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Playboypenguin
July 12, 2008, 11:38 PM
This has been covered before to one degree or another. It was brought up again in a recent thread and deserves to be covered again.

Which of these statements most fits your philosophy when drawing your gun?

1. Never draw until the last second when there is no other option but to fire immediately.

2. Draw your weapon as soon as a threat reaches a sufficient level and only fire if threat continues.

3. Always fire your weapon if you ever have to draw it...period.

4. I will draw if I have to but would never fire my weapon.

My personal philosophy is to never draw until the threat has reached a critical level; but if you wait until there is no other option than to fire, you have made a serious tactical error.

I believe that pulling my CCW is my next to last resort...firing it is the last resort. I am a civilian engaging in the act of self defense. I am not a samurai warrior. :)

KMO
July 12, 2008, 11:43 PM
OK, so if you're placing yourself in category #2 above, I'll concur with that too.

Playboypenguin
July 12, 2008, 11:44 PM
Yes, I am a #2 type of person. :)

MagicMan
July 12, 2008, 11:50 PM
#2

Rant Casey
July 12, 2008, 11:55 PM
In a defensive situation like being robbed at gun point, their gun is being deflected and mine is coming up and there will be no "freeze" or "stick em up". All they'll get is 3 shots point black from the hip, putting distance between us and firing off the remainder of the rounds in their chest until they drop. Quite a bit of my CCW training is done like that. Other situations warrent different responses, if my life was not in immediate jeapordy or the lives of others, my answer would be a lot different. Someone with a less lethal weapon like a bat or a knife that is a reasonable distance from me would get a warning and I would fire only if I felt my life was in danger and they continued to advance towards me.

tplumeri
July 13, 2008, 12:00 AM
Yep, been done before, but still a valid question.

Draw your weapon as soon as a threat reaches a sufficient level and only fire if threat continues.


I have to go with that. too many folks out there with the "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality. or at least thats what they say...
I'm in the minority of folks here, i dont carry ANY of my pistols with one in the tube. gives me that extra 1/2 second to decide if i'm gonna take another life.
they say that only 1% of folks that carry have actually every fired at another human being in self defense. not to sidetrack your thread, but weve got over 6000 "members", how many of you have fired your CCW in self defense?

Playboypenguin
July 13, 2008, 12:02 AM
not to sidetrack your thread, but weve got over 6000 "members", how many of you have fired your CCW in self defense?
Hey! Start your own thread, poozer. :D ;)

BFTR, I have drawn my CCW once never fired it. I have fired a gun in self defense, in the line of duty, but not my civilian CCW. :)

huchahuchax
July 13, 2008, 12:04 AM
I would say I'm a #2, but I study philosophy on a regular basis and have to ask what does "sufficient" mean? Who's philosophy are we going by? (I'm a Nietzsche fan myself).

Rant Casey
July 13, 2008, 12:07 AM
You say you don't carry with one in the chamber, but what if your life is dependent on having a gun ready like in a deflect / fire situation? Seconds count.

As far as firing at someone with a ccw, no never have and hope to never have to do so. I have unfortunetly fired a large surplus of 5.56 at other human beings overseas and I'll tell you one thing, my weapon was loaded. It just seems like a saftey that could cost you your life. Use your own judgement, but why hinder yourself?

Scattergun Bob
July 13, 2008, 12:09 AM
I would like to believe I am a #2 kind of guy. That said, there are issues to address.

1st - as defensive based shooters responding to threats, we are already out of time in a way. Don't underestimate that 2/5th second reaction time, it puts us way behind our enemy. In the academy it was drilled into our heads that the best draw was the gun already in our hands / on the other hand I think you and I live in the same state and the state frowns on civilians brandishing. it is a very sharp sword edge to walk on.

I am sure others will address more.

Of the options you have presented, # 2 is the most usable for me.

Good Luck & Be Safe

nate45
July 13, 2008, 12:13 AM
2. Draw your weapon as soon as a threat reaches a sufficient level and only fire if threat continues.

PBP the Yankee Marshall
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r89/PlayboyPenguin/Self/cowboy.jpg
"Don't make me draw down on you varmint"-PBP

huchahuchax
July 13, 2008, 12:26 AM
That "Wonder Woman" doll is the shiznit!

Playboypenguin
July 13, 2008, 12:39 AM
PBP the Yankee Sheriff
It is "The Yankee Marshal" not sheriff. :)

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r89/PlayboyPenguin/Self/TheYankeeMarshal.jpg

That "Wonder Woman" doll is the shiznit!
It is not a doll. It is an animation maquette. :)

nate45
July 13, 2008, 01:05 AM
It is "The Yankee Marshal" not sheriff.

Sorry for the unintentional demotion.:o

Playboypenguin
July 13, 2008, 01:06 AM
what does "sufficient" mean?
That would open to each person's discretion. You might want to make sure to set your standards high though, since you will most likely be held accountable by a jury. :)

I myself would have to have reason to believe someone possess both the desire and the ability to do me serious lasting harm and be acting upon that desire.

nate45
July 13, 2008, 01:17 AM
I believe that pulling my CCW is my next to last resort...firing it is the last resort.

