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View Full Version : Real World Self Defense: Snubbie 1st, Mid-Sized Auto 2nd (If Necessary)


Apprentice_941
July 18, 2008, 05:51 PM
Over the past 15 years, I have been jumped (mugged) twice - both times by groups of young men (5 or 6 men both times). After the second occaision, I finally changed the way I view the world and walked into a gun shop a few months later and purchased a handgun.

Having played these past two experiences over and over in my mind, I realize they were both very similar - I became aware of their threat (and yes, I am ALREADY a very observent person on alert) when there was only about 4 or 5 yards left between me and them.

The one thing I take with me to this day about these two occaisions the feeling that I WOULD NOT want a full sized handgun to defend myself - because of the very truncated distances and the real possibility of having the gun grabbed before I stopped at least one attacker.

The other feeling is that on both occaisions, a pocket draw would have been the best chance to very quickly get a gun in hand.

I just wanted to share this from my two real world experiences, where only through shear luck was I able to escape serious bodily injury as I was pretty much defenseless in both scenaios.

Summary - Real world self defense: A snubbie first out of the pocket, then second -a mid sized auto from IWB, holster, etc.

Keltyke
July 18, 2008, 06:15 PM
Glad you weren't injured. The gun you should use is the one that works for you. For immediate deployment, it's hard to beat a snubbie from the pocket. Draw and shoot from the hip if they're that close. The added benefit is it will fire 999 times out of 1000 when you pull the trigger. No worrying about safeties or chambering a round. You pull and it goes BANG! If you pull and it doesn't go BANG, just pull again. And don't let anyone tell you a 5 shot .38 spcl. won't do the job. It's done the job for many years.

Erik
July 18, 2008, 07:13 PM
When events allow the draw to be "staged," pistols produced from pockets are fast indeed and may offer advantage in that; and many (most?) find J-frames and similar sized revolvers ideal for this purpose.

When events do not, pistols produced from the belt line, relatively fast under most circumstances, may offer access related advantage; and many (most?) find larger pistols, revolvers and/or semi-automatics, ideal for this purpose.

Which is why so many people carry there.

Erik, who in full disclosure admits to practically always carrying a j-frame and a mid-sized semi-automatic. The idea being to maximize the advantage of both in different circumstances.

Apprentice_941
July 18, 2008, 07:16 PM
Erik, the thing about pulling a gun from your pocket (that is if you are fortunate enough to be already standing - or still standing) is that it is concealed and protected up to the very instance you can deploy it. Running these two muggings back through my mind and recalling the ACTUAL feelings I had - pocket draw would have been my best chance since the distnces were very small and I was standing up already.

BTW...actually, I had my skull fractured and suffered a ruptured hamstring muscle trying to run away in the second mugging - in Los Angeles. Gang banger land.

So by 'escape serious injury' - I mean I was fortunate not to lose consciousness where one or a couple could then beat me to a coma.

A snubbie out of the pocket would have prevented both of these injuries as the perps did a last second "check down" (presumably to wait and see if I was going to draw some heat) before they intiated their attack.

...but IF there is a 'next time', there IS going to be a snubbie coming out of the pocket, and powder and flames blowing out the cylinder gap. My skull cannot take any more blows.

dabigguns357
July 18, 2008, 08:16 PM
I have carried for years and quiet a few firearms but over the last couple of years i have reduced my carry options to a snubbie 357 rossi.I know people will tell you that rossis are no good but i really trust both mine.they are what they are simple and cheap.Yes i do have other firearms that are much better and will carry them when fall and winter comes but for now a snubbie is great.34295

Rifleman 173
July 18, 2008, 11:52 PM
If you are talking about pocket revolvers, take a look at this model of S&W pistols. The hammer is enclosed so that it does not snag on cloth and it can be fired from inside a pocket. A lot of the old time cops swore by these type of pistols because of the enclosed hammer shroud. The old time cops loved these things. I hope that this might help a bit.

http://www.snubnose.info/docs/m642.htm

gvf
July 19, 2008, 12:59 AM
Appendix Carry would seem to confer a lot of the pocket advantages, it's very close to your hand. I tried it various ways as I like an IWB, can carry more weight - or same weight but feels less (I guess because IWB is pressing gun against your body so full weight of gun is not hanging down) than does a pocket-carry - least for me.

But I can't get the Appendix mode comfortable any way I tried so I gave up, returned to behind hip IWB. The pocket-c. feels too heavy after a bit, (Colt Detective is the snub - and I LOVE it, don't want a titanium smith or anything like that)

c4v3man
July 19, 2008, 01:21 AM
Pocket draw is only fast if you are walking with your hands in your pockets, at least in my experience. Drawing my USP expert 45 from my IWB holster is much faster than drawing my P3AT from my KD pocket holster. Now if you walk with your hands in your pockets, then yes, from the pocket would be significantly faster, as you would have your hands on the pistol before the situation even begins.

Good luck getting a CCW. I hope your experiences warrant your approval for a permit with the local authorities.

BikerRN
July 19, 2008, 03:31 AM
Very good post, and thank you for sharing your real world expiriences.

The only thing I will add is, "and people wonder why I walk around with a hand in my pocket?"

Biker

Keltyke
July 19, 2008, 07:24 AM
Pocket draw also allows a one-handed presentation. With a IWB or OWB, you have to jerk your shirt up with your off hand and draw with your strong hand. You're right, in a tense situation, casually put your hand in your pocket and get a grip. You can draw in a heartbeat or even shoot from the pocket.

Erik
July 19, 2008, 02:50 PM
"With a IWB or OWB, you have to jerk your shirt up with your off hand and draw with your strong hand."

Maybe, maybe not, depending on physique, technique and manner of dress. But you do not "have to" use your off hand, and in my experience most do not.

brentfoto
July 19, 2008, 06:47 PM
I don't understand what happened on those two occasions. Were you beaten and robbed? Or just beaten?

