead aren't even buried.

guntotinguy
July 31, 2008, 08:32 PM
Im sorry to hear of such an incident happening,but the reality of this is this only helps the gun grabbing liberals with more intent and ammunition...

johnwilliamson062
July 31, 2008, 11:01 PM
The lesson I have learned from all of these tragedies is to expect the attacker to lack any knowledge about firearms and have chosen pretty much the worst possible tools. Ignorance of the criminal is the only thing the unarmed victims have going for them in these situations. It seems obvious that the people involved with these tragedies are not firearm collectors or shooting enthusiasts.

Lets all be thankful that it has been 42 years since a knowledgeable person went on a premeditated rampage

This tragedy is especially sad, since itpoints to church as a place you need to carry.

Does anyone know if there is a fund set up for the victims and families? I think there are a couple thousand members on these boards, if everyone paypaled a dollar or two that might help out. Consolidating and writing one check under TFL might not be a bad idea either. A pain to organize, but not every battle can be won in the courtroom, and I doubt many would mind donating a few dollars.

Sparky33
August 1, 2008, 01:04 AM
Shiner,

I stand corrected, I thought it occurred on Sunday the 24th not the 31th. I suppose time has really dragged by this week.

Regardless, I still feel that the OP was not in poor taste. Events like this are terrible but I think it is important to learn from such events.

Lets all be thankful that it has been 42 years since a knowledgeable person went on a premeditated rampage

What happened in 1966? I know JFK was '63 and I can't think of what was in '66.

imp
August 1, 2008, 01:13 AM
1966 was when Charles Whitman went nuts and started shooting poeple from the bell tower at that school in Texas.

And I have a theory about why it hasn't happened again in 42 years. Firearms collectors and enthusiasts take pride in their weapons, and are, for the most part, a very responsible group of citizens. Let's pray it never happens again.

predator86
August 1, 2008, 01:50 AM
johnwillianson- i wish i had the cojones you do, yes it is a good thing that nobody with skill has gone on a rampage in 42 years but that does not make it a good reason to assume that every "future gunman" is not knowlegdable....that is just a dumb assumption to make.....

ziggy222
August 1, 2008, 02:41 AM
i fail to see how his #4 shot was lacking.he killed with both shots,the 3rd going into the roof.thats why our military still uses them to this day.thank god the brave people faught back.i understand one of the victims stepped in front of others,giving his life to save them.i don't beleive they should of taken him out back and shot him.i think they should study the wacko before sentencing him to death so we can learn more about what caused this and prevent it in the future.heres some helpful advice i found online for those of you who plan to defend your house with a 12 guage.

If you simply want to know the best defense load, go out and buy: 12 gauge 2 3/4" shell 00 buckshot. You shall live happily ever after, as this is the most effective man-stopping firearm cartridge yet devised by man. I recommend the Federal "Classic" (F127-00), Winchester Super-X (X12RB5) or Remington Buckshot (SP12BK-5PK00) as the best double-ought buckshot defense rounds. One of these rounds is virtually equal to a nine-round burst from a submachine gun, with every round hitting.

Many experienced shooters prefer #4 or #1 buckshot to 00. I really cannot argue, but Lt. Marshall is on record as stating that 00 is superior, both in penetration and stopping power. Good enough for me, but if you have a #4 or #1 buckshot jones, go ahead (Ayoob favors #1). Stay away from 2 3/4" Magnum or 3" Magnum loads, however - the brutal kick of these rounds makes them a bad choice, and you gain nothing in stopping power over the 2 3/4" standard loads. Controllability is important, and standard 12 gauge shells have quite enough kick as it is.

A note on shotgun spread: firing your shotgun does not create a diabolical cone of doom destroying all in its path. If you have a typical defense or "riot" gun with an 18"-20" open-choked "cylinder" barrel, the pellets will spread out about 1" for every yard of range. This means that the spread of pellets fired across a large room (18') will be 6" or so, a circle the size of a coffee cup saucer. At 50 feet, the spread will be the size of a large pizza (16"). Test-fire your shotgun at various ranges, using big white butcher paper targets to get an idea of the pattern you can expect. It is a common misconception that blasting at foes ten feet away will take out two or three of them. The spread at that range is just three inches, so you can see that I meant it when I said that the shotgun must be skillfully aimed and fired just like handguns and rifles. The shotgun is simply more likely to hit - and stop - the attacker.

Slugs are potent manstoppers, but have limited application for self-defense. Slugs have ferocious recoil and often over-penetrate. There are special situations where slugs might be preferred over buckshot (e.g. road-blocks, barricaded foes), but if you are interested in such esoterica I again direct you to Ayoob's masterful tome 'Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun'. This guide is for general civilian readers; policemen, soldiers, and gun enthusiasts should rely on Ayoob's in-depth expertise.