Exactly, look at the weapons most of us have, the ammunition we load them with, the range practice we do.

If we ever fire our weapons its probably going to be more than a trip to the hospital for the BG.

It is a deadly serious event, I've drawn my pistol twice over the years with the intent to use it and thankfully I did not have to, its presence was enough. I hope I never have to draw on a human again the rest of my life. I look for new ways to avoid trouble all the time.

huchahuchax
July 13, 2008, 01:26 AM
That would open to each person's discretion. You might want to make sure to set your standards high though, since you will be most likely be held accountable by a jury.

I hear ya.

tplumeri
July 13, 2008, 03:06 AM
Hey! Start your own thread, poozer

poozer?!!:D

KMO
July 13, 2008, 08:00 AM
Rant Casey wrote,
Someone with a less lethal weapon like a bat or a knife that is a reasonable distance from me would get a warning

...and then wrote,
You say you don't carry with one in the chamber, but what if your life is dependent on having a gun ready like in a deflect / fire situation? Seconds count.

My local CCW instructor provided an excellent illustration for a class on this very subject. He wanted to point out the fallacy of thinking that a knife held by the BG somehow gives a time advantage to the armed home defender. While our "good guy" was giving verbal warnings from 20 feet, our instructor illustrated that the BG was able to cover that 20 feet with his knife in under 2 seconds, even faster if knows how to throw the thing. The point...don't be fooled by TV/movie scenes that illustrate poor decisions about warning time. Seconds really do count, and a defender must think this out in advance. 20 feet is no great distance.

DMacLeod
July 13, 2008, 08:09 AM
#2. If it happens (I truely hope it never does) , safety would be dropped upon completion of draw. Finger will be on trigger....then it is up to the BG.

xrocket
July 13, 2008, 08:28 AM
#2 ... with the option of changing my perception and subsequent resulting action by reformulating a policy for employing situational ethics upon rationalization of perceived success and or failure rates within the time space continuum of the omnipresent conflict resolution matrix.

... or, whatever.

Keltyke
July 13, 2008, 09:17 AM
#2 Draw when you perceive a threat. I draw, and release the safety upon completion. Use the drawn gun and verbal commands, "Stop or I'll shoot!", to force the perp to back down or to effect your escape. If the threat escalates, do not hesitate to pull the trigger. Don't wait until the last moment to draw, you may not have a last moment at that point.

Scenario:
A perp approaches with a gun in his hand, pointing at the ground. You draw yours and point it at his chest. He stops. "Drop the gun!" over and over. As long as he's not advancing and hasn't raised the gun, there's no need to fire. He's in your sights, if he even twitches that gun hand or continues to advance, you have him cold.

The simple appearance of a potential victim who's suddenly armed may be enough deterrent. Like I've said, crooks like it easy.

Drawing is a first resort, firing is a last resort.

Keltyke
July 13, 2008, 09:24 AM
how many of you have fired your CCW in self defense?

Drawn once, not fired - .357 snubbie, did not cock the hammer but my finger was on the trigger. Did not draw with the immediate intent of using it, but would have if the two perps had not backed down. They backed down and left, I re-holstered and started breathing again.

Sigma 40 Blaster
July 13, 2008, 10:39 AM
#2

In my state we can brandish a firearm to create the apprehension that it will be used in a situation that one can legally use force or deadly force. Draw to low ready with the intent to fire if situation further deteriorates during the draw or presentation.

I actually had to draw my weapon last week...thank God I have trained to follow those rules if there is not a weapon pointed directly at me. I will probably get flamed but here's what happened.

I stopped at a grocery store gas station kiosk, if I'm just buying a soda or cigarettes I'll stop here on my way to work since I can just pull up, get out, get what I need, and get right back in. This day I was paying with cash and there was no one in line or and just a couple at the pump, so I pulled up and left my truck running while I got out.

While I'm reaching in my pocket to get my money in my peripheral vision I saw someone running behind me and a look of shock on the face of the cashier at the kiosk. I turned, saw someone opening my door, and about to get in. I drew to low ready (finger off trigger), and gave a command to stop. In this process I could not see a face, just an outline through my tinted windows, I was looking for hands. He stopped, put his hands in front of him and came out of my car slowly. After the individual cleared the door with his hands up I looked at the face and saw a family member of my wife with a half smile half bewildered look. I guess he thought it would be funny to "scare" me.

I don't advertise my CCW status to everyone but this guy knows I carry. After I told the lady at the kiosk that calling 911 wasn't necessary I proceeded to curse him and let him know how lucky he (or really we) was that my son wasn't in the car. I likely would have skipped the warning and just shot.

I might have to get a sign to put on my windows that say "Joke Free Zone". I fielded several phone calls from angry family members that day, they all calmed down when I asked them what they'd want me to do if that was a real thief, murderer, rapist, or kidnapper. Then they pretty much agreed that the guy was an idiot for playing a joke like that.

nate45
July 13, 2008, 03:38 PM
I will probably get flamed but here's what happened.

I do not see why you should get flamed. I would have done the same. Was not a funny joke.

Hawg Haggen
July 13, 2008, 04:32 PM
#2 in most cases. I have been on company property in a bad section of New Orleans after dark. In that case my gun is in my hand at all times cocked and ready to fire.