.351winchester
July 20, 2008, 12:52 AM
I read a breif article by Jerry Van Cook (author of an Undercover LEO autobiographical book which is supposed to be excellent) on a system he developed for his own use, detailed in a sidebar on the then new Taurus Ti snubs and particular favorite 7-shot .357. He found that of all handguns, he could draw and fire a small frame wheelie faster than anything, though his sidearm of choice was a 1911A1, .45. Therefore, when sudden incidents went down, his BUG became the primary, with the big, heavy Colt to fall back on. He noted when he had time, or was out on the offensive (serving warrant, etc.), he would pick the obviously easier to shoot .45, with the snub on reserve as traditional order would have. This made a lot of sense to and really made me think about the importance of draw and fire handguns (DAO snubs, striker compact autos) for carry.
It made sense from a mental perspective. condition black when you pull the .38, whether you were just walking down the street, or just putting 8 rounds of .45 into assailants on that same street, the fight in fight or flight means that snubnose.
Interesting method, something good that comes from people thinking and analyzing for themselves and their particular situations.

Chui
July 20, 2008, 08:07 AM
The first observation: Don't take anyone's word on which method is quicker; PRACTICE DRAWING & figure out what's best for you. I know for me pocket drawing is cumbersome at best and if you don't see the attack coming until they are right on you it would be better to use your hands to defend yourself; get some room and draw. Putting your strong hand into your pocket doesn't seem very smart with goblins throwing punches and kicks at you.

The fastest draw would be Appendix Carry from what I've observed. If you've got a flat stomach you are CAPABLE of carrying in that manner. Your dress wil require your buttons to be buttoned so it will probably require two hands to draw. In the circumstances described that, too, may have presented issues. Obtain an Appendix holster and try it out a bit. It may work well - especially with a "mouse"-sized pistol.

Strong-side IWB offers a phenomenal compromise (though you can be "bump-checked"). A mid or full-size pistol would be a better choice in the cirumstances described. They can be easily concealed if you arent' shaped like the Michelin man. Only ONE hand is required if you dress appropriately: tucked T-shirt with open button shirt on top. Again, modify your "style" of dress to meet your perceived needs.

Learn to shoot in Close Quarters; learn to shoot with one hand; learn to point/flash sight picture shoot. There are classes that teach techniques for one to two arms length events. The larger guns are easier to hit with quickly. End of discussion. The smaller guns are easier to conceal but give up hitability for concealability. Look up Andy Stanford's book Surgical Speed Shooting also look up Rob Pincus (I cannot think of the name of his book, unfortunately). Obtain Kelly McCann/Jim Grover's videos from Paladin Press and you'll see demonstrations of how it CAN be done. See if anyone local teaches similar materials.

Good luck.

shep854
July 20, 2008, 11:43 AM
Disclosure: I pocket-carry a PF9.

As has been said in various ways, each of us does what we are most comfortable/confident with. Each carry style has its own advantages and disadvantages.

My choice to carry in my trouser pocket are:
1) Year-round consistency. A cover garment is not necessary (here in Alabama heat, any extra clothing is simply more uncomfortable. The down side is that in winter, I will have to work around a coat.

2) Excellent concealment with good access. There is only a slight indefinite bulge, which could be any kind of pocket junk. No cover garment to clear for the draw. Unless you are/were professional military, hands in pockets is very comfortable.

3) Discreet. If a situation goes from Yellow to Orange, simply slipping one's hand into the pocket allows one to grip the gun, without appearing to "brandish" (a no-no in some jurisdictions). The fastest draw for ANY carry option is when you can start with gun in hand.

Many (most?) don't like pocket carry, for perfectly good reasons. As I said above, "comfort/confidence". Check them all out, and go with what works for you.

Threefeathers
July 20, 2008, 11:44 AM
After years of carrying I've decided on IWB, but I also do often stick a litle Charter Arms 38 snubbie in my pocker. It has the shrouded hammer and I can fire from the pocket. However, I think it is best carried from a loose coat pocket of loos slacks, not tight Levies.

Thank God you survived your attacks.

shep854
July 20, 2008, 11:59 AM
Threefeathers just made a good point: Jeans are not good for pocket carry. Not only do they tend to be rather tight, but the cut of the pockets makes accessing a gun in the pocket rather difficult. With the "horizontal" opening, you have to move your hand above the pocket, then reach down, then pull back up (the gun being nearly vertical, with muzzle pointed at the ground) before you can even start pointing the gun toward the target. Also, the cut of jeans pockets make a gun nearly impossible to get at when sitting.

With slacks or most casual trousers, the pocket opening is more or less vertical, so to draw you simply reach forward into the pocket, draw rearward, and the gun comes out pretty near horizontal, and nearly in a retention position.

FM12
July 20, 2008, 04:21 PM
Shrouded hammer, shoot from the pocket, +1. But...do a lot of practice (dry firing) also.

tshadow6
July 20, 2008, 04:42 PM
Pocket carry is how I'm armed 90% of the time. When I'm out walkin, my hand is in my pocket, when I'm gassing up the car- hand in the pocket. I came close to drawing the other day in a W-M parking lot. Security was chasing a shop lifter. As I parked the car, my wife got out first, then was almost knocked down by store security chasing the shop lifter. My hand went to draw automaticaly. Once I realized there was no threat, the hand came out of pocket empty. No blood, no foul.

LightningJoe
July 20, 2008, 05:20 PM
The other feeling is that on both occaisions, a pocket draw would have been the best chance to very quickly get a gun in hand.


Strong-side front pocket carry has enormous tactical advantages.

FLA2760
July 21, 2008, 12:55 AM
Good thread, thanks for sharing your experiences. I always have a snubby on me that I can access with either hand. My main CCW is a Glock27. The snubby is a BUG. ;)
I read a great book on snubbys a few years ago.
Here is the link.

http://www.amazon.com/Snubby-Revolver-Concealed-Standard-Revised/dp/1581605714/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216619425&sr=1-1

threegun
July 21, 2008, 01:40 PM
So my G-23 is not as good a choice because the barrel extends 11/2 inches beyond a snub or a full sized Glock 2 inches beyond the snub?

Is this serious? What difference is 11/2 to 2 inches going to make? I just don't see any advantage to a snub vs any other concealable sized handgun.

Keltyke
July 21, 2008, 01:57 PM
Is this serious? What difference is 11/2 to 2 inches going to make? I just don't see any advantage to a snub vs any other concealable sized handgun.

