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View Full Version : Will a 12 Gauge Loaded with BB Shot Stop a Man Effectively??


LanceOregon
July 12, 2008, 09:23 PM
Here is a demo of a Remington 870 shooting magnum loads of BB shot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcUf6iTv_aQ

Do you believe that a human being could survive these hits??? Or would they be near instantly fatal?

.

Slopemeno
July 13, 2008, 12:10 AM
I know they have.

I know (worked 3 doors down, know the owner) a gunstore that was in the midst of a robbery, and one of the guys working in the back rolled out with a 12 ga and centerpunched the bad guy from very short range with birdshot. Bad guy survived and went to state prison.

Very dramatic, but no comparison.

David Armstrong
July 13, 2008, 02:27 AM
Somebody, somewhere, has survived just about every PDW ever made, and some that are a lot bigger. So yes, some can survive, some have survived, but a 12 gauge loaded with large pellets is probably about as effective a stopper as most of us are likely encounter.

MisterWilson
July 13, 2008, 03:51 AM
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

No.

Birdshot is for birds.

I would likely stop them, but why bother with likely when you, or more importantly your FAMILY'S, asses are on the line.

jimkim
July 13, 2008, 06:28 AM
At close range, I believe it does more damage than buckshot. The birdshot wounds I've seen were devastating. So were the buckshot wounds, but not to nearly the same degree. Keep in mind this was at close range. These were all within 10 yards.

DMacLeod
July 13, 2008, 08:27 AM
Here's my thoughts on 12 ga for home defense. First leave the BBs for the birds or other game. I want to be able to control the amount of lead that could be fired in my home.
http://www.picturehosting.com/images/DMacLeod/homedef1.jpg

http://www.picturehosting.com/images/DMacLeod/homedef2.jpg

mikejonestkd
July 13, 2008, 08:47 AM
I am reminded of my hunter safety class when I was a lad;

The instructor took a large head of cabbage and placed it on a post 20 feet from us. He informed us that it was significantly tougher than a human skull.

One shot of a 12 ga Mag goose load of BB shot and it was destroyed like the watermelons in the video. Our 12 year old eyes went WIDE with newfound respect for ' bird shot ' LOL

Take a look a the size chart: http://www.wilsonprecision.com/shotinfo.html

B and BB shot is no where near what is commonly thought of as ' bird ' shot like number 6, 7 or 8.

I would not feel undergunned with a mag load of B or BB shot.

Double Naught Spy
July 13, 2008, 09:24 AM
Do you believe that a human being could survive these hits??? Or would they be near instantly fatal?

False dichotomy. A human may not survive the hits, but the hits may not be instantly fatal, LOL!

KMO
July 13, 2008, 09:31 AM
If the objctive is to stop someone by using a 12-gauge shotgun for personal defense, why would one consider any load (BB or other bird shot) that leaves any doubt whatsoever regarding its effectiveness in doing the job reliably? 00 buck removes all doubt. It's as dependable a load for defense purposes as any available.

KCabbage
July 13, 2008, 09:54 AM
Greetings all.
Are you concerned with overpenetration? If so, load up some #4(approx. 34 pellets) or #1 buck(approx. 16 pellets). Please don't use birdshot for protection.
I remember a story of a police officer that was practicing at the range with birdshot to save money and when he was done he forgot to load up his duty ammunition buckshot. Later that night he responded to a home invasion or something similar with two suspects. He grabbed his shotgun forgetting it was loaded with birdshot. A firefight ensued and the officer died while the 2 suspects got away.
Take care

obxned
July 13, 2008, 11:43 AM
There must be a reason the police use 00 Buck instead of BB shot. Until they switch, I'll stick with the buckshot.

Tim Burke
July 13, 2008, 11:53 AM
Depends on range, choke and shot placement. In general, something that penetrates more would be preferred.

Tim Burke
July 13, 2008, 11:58 AM
Watched the video. While impressive, melons are usually fairly impressive reactive targets because they are very inelastic, unlike muscle and skin.

rantingredneck
July 13, 2008, 12:16 PM
I'll stick with 00 with Brenneke's as backup.

MisterWilson
July 13, 2008, 01:24 PM
Any bird shot load will make horrendous-LOOKING shallow wounds.

However, will it penetrate a foot through flesh or gelatin? Until it does, you folks are out of your everliving minds if you think using it for defense is even semi-acceptable.