Sigma 40 Blaster
July 13, 2008, 06:00 PM
nate45:

I'm expecting to be told I should have tried to clearly identify the threat before drawing or something. I just absolutely could not see a face, just a shape.

I will say that the 400 I spent with Rangemaster for a training class they brought to my neck of the woods saved our family a tremendous amount of grief. Drawing to low ready unless your life is immediately in danger was drilled into us pretty well. So was shouting stop, don't move, or drop it. I elected for stop during training (less stuff to remember), he told me that's what made him freeze, he knew I had my gun on him before he even looked back.

Sorry if that is a semi-thread jack. Just trying to reinforce that #2 is probably the best way to defend yourself. Prevent yourself from doing something you shouldn't AND not allowing someone to get the drop on you if you can avoid it.

rampage841512
July 13, 2008, 06:04 PM
My personal philosophy is to never draw until the threat has reached a critical level; but if you wait until there is no other option than to fire, you have made a serious tactical error.

I believe that pulling my CCW is my next to last resort...firing it is the last resort. I am a civilian engaging in the act of self defense. I am not a samurai warrior.

This is my own personal philosophy as well.

Lavid2002
July 13, 2008, 06:17 PM
#2

Erik
July 13, 2008, 06:25 PM
"Which of these statements most fits your philosophy when drawing your gun?"

#2.

izzkidioto
July 13, 2008, 06:30 PM
Definately #2, but somewhat encroaching on #3. They go somewhat hand in hand in some instances, but not all.

I understand that drawing alone may de-escalate the situation, but dangit, if I feel threatened for my life or for the loved ones around me, I am fully anticipating to engage and pour forth the wrath of my firearm and any physical training I have to protect them. The very act of drawing my firearm with intent to use it speaks volumes of the severity of the situation at hand. I hope to never be put in that situation, but should that day come...

I agree with Rampage and his quote.

blhseawa
July 13, 2008, 08:20 PM
#3 -- Always!

#2 teaches indecision.

Remember, when seconds count, the police are minutes away, they also bring pen and paper to the scene.

In my humble opinion #2 borders on brandishing. There is a movie line that sums up my feelings/beliefs on the topic.

"If you are going to shoot, shoot, don't talk about it." -- The Good, The Bad, The Ugly
:D

Playboypenguin
July 13, 2008, 08:23 PM
*sniff* *sniff*...I think I smell a "Hotdog On A Stick."

There must be a mall ninja nearby. :D

#3 -- Always!
Good luck in prison if you ever have to use you CCW and you pull the trigger simply because you feel duty bound to fire once it is drawn.. :)

blhseawa
July 13, 2008, 08:44 PM
The key to my answer is when do you draw?

It doesn't mean I'm trigger happy, just means that I've considered the situation and the consequences and shooting is justified (proper) response. Until then the weapon remains in the holster. You know as well as I, that drawing leads to accidental discharges when in the moment.

Unfortunately, all situations are shades of gray, and it is difficult to define the situational conditions that dictate whether to shoot or not, until I've made the decision to shoot, the weapon remains in its holster. Once I've made the decision to shoot, drawing is just the act of a reasoned decision.

Tried by twelve rather than carried by six.

I hope this clarifies my opinion/position.
:D

B.N.Real
July 13, 2008, 10:01 PM
#2 or you might as well not own a handgun.

ragwd
July 13, 2008, 10:17 PM
#2

Southern_guy
July 13, 2008, 10:23 PM
Let's put it this way.

That guy has a gun, poses a clear threat to my life (such as waking up to see a guy with a gun breaking in)and could pump me full of lead in an instant, he's getting blasted until he hits the floor.

If I find someone robbing my house unarmed or a perp does not have the ability to easily kill me or others, he's getting a warning and a strong hint to get on the floor while someone else calls 911.

Keltyke
July 13, 2008, 10:34 PM
"If you are going to shoot, shoot, don't talk about it." -- The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

This isn't a movie, it's real life. If you wait until it's time to shoot, the 2 seconds (if you're really good) it takes to get your gun out and aimed may just be two seconds too long.

The police don't wait until it's time to shoot. They got the BG drawn down on and dead to rights. Now it's "Drop the gun, get down on the ground." over and over. If he drops it, the situation is over, NO SHOTS FIRED, EVERYONE ALIVE. And despite what some in here may wish, THAT'S the perfect scenario. If he even twitches that gun hand, he's dead on the spot. What's the advantage in waiting until the last split second to draw?

Sportdog
July 13, 2008, 11:02 PM
#5 Walk around locked, cocked, and ready to rock. Shoot first, ask questions later. Dead BG's make the best witnesses.:eek: It's either that.......or the truth....... which is #2. :D

Playboypenguin
July 13, 2008, 11:11 PM
The key to my answer is when do you draw?
Then I think you meant to chose #1 and not #3. :)

BillCA
July 13, 2008, 11:48 PM
Of the options, the only one that makes any real sense is #2, IMHO. And that's pretty much the way things are for me.

There might be a time when I simply draw and fire. No words, warnings or anything. But if we practice our situational awareness even a little bit, we stand a very good chance of avoiding the situation or being prepared for the criminal.