I took it seriously. For whatever reason, some people can't conceal anything larger than a snubbie revolver or similar sized pistol, like the Keltec PF9 and 11.

It's not a question that the larger a handgun is, the harder it is to conceal. 2" of barrel may not make a difference to you, but to some it does.

For example. I have a Steyr S9 and an M9. The M has a 1/2" longer barrel and a 5 round larger magazine/butt. It's MUCH more difficult to conceal than the S.

Chui
July 21, 2008, 02:14 PM
So my G-23 is not as good a choice because the barrel extends 11/2 inches beyond a snub or a full sized Glock 2 inches beyond the snub?

Is this serious? What difference is 11/2 to 2 inches going to make? I just don't see any advantage to a snub vs any other concealable sized handgun.

If you're speaking about carrying on one's belt I concur strongly... but some people are either not willing to investigate good leather and a good holsters or, more likely, alter their dress. I'd take a Glock 19 or Glock 23 over any J-Frame or pocket pistol as I know I can deliver fast combat accurate shots far better than with the smaller pistols and revolvers.

FLA2760
July 21, 2008, 02:35 PM
"Is this serious? What difference is 11/2 to 2 inches going to make? I just don't see any advantage to a snub vs any other concealable sized handgun".

I hear what you are saying but I carry a snubby as a BUG and I know that if it gets to the point that I am grappling with a BG on the ground that I can press my concealed hammer snubby into the body of my attacker and it will fire fine. My Glock or any semi for that matter, in the same situation would become a 1 shot. The semi's can be knocked out of battery in such a case. ;)
And yes a revolver can be grasped around the cylinder and become a "no shot" but the revolver at least for me is easier to retain. I also carry a KA-BAR TDI small knife that I can reach with either hand.

shep854
July 21, 2008, 02:58 PM
Just about anything can be concealed if one wants to badly enough (Mas Ayoob has showcased people who can conceal S&W 29), but the plain fact is that smaller objects can be hidden more easily than big(ger) ones. With guns, you make tradeoffs. Each person has to make their own decision.

threegun
July 21, 2008, 03:20 PM
Revolvers can have the cylinder locked simply by grabbing it. This makes it a 0 shooter.

Anyway I took the OP as saying that the snubby is better because its shortness makes it harder to grab. When I compared my G-23 and G-22 to a Taurus 85 in my hand the snub was only slightly shorter. Realistically there would be virtually no difference in time for the BG to cover all 11/2 to 2 inches. Besides we should all practice gun retention and rapidly engaging multiple targets while retreating/moving.

I WOULD NOT want a full sized handgun to defend myself - because of the very truncated distances and the real possibility of having the gun grabbed before I stopped at least one attacker.


I'm not attacking the choice of a snub only the premise that it would offer any advantage to a carry gun sized auto.

For the OP. You preparing for a bum rush by 5 or 6 men with a 5 shot revolver????? Hope they quit.

Keltyke
July 21, 2008, 03:33 PM
Revolvers can have the cylinder locked simply by grabbing it. This makes it a 0 shooter.
Ah.. partly. If it's already cocked, it WILL fire if the trigger is pulled. Gotta be a gutsy (or stupid) perp to grab a gun pointed at him. BTW, if the perp grabs your pistol and pushes the slide out of battery, it ain't gonna fire, either. If you do manage to get a shot off with him holding it, you're done, because the resistance of his grip will make it jam. Good reason to not let him get that close, too.

For the OP. You preparing for a bum rush by 5 or 6 men with a 5 shot revolver????? Hope they quit.
Are you prepared with your 15 round mag? There's no "magic bullet" and no guarantee that many rounds will stop them. They're anticipating an easy, unarmed target. I'm betting they WILL quit once the first one is down and bleeding all over the sidewalk. Perps want it EASY. They do NOT want an armed conflict.

brentfoto
July 21, 2008, 03:52 PM
IMO, one needs to first determine if they want to go pocket carry or not.

If pocket carry, it narrows the choices down and makes selection much easier.

I prefer pocket carry at all times. Therefore, an NAA mini-mag revolver, BT380, S&W 442, or Kahr 9mm is the ticket for *me*. And I don't carry a BUG.

threegun
July 21, 2008, 04:45 PM
Are you prepared with your 15 round mag?

Just doing the math and I am 3 times more prepared ammunition wise. Personally I am as prepared as I can be given the awful odds against 6 bad guys. My carry gun choice gives me as much ammo as can be held in a concealable package. My caliber is capable of deep penetration. My training includes shooting on the move and engaging multiple attackers while doing so. It also includes weapon retention and point shooting skills.

Is this enough???????I hope so.

I'm betting they WILL quit once the first one is down and bleeding all over the sidewalk. Perps want it EASY. They do NOT want an armed conflict.

We pretty much agree except that you are betting and I am hoping. If they don't quit I have the tool and training to make them. I agree though that they probably will just quit at the sight of the gun or the innards of their buddy spilling out.

Chui
July 21, 2008, 06:05 PM
Threegun, you're far more prepared than the simple ammo capacity math because the majority of the BUG-for-primary guys cannot shoot their choice of carry very well. The fact is those firearms are far more difficult to combat shoot well and since they are small lightweight firearms you and I both know that the majority don't shoot much with them. I don't shoot them nearly as well as my M&P, either. And no matter how well I trained to shoot them well I'd always shoot better with a normal sized firearm.

Yep, five aggressive guys and a five shot revolver. What a screaming deal, eh? :confused:

imahotshot
July 21, 2008, 10:48 PM
I have a S&W model 65, 2-1/2" barrel. Don't carry it, can't find a holster I like. I carry x-draw from weak side. I'm too old and stiff to get the thing out of a strong side holster, and that also takes both hands, one to yank away the clothing and one to draw. My preferred carry is a mid-size 45acp, held tight against my side so it doesn't "print through. I never practice shoot at the usual range of 25yd. I don't even care what kind of 25yd accuracy my sidearm has. All my practice is 10yd or less, including some (very) rapid fire at about 2-3 yd. I also have a couple of N-frame Smiths, with the hammers de-horned. They're double action, aren't they? Who needs hammer spurs! Also, no spur means no snagg. Modifying reduces value? Who cares---I'm buying protection, not future investments. My chosen caliber is 45acp. My mid-size auto conceals as good or better than my S&W model 65. I have to admit I frequently carry my full size 1911. Hey, the only thing hard to hide is the grip, no matter how long the barrel. And, as Col. Jeff Cooper said, the 45acp will make the bad guy stop what he is doing before he kills you!

