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Keltyke
July 17, 2008, 09:59 AM
OK, we've all seen countless threads on what to do if you have to draw. How many, where, tactics, calibers, gun types, etc.

Now, let's see some answers on how to NOT shoot. How to prevent getting into a situation where you're forced to draw. Let's face it, the perfect scenario is one where you get away and no one gets hurt. I'll start with a couple.

BE ALERT: Know what's going on around you at all times. Know who's around you at all times.

And following on that one...

If you see a bad scene developing, GET OUT. Drive off, walk away - separate yourself.

Now, let's hear some more.

cyprian
July 17, 2008, 11:13 AM
Don't go to bars. My number #1 rule.

Watch your mirrors at traffic lights, and make sure you can see the back tires of the car ahead of you (room to maneuver).

Lavid2002
July 17, 2008, 11:31 AM
One from the marines-
*Be polite, be respectfull, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet at all times.
Or something allong those things dont quote me word for word : D

P.S. isnt this a thread of what NOT to do? A little confused because you started it out by saying what to do. Just wondering im not trying to be smart.

cyprian
July 17, 2008, 11:37 AM
I like that! It's exactly right. If you think of yourself as representing more than just yourself, I think that goes a long way.

Also, it's what to do in order to avoid having to do something averse.

superfast61821
July 17, 2008, 12:20 PM
I really liked your post about having a plan on how to eliminate every one you come in contact with.

When I started my LE training for approaching vehicles on traffic stops my instructor told me just that. He said before you even walk up to a vehicle imagine how you would kill every last person in that vehicle because you might have to do just that.

Buzzard
July 17, 2008, 12:21 PM
What not to do:::::
Never get so involved with what you are doing that you forget to pay
attention to your surrounds and what is going on around you.

daveydoo
July 17, 2008, 12:25 PM
observe your surroundings and think of what if...

Use the force continuum...know when to leave or to defend, and to use the min amount force needed.

Words can bring on calm or bring rage in any situration.

If you are wrong say sorry I am a fault...I cutoff people while driving and apologize to them after knowing I did wrong, might be called a few words but it brings a dangerious stituration to an end quickly..

Sparks2112
July 17, 2008, 12:40 PM
Do Not:

Go somewhere you wouldn't be willing to go to unarmed, unless you absolutely have to.

Get into verbal confrontations with anyone for any reason. Whatever it is likely doesn't matter. If It does, call the cops.

Try to detain someone for any crime short of murder / attempted murder.

Associate with people that you know to be narcotic users, even if they are recreational users.

BigDaddy
July 17, 2008, 01:37 PM
Don't go to bars. My number #1 rule.

Ditto

--Dave

Brian Pfleuger
July 17, 2008, 02:17 PM
Quote:
Don't go to bars. My number #1 rule.
Ditto

--Dave

Double Ditto--- Been to a bar LITERALLY once in in my life. The evening ended with a fight over a racial comment made by a drunk college kid and about 15 cops with guns drawn. This was in a college town, not known for violence in ANY way.

The Great Mahoo
July 17, 2008, 02:19 PM
Don't go to bars. My number #1 rule.

Just find nicer bars. I love hanging out in the local pubs and have never had any trouble of any kind. From private clubs to holes-in-the-wall, theres often a great time to be had with no sign of danger or trouble. Stay away from seedy joints and you'll be fine.

Just remember: Alcohol and firearms don't mix. If you're going on a bender, leave your gun in the safe.

Brian Pfleuger
July 17, 2008, 02:57 PM
Stay away from seedy joints and you'll be fine.

The "seedy joint" that caused my trouble was on Main St in a small city of 13k people with a murder rate numbered by the DECADE, 300yds from two police stations (city and county).

But in principle, I'd agree.

cyprian
July 17, 2008, 04:08 PM
Nah, I break that rule all the time :) Besides, we don't have "nice" bars around here. Are you kidding me? This is pretty rural. "Urban" up here is Oak Harbor. Well, a good reason for not gg to bars, if you are a carrier, is you can't carry in a bar. Kinda defeats the purpose. But heck. A dive is expensive enough, a "nice" bar would just jack up the price. Why do that? And rich people are a-holes too! I can get a 6 and drink at home with my wife, and have a nicer time. I can just see it--

"Honey, let's go to Harry's and see how drunk we can get and still stay in Condition Yellow!"

Erik
July 17, 2008, 06:57 PM
Don't go to stupid places, to do stupid things, with stupid people.

Whoever said that, or whatever the exact quote happens to be if I fudged it, has a better than average grasp of the topic.

Of course, there is a certain assumption that the definition of "stupid" is known.

rb4browns
July 17, 2008, 07:42 PM
Stay away from "Stop and Robs" like 7-11. Not only does it save money to buy sodas and snacks at Wal-Mart or the grocery store in quantity and take them with you to work/school/wherever, but convenience mart and liquor stores are scum-magnets.

Sweatnbullets
July 18, 2008, 12:25 AM
Erik is right, the "three stupids" will cut down on you odds of problems by 98%

Do not go stupid places with stupid people and do stupid things.