1. Never draw until the last second when there is no other option but to fire immediately.
a) You then stake your physical ability to draw & fire against that of someone already in the act of attempting to seriously hurt you.
b) As some 91.7% of firearms incidents end without a shot fired1 when the defender displays a firearm, why would you deprive yourself of a less-than-lethal opportunity to end a confrontation?



2. Draw your weapon as soon as a threat reaches a sufficient level and only fire if threat continues.
"Sufficient level" will depend upon the capability of the defender to respond to the threat level. An older person or one with a physical disadvantage cannot necessarily wait until the last second.

3. Always fire your weapon if you ever have to draw it... period.
Such absolutist statements are frightening. They also assume blazing speed on the draw. In the 1.5 seconds a reasonably fast CCW draw might take your attacker may turn and flee or otherwise cease his threat. What then? Shoot a fleeing person? Shoot a surrendering subject? Can you say can of worms?

4. I will draw if I have to but would never fire my weapon.
This begs the question of why you even have a firearm with you in the first place. Return gun to safe, work on mindset and legal understandings before carrying again.



Footnote:
1. From 1993 Kleck-Gertz study on defensive gun use.

DeathRodent
July 14, 2008, 12:32 AM
I would go with # 2.

A good example is you are answering a door late at night you may want the gun drawen and your hand along your side not brandishing but more available than having to draw.

Although when I was in the military we were taught to draw, aim and fire and all three never only draw or aim because if the threat was serious rnough to draw you hd better shoot.

I think a BIG part of the reason is they didn't want young GIs playing around with their weapons realizing that if the gun was in the holster there was less chance of an NG.

HKFan9
July 14, 2008, 03:47 AM
I'd agree with #2 but I have read somewhere while doing research on a anti gun control law paper for a writing class I was taking and happened to read somewhere that 95% of crimes stopped with out the civilian even un-holstering the weapon, the mere presentation of it in a holster was enough to deter a lot of threats. I can't remember where I read it but it made me think to myself about your particular question. Personally I came to the conclusion if someone poses a threat to me where I would feel the need to show my weapon, I would not leave it in the holster. If I'm going to show a BG my firearm its going to be fixed center mass on him and he will get one warning to run a way. If someone doesn't run from a gun pointed at them they have a serious problem.

BTW I made so many good points about how most gun control laws are only punishing law abiding citizens that my Professor LOVED IT. He liked it so much, and he is neither for or against guns btw, but he kept it to show to future classes. If I can find it I will post it up, but I'm not a professional writer by any means.

KMO
July 14, 2008, 08:06 AM
BillCA wrote,

Such absolutist statements are frightening. They also assume blazing speed on the draw. In the 1.5 seconds a reasonably fast CCW draw might take your attacker may turn and flee or otherwise cease his threat. What then? Shoot a fleeing person? Shoot a surrendering subject? Can you say can of worms?

Can you say, Joe Horne?

Avenger11
July 14, 2008, 05:00 PM
None of the above! I will draw my weapon at the very first sign of a threat and fire if it escalates. I'm not going to try and Psycho- analyze the BG before I ACT!! Your instincts and training will determine your actions, not a bunch of what ifs! Therefore this thread makes little sense.

Playboypenguin
July 14, 2008, 05:06 PM
None of the above! I will draw my weapon at the very first sign of a threat and fire if it escalates
So, are you going to be pulling a gun on everyone that walks behind you in a parking garage or looks at you funny at a bus stop and then just see where it goes???

You statement is screaming for a little more clarification. :)

starshooter231
July 14, 2008, 05:24 PM
2. Draw your weapon as soon as a threat reaches a sufficient level and only fire if threat continues.

This would be the group I fall into.

Avenger11
July 14, 2008, 08:27 PM
You totally missed the point! First, there has to be a threat, not imagined, not based on internet could be's, or what if's! When a real threat is presented, then your instincts and training will dictate your reaction.
If you still require clarification, then explain your lack of understanding of the basics CCW?

Playboypenguin
July 14, 2008, 08:55 PM
You totally missed the point! First, there has to be a threat, not imagined, not based on internet could be's, or what if's! When a real threat is presented, then your instincts and training will dictate your reaction.
If you still require clarification, then explain your lack of understanding of the basics CCW?
What do you consider a threat? How do you know your perception of a threat is accurate? At what point do you decide to draw your weapon? Your first post makes it sound like you draw the very second you perceive any type of threat. Does that mean if I happen to be parked next to you in a parking garage and happen to be walking right behind you from the elevator to your car you are going to whirl around and pull your gun on me? That is a complete lack of understanding the rules of defense. At the first perception of a threat you do not automatically jump to guns drawn. You quickly analyze the situation and proceed accordingly. You are skipping a lot of essential steps. That is asking to loose your CCL and perhaps spend a nice quite time in the country jail getting to know the dregs of society.

tplumeri
July 14, 2008, 10:01 PM
perhaps spend a nice quite time in the country jail getting to know the dregs of society.