MLeake
July 22, 2008, 10:27 AM
... well, maybe... For me, a true, pocket weight revolver (S&W Airweight or one of the Scandiums) would suffer, compared to the 9's, not only in terms of total ammo capacity, but potential rate of fire.

I can shoot my SP101 very accurately. However, I can't get an accurate rate of fire with it that would even begin to approach the effective rate of fire I can get out of my Beretta Centurion, or even Sig P239. At 7 yards, from the Beretta, I can put 15 rounds in the sweet spot about as fast as I can put 5 .357's from the SP. In the same time, I could put 8 or 9 from the Sig, and be well into the reload.

If the SP's CrimsonTrace is activated, I can bring the fire rate up significantly over iron sight aimed fire, but it still doesn't match the 9mm's. And bear in mind, most consider the SP101 to be too bulky for pocket carry.

Revolvers can be shot quickly and accurately, of course. I can shoot the GP100 nearly as rapidly as my 9's, but it's not exactly a pocket pistol. Frankly, I am not confident in my ability to conceal it under anything less than a jacket.

MK11
July 22, 2008, 11:10 AM
How did this become an "either/or" debate? The first few posters had some interesting remarks on rethinking the traditional roles of BUG and main carry, with the thinking being the smaller gun might be easier to access RIGHT NOW under pressure depending on mode of carry. Capacity debates are so boring.

And yes, a Glock 19 is far easier to defend/deflect than a snubby. I've done it with blue guns in Krav Maga and a G19-size gives you plenty of barrel and frame to work with (relax--I'm not saying it's easy to do or your 19 is going to get stripped, I'm just saying it's easier than with the snub). The snub requires attacking the hand holding it and the shooter can power right through your grasp.

Mark Milton
July 22, 2008, 11:27 AM
20 plus years ago, I got mugged outside my place of work.

Some guy walked up, demanded $5 and stabbed me in the arm. I knocked the holy crap out of him and he bounced up off the sidewalk like a basketball and we rolled around in the mud of a parking lot for a few minutes before I pulled a pro-wrestling move on him -body slam- whereupon he bounced up again and ran away. I started to run after him but was weak for some reason.
I went back to my college dorm and found out he had sliced my scalp open as well as stabbed me in the arm. He tried to stab me again and broke the knife. I still have it.
What is funny is that I was only working that crappy job in that crappy neighborhood in hopes of saving up enough money to buy a gun.
Back then, the only guns I was interested in were single action revolvers.
Looking back a snubby or a big bore derringer would have been just fine for that particular situation, but I did not have one.
Thank the gods I was into powerlifting and boxing back then.

A couple of years after that, I got into another bad situation, where my roomate and I wandered into a drug situation. That time, I was armed and got out without a scratch. At the time, I really wished I had my own gun, a long barrelled model 29, instead of a service pistol I had borrowed to go plinking.
Back in the mid 1980s, the standard teaching was to carry the biggest gun you cold conceal- which for me was a Model 29 with a six inch tube.
At that time, in Ky, carrying concealed was a misdemeanor with a $100 fine.

As I got older and less studly, I began carrying smaller guns. 645s, Berettas, 1911s, etc.
These days, after a hernia repair I mostly carry a snub nose 5 shooter or a .45 derringer.

I think the most important factor is to HAVE A GUN, followed by having it in an effective caliber. Everything else comes in third.

>>>For the OP. You preparing for a bum rush by 5 or 6 men with a 5 shot revolver????? Hope they quit. <<<

In the real world, you seldom get bum rushed. Police statistics show that most civillian and LE shootings take place at about ten feet or less and end after three rounds have been fired.
All due respects to Mel Gibson's screen writers.
You get bum rushed by six people chances are you won't have time to pull the trigger more than twice.
Thing is, I doubt most people will bum rush you once you pull a gun on them.
Criminals are looking for an easy score not a fight. A gangbanger with an AK will run from a granny with a .25 auto every time.

For those of you who enjo snubbies, I recommend Ed Lovette's excellent book on the snub nose revolver. Even an old wheelgunner like me learned a thing or two from it. Its worth far more than the asking price if you are serious about saving your own bacon.
Lovette points out that in todays bottom feeder world a lot of old school wheelgun techniques and tricks are getting lost.

threegun
July 22, 2008, 05:03 PM
All due respects to Mel Gibson's screen writers.
You get bum rushed by six people chances are you won't have time to pull the trigger more than twice.


I'm definitely on the down side of life's ladder yet I can run and shoot very well. I have practiced several techniques of Sweat'n'bullets fluid threat response. One in particular has you shooting while running at full speed back wards with good combat hits very achievable (i plan on one day actually taking the course). If bum rushed this technique could buy you the time needed to engage many more targets than either stand and deliver or the traditional back pedal while shooting.

On a side note even if you aren't able to move due to injury, age, or surroundings you can make subtle movements that will buy time such as a simple sit/roll to your back. Anything that buys you distance/time means more lead flying and increased odds of survival.

While I enjoy Mel's movies I understand that they are make believe. However I have run mock drills with friends simulating being attacked by multiple foes and using different responses to fend off the attack. Similar to FOF except without the force. It didn't matter in what direction I ran I was always able to point and fire at every attacker every time (3 guys was the max we ever had rushing but it wouldn't have mattered much if it were more).

I learned that the group usually strung out in a line as the faster or more aggressive powered forward. If my trigger pulls amounted to hits the leader of the pack would be hit multiple times if needed before he could reach me. If he fell he would be an obstacle slowing the others down further increasing my time. So I believe a bum rush can be survived provided you are able to employ the correct tactics and get good hits on your foes.

Thing is, I doubt most people will bum rush you once you pull a gun on them.