Jmacinnis1
July 18, 2008, 08:55 AM
I have a few that most may not think about. Some of these might be common sense, but I’ll post them anyways...
1. When stopping at a red light, you want to SEE the back tires of the car in front of you. This is a rule of thumb is when you see the tires, that allows you to pull out if someone tries to attack you or you need to quickly get away. If you can see their tires, then you have enough room to quickly pull out and drive away (if your too close, you'll be locked in and that means you have drive forward, reverse, drive forward again, reverse again....etc.)
2. When parking in a large parking lot (or any for this scenario), park under the light pole. Just because it’s light when you go in doesn’t mean it'll be light when you come back out...
3. Speaking of parking lots, be familiar with your parking space in relation to the vehicles around you. If you're in a small car for example and you park between two vans, your car now has a "curtain" in front of it. When you leave the store, you cannot see your car or ANY possible attackers. Further, if you are attacked, there's a less chance that someone will see what's happening (because of the "curtain")

Keltyke
July 18, 2008, 02:36 PM
As you've probably figured out, it's a thread on what TO do to NOT have to shoot. ;)

David Armstrong
July 18, 2008, 03:13 PM
As mentioned, the 3 stupids are a great start.
I like to add don't be macho. It hurts to be laughed at, it's uncomfortable to have some SOB call you a little girl, or whatever. Suck it up, give a little curtsey, and move on. Your feelings are not worth a gunfight.
Don't be a hero. You've got enough trouble taking care of yourself and your family without taking care of the rest of the world.
Don't fight over property. If the BG is taking your TV out the back door, toss him the remote and call your insurance company. If the BG wants your car, give him the car and an extra $10 for gas money. Shooting it out over property will probably cost you far more than the property is worth.

tlm225
July 18, 2008, 03:28 PM
Don't associate with people who create or attract trouble for BS reasons. It doesn't matter if they are friends or family.

Sweatnbullets
July 18, 2008, 10:49 PM
I like to add don't be macho. It hurts to be laughed at, it's uncomfortable to have some SOB call you a little girl, or whatever. Suck it up, give a little curtsey, and move on. Your feelings are not worth a gunfight.


Ask yourself, "Is this really worth killing someone over?"

Killing someone costs a lot!

Jimtl
July 19, 2008, 09:04 AM
You are right about bars! I played in a band for 15+ years and many of the places we played were bars. The ONLY fights I observed during that time happened in bars ... some of those involved weapons. I was never personally involved, but definitely not a good place to be.

Since quitting ... haven't seen a fight. By the way ... haven't been in a bar since!

Erik
July 19, 2008, 02:44 PM
Another stupid people solution:

Whose in your peer group? A lot of life's problems can be mitigated through peer group adjustments.

Steeler Fan
July 19, 2008, 06:11 PM
While you can't prevent everything, you can prevent most things.



Follow the Boy Scout motto: Be Prepared.

DCJS Instructor
July 19, 2008, 10:12 PM
Combat Mindset & Criminal Behavior

Compiled By Tom Perroni
Everything after the first paragraph was written by Tom Givens author of “Fighting Smarter”

In my article about combat mindset I talked about Jeff Coopers “Color Code”. It has been called the Color Code of: Self Defense, of Awareness, of Combat, I simply call it the Color Code. But in order to understand why this is such an important part of Combat Mindset you must understand the Wolf’s Behavior.
I have always taught my students to be in condition yellow. But for a better understanding of why you must be in condition yellow and not condition white or to put it another way to be a Sheepdog (in condition yellow and not be sheep (in condition white). The below article was written by Tom Givens author of “Fighting Smarter”.

Criminals must go through certain specific stages of activity before they can assault/rob/abduct/rape/etc. These stages will differ slightly in different types of crimes, but will generally fall into these categories.

1. SELECTION-

The criminal views you as a prospective victim. He looks at your “victim potential”, on two separate bases. First, do you have the type of car he wants, are you wearing expensive watches and jewelry, have you flashed a roll of cash, do you fit his rape victim profile? We think of this as, “Do you have what I want?” If the answer is, “Yes.”, he moves to the next question.

Then he evaluates you as a threat to him. First and foremost, are you paying attention to your surroundings? Are you aware of his presence? Do you look like you might be a physical problem? Do you look like you might be armed? I assure you he goes through these questions. We think of this as, “Can I get what I want from you, safely?”

If the answer to either question, “Do you have what I want, and can I get it from you, safely?” is “NO”, then off he goes, in search of easier prey. Thugs are not looking for a fight. What they’re looking for is the easy mark. Someone they can get to, get what they want from, and get away from, without being hurt and without being caught.

Several years ago, a fascinating study was conducted by some psychology students. They took photos of ordinary people as they came and went from a downtown business area. They then planned to show these to criminals and ask them to identify the people they would choose as victims, and identify the people they would choose to bypass. In the preliminary write-up, they said that they expected to see a 10-15% correlation among the “victim” and “non-victim” groups.

They then went to a state prison and got a very large number of career violent offenders (rapists, muggers, etc.) to enter a room one at a time and view these photos. Time after time, the thugs said “I want that one”, and pointed to others and said, “But I don’t want that one!” When it was over, the psychologists were shocked. There was a 95% correlation rate! Ninety-five times out of a hundred, individual thugs, with no communication among them, picked the same people to be victims, or to bypass. How did they do that? Body language. The only thing available from these photos was body language, but that was enough for the thugs to instantly identify the true victims as well as the people they would not risk a confrontation with.