Hey!, I met some fine folks in the county jail!;)

rb4browns
July 14, 2008, 10:07 PM
#2 Draw when you perceive a threat. I draw, and release the safety upon completion. Use the drawn gun and verbal commands, "Stop or I'll shoot!", to force the perp to back down or to effect your escape. If the threat escalates, do not hesitate to pull the trigger. Don't wait until the last moment to draw, you may not have a last moment at that point.

Scenario:
A perp approaches with a gun in his hand, pointing at the ground. You draw yours and point it at his chest. He stops. "Drop the gun!" over and over. As long as he's not advancing and hasn't raised the gun, there's no need to fire. He's in your sights, if he even twitches that gun hand or continues to advance, you have him cold.

If a perp approaches with a gun in his hand I draw and fire immediately. You are a dead man walking if you think you "have him cold." The only time you truly have a man with a gun "cold" is after he has died from the shock or wound channels your hollowpoints have inflicted or he has bled out on the sidewalk.

Avenger11
July 15, 2008, 05:58 PM
My point is that if I perceive a threat, then I will act! I'm not going to wait until someone suspicious gets the upper hand!!
So if you look or act gnarly around me I will draw! If it turns out Iv'e mis-judged the situation, then I'll apologize, but not regret following my instincts and training.
Concealed carry is useless unless you have the common sense to know a threat when you see it.

Playboypenguin
July 15, 2008, 05:59 PM
So if you look or act gnarly around me I will draw! If it turns out Iv'e mis-judged the situation, then I'll apologize, but not regret following my instincts and training.
You left out the last part..."go to jail."

cschwanz
July 15, 2008, 06:28 PM
As a cover-all for most situations, I would say I fit into category #2. Obviously there could be situations that would sway my feelings, but lets hope those never come about

Avenger11
July 15, 2008, 07:35 PM
Go to jail for what! I'd rather take my chances with the law, than wait for the BG to shoot me because I took too much time to analyze his mental state.Your imagined restraint will get you killed!

Playboypenguin
July 15, 2008, 07:43 PM
Go to jail for what! I'd rather take my chances with the law, than wait for the BG to shoot me because I took too much time to analyze his mental state.Your imagined restraint will get you killed!
Wow, do you really believe this stuff? Or are just a Rambo type on the internet?

You ever pull your gun on me without just cause and I will do everything in my power to see you in jail and loose your right to carry.

Avenger11
July 15, 2008, 08:06 PM
No Rambo here! Just a regular guy that does believe that stuff! Would welcome defending myself in court.

Playboypenguin
July 15, 2008, 08:06 PM
Would welcome defending myself in court.
:rolleyes:

paddling_man
July 15, 2008, 08:51 PM
Definitely #2.

Further, no offense, but I would feel pretty comfortable with PBP having my back - both during a tense situation and afterwards, speaking with the police. Avenger, man you would get us both stuck in the pokey. At least in the States I've lived in... That, or you live a charmed life and know every judge/leo in your locale. That attitude just wouldn't work in Daytona, St Louis or Indy. No way on the west coast, where those folks have to fight for CCW rights tooth and nail.

Playboypenguin
July 15, 2008, 08:59 PM
Further, no offense, but I would feel pretty comfortable with PBP having my back - both during a tense situation and afterwards, speaking with the police. Avenger, man you would get us both stuck in the pokey. At least in the States I've lived in... That, or you live a charmed life and know every judge/leo in your locale. That attitude just wouldn't work in Daytona, St Louis or Indy. No way on the west coast, where those folks have to fight for CCW rights tooth and nail.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but you might want to find someone to have your back that would be less likely to run away at the first sign of trouble than me. :o

As for Avenger11, I think that is all an internet put on or at least bluff. Anyone that actually acted like that would either be in prison or run out of guns after people kept feeding them to them (if they were lucky enough to have them chose that particular orifice to deposit the gun into). :)

The Meatman
July 16, 2008, 01:05 AM
LOL...well spoken Master Splinter! Keep the Foot Clan in line! :D

Avenger11
July 16, 2008, 06:34 PM
So we invest in firearms, training and range time only to retreat at the first sign of trouble??? Call it an internet put on or bluff, but I take my SD seriously. Just glad I don't live in the liberal Pussific Northwest!!

Playboypenguin
July 16, 2008, 06:39 PM
So we invest in firearms, training and range time only to retreat at the first sign of trouble??? Call it an internet put on or bluff, but I take my SD seriously. Just glad I don't live in the liberal Pussific Northwest!!
*giggle* You're funny. :)

Nnobby45
July 16, 2008, 06:56 PM
Having plans, being aware, knowing where cover is in a parking garage, etc. make good sense.

However, preconceived, unflexible plans that never seem to fit the situation, based on inexperientially derived fantasies, are what all the bickering seems to be about. Back and forth, back and forth, like prepubscents at recess.

Those who have actually been there indicate that things happen real fast, turn to confusion and caos. Most always.

Seems to me that drawing a weapon when an attack looks imminent, but before it actually begins makes sense. Might not be time to access your weapon, otherwise.

But even that is highly subjective and subject to scrutiny by the court system. But, then again, any SD situation involving a gun is going to be anyway. Draw too fast, it's brandishing. Draw too late--well you get the idea.