I agree. Still better to be prepared for as much as possible.

threegun
July 22, 2008, 05:27 PM
MK11,

And yes, a Glock 19 is far easier to defend/deflect than a snubby. I've done it with blue guns in Krav Maga and a G19-size gives you plenty of barrel and frame to work with (relax--I'm not saying it's easy to do or your 19 is going to get stripped, I'm just saying it's easier than with the snub). The snub requires attacking the hand holding it and the shooter can power right through your grasp.

The snubby doesn't require the hand to be attacked. I can and have (in fun) grabbed the cylinder before it could rotate. While my hand held the cylinder the gun couldn't be fired no matter how hard the trigger was pulled. On many models the hammer can be held or allowed to bite your flesh to stop the gun.

Also I wasn't proclaiming either platform better or worst at preventing a takeaway or hand on gun induced failure. I was simply responding to the OP suggesting that a snub would be better because of its shorter size. Both platforms are in serious danger of failing if grabbed IMO and IME. On both platforms gun retention tactics will reduce or eliminate this problem.

Desslock
July 22, 2008, 05:34 PM
It will always be easier for me to access my pocketed NAA Mini first and then yank out the big ole IWB .38 afterwards.

MK11
July 23, 2008, 10:56 AM
I'm aware of grabbing the cylinder. The counter to that is the shooter twisting the gun and driving it toward your face while pulling the trigger 5, 6 or 7 times. The cylinder on a snubbie isn't much to hold onto compared to an auto's slide, especially they just step back and pop you from retention if you fumble the grab.

Glenn E. Meyer
July 23, 2008, 11:05 AM
There are quite a few instances of lone police with firearms being rushed by large groups. Interestingly, they seem not to resort to their gun and get beat up.

There's theories of violence and group dominance behavior that explain such but I'm not in lecture mood today.

Chui
July 23, 2008, 02:58 PM
One can grab the slide of an semi-auto pistol all one wants. It will still fire. It just won't cycle. The "bad" thing is that it's not a violent thing (holding the slide while someone fires the pistol) so it may not induce the guy to let go. However, someone who is in front of you grabs the slide simply pull towards yourself as you take a step back and, "Voila!" they are in alignment more or less with the muzzle. Let 'em have it.

shep854
July 23, 2008, 03:05 PM
The trick with a semi is to (if one is gutsy/desperate/nuts enough to try) shove against the muzzle as one grabs the slide, hard. By pushing back, the lockwork is disconnected as the slide is pushed out of battery, and the hard grip is to prevent the slide from returning to battery.

Chui
July 23, 2008, 03:13 PM
Correct, shep854.

Creature
July 23, 2008, 03:18 PM
There's theories of violence and group dominance behavior that explain such but I'm not in lecture mood today.

oh man...how about tomorrow? I would very much like to hear your thoughts on that topic.

Glenn E. Meyer
July 23, 2008, 03:31 PM
The book is Randall Collins: Violence: A Micro-sociological Theory - 2008
Princeton University Press.

Really is a good read for folks interested in the issues.

It's in there.

Only 562 pages - maybe I can summarize later but I'm in the midst of a big project and just goof off on TFL to clear brain.

Protector
July 23, 2008, 03:48 PM
I agree with the post, that stated whatever works for you!!!!!

I recommend however and whatever you are going to carry, that you practice several times a month drawing and firing against simulated real life experiences.(like at IDPA matches)

For some drawing from the pocket may be faster and for others from the waist might be...I know that I practice drawing my XD-45 from my inside the waist band several times a month and can get it out faster than my kel tec PF-9 and once out I can shoot from retention with my XD-45 and have 14 rounds to do it with.

It really comes down to being willing to practicing real life situations, not just standing there shooting at hanging targets.:cool:

threegun
July 23, 2008, 04:35 PM
Both platforms can be made to not function with a firm grip. Both platforms have remedies to defend against a firm grip. Both will function if the remedy is successful and both will fail if not.

This still doesn't make the snubby a better choice which was the OP's point.

Glenn E. Meyer
July 24, 2008, 12:50 PM
Ok - Collins proposed that initiating violence against another is very hard due to built in inhibitions in most of us. Same thing that Grossman reviews. Granted there is some controversy over SLA Marshall's analysis but Collins looks at new data to say the basic idea stands up with troops reluctant to fire.

One has to overcome this reluctance. One component of that is to achieve a sense of emotional dominance over the opponent If that occurs, it is easier to initiate violence.

In some large group attack situations, the group achieves the dominance and that disinhibits their reluctance to attack. The victim folds and flees or ends up in the fetal position to reduce appearance of threat and minimize damage.

He documents that even armed personnel fall victim to this and if dominated don't use their firearms and can get beat up by unarmed groups.

I've seen folks in FOF unable to fire with Sims against an aggressor and land up on the ground as they retreated. One such person was a 'martial' arts expert and just froze up. He could have shot the aggressor.

Of course, one can postulate this will not happen to you because we are mighty - it is an empirical question.

shep854
July 24, 2008, 01:35 PM
Glen, I just read your "Academic Shooter" article; very good! Even as a "hard-core" conservative, my outlook on guns was pretty much the same as yours, until I was given cause to do some study on RKBA.

Now, I'm a hard-core right-wing gun nut*!:cool:

*"Nuts about guns," that is, not a "nut with a gun.":)

Apprentice_941
July 26, 2008, 11:30 PM
"For the OP. You preparing for a bum rush by 5 or 6 men with a 5 shot revolver????? Hope they quit."

No, but my sister (I'm bachelor - and she's my only real family) would hard a hard time if she learned that I was mugged and seriously injured or killed and none of the assailants were hurt.

Basically, next time something like that goes down, I'll take five shots from my SW 642 and let the Lord take care of the rest.

And from my experience, the snubbie will - better than any gun - assure me that it's me who is the one shooting my gun, not the enemy who leveraged it out of my hands.

When I first went looking for a handgun in local gunstore- with the mugging fresh in my mind - I saw went staright to 1 gun that I felt confident I would have been able to overcome this group dominance fear (it was present in my case) and the short distances - and present a gun with confidence - the gun turned out to be a shrouded 38+ S&W snubbie - although I was new to guns at the time.