Whom did they choose as victims? Gender, size, and age were surprisingly not the keys. Instead, they looked for people who shuffled along, head down, avoiding eye contact, unaware of their surroundings (Condition White). In contrast, they avoided choosing people, even small females, if they were alert, confident, head up, and looked like they knew what was going on around them (Condition Yellow). Remember what he really wants. He wants to get to you, get what he wants from you, and get away from you, without being hurt or caught.

There are signs that you are being evaluated by a potential attacker. They include:
1. Anyone who appears to be watching you should be viewed with mild alarm. If every time you look up, the same guy is looking at you, ask yourself, “Why?”
2. Anyone who is inactive until you approach, then tries to look busy;
3. Anyone whose activity is geared to yours. You speed up, he speeds up, etc.

2. POSITIONING-

Once a criminal selects a victim, he must move into a position from which an attack is possible. Always remember that to assault, rob, or rape you, he must be close enough to talk to you. He will attempt to maneuver into this position by stealth (which is defeated by being alert), or by ruse. He may ask you for the time, for change, for directions, anything to distract you and preferably cause you to look away from him. When you look away, here comes the blow! The best course of action is to politely refuse any request, no matter what it is. Keep your eye on him and say, “No”. Anything you agree to is the springboard for the next request, which then escalates to demands. Just say “No”.

Positioning prior to the assault is vital to him, as he relies almost totally on surprise for success. If you avoid his attempts to properly position himself, you forestall the attack. Be alert and watchful for these cues:

1. Anyone who falls in behind you after you walk by;
2. Two or more people who are together, but split up as you approach;
3. Anyone staying in one place, observing, but begins to move toward you;
4. Two or more people lined up along a wall or fence; or
5. Anyone who moves to block an exit after you enter a confined space.

If you see one of these cues, cross the street, change directions, turn a corner. If he alters his course to match yours, he has tipped his hand. Go to Orange and start planning an escape or response.

3. THE ATTACK-

The attack phase can only come after the evaluation phase and the positioning phase. It is simply not possible to attack you until these first two stages have been completed. The very best defense, therefore, is to circumvent the attack by not allowing the Evaluation Phase and the Positioning Phase to be fruitfully completed. Every single attack you avoid is a battle won! In every attack you fail to prevent, you are at enormous risk! A one-eyed, three fingered jackass can miss you by ten feet with a handgun, and ricochet a round off the pavement and into your femoral artery. Although you are “accidentally” dead, you’re still dead. Be alert and use your head and you won’t have to use your pistol nearly as often.


BEHAVIORAL CUES TO IMPENDING AGGRESSION-

With the exception of the true sociopath (more on him later), there will normally be cues, principally body language, which will assist you in forecasting aggressive activity by an individual you are observing. Being aware of these cues is vital to your accurate threat assessment.

Of course, verbalization by the offender is a critical cue. Someone cursing, shouting epithets, and generally being aggressive verbally is a likely candidate for physical aggression. Bear in mind, however, that 80% of human communication is non-verbal, and you must be aware of and watchful for these sometimes subtle indicators.

One of the most reliable indicators of an impending assault occurs when you are in a position of authority and the offender fails to comply with or contemptuously ignores your commands. If, for instance, you encounter an intruder in your home, and he does not immediately comply with your commands, you are in for a fight!

Other definitive indicators can include these, alone or in combination:

1. hands on hips;
2. cocked head
3. arms folded across the chest
4. fists clenched, or clenched and flexed alternately
5. jaw clenched
6. spitting
7. deliberate avoidance of eye contact
8. continuously looking around
9. sustained verbal rationalizations
10. continuous yawning and stretching
11. target glancing.


“Target glancing” refers to brief, repeated shifting of the offender’s eyes to your chin, your nose, or your weapon. Repeated target glances to your chin or nose means he is gauging the distance for a punch. Target glances at your weapon indicate a gun snatch may be imminent.

Always, when the pre-attack indicators are present, shift to the highest level of mental readiness (Condition Red) and be geared up. If at all possible, extend the distance between the two of you. Unless you are a Marine, you don’t have to die for the piece of ground you’re standing on!

Sociopaths: These ANIMALS are born without or fail to develop (because of abuse) any sort of empathy for their fellow man. They not only feel nothing when inflicting pain, but IF it brings them sexual pleasure they may do so anytime or anywhere. There will be no "cues." The serial killer may be a sociopath, but likely his other symptoms are not such as would inhibit him from interacting with "normal" folks socially... like in a daily work situation. Some are so disconnected from reality they can't hold a job at any level. Society quickly detects these. But folks like the infamous and now deceased serial killer Ted Bundy are winsome and charming and you may like hanging out with a guy like this, at first. But most folks will eventually get a clue that there is something… just WRONG. It may be too late at that point, especially if you belong to the target group. But there will be no attack indicators with a sociopath. What this means of course is that for folks you don't know very well be polite; be professional but have a plan to kill everybody you meet. Be prepared to implement such plan instantly. If you run into a sociopath (highly unlikely unless you're a part of a target population) and he goes for you, you'll be behind the power curve from the start. But react as if you'd been caught in a near ambush with an immediate action drill. EXTREME violence in instant response may well put this sort of wolf off balance and allow you to either escape or finish him.