Nothin' personal. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Scattergun Bob
July 16, 2008, 09:18 PM
In the heat of some of our posts I often forget to go back to the basics. It seems that some of the discussion is about the understanding of what is a threat.

My defension of "threat" is fairly basic and easy to understand (read flash identify) and it has nothing to do with: "So if you look or act gnarly around me I will draw! If it turns out Iv'e mis-judged the situation, then I'll apologize"

Rule # 2. Know exactly when I can use my gun.

A predator must have or reasonably appear to have:

the ability to inflict serious bodily harm or death upon me. (He is armed)

the opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm. (distance, body type, position)

his intent indicates that he means to inflict serious bodily harm or death upon me. (mere words are not enough)

When all 3 of these element are in place simultaneously, THIS IS A THREAT STIMULUS!
The response to a threat stimulus ; zero muzzle, flash sight picture, exercise trigger control, deliver a minimum response.

There may be better ways of explaining a Threat, but in my opion this is the minimum required.

"If it turns out Iv'e mis-judged the situation, then I'll apologize" if you focus my attention on you by drawing for no reason, you may not have the chance.:cool:

Keltyke
July 16, 2008, 09:35 PM
So we invest in firearms, training and range time only to retreat at the first sign of trouble???

Absolutely right. The perfect scenario is where no one gets hurt, killed, or robbed, etc. Retreating buys you TIME - very important! Some states MANDATE that you retreat if possible.

If I can retreat with my weapon, take cover, and not have to engage - I've won the fight.

If retreating buys me a couple of seconds to get my gun out and properly aimed to I can get off stopping shots - I've won the fight.

If I am alert and sense trouble starting and I get the heck out of Dodge without having to engage - I've won the fight.

We invest in firearms, training and range time so, if we can't retreat, we can meet the threat successfully.

BillCA
July 16, 2008, 10:16 PM
My point is that if I perceive a threat, then I will act! I'm not going to wait until someone suspicious gets the upper hand!!
So if you look or act gnarly around me I will draw! If it turns out Iv'e mis-judged the situation, then I'll apologize, but not regret following my instincts and training.
Concealed carry is useless unless you have the common sense to know a threat when you see it.

I used to ride a Honda Goldwing touring bike and every year the Harley crowd would have their annual rally/kegger party here in one of the Northern California towns. Harley riders vary from the Christian M/C club (some are priests and ministers) to the Hells Angels. But they don't really care for "rice burners". But gnarly, tough, suspicious they can be (plus many are ex-cons). Fortunately I have a sense of humor and knowing Sonny Barger personally helped. Drawing a gun on some of these guys is a good way to find out what it tastes like. :eek:

You'd be a lot of fun there. :D I imagine you'd be about as confused as a baby in a topless bar.

There are parts of East San Jose or L.A. where if you draw, it will only escalate the situation if you aren't Hispanic yourself. The guy may back away, but four, six or nine others may start shouting at you in angry tones.

It is one thing to "prepare", by discretely withdrawing the gun and having it alongside your leg because the three guys appear to be following you. Or to covertly transfer it to a jacket pocket as you approach a stairwell or elevator.

But it's inappropriate to draw and point a weapon unless you know there is an actual threat.

JRAR78
July 17, 2008, 04:31 AM
# 2

jackmcmanus21
July 17, 2008, 09:13 AM
I'm from the school of "better to be safe than sorry". If I feel there is a threat, I'm not going to hesitate to take my firearm out. Remember it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission, and I don't want to end up in the ground because I was the nice guy giving the benefit of the doubt.

Scattergun Bob
July 17, 2008, 04:12 PM
Other than the old Alam Rock Cafe and over priced Reeds Gun shop, why in the world would you what to travel in "that part" of East San Jose?

Avenger11
July 17, 2008, 06:18 PM
Ok, so I'm going to stand there trying to analyze the BG's ability, opportunity, and intent??? Give me a break!! I'll be dead by that time!! At my age with bad knees, retreat is not an option.
If you can't recognize gnarly behavior, or sense a real threat, then you have no business owning a firearm for SD.
BG's rely on your lack of training, hesitancy, and vulnerability!!

TripIII
July 17, 2008, 10:07 PM
#1 for bad guys...click-bang

#2 for bad dogs

Scattergun Bob
July 17, 2008, 10:07 PM
I suggest that it takes less time to recognize a threat using this classic method, than you can trying your "method", or rather NO METHOD.

"So if you look or act gnarly around me I will draw"! these are your words, and they do not justify drawing in my state. I really don't care if you like it, it simply is what it is.

Good Luck & Be Safe

BillCA
July 18, 2008, 03:33 PM
Ok, so I'm going to stand there trying to analyze the BG's ability, opportunity, and intent??? Give me a break!! I'll be dead by that time!! At my age with bad knees, retreat is not an option.
If you can't recognize gnarly behavior, or sense a real threat, then you have no business owning a firearm for SD.

The acronym is MMO - Means, Motive, Opportunity. It's much easier that you'd guess.

If a person has a weapon or clenches his hands into fists, he has the means by which to commit an assault upon your person.

Motive can be established explicitly through threats, words or actions. Implicitly it can be established through actions, such as one or more persons following, chasing, or simply approaching in a 'rude, angry or threatening manner'.