Pilot
July 13, 2008, 01:39 PM
I don't use a shotgun for home defense, just for bird hunting. I took two handgun courses with a very experienced well know instructor who also teaches shotgun courses. For home defense he recommended a 12 gauge with bird shot instead of 00 buck. He said penetration thorugh walls and doors was an issue with the buck shot. Again, I'm not advocating, just passing it along.

MisterWilson
July 13, 2008, 02:04 PM
It's an issue with any firearm fired in a wood frame home, but worrying about the neighbors comes somewhere AFTER worrying about me & mine on my list of priorities.

That's not to say I don't want them to be safe as well, but stopping an immediate threat quickly & completely comes first and foremost.

My family > The Neighbors

rantingredneck
July 13, 2008, 02:15 PM
I don't use a shotgun for home defense, just for bird hunting. I took two handgun courses with a very experienced well know instructor who also teaches shotgun courses. For home defense he recommended a 12 gauge with bird shot instead of 00 buck. He said penetration thorugh walls and doors was an issue with the buck shot. Again, I'm not advocating, just passing it along.

Yep, buckshot will penetrate walls. Handgun rounds will too, and worse.

Superhouse 15
July 13, 2008, 02:54 PM
Your home and mine may not be the same. What if you have an open floor plan and your baby or invalid bed ridden grandma are "downrange"? I'm going to side with Clint Smith on this one. A load of #6 to the face or crotch will change the outcome of the fight. I will also add that a charge of BB or T shot will blast a big fat Coyote off of it's feet at 40 yards or so with a good choke putting lots of pellets on target. Imagine that at the 20 foot or so range from your bedroom door to front door, across your driveway or garage, etc.

In case some new folks haven't seen this:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Hawg
July 13, 2008, 02:56 PM
I've related this a couple of times before but a buddy of mine was shot from across a small room with a 12 gauge loaded with birdshot. He underwent a lot of surgery but he lived. The guy that shot him didn't survive the encounter and my buddy was unarmed. Now granted the gun was a single shot and if the guy had a pump or auto the outcome probably would have been different. One shot with birdshot may or may not stop an attacker. I put my money on 00 buckshot

Erik
July 13, 2008, 04:45 PM
To answer the question: No, a 12 guage loaded with BB shot should not be thought of as being able to stop a man effectively. Yes, that is a pretty broad and encompassing statement; it is in answer to a similarly broad and encompassing question.

Buckshot, for good reason, is the prevalent choice for police, military, and self defense uses. When it isn't the favored option, slugs are substituted, again for good reason.

Erik
July 13, 2008, 05:07 PM
Superhouse 15,
Not to nit-pick, but for clarity. You seem to be an advocate of sub-buckshot for self defense. And you stated: "I'm going to side with Clint Smith on this one."

You then referred to a Box of Truth review of a Clint Smith class. The text of which states:

"We were told to bring 400 rounds of birdshot, 150 rounds of #4 or 00 Buckshot, and 25 slugs."
and
"Clint doesn't recommend birdshot for defense, but it is a good and cheap load for practice."

Now, there's some confusion that might come out of that, as you can probably see.

Is there another article you could link to that could help us rectify what seems to be two positions, one that's an industry standard and one that's ... surprising, of Clint Smith's?

Thanks,
Erik

Stiofan
July 13, 2008, 05:19 PM
And I've posted before I had a high school friend who got half his head blown off from bird shot, or enough of it he lived on life support for only 3 hours. Until I see something different in RL which contradicts that experience I'll keep to my own opinions before being swayed by folks on an internet forum, no matter how well intentioned they believe they are. Sorry, seen the results first hand.

You guys can go back to your debate now.

shinnery jim
July 13, 2008, 05:23 PM
I agree that buck is the right thing. but in a pinch if all I had was bird shot I will darn sure use it:p will it take more than one? well that is the chance I will take if I dont have anything else.

MisterWilson
July 13, 2008, 05:24 PM
:rolleyes:

Umm, did him having his head attached to the barrel have anything to do with that?

Hawg
July 13, 2008, 05:36 PM
Sorry, seen the results first hand.

As have I. If you want to trust your life to birdshot it's no skin off my nose.

DeathRodent
July 14, 2008, 12:45 AM
I think the answer to using magnum BB loads is "range" or better yet "close range"

I would spend the money and buy some 00 buck but if for some reason all I had was magnum BB loads I would want to be at a range of 20 feet or less.

I patterned some 12 ga. 2 3/4 magnum BB out of a H&R single shot that had the barrel cut down to 18.25 inches at around 20 feet it made a nice 3 foot circle and that isn't good enougt to bet your life on.