"Conflict is inevitable; Combat is an option".

Dwight55
July 20, 2008, 03:39 PM
From an unarmed mugging by a young punk, . . . to a full scale invasion by another country, . . . there seems to be one common denominator: the attacker felt confident in attacking the victim.

I truly believe in and practice not looking like a victim, . . . walking erect, being observant of my surroundings, avoiding the 3 stupids, being willing to not be the "macho in charge" of every situation, avoiding/forgiving slights or other perceived "diss-es", etc. The attacker, as DCJS aptly described, will avoid a harder target in favor of a softer, more appealing, more vulnerable appearing victim.

That is my RX for not shooting, . . .

May God bless,
Dwight

Sigma 40 Blaster
July 20, 2008, 04:08 PM
I took a class by Tom Givens, he gave us a lot of that same advice.

While passing on info from other credible instructors is great it looks like you are trying to give yourself credibility by using their words. And failing big time. This is probably the forth similar post I've read where input from several well known instructors was put together and presented with the "Compiled by" or "from so and so" disclaimer.

Better advice would be to advise someone to just buy Fighting Smarter if you have no original content or new ideas to add. I actually think that's still considered plagarism as there was nothing of value added to the massive quote, even if it's not it's called **** riding where I'm from.

FM12
July 20, 2008, 04:16 PM
Watch what you say, who you say it to and how you say it. Don't let your mouth make you pull your weapon. ;)

cohoskip
July 20, 2008, 06:00 PM
Geez, If I park under a light pole the seagulls crap on my car... :(

Vanya
July 21, 2008, 04:24 PM
There are a lot of good pointers here -- thanks to all who've posted them. Most of this advice pertains to what we do when out and about in the world... I have another set of concerns, though, and I'd appreciate any input on my particular situation. I work alone, in a small storefront in a decent, mostly residential but urban neighborhood. There's no cash on the premises (would that there were more, she said laughingly...), and nothing of value visible from the street. I keep the door locked if I'm there late, but that's not practical during business hours. My dog comes to work with me, and she's my main deterrent, I guess: she's a bit of a wuss in a lot of ways, but she weighs 65# or so, she's quite territorial, and she seems to have good instincts about people: she's normally very friendly with my customers, but the few times someone I've had a bad feeling about has come to the door, she's either barked, or stood off and kept a close eye on them.

Anyone with a similar work situation? How do you discourage undesirable folks? What else should I be doing?

rb4browns
July 21, 2008, 10:20 PM
Speak for yourself Sigma. I could care less if some anonymous person is trying to pump himself up or not. The piece was interesting and it was attributed to the original author. Leave the OP alone.

Hugh G Rection
July 21, 2008, 10:45 PM
My thought is to stay out of bad situations.

Be aware of a bad situation before it develops.

REact to developing situation befoer it turns bad.

Keltyke
July 22, 2008, 06:11 AM
Better advice would be to advise someone to just buy Fighting Smarter if you have no original content or new ideas to add.

What, did you write it or something? Own stock in the company? Why is it the definitive answer to the question?


I actually think that's still considered plagarism as there was nothing of value added to the massive quote,

Wrong! If you cite/give credit to author or place you took the quote from, it's not plagarism of any sort.

Just because an idea isn't new doesn't mean it's not viable. Some people may not have heard it.

Seems like YOU didn't have anything informative to add, either.

Keltyke
July 22, 2008, 06:17 AM
Crooks have usually cased the place before they hit it. Believe me, they know your place doesn't have anything of much value. Most robberies are for cash or some item that be quickly pawned for a little money.

I operated a hobby shop for about three years. It was located about 3 blocks from a street that was then known as the "crack capital of the county". I knew that and wore a .38 spcl. snubbie on my hip. I had two city LEOs and one county LEO tell me that the word was out on the street. "This guy is packing and willing." They told me that's why the bandits never hit the store or me coming in or going out.

Now, that's not saying you won't ever be robbed at your place. It could happen. But the less you have to steal, the less chance of it.

Keltyke
July 22, 2008, 06:39 AM
What else should I be doing?
Your location is a big deterrent. It sounds like a local neighborhood. Strangers will be noticed. If someone doesn't "fit" the area, they'll be remembered.

Be alert. Make eye contact with everyone as soon as they enter the store. That tells them, "I see you." Greet them, ask if you can help. Be a "presence". The dog is good. Many people are afraid of large dogs, especially if they bark.

Put an "alarm" sign in the window and a red button in a prominent place. Makes the crook think the place is wired with a panic button.

When I worked "loss prevention" for a large retail chain, we found the greatest deterrent to shoplifting was sales people all around and noticing the customers. Today, I could walk into Wal-Mart and steal them blind. There is no one on the floor. You have to send up smoke signals to get a clerk. Yea, lots of cameras, but they can't monitor them all and they can't see everywhere.

As a last resort, carry a piece, either in plain sight on your person (best place) or just under the cash drawer. Make no secret of it. Crook walks in, sees that you're packing, and walks right back out.

And speaking of that, beware of someone who comes in, looks around the store, and leaves, then comes back a little later (maybe once or twice) without buying anything. A shoplifter I caught at the hobby shop had been in twice that same day, lazily roaming and noticing EVERYTHING. Yea, I know a lot of legitimate customers do that, too, but being alert will scare off the one bad apple. There will be something about the way they act that will make your neck hairs stand up. Most of the people we caught at the retail chain were recognized as having been in several times recently.