Opportunity - if they're there and within useful striking distance of any weapons they have, they have the opportunity.

So, yes, you can calculate the threat using MMO and you probably do it on your own. I'd not draw on some cretin with a baseball bat who is yelling threats at me from across a 4-lane divided highway. Nor should you.

If I'm walking to my car in a parking garage and notice a pair of scuzzy types that appear to be following or looking to intercept, withdrawing my sidearm and keeping a low profile might be warranted. Especially if they continue after I abruptly change course or backtrack.

pax
July 18, 2008, 04:08 PM
Ok, so I'm going to stand there trying to analyze the BG's ability, opportunity, and intent??? Give me a break!! I'll be dead by that time!! At my age with bad knees, retreat is not an option.

If you can't recognize gnarly behavior, or sense a real threat, then you have no business owning a firearm for SD.

BG's rely on your lack of training, hesitancy, and vulnerability!!


It's amazing how vehemently some people will defend their own ignorance -- and the last sentence is truly ... ironic ... in view of the first one.

Lack of training is indeed a killer. So is hesitancy, even more so. But knowing the rules of engagement does not cause hesitancy. Rather, knowing the rules enables you to act swiftly and decisively when the moment of truth arrives.

If you've had the training, analyzing a situation as it unfolds isn't a complex hairy deal. It's just part of understanding what is going on and making smart plans to deal with it.

If you haven't had the training, the basic concepts sound so complex that you are certain it's impossible to understand anything at all, and are reduced to making choices based upon nothing more than ignorant guesses and feelings.

Too bad!

pax

Uncle Ben
July 18, 2008, 04:36 PM
#2, and for the same explanation that you gave in the original post

Avenger11
July 18, 2008, 06:19 PM
Too bad how many soldiers have been killed, because some bureaucrat, thousands of miles away from the action, dictated rules of engagement that completely stripped them of their ability to act on instinct and training to protect themselves. That is the epitome of ignorance!
I'm officially in the elderly category, so I guess I'm slow by your definition and should just leave SD to the younger folks. Most training programs don't address our issues because we are incapable of training or too dense to recognize a threat.
Common sense is a trait you acquire with life experience, not thru some training class or cruising web sites.
I'm confident in my abilities to know when a theat is real and accept responsibility for my actions.

Scattergun Bob
July 18, 2008, 07:11 PM
You said "I'm officially in the elderly category, so I guess I'm slow by your definition and should just leave SD to the younger folks. Most training programs don't address our issues because we are incapable of training or too dense to recognize a threat."

Louie, Clint, Mas, Chuck and myself are all well past 60, all of us have a code of conduct and all of us teach it. Quit whining and understand that hardheadedness is often misdiagnosed as "old man's" disease. Understand that the very rules of engagement that you are disputing help keep all of us safe.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

Good Luck & Be Safe

Avenger11
July 18, 2008, 08:07 PM
The only rules of engagement that I dispute are the ones that require that no action be taken until the threat has advanced beyond my ability to deal with it!
I'm OK with ageeing to disagree, but when I've been labeled ignorant by a staff member here, then I have a problem.

Scattergun Bob
July 18, 2008, 08:42 PM
I AM NOT suggesting that you allow the enemy any more advantage than necessary. I totally agree that once a threat exists, take aggressive / savage action and SOLVE THE PROBLEM. I am only suggesting that gnarly doesn't meet my standard to draw and zero my weapon. :)

Good Luck & Be Safe

pax
July 18, 2008, 08:43 PM
Avenger ~

I am sorry that my truthful statement that you were ignorant of some important principles hurt your feelings. I really am, because it was not intended as an insult in any way. There's nothing shameful about being ignorant (as Will Rogers once observed, everyone is ignorant, only on different subjects).

As far as I can tell, nobody has said you have to hold your fire until the situation has become impossible for you to deal with. That is your own interpretation of what others have said, your response to hearing what you perceived to be complex ideas. But the ideas aren't that complex. They are actually rather simple. Once you understand them, you'll be able to respond much more decisively to a threat, from a strong position of knowledge.

Don't get me wrong. There's nothing the matter with "gut instinct" when it comes to deciding whether you are in danger. But once you have decided there's a danger, you don't have to lower yourself to the brute level of an animal in order to protect your own life. You can listen to your instincts while allowing reason, logic, and clear thinking to help you survive both the immediate situation and the completely predictable and inevitable results that will follow from your actions.

Think of the "Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy (Intent)" triad as an important, fast, simple way to validate (and later to articulate) your own instincts. When you understand these basics before there's a need to use them, your own responses to a threat can be both faster and more decisive.

pax,

Kathy

Keltyke
July 19, 2008, 07:58 AM
I am only suggesting that gnarly doesn't meet my standard to draw and zero my weapon.

And you are absolutely right. In SC, the ONLY reason for legally drawing your weapon is you are "in imminent fear of your life or grave bodily injury." You can also draw in defense of someone else, IF you believe "any reasonable person", if they had a gun, would do the same thing. However, that's a fine legal line that might get you in trouble. As others have stated, motive, means, opportunity must ALL exist before you can shoot. What everyone is forgetting is the scene can go from Condition Green to Defcon 1 in a couple of seconds. You must be ALERT, and react quickly, but not prematurely.