Don't be a knucklehead. Stay away from weirdo rounds like rubber buckshot or neoprene slugs. These are riot-control rounds designed for massed police use against violent mobs. Don't rely on such marginalia to save your life.

Two things to keep in mind about birdshot. The first is that birdshot is as lethal as buckshot at close range. Don't believe for a second that you can just wound someone with birdshot and he'll go on to live another day. If you aren't justified in killing a man, you aren't justified in wounding him, either. Never "shoot to wound." I once again direct you to read Ayoob's 'In the Gravest Extreme' and learn the truth.

The second thing is that birdshot makes a lot of sense for home defense. I keep my home-defense 12 gauge loaded with two #4 birdshot rounds followed by 00 buck. Birdshot is much less likely to penetrate thin interior walls and kill innocent people on the other side, and has lower recoil than buckshot for faster follow-up shots (I live in a thin-walled apartment house, however - if I lived in a solid house with a lot of land around, I would definitely choose buckshot instead). The stopping power of birdshot should not be under-estimated: at ranges out to thirty feet or so, birdshot is virtually a solid column of lead. Choose any #4 or BB high brass lead hunting load. I like the Federal "Classic Lead Hi-Brass" #4 birdshot (HI26-4) and Winchester "Super-X" #4 high brass birdshot (X12-4), but there is little difference between the various choices. Buy whichever you please. If you're a bird hunter, use your favorite hunting shells as long as they are #6 or larger.

stephen426
August 1, 2008, 02:47 AM
They should have just taken him out back for a little street justice. Why waste the time and taxpayers money on a person like that just to sit in jail, Costing the taxpayers $50,000.00 per year(if not more) to feed him and let him have color TV to watch himself on it.

Yeah... uh... sure. :rolleyes: You have a bunch of church going people taking the law into their own hands and becoming judge, jury, and executioner. While I'm sure they might have killed in self defense, I hardly believe that he was still a threat after they tackeled and subdued him. Two wrongs don't make a right.

johnwilliamson062
August 1, 2008, 09:36 AM
My impression was this was #4 bird shot, not buck shot. Three shell capacity is what I found interesting.

johnwillianson- i wish i had the cojones you do, yes it is a good thing that nobody with skill has gone on a rampage in 42 years but that does not make it a good reason to assume that every "future gunman" is not knowlegd[e]able....that is just a dumb assumption to make....

Not impossible, merely unlikely. For starters most knowledgeable instructors will not help out just anyone. You can't learn everything on a forum. When I am at a range I usually receive a ton of help/ offers to shoot other guns etc., from people there. I know I have met others who don't believe this happens. I am sure this is due to demeanor.

mikenbarb
August 1, 2008, 09:49 AM
We have enough criminals that murdered people in the system being "studied" and if we continue down this path of not having more severe penalties, Then its going to continue because they know there going to be alive for a long time because most states dont enforce the death penalty. And do you really think that not one of the church members didnt want the satisfaction of having a little street justice?? I think that a few would have liked or wanted to but werent given the chance. This is my opinion and I hope others feel the way I do. We cannot just continue to keep criminals in jail just to study them and there has to be a more severe penalty for their actions. If there was, Im sure there wouldnt be as many violent crimes that we see all the time.

speakerguy79
August 1, 2008, 02:20 PM
Today is the anniversary of the Whitman shootings at the University of Texas. I know because I am a UT alumni. They only recently opened the observation deck of the tower to the public, and you have to buy tickets well in advance.

johnwilliamson062
August 1, 2008, 03:59 PM
I doubt the death penalty deters rampages like this. The people who go on these rampages seem to have totally lost it and are not thinking about anything beyond their personal rage.

It would be tragic if, after restraining the criminal, the church members killed him. Their momentary lust for revenge would likely haunt them and they would face severe criminal penalties

mikenbarb
August 1, 2008, 06:25 PM
Temporary insanity, Just like im certain he will claim. And I would have no remorse if it was one of my family members or close friends that were involved in this tragedy. Compare the violent crime rate in states with the death penalty and ones without it. Its a known fact that there are less voilent crimes in states that still execute violent criminals and states that let them live their life out in jail. Yes, Im sure it will still happen but even its only one more innocent life saved, Its well worth it. You can take it or leave it but this is how I feel and im sticking to it.

johnwilliamson062
August 1, 2008, 08:38 PM
I agree it reduces crime rates in general, just not in this situation. I am not against capital punishment, just saying i do not believe it has an effect in these violent rampages. Many times the shooters commit suicide by the end.