Install a couple of dummy cameras. Crooks don't like to be on video.

I hope some of this helps.

Bzamazama
July 22, 2008, 07:01 AM
Think before you get in a situation. Visualize what you would do IF..Also, if you get a funky or weird feeling about some place or some One, Listen to that feeling--it is telling you that you are at risk.

As far as macho goes, I will never forget a sign I saw in a taco shop in CA : "Macho is not mucho". I believe many situations escalate because of pride, arrogance, and the need to be Macho.

Also, do not have as your friends anyone whose life is filled with odd happenings and soap opera type conflicts or who seems just not to get how to stay out of trouble.

Your mind is your best weapon and although there are times it is imperative that you use force, Benjamin Franklins' words still hold true for many situations: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".

Keltyke
July 22, 2008, 07:33 AM
I really like this post. Several others have said the same thing, you you did it clearly and briefly.

You, and the others, are absolutely right. The mind is the best deterrent to a shooting.

Thank you all for the excellent thoughts and plans. Some I already knew, some I learned in here. All were good for a refresher.

I AM alert to my surroundings. I DO "see" people. Sometimes I feel it necessary for them to know I see them, then I make eye contact. I try to stay out of bad areas and places. If the hair on my neck starts to rise, I leave. I'm 54 and have no need to stroke my "machismo" or ego. No "styling and profiling" here. I feel no need to antagonize to prove some senseless point. What a stranger thinks of me is of no consequence. I'm a normal person going about my normal business. Leave me alone and I'll leave you alone.

One thing I don't think anyone mentioned...go back and thoroughly re-read the concealed weapon laws for your state. What they say will change the way you look at a lot of things.

Most have a section that reads something like this, "...must in no way be at fault for the ensuing altercation." In other words, we must be squeaky clean. We CAN'T start something, we CAN'T escalate it. You get cut off in traffic. Is it worth pulling up beside the guy and telling him his mother was a female dog? What if he stops his car and comes at you? Do you pull your weapon and shoot him? You'll need an angel in court if you do. You started the incident. Think about this and apply it to anything that happens during your day.

We carry the power to violently and painfully end a life. When you think about it, that's a heavy responsibility, and a little scary.

Vanya
July 22, 2008, 04:20 PM
Those are some excellent pointers -- the dummy cameras and the Big Red Button are ones I hadn't thought of, and you've reminded me of another I thought of a while ago and never got around to: a nice loud bell or buzzer that'll sound when the door opens, maybe with a light wired into the circuit as well -- I am sometimes running machines in the back room, and while I try to be aware of the front door, it's hard at times.

It's a service business, not retail, so yeah, greeting people, paying attention to them, sort of goes with the territory... and 99 times out of 100 I'm happy to meet them (or at least to get their business ;)).

And I'm not gonna go into details, but there IS a firearm on the premises, which I sincerely hope never to need... Thanks to all who've posted their thoughts, and made it that much less likely that I will.

Brian Pfleuger
July 22, 2008, 04:50 PM
There are a lot of good pointers here -- thanks to all who've posted them. Most of this advice pertains to what we do when out and about in the world... I have another set of concerns, though, and I'd appreciate any input on my particular situation. I work alone, in a small storefront in a decent, mostly residential but urban neighborhood. There's no cash on the premises (would that there were more, she said laughingly...), and nothing of value visible from the street. I keep the door locked if I'm there late, but that's not practical during business hours. My dog comes to work with me, and she's my main deterrent, I guess: she's a bit of a wuss in a lot of ways, but she weighs 65# or so, she's quite territorial, and she seems to have good instincts about people: she's normally very friendly with my customers, but the few times someone I've had a bad feeling about has come to the door, she's either barked, or stood off and kept a close eye on them.

Anyone with a similar work situation? How do you discourage undesirable folks? What else should I be doing?

Yep, I quite often work alone at my pizzeria. Sometimes with a fair wad of cash and (from the BGs perspective I suppose) always the potential for cash if not the actuality. Hence my pursuit of a CC permit.

My suggestion would be to have an alarm most preferably with panic buttons in the areas you are most frequently as well as near any safe/vault. Obvious and prominent security cameras MAY deter some crimes but certainly no guarantee, good evidence either way.

jackmcmanus21
July 23, 2008, 08:59 AM
I worked at a used car dealership where there was a good amount of money on hand most of the time. I got my CCW for this primarily, and never had to use it thank god. The dogs help!

Mr. James
July 23, 2008, 04:58 PM
a nice loud bell or buzzer that'll sound when the door opens, maybe with a light wired into the circuit as well -- I am sometimes running machines in the back room, and while I try to be aware of the front door, it's hard at times

Given this, I think a buzzer of some sort would be a high priority - unless your dog alerts you consistently, you need to know when someone enters your shop.

It's your choice, but I would definitely have that firearm holstered on my person at all times, if possible. And unless you're an MRI technician, it's most likely possible. ;)

God be with you, in any event.