I just think the pocket snubbie is a true self defense piece.

shep854
July 27, 2008, 06:59 AM
Apprentice, I am taking part in this sort of discussion on a number of websites, and the snubbie is regularly the chosen gun. For one starting out, it its an excellent choice. Autos are out there, if you get the itch later on.

A snub is resting in my safe, so I have an option as well.

Again, GOOD CHOICE! Have fun with it too!

bikerbill
July 27, 2008, 11:01 AM
I have carried a Kahr PM9 for years ... like Alabama, Texas is hot a lot, and anything heavier than a tank top and shorts is really uncomfortable 6-8 months of the year ... When I can wear jeans and some kind of cover shirt, I carry the gun cross-draw in a Galco paddle holster ... I practice drawing from both every week ... IMHO, pocket carry is tops; it allows you to keep a hand on your gun at all times without attracting attention and even if you need both hands for something, it's right there with no shirt or jacket to clear out of the way ... That said, I just got a Kimber Ultra Carry II and it will be taking over daily carry duties except when I have to pocket carry ... then the Kahr slides into my pocket and I'm good to go ... another thing I don't know if anyone has mentioned ... you said you were attacked by 5-6 guys each time ... that leaves your snubbie one round short in both confrontations, assumes a quick one-shot fatality for each attacker and still leaves one guy unharmed to revenge his buddies ... unless you're a way better shot than I am, I'll take 7 shots in the Kahr, 8 in the Kimber ... do the math ...

Chui
July 27, 2008, 11:23 AM
"... And from my experience, the snubbie will - better than any gun - assure me that it's me who is the one shooting my gun, not the enemy who leveraged it out of my hands.

When I first went looking for a handgun in local gunstore- with the mugging fresh in my mind - I saw went straight to 1 gun that I felt confident I would have been able to overcome this group dominance fear (it was present in my case) and the short distances - and present a gun with confidence..."
You need to get more experience, my friend. You can do it several ways: books, videos, range shooting, defensive shooting schools and IDPA.

Yes, a snub-nosed revolver is a sef-defense pistol. Is it ideal for the circumstances descrbed? I'd say no, it probably isn't.

FerFAL
July 27, 2008, 04:41 PM
You’ve been mugged twice by 5 or 6 and what you’ve learned is that a 5 shot snubby would be best????

My friend, even with a 100% 5/5 one shot stop and perfect accuracy (all VERY unlikely) you are still one round short.

Since, you mentioned the Lord, the Lord gave you a head, use it!

I became aware of their threat (and yes, I am ALREADY a very observent person on alert) when there was only about 4 or 5 yards left between me and them.

You didn’t notice the potential threat involving 5/6 guys until 4 or 5 yards were left??
Sorry but no, you are not being aware or observant and it’s obvious you need to work on that, probably the reason you got mugged twice by now.

I hope you don’t take offense in my comments.


Keltyke wrote
Quote:
For the OP. You preparing for a bum rush by 5 or 6 men with a 5 shot revolver????? Hope they quit.
Are you prepared with your 15 round mag? There's no "magic bullet" and no guarantee that many rounds will stop them. They're anticipating an easy, unarmed target. I'm betting they WILL quit once the first one is down and bleeding all over the sidewalk. Perps want it EASY. They do NOT want an armed conflict.

I wouldn’t bet if I were you. Not with your life at least.
My chances look much better if I have 3 rounds per badguys, vs. going 1 ronud too short...

FerFAL

Socrates
July 27, 2008, 05:37 PM
I got out of my car this morning in Berkeley. 5 homeless guys came around the corner, and, before I could really get out of the car, were within a distance I did not feel comfortable about. I also then noticed one more sleeping on the church steps.

The guys saw my beat up old car, and, my ref shirt and said something like,

"Don't do them wrong."

I answered,

"I don't."

and they kept walking. All I had was some directional mace/pepper spray, that I had in my hand, in my pocket. Since I am aware of the danger of homeless people, since about 45% of the San Francisco reported crimes, and, investigated, but never taken to trial are homeless people, either as victim or attacker, I was a bit edgy about the entire encounter.

My point is, the person, OP, has a valid point, and, you can be taken aware, but at the oddest times, like 8 am, Sunday morning, and find yourself in a not so good situation.

I also wonder, if you shoot, or fire a gun, how likely the gang bangers are to stick around, and, that even though there might be 6, the real question is who wants to get shot third, fourth, or fifth?

I know the Hell's Angels have a code that if one Angel is jumped, all others must jump in, and fight to the death, if need be.

I wonder if other gangs have something similar, even including gun fights??

Chui
July 27, 2008, 05:46 PM
I know the Hell's Angels have a code that if one Angel is jumped, all others must jump in, and fight to the death, if need be.

I wonder if other gangs have something similar, even including gun fights??
For the more violent Asian, Black and Hispanic gangs? Yes. And they may choose to retaliate later as well if you're successful on the first go around. The object is to be prepared to WIN by a landslide any encounter if you cannot avoid it. Relying on a 5 shot snub-nosed revolver will stop ME from laughing at you but it may only cause some goblin to whip out the Glock and start sending projectiles in your general direction. Not good.

Socrates
July 27, 2008, 06:36 PM
The Angels are also famous for hunting down witnesses, and killing them, and their family.

I will say they tend to be pragmatic. In a fight started by a wannabe Hell's Angel's girlfriend, the wannabe just disappeared. Detectives figure he's been used for shark food...never found a trace of him.

Also, the victim did not testify, for fear of the above reprisal.

threegun
July 28, 2008, 05:43 AM
And from my experience, the snubbie will - better than any gun - assure me that it's me who is the one shooting my gun, not the enemy who leveraged it out of my hands.

OP you are well armed with that snubby. That said if you allow someone to get a grab on it you are in the same trouble as if it were a Glock. Your capacity is fine unless all 5-6 men are determined to kill you. At that point I feel you will lose no matter what tactics you use to aid your survival.

I will say this, if you retreat, 4-5 yards is allot of distance for your attackers to overcome while eating 38 specials. If that weapon held more ammo would it not be better? My point is with proper tactics they should never grab it. That eliminates the main, although questioned, reason for its choice.