David Armstrong
July 22, 2008, 02:26 PM
Common sense is a trait you acquire with life experience, not thru some training class or cruising web sites.
The amazing things about comon sense are how uncommon it is and how often it doesn't make any sense. You resort to a firearm for SD when you cannot retreat, not to avoid retreat. You resort to a firearm as a last resort, not a first choice. You shoot when you have to, not when you want to.

Keltyke
July 22, 2008, 03:08 PM
Exactly right!

Brian Pfleuger
July 22, 2008, 03:14 PM
While our "good guy" was giving verbal warnings from 20 feet, our instructor illustrated that the BG was able to cover that 20 feet with his knife in under 2 seconds, even faster if knows how to throw the thing.

Our local LEO are taught that a knife within 25 feet is IMMEDIATE threat for that very reason. I have seen many videos showing that you can be slashed/stabbed by BG running from 25 feet away before ANYONE could draw their weapon and make a shot.

Incidentally, I say #2.

gyrfalcon16
July 22, 2008, 03:45 PM
In response to the question, I would pick #2...

In regards to the comment: The only rules of engagement that I dispute are the ones that require that no action be taken until the threat has advanced beyond my ability to deal with it!...

I've seen a number of elderly people at concealed carry classes. Some have trouble walking, some have shaky hands, and they definitely have difficulty racking or manipulating a firearm. When someone is unable to safely handle a firearm they shouldn't use it. I feel it's similar to driving a car.

If it takes you 5 seconds to draw and ready your weapon maybe you should consider alternative forms of self defense.

Maybe something like a satchel charge rigged to your first alert necklace? :D

Stevie-Ray
July 22, 2008, 08:58 PM
2. Draw your weapon as soon as a threat reaches a sufficient level and only fire if threat continues.

Scattergun Bob
July 22, 2008, 09:25 PM
Son, there is a huge difference between confident and cocky. The difference is that there MAY be a time when it takes 5 seconds to get on target and fix the problem. The confident individual will never stop, never quiet, never surrender. Cocky folks like you tend to fall apart.

Ed Mc Givern and Jeff Cooper both had hand tremors and had slowed considerably from their youth, I still would not have wanted either shooting at me.

Good Luck & Be Safe

gyrfalcon16
July 23, 2008, 03:30 PM
Son, there is a huge difference between confident and cocky. The difference is that there MAY be a time when it takes 5 seconds to get on target and fix the problem. The confident individual will never stop, never quiet, never surrender. Cocky folks like you tend to fall apart.

Cocky? I was actually trying for humorous, but I guess I failed.

Some people have reached an age where they can not safely use a firearm, especially in a close quarters self-defense situation.

pax
July 23, 2008, 06:37 PM
Some people have reached an age where they can not safely use a firearm, especially in a close quarters self-defense situation.

<sarcasm>

Yeah... and those people should just give up and die if they are confronted with a lethal force situation, because it is better for the strong young attacker to live instead...

</sarcasm>

:D

Seriously, gyrfalcon, the error in thinking here is the same tempting one that too many fall for: the idea that the danger to witnesses from the actions of a deliberate murderer is always minimal, while the danger to witnesses and bystanders from the defensive actions of an intended victim is really astronomical.

The danger to the witnesses is actually much greater from the cold-blooded and deliberate actions of the attacker than it is from the defender, no matter how feeble or how poor a shot the defender might be.

If the defender succeeds, the attacker stops immediately. If the defender makes a mistake, one or two unaimed shots might escape the area. If the defender fails, the attacker commits that murder and then turns on the witnesses -- leaving the witnesses in no worse shape than they were to begin with, and perhaps a bit better off if the actions of the unsuccessful defender bought them enough time to escape.

And if there are no witnesses to be deliberately slain by the attacker after the successful murder ... then who could possibly be harmed by the lone old geezer trying to defend himself?

pax

WIN71
July 23, 2008, 07:50 PM
I don't know, about the last thing I want to face is a feeble, half blind, shaky old geezer with a gun. I'd be taking leg bail. I know you're young and out there in the trenches sort of speak, but lets not forget who dug those trenches...........

Avenger11
July 24, 2008, 05:06 PM
Don't knock the old geezers cause you will all be one someday, and I guarantee your perspective will change.

gyrfalcon16
July 28, 2008, 11:58 PM
And if there are no witnesses to be deliberately slain by the attacker after the successful murder ... then who could possibly be harmed by the lone old geezer trying to defend himself?

Have any of you watched someone try to ready a firearm, drop the mag on the ground then jam the gun and be unable to clear it before firing a shot?

My point was basically that people need to consider what they do and the ramifications it has on others and themselves. If you're incompetent driving or using a firearm you should no longer do so.

Hell old people do whatever they want anyhow. I'll shut up now.

Southern_guy
July 29, 2008, 06:47 PM
I'm for number two. You've got to at least give the guy a chance to save his life, and shooting just because your gun is unholstered is idiotic.

Avenger11
July 29, 2008, 07:07 PM
Incompetence is not age related!! But knowledge, experience, and wisdom is!! When you grow up, you will understand the difference.