Mr. James
July 23, 2008, 05:03 PM
Don't be like my cousin - a cute, petite blond working in a DuPont Circle tanning salon in Washington, DC. Every night at 11:30, like clockwork, after she had cleaned up, finished the bookkeeping, etc., she would lock up the shop and walk directly to the night deposit box at what was then a Riggs Bank two blocks away on DuPont Circle. Every night. At 11:30. With the day's receipts in hand. Alone.

Yes, she was robbed. Thank God, that's all the b****** wanted. Talk about Condition White! :mad:

copenhagen
July 23, 2008, 05:27 PM
I am stuck in California, so I cannot easily legally (under this state's un-Constitutional laws) carry.

Needless to say, I avoid conflict.

I walk around like I know where I am going, and I carry myself confidently, but not snottily.

I avoid neighborhoods where I know a 6'5" white male would not be welcome.

I drive with my windows rolled up, and stay on main populated roads.

I believe for those of you who are allowed to be armed, you should think of it the way I am forced to, imagine you are un-armed- that is probably the best way to avoid a situation where you may have to shoot.

Brian Pfleuger
July 23, 2008, 08:04 PM
Don't be like my cousin - a cute, petite blond working in a DuPont Circle tanning salon in Washington, DC. Every night at 11:30, like clockwork, after she had cleaned up, finished the bookkeeping, etc., she would lock up the shop and walk directly to the night deposit box at what was then a Riggs Bank two blocks away on DuPont Circle. Every night. At 11:30. With the day's receipts in hand. Alone.

This is a critical point. DON'T BE PREDICTABLE!

shaman
July 27, 2008, 12:47 AM
the low fuel light had been on a while and i foolishly decided to keep going instead of just turning around and heading back toward the interstate intersection gas stations because "theres always another gas station up there"

now i was in a neighborhood the locals frown upon with desert on my route and all night pumps not very well lit at a closed convience store, spooked and trying to get the gas in as quick as possible, trying to keep my head on a swivel. there was considerable traffic running through the four way stop there so i did not see what later pointed at this simply being what the guy said it was.

i turned my head and a man was walking right toward me at a fast pace.

in the truck was an arsenal, but nothing on my person.

i turned my left shoulder toward him while he was still fifteen or so feet away, put my left arm out with palm toward him, fingers spread, my right hand behind the body at waist level and bellowed in as deep a voice as i could muster, "STOP, do NOT approach any closer!" and immediately stepped back toward the passenger door.

i had a paraordance p13 in the backseat, zipped up in a soft case without a mag in the well.

there was also a mossburg 500 18 1/2 inch barreled 12 gauge in the backseat with five rounds in a holder on the stock, but again, nothing in the magazine.

he immediately started backing away, said "whoa, whoa, whoa, its ok i just need directions to such and such place."

told him i was not from the area, knew nothing about it and would appreciate being left alone.

he turned and walked off into the darkness.

i loaded the p13, stuffed it in my back pocket, finished fueling the truck.

i noticed that the guy walked over to the intersection and across it to a big rig parked over there.

i finished up and got on out of there.

the guy might have simply been a trucker looking for directions.

it may have been a mistake to appear that i was about to draw my nonexistant weapon but i calculated i might need just that instant of shock to give me time to get to one of the guns.

i may very well have been setting myself up for the kill right there by acting like i had a weapon on my person.

i do realize that a host of bad decisions went into the making of the encounter, i reckon i dont have to list em.

it has worried me greatly how badly i scared that man.

the bottom line is it would really have been my own fault if something had happened to me there that night.

j-framer
July 27, 2008, 09:46 PM
copenhagen said:

...and I carry myself confidently, but not snottily.

Whenever there is a discussion about conflict avoidance, specifically about not looking like a victim, the question of posture always comes up sooner or later.

We are told to carry ourselves "with confidence". What that means precisely, I for one am not sure. I wish there were some objective standard that could be used to show me what most of the self-defense "experts" mean by a "confident posture".

But I'm at least glad to see that, in your above post, you showed an awareness that there is a difference between carrying yourself in a way that bespeaks confidence and swaggering around in a way that looks cocky and aggressive - and the line between the two can be very, very fine indeed. Actually, I think there's considerable overlap depending on whether the observer is a criminal or a member of polite society.

Gaining perspective over time, I have come to realize that I'm extremely sensitive, or tuned-in, to aggressive body language on the part of others, even to things that are far from being outright manifestations of aggression. When I see the slightest traces of the "macho swim" (arms held out from the sides as though the poser is a champion bodybuilder, even if obviously not), or someone sporting sunglasses in places where they're not needed, particularly wrap-around or mirror types, or someone who is slow to politely make way for others when quarters are tight, I think, "Geez, what a self-absorbed, posturing clown. I hope an equally hormone-laden cretin comes along and hands his lunch to him."

The thing is, in many of these cases, I really think that the people in question aren't knowingly telegraphing aggression. I'm also certain that some of you on this forum wouldn't be struck in the same way as I am by certain behavioral traits that appear, to me, aggressive or over-confident. Such people (those being observed, not TFL members) are just airheads who probably have been immersed in a particular lifestyle, and in one kind of company (their own) for most of their lives. But the underlying pugnaciousness of their physical, rather than mental, "confidence" nonetheless comes across loud and clear to some people of very different backgrounds and behavioral standards.