Maybe you will get lucky and make a head shot that blinds a bad guy but like the old saying goes "there ain't no second place winners in a gun fight".

Spend a few bucks and buy some 00 buck.

As for slugs - I hope I don't live near anyone using those. They could go through a lot of walls.

MisterWilson
July 14, 2008, 12:48 AM
Well gosh, I'd better be glad that my next door neighbor who was robbed & beaten at gunpoint didn't have anything to shoot back with either.

Bill DeShivs
July 14, 2008, 12:56 AM
Deathrodent
At a range of 20 feet, the pattern should not and could not spread to 3 feet.
The pattern at that range would be well under 12 inches.

DeathRodent
July 14, 2008, 01:09 AM
It was a long time ago but it couldn't have been much more than 20 feet - we didn't measure.

But the pattern was huge we didn't measure it either but it was wau over 12" - remember it was out of a 18.25 inch cut down barrel.

If I ever get the chance I'll test it again I still have some of those magnum BBs leftover.

Bill DeShivs
July 14, 2008, 01:33 AM
I have shot a great many 18" cylinder bore shotguns and none patterned anywhere near that size. Most were between 3-4 inches at a measured 21 feet.

imp
July 14, 2008, 01:54 AM
I have 2 mossberg 590's with 20" cylinder bore barrels. With cheap birdshot (#7) at a range of 25 YARDS they pattern is somewhere in the 18" diameter range. At 7 yards, it would be considerably smaller, I just haven't patterned them at that close of a range in a while. I would guestimate they would pattern about 6" diameter.

imp
July 14, 2008, 01:58 AM
It was a long time ago but it couldn't have been much more than 20 feet - we didn't measure.

But the pattern was huge we didn't measure it either but it was wau over 12" - remember it was out of a 18.25 inch cut down barrel.

If I ever get the chance I'll test it again I still have some of those magnum BBs leftover.

If it was a do-it-youself cut down, there might have been some damage to the muzzle that could explain an extreme pattern like that. You can also get some pretty wicked patterns by loading 12ga with split-shot fishing sinkers instead of your average shot, and opening each one up 90 degrees, but thats a tedious process and not worth the effort. There are some specialty 12ga ammo available online that can do about the same thing.

JohnKSa
July 14, 2008, 02:07 AM
The instructor took a large head of cabbage and placed it on a post 20 feet from us. He informed us that it was significantly tougher than a human skull.He MISinformed you.

imp
July 14, 2008, 02:43 AM
Sounds like the instructor was a cabbage-head.

HKFan9
July 14, 2008, 03:32 AM
Shotgun for Self Defense

Step 1) Buy a 10 gauge.

Step 2) Go ask local shop owner for 10 gauge slugs and laugh at reaction. ( You get some odd looks lol)

Step 3) Order 10 gauge slugs offline (unless step 2 was lucky.)

Step 4) Learn to lean forward properly to handle recoil if need ever be to use it.


From shooting a 10 gauge..... a 12 feels like the 20 gauge I used to squirrel hunt with when I was younger, 10's are a lot of fun as well.

ISP2605
July 14, 2008, 08:28 AM
The first shooting I went to as a LEO involved a domestic where one guy shot another with a 20 ga loaded with #6 low brass at a distance of about 15 ft. Hit the guy COM in the xyphoid. Made a hole about the size of a golf ball with ragged edges. Dropped him where he stood. Shot had completely penetrated his body cavity and we found shot against his spine.
I don't recommend birdshot for self defense but don't minimize the effect and devastation it can cause at normal room sizes. It's very deadly. The downside to using birdshot for defense is it loses it's velocity quickly. If you knew all your shots would be taken within 5 to 10 yds then normal hunting rds would be very effective. The problem with defensive shootings is you don't get to pick and choose your combat distances.

rantingredneck
July 14, 2008, 08:41 AM
The problem with defensive shootings is you don't get to pick and choose your combat distances.

Exactly.........

The other problem with birdshot is that for every anecdote of someone dropping instantly from being shot with it, there is another anecdote of someone continuing to fight and sometimes even kill the person wielding the shotgun.

There are too many variables in each of our lives for one size to fit all when it comes to shotgun ammo. The good thing is you have choices.

I don't live in an apartment, my home is not a split floorplan with bedrooms on both sides. If I am shooting toward an intruder, I am shooting away from my family. The intruder, if he is shooting toward me, is shooting toward my family who would be behind me. I want him stopped, NOW. 00 buck and slugs tend to do that faster. Are they a guarantee?? No. But they're the best bet for a quick stop.