Erik
July 28, 2008, 01:40 PM
The assumption that hostilities will cease at the sound or sight of gunfire is dangerous; a group of criminals rushing you may be on you, after all, by the time they process that one or two of them is shot. And one of the safest options for them at that time, given the situation, is to stay on you; hard on you.

---

Interestingly enough, I've never heard of a debrief from a survivor of an attack involving gunfire complain about his gun's capacity from a "I had too many rounds" perspective; especially if the facts required a reload. The same cannot be said of the reverse.

Chui
July 28, 2008, 07:26 PM
Yep. One CANNOT retreat during an attack and they're MUCH better off to continue closing. And when you're speaking of gangs the more violent ones know this. AND several members will be armed. They may have been armed when they were rolling the OP but never felt the need to use it since they ha the upper hand.

A "snubbie" is a last ditch piece; always has and always will be. Those who think otherwise are fooling themselves.

A Glock 17 or 19/S&W M&P is better than any revolver. And unless you're as small as a broomstick you cannot ever convince me you cannot conceal it. :rolleyes: Okay, maybe if you wear shirts and pants that are spray-painted on, but if that's the case you have much bigger issues...

Bottom line: no matter what you have if you're not prepared to use it/not paying attention/not prepared to use it/poorly trained it doesn't matter.

Make all things equal the semi-auto pistol is the better weapon. I prefer the 1911 followed by the M&P and Glock 17. Other prefer others but as a reality check go IDPA and compare your scores to others who are classified similarly. Then unleash the ammo capacity issue and re-run it: 17 rounds beats 5 and a longer sight radius beats a shorter one and good defensive sights beats rudimentary ones.

I thought we all knew this by now...

threegun
July 29, 2008, 06:07 AM
Chui, Unfortunately there are many folks here on TFL who use probabilities and statistics to select a weapon or justify a weapon choice. We have seen this over and over. They will be out soon to scold you for comparing a gun game with real life. They push things like "the bad guy will run at the mere sight of a gun" and "after the first one or two are down and bleeding the rest will turn tail and run" to support opting for less capacity or even a smaller caliber.

The angle "the snub is less likely to get taken away" is new to me but equally wrong IME.

My answer is NO the snub is not the best choice. It will handle most situations well but it is not the best choice. An accurate, reliable, concealable weapon that holds 5 shots is not better than an accurate, reliable, concealable weapon that holds 15 shots.....provided the cartridges have similar effectiveness. Thats the bottom line.

Protector
July 30, 2008, 10:42 AM
Quote:
"... And from my experience, the snubbie will - better than any gun - assure me that it's me who is the one shooting my gun, not the enemy who leveraged it out of my hands.

When I first went looking for a handgun in local gunstore- with the mugging fresh in my mind - I saw went straight to 1 gun that I felt confident I would have been able to overcome this group dominance fear (it was present in my case) and the short distances - and present a gun with confidence..."

Response quote:
You need to get more experience, my friend. You can do it several ways: books, videos, range shooting, defensive shooting schools and IDPA.

Yes, a snub-nosed revolver is a sef-defense pistol. Is it ideal for the circumstances descrbed? I'd say no, it probably isn't.

!!!I AGREE WITH THIS RESPONSE...YOU NEED TO SEEK MORE EXPERIENCE!!!:cool:

Apprentice_941
August 2, 2008, 12:08 AM
"You need to get more experience, my friend. You can do it several ways: books, videos, range shooting, defensive shooting schools and IDPA."

First, the 2 guys above claiming to be my "friend" are not.

I have extensively studied all of the above except IDPA.

My real life experience is worth all these plus much more.
By the way, I own 2 Glocks (G26 and G27).

R1145
August 2, 2008, 02:39 AM
...Smith 342, thank you very much...but it's a trade-off. I know I'm giving up a tactical advantage for convenience.

Guns are like parachutes: Always carry one more than you think you'll need. I wasn't too worried tonight, obviously. If I got into it with a multiple-opponent and/or armed opponent situation, I'd be severely under-gunned...but I didn't and indeed haven't yet (at least off-duty).

Real World Self Defense: You make your choice based on the threat and your comfort level.

If the balloon goes up, I'd want a mid-sized high-capacity handgun in at least 9mmP (let's not get into that debate), but the gun in your pocket is better than the one left in the car or in the safe.

Regarding retention, well, if you're in a retention situation, your **** is weak to start with, so I don't think it's an overriding concern. That said, autos are in fact slightly easier to hang on to because more of the mass is in your hand, not sticking out over it.

IMHO, Glock 19 is the serious choice, but the snubby is convenient, and perfectly adequate nearly all the time...but it would be a bummer to dump your 5 shot and get caught clicking on an empty cylinder.

Chui
August 2, 2008, 04:42 PM
"You need to get more experience, my friend. You can do it several ways: books, videos, range shooting, defensive shooting schools and IDPA."

First, the 2 guys above claiming to be my "friend" are not.

I have extensively studied all of the above except IDPA.

My real life experience is worth all these plus much more.
By the way, I own 2 Glocks (G26 and G27).

You may not like the advice you're getting from me but I'm sure as Hell not your enemy. :confused: And from your experiences looks like you could use more friends with a bit more experience than yourself.

Since you've taken such a negative attitude do what the Hell you wish. I no longer care. I've not been rolled by a gang of thugs and I've frequented New Orleans, Atlanta and Detroit for over 20 years.

I do find it, well, ODD that you erroneously believe what you believe. But belief does not have to involve truth so I've answered my own question.

I still maintain you need more experience - both with self defence and human relationships.