Point being that, though it is good to appear "confident", be aware that at least as much damage can be done by erring on the over-confident side as on the under-confident one. People who look as though they are making a display - even a subtle one - of themselves, especially in the sense of being physically poised, are sending clear, though maybe faint, signals that are going to catch the attention of those who wish to challenge or make an example of them. Not all criminal attacks are motivated by the desire for material gain, or are decided by a clear-cut risk/reward assessment. Some criminals relish selecting those who look as though they have a high opinion of their ability to take care of themselves, and then humiliating or defeating them.

Just a thought or two. Arguments can be made either way.

I'd still love to have someone actually show me his/her "confident" walk or body language. Even better, I'd like to have a sampling of many such examples gathered from people of all ages, ethnicities and both genders. Come to think of it, I wish that that bunch of photographs that some poster mentioned being shown to prison inmates for victim selection was available to the public, with the selected "victims" identified after I had a shot at it myself.

Keltyke
July 27, 2008, 10:03 PM
We all learn from our mistakes.

the low fuel light had been on a while and i foolishly decided to keep going
Mistake #1. Always err on the side of safety/caution.

in the truck was an arsenal, but nothing on my person.
Mistake #2 First rule of a gunfight - bring a gun. ALWAYS be prepared. Expect the worst.

my right hand behind the body at waist level
Mistake #3 That could have motivated a real BG to produce their own weapon. Now you're REALLY on the defensive. Never bluff.

i reckon i dont have to list em.
I did. Not to embarrass you, but to explain to and help others.

Given the circumstances you were in, you did good.

shaman
July 27, 2008, 11:33 PM
yes, i immediately realized i may very well have just killed myself by stupidity with the hand behind the waist thing.

it would have been so simple to just stick a mag in the para before i ever got out of the truck or even stick it loaded into my backpocket, and i seriously thought about doing that but i figgered the law might drive up on me and then im busted, even with it loaded in the car if they got shirty and badgered me about search.

im big guy, long long hair, big beard. i have always, and expect i will always be treated with wariness by law enforcement.

no im not whining there, its just the way it is.

the next time i get back to texas im sure heck gonna go for carry permit. i made the decision back when they started it in texas not to go for it because i felt i did not need one.

this event changed my mind.

my new wife just dont get it when i tell her to keep head up, walk confidently lookin around, catalog and make plans.

she told me i was silly when i one day told her that every minute when im out and about im thinking about cover, about which way to run, about how to go about surviving an encounter every moment.

it sounds scary when you write it out like this.

i could very well see comments by people telling me im crazy,

telling me im paranoid. guess i am.

it has gone to the point of her callin me a horses patootie, saying stuff like that dont matter.


one of my hopes in buying an AR for her is to get her shooting, get her confident, then maybe i can lead her into situational awareness.

lord knows im no expert on it, but jee whiz, how dumb do ya have to be to not practice it?

dont answer that, i already have:D.

Avenger11
July 28, 2008, 06:40 PM
????? Ignorance can be overcome with education and training. DUMB, can't be fixed!!

David Armstrong
July 30, 2008, 02:55 PM
I'd still love to have someone actually show me his/her "confident" walk or body language.
You've probably seen it already. Watch how a police officer moves through a crowd, or how a military officer holds himself. Look people in the eye. Stand erect. Movements are not restrained. You are confident that you are in control of your immediate environment. Hope that helps.

Keltyke
July 30, 2008, 03:01 PM
You've probably seen it already.

I'll add head/eyes on a swivel. Firm-footed stance. Alert appearance. Hands close in to body. Keeping a space around you.

wildturkey76209
July 30, 2008, 03:22 PM
Somebody has already said it. "Don't escalate the situation." Oh I know, we have all (myself included) played out scenarios in our heads where we shoved our guns into some A hole's face who richly deserved it. Pulling one's weapon ought to be the last thing we do, not the first.

Keltyke
July 30, 2008, 03:26 PM
Pulling one's weapon ought to be the last thing we do, not the first.

Actually, I say, given justification, pulling your weapon is your FIRST option, pulling the trigger is your LAST.

Dwight55
July 30, 2008, 08:44 PM
If you want to see the "confident walk" just go to a Wally World some Saturday morning, . . . take a lawn chair, a clipboard & pencil, . . . and a cooler full of cold iced tea.

Get a spot near one of the handicapped parking spaces, . . . and just observe. Ask yourself if that guy in the red ball cap would be a good victim, . . . how about the old guy with the cane, . . . the elderly lady with two grandchildren in tow, . . .

It won't take long, . . . you'll begin spotting folks you would leave alone if you were a mugger or otherwise bg. They are aware of their location, situation, they are observant, . . . and will probably give you the eye going in and out.

Watch for the CHL's too, . . . they're fun to spot.

May God bless,
Dwight

Glenn E. Meyer
July 31, 2008, 09:55 AM
There is significant literature on victim selection based on things like 'walk', alertness, attitude. There are even computer simulations gleaned from filming folks that criminals would or wouldn't select. Kind of like the motion capture they use for movies nowadays. Modern classes like Insights' SVT teaches this.

Scholarship is wonderful.

crebralfix
August 5, 2008, 07:42 PM
I am not sure how to maintain situational awareness at all times outside my home. How does one do this?

Edward429451
August 5, 2008, 08:20 PM
Do not provoke the situation !!