You may live in an apartment. You may have valid overpenetration concerns given your situation. In that case, you may be better served with smaller shot. Just don't expect it to "act like a slug" or "be effective at accross the room distances". Sometimes it might, sometimes it won't, sometimes you may have to shoot farther than across your bedroom. Have a plan B.

ActivShootr
July 14, 2008, 09:34 AM
Bird shot is for shooting cute little birdies not big scary bad guys. Save the BB for the Christmas goose and get some slugs or buck for SD.

Tuckahoe
July 14, 2008, 10:39 AM
My cousin was shot three times with 00 buck from less than 50 yds. He was badly hurt but recovered. Nothing is 100%.

ISP2605
July 14, 2008, 11:19 AM
One of my Troops took 3 rds from a .50 in VN. They didn't think he'd survive, he came home in a full body cast, and he's got so many scars from surgeries that he looks like he'd been attacked by sharks but here it is 40 yrs later and he's still alive doing fine.

David Armstrong
July 14, 2008, 11:20 AM
I don't recommend birdshot for self defense but don't minimize the effect and devastation it can cause at normal room sizes. It's very deadly. The downside to using birdshot for defense is it loses it's velocity quickly.
ISP sums it up quite well, and helps explain the varied anecdotes. Much depends on distance and shot size. Up close, any size shot will work fairly well, the farther away you get the less likely it is to work.

rantingredneck
July 14, 2008, 11:20 AM
My cousin was shot three times with 00 buck from less than 50 yds. He was badly hurt but recovered. Nothing is 100%.

And at "less than 50 yards" (I'm assuming it was close to 50 since that was your measurement) birdshot would have hurt even less.

Buckshot is not a terribly good 50 yard performer given most loads and most guns. All shot spreads. Round balls have poor SD and lose energy quickly.

50 yards is slug territory.

Glad your cousin recovered.

Bill DeShivs
July 14, 2008, 12:37 PM
"The problem with defensive shootings is you don't get to pick and choose your combat distances. "

In your home, you DO get to choose your distance! Smaller shot should work well.

LEOs don't get to choose, so buckshot is in order.
What cops need/use is completely different from the average citizen.

mikejonestkd
July 14, 2008, 01:59 PM
An interesting link to ballistic testing of shot pellets:

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

They got 11" of penetration with BB at 3 yards ( the FBI recommends 12" min )

So, it is not quite up to FBI standards but still much more than regular bird shot like #4, which penetrated only 6", or #8 which only penetrated 4.5"

Still for me, I would consider #4 buckshot the mininum with 00 being even better.

ckd
July 14, 2008, 02:13 PM
There are many variables, as others point out, proximity being pivotal. There is a big difference between gelatin, targets and drug/alcohol/mentally derranged attackers. Though I have seen several lethal "birdshoot" wounds, none were beyond 3 yards, most 1 yard or less, and all were solid torso or head shots.

Though I understand the legitimate concern for overpenetration in certian circumstances, there is no free lunch, less penetration will pertain to all strutures.

mountainclmbr
July 14, 2008, 11:02 PM
I also would consider #4 buck the minimum. I have some 3-inch magnums that have 41 pellets of #4 buck. In my house I would be firing between screaming wife and 4 dogs. The 4 dogs would be all over BG so I go with some slugs first, then 3-inch 00-buck in 12ga. Bear problems preclude the #4 buck option.

simonkenton
July 16, 2008, 03:24 PM
"NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

No.

Birdshot is for birds.

I would likely stop them, but why bother with likely when you, or more importantly your FAMILY'S, asses are on the line."

Mr. Wilson:
He has never seen anyone shot with birdshot.
He doesn't know what he is talking about.
Yet he speaks nonetheless.

Superhouse 15
July 16, 2008, 03:56 PM
I believe the article was in last month's Handgunner. Something about bargain shotguns IIRC. He also said the same thing on an episode of PDTV titled "using what you have". I would rather have a defensive load that fragmented and transferred a lot of energy than a load that penetrated excessively. Ask any paramedic, the lungs are easily reached with a 3" needle, less than 5 to the heart. If I were concerned with overpenetration of my walls and endangering my family and friends, I would load big birdshot, pick my fields of fire carefully, and not worry. This picture shows the light #4 Buck going through 3 interior walls. Same for the #1. The 00 goes through 3 to 4 walls. The slug would be in my neighbors kitchen. A pistol round is bad enough.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
In my house that's well into my son's room from anywhere I might fire. If I lived alone on a big lot it might be different. My needs may not be the same as yours.