Have a nice life.

porkskin
August 2, 2008, 07:44 PM
as time goes on, I realize bad guys/girls are crazier and more violent than they used to be just 20 years ago when I was a teenager. The irrational thought process they display has forced me to rethink my weapon choices. I have been a pocket carry airweight guy for a while. After the birth of my twins, I immediately added a speed loader. My research (online only) into force on force drills (read Suarez International) would indicate that with a snub nose from pocket carry and hand not in pocket, there has yet to be a successful draw and stop in their classes. When I carry my airweight, and my hackles raise I have my hand on my piece. But from hands outside the pocket, I am accepting the reality that I might not be fast enough and 5 shots might not be enough for someone who truly has no fear of death, bullet holes or prison...

threegun
August 4, 2008, 06:34 AM
Apprentice, Several people (myself included) have stated that weapons retention with a snub vs a similar sized auto is almost identical in terms of keeping or losing your weapon. I feel the edge goes to the auto but whatever. So with such little difference why stay with the snub?

My suggestion is for you to allow a friend to grab both your G-26/27 and your snub nose revolver. They won't try to break your finger hopefully but it should give you an idea of what we are saying to you. Everyone on this board has made some decision/decisions that looked or felt correct but after further review were not correct. Your decision to carry a snub is not as bad as the reason you came to this decision.......weapon retention.

Socrates
August 5, 2008, 05:30 AM
The one thing I take with me to this day about these two occaisions the feeling that I WOULD NOT want a full sized handgun to defend myself - because of the very truncated distances and the real possibility of having the gun grabbed before I stopped at least one attacker.

What a strange conclusion. I'm kind of wondering if anyone here is fired at point blank range, with a snubbie, mine in .357 magnum, at a BG? While my second shot is going to suck, the first guy is going down blind, deaf, and maybe hit.

That said, the guys have a point about the Glocks, and full sized guns. The weight, and site radius and longer grip allow you to get off multiple shots, very quickly. Snubbies, at least ones you can pocket carry, are usually too light to insure quick shooting. You want the heaviest, highest capacity gun you can get your hands on for the situation you described. Also, the gun's design, trigger pull, and effectiveness give a serious advantage to guns with high capacity mags, and short, consistent triggers.
Glocks, with a 5.5 pound trigger, are FAR superior to my
360PD, that came with a 15 lb plus trigger, and, can be tuned to no less then 10 pounds, DA, and stay reliable.

Really, no pocket carry snubbie is going to pack enough punch to be a good first choice weapon. It is still difficult to deploy a large gun from under clothing as fast as you can a snubbie from a pocket, but, it would be worth the attempt. Given the situations you are talking about, you need something with, at least for the PRKali, max capacity of 10 rounds, or 10 Plus 1, and, is capable of mulitple, fast accurate hits on target. For CCW, that leaves me with either a Glock 26, 27, 29 or 30. All not so good for pocket carry. Another choice is a single stack 1911, like my Detonics, but, it would require a quick reload.

threegun
August 5, 2008, 05:47 AM
There are things that can be done to increase the time needed to get your shots off. The 38 snub is plenty capable of causing a whole lot of problems for any attacking foe's. I just don't think its the best choice for this scenario.

Socrates, I can't even stand shooting next to a 357mag snub much less rushing it from the front LOL.

Socrates
August 6, 2008, 10:50 PM
Yes, threeguns, people forget how obnoxious they are just at the range, much less catching one in the face at 10 feet.

I find them REALLY annoying. Whenever someone gets one out, I get out either the .475 or 500 Max, shoot a could cylinders of full cases of 4227, or H110, and, they leave.;)

I used to fill a Colt case full of H110, 33 grains IIRC, put a 230 grain ball, hard cast on top, and plink away. The muzzle blast, and the flash from all that unburned powder was PERFECT for close range defense. Not to mention the bullet was moving around 1900 fps.:D

threegun
August 7, 2008, 06:24 AM
Socrates, Unfortunately I'm stuck twice a month having to put up with whatever is being shot. As an R.O. at a local range I have to watch for the many yahoo's who aren't very muzzle conscious with some downright dangerous others simply shoot so bad that they destroy the facility. Non the less I get the occasional blast of a ported smith 500 and the common thunder of a snubby in 357mag. I hate both LOL. With the 500 I'm pretty sure the shooter will only be firing 10-20 shots. Not so with the 357.

Back to the point though I couldn't imagine an attacker or attackers continuing the attack in the face of such violent gas expansion.....how on earth could they?

shep854
August 7, 2008, 07:11 AM
As the thread drifts...

The question has to be asked; who is being more rude and annoying, the person who is shooting a production gun (presumably while following range rules) or the person who feels compelled to make MORE noise just because he doesn't like the first shooter's choice of gun? I don't like the mega-loud guns either, but unless the range has a restriction, then I tolerate it while shooting my choices. Taken to extremes, ranges would restrict everything but .22 rimfire, and noise problems would be solved.

Please, I don't want to start a "war", but let's think about our own conduct.

threegun
August 7, 2008, 07:44 AM
I hate both but the second guy is a ding dong LOL.

scotjute
August 19, 2008, 09:20 AM
Snubbies have been used effectively for years as self-defense weapons. It seems a good choice if that's what he wants to use. Its simple, effective, and reliable.
I personally don't care for pistols for self-defense, but have revolvers for those moments when you just don't have access to a 12 gage pump. My revolvers all operate the same, I can switch from one to the other without having to think about it. When your heart is pounding and the adrenalin is pumping, you fall back on your training, pull your gun, aim or point, and shoot til the threat is gone.

fjk1911
August 19, 2008, 09:34 AM
Glad to hear you survived the most dreaded "multi-threat" scenario, armed or not.

While I may say my BUG is my Smith 340 (previously a Colt Cobra), in reality it is the gun my hand is usually on, either in a front pocket or jacket pocket, when I am walking in a parking lot at the mall, market, etc. and most likely would be the one that is fired first. I upgraded from the Colt for the hammerless configuration allowing it to be fired from inside the jacket pocket and also for the caliber (.38 to .357) and weight. The thing weighs 12 ounces.

My wife carries the same as her primary.

Be well.

fjk1911
August 19, 2008, 09:36 AM
Actually with the first shot of the .357 at point blank, the BG is going to prolly catch fire from the muzzle blast!!! No need for a second round.

threegun
August 19, 2008, 09:54 AM
Your pocket also LOL.

fjk1911
August 19, 2008, 12:19 PM
Yessir, that is true too. Guess I should look into some nomex gear.?!

threegun
August 19, 2008, 02:23 PM
Just stop, drop, and roll.