Do not slough off what Dwight said!!!

Do not toss the body language book aside!!:D

Edward429451
August 5, 2008, 08:24 PM
I am not sure how to maintain situational awareness at all times outside my home. How does one do this?

AT low ready?:D

Brian Pfleuger
August 5, 2008, 08:24 PM
I am not sure how to maintain situational awareness at all times outside my home. How does one do this?


Absolute situational awareness is (of course) not possible. Awareness is the key word, eyes up, head on a swivel, watching, looking for suspicious behavior. Avoiding areas, places, times that lend to danger.

Stevie-Ray
August 6, 2008, 05:42 PM
I believe for those of you who are allowed to be armed, you should think of it the way I am forced to, imagine you are un-armed- that is probably the best way to avoid a situation where you may have to shoot.I agree, that's what I did when I received my CPL. Most don't know I carry because nothing changed in the way I act. I have always carried myself confidently and getting a CPL did not cause me to become more aggressive, nor did it turn me into "Mr. nice guy" like many think it should. My attitude has changed to happier, but that's not CPL, it's retirement.:D

Sit in restaurants "tactically." I try to have exits within sight and do my best to face the main door to observe patrons' entry. This one upsets the wife.:confused:

Head on a swivel. Works for fighter-pilots and works for us as well, especially walking, bicycling, or in a drive-thru. Keep space between you and the car in front of you in a drive-thru also, for emergency egress.

In Michigan we can't go to bars when armed. The bars I visit, which is seldom, are never rowdy and are neighborhood places where it seems everybody knows everybody. The guns stay in the safe, but the seating is the same as above.

Stay out of Detroit.

shortwave
August 7, 2008, 05:07 PM
Seems that most of what has been desribed in posts can be summed up as being a bit"street smart". Although any one of us could find ourselves in a situation where having a gun would be in our best interest, being street smart gives us a definite advantage.

Brian Pfleuger
August 7, 2008, 05:17 PM
Stay out of Detroit.


LOL. sad but true.

Socrates
August 7, 2008, 07:24 PM
I guess: she's a bit of a wuss in a lot of ways, but she weighs 65# or so, she's quite territorial, and she seems to have good instincts about people: she's normally very friendly with my customers, but the few times someone I've had a bad feeling about has come to the door, she's either barked, or stood off and kept a close eye on them.

Anyone with a similar work situation? How do you discourage undesirable folks? What else should I be doing?

I was in a gun store in Antioch when a guy came in, pretty clear black gang banger type. Tried to engage the employees in discussion. Didn't know the right questions to ask about the guns, or was scared. His partner came in about 3 minutes after, baggy clothes, etc.

The guys had a giant rott, and, another big lab, but, they didn't react. Both of the guys behind the desk pulled their shirts up, and, tucked them in so they could easily, and quickly draw their Glocks. The bad guy started complaining that it was illegal in Kali to carry a CCW!!!:D:rolleyes: They informed him, correctly, that this was their place of business, and, they could carry whatever they wanted. Meanwhile, all I had was pepper spray.:eek:

His partner came in, and, I think he expected to see a really different situation, and both departed. I KNOW they had something in those baggy clothes. The ex-military guy said,

"I knew we were going to have someone try and rob us, but, I didn't think it would be today."

I was well aware of what was going on, and, kept the guy a good distance away, and, was looking for both weapons and cover.

That said, my couple things to do. I'm always in dangerous situations, working with people who are in some ways, from a different planet. What I have learned is that I can trigger a reaction I didn't want, by the simplest innocent comment, being either misheard, or misunderstood. SHUTUP!
It's very hard to misunderstand silence.

Stay away from those situations, if you can, and stay out of the areas I work in, if you can. If you can't, watch your back. Don't get caught alone, and, don't get caught unarmed, law or no law.

I wonder what St. Peter is going to say, if shot or stabbed I die, after working in East Oakland, unarmed? I can see it now,

"Just because you can't get a CCW, because your police chief hasn't issued one in 30 years, doesn't mean on a God scale stupidity is an excuse for getting yourself killed.
We don't let really stupid people in here. Find alternate accomodations.":eek:


NEVER assume that you are going to be protected. I remember working a couple weeks for a midnight basketball league, Oakland Police Athletic League to keep thugs off the streets, was a participant. Police had been there every week, and, I was getting concerned about being 'spotted' carrying. So, that next week, just bring pepper spray. NO POLICE THAT WEEK.

If a fight starts, get out of the way, and get distance. Getting punched in the back of the head takes your ability to deal with stuff away from you.

Carry something at all times, and, never let it off your person. Also, never let them know you have it, if possible, until the last minute. The fact that you are carrying often
gives you that air of I'm not the right person to pick on...

bclark1
August 7, 2008, 08:06 PM
A corollary to the good ol' USMC adage:

Assume everyone also has a plan to kill you.

I got mashed up pretty good by assuming a couple guys were blowhards and letting them get the drop on me. I assumed I read people pretty well and had a good sense of when people were escalating (as opposed to just posturing). But I got bit by that 1%. Almost anyone can level anyone else if their back's turned, and then it's over. You won't be drawing.

I guess this just goes to situational awareness, but it's another iteration of awareness to realize that potential adversaries might be thinking exactly what you are - or out-thinking you altogether.