imp
July 18, 2008, 02:56 AM
Kinda sums up my feelings exactly. For inside my house, I won't use anything bigger than #4 buck. But, if you live in an apartment with thin walls, you might want to go smaller. If you live next to a supermax prison with a narcoleptic squad of guards, you might want to use triple aught buck and keep Ma Duece on a tripod in the hallway. Just depends on what ya need.

jackmcmanus21
July 18, 2008, 08:54 AM
birdshot would slow him down, don't know if it would stop him. I agree with the comment above, I wouldnt want to risk my families safety with ineffective ammo

Crosshair
July 18, 2008, 07:37 PM
Ask any paramedic, the lungs are easily reached with a 3" needle, less than 5 to the heart.
Being able to reach those organs is one thing. Being able to cause enough damage to incapacitate an attacker is another thing. Just pointing that out.

Bill DeShivs
July 18, 2008, 07:52 PM
Since many of you have apparently not shot a shotgun, I can tell you this:
A magnum load of 12 ga. BB shot at close (HD) range will blow a large hole very nearly through a man. "But-what about the FBI's recommended 12" of penetration? What if his arm is in the way?"
He won't have an arm-at least much of one, anyway-and there will be a large, deep hole behind what is left of his arm.
I find it comical that people can not comprehend this!
If, for some miraculous reason a shot like this did not instantaneously render an attacker immobile, I can guarantee he will be going in the other direction-not towards you.

Rifleman 173
July 18, 2008, 09:04 PM
00 buckshot works well for most self defense shooting needs. Why mess around with lighter weight shot in the first place? For anybody to survive ANY kind of shooting with a 12 guage shotgun is very unusual. Strange that a suspect get hits with a load of birdshot at close range and lives. I would guess that the suspect did not directly take the shot head on but was hit with a glancing shot.

jamaica
July 25, 2008, 01:30 PM
Since many of you have apparently not shot a shotgun, I can tell you this:
A magnum load of 12 ga. BB shot at close (HD) range will blow a large hole very nearly through a man. "But-what about the FBI's recommended 12" of penetration? What if his arm is in the way?"
He won't have an arm-at least much of one, anyway-and there will be a large, deep hole behind what is left of his arm.
I find it comical that people can not comprehend this!
If, for some miraculous reason a shot like this did not instantaneously render an attacker immobile, I can guarantee he will be going in the other direction-not towards you.

You got it right!

Folks, you gotta remember that a 12 gauge load of birdshot has 1.25 ounces of lead in it. At ranges less than 20 feet, there isn't much spread, it is all pretty much together. The impact of that load won't go un-noticed. Yes, I have seen the damage this will do to critters at close range, but I have never seen a man shot with a shotgun (and hope never to).

To answer your question directly. Yes, if you can hit your target in the right spot.

Are there better choices of shot size for HD? Yes.

brickeyee
July 25, 2008, 02:05 PM
And I've posted before I had a high school friend who got half his head blown off from bird shot, or enough of it he lived on life support for only 3 hours. Until I see something different in RL which contradicts that experience I'll keep to my own opinions before being swayed by folks on an internet forum, no matter how well intentioned they believe they are. Sorry, seen the results first hand.

Range is everything.
A blank close enough would easily have done the same thing.
Heads are not designed to contain 15,000 PSI pressures.

Ever read Jeff Cooper's account of someone who committed suicide with a blank from a center fire rifle?

Small shot looses energy very rapidly.
I have been peppered from the other side of the lake.
Annoying but not especially dangerous (and why you always wear suitable eye protection).
An ex-girlfriends father was hit from about 50 feet with a load of bird shot.
It took plastic surgery to clean all the pellets out, but he was just fine.
It did ruin the jacket he had on though.

FerFAL
July 25, 2008, 11:22 PM
Birdshot is for birds.
:rolleyes:
And 50 BMG is an anti-material round. But it still kills you just as well.

At greater distances buckshot will be more effectice, but at "inside the house" distances, birdshot will work effectively, almost like buckshot but without the overpenetration.

Lots of bad guys killed with "birdshot". I dont know of anyone that got popped with it at close range and still managed to fight back. Alive? Maybe, sure. But there wont be much fight left in him after a center mass hit with ANY 12 ga round at close range.

FerFAL

Scattergun Bob
July 25, 2008, 11:54 PM
Honestly folks,

If your scattergun is loaded with birdshot, take the shot. Beyond that the following is hard fought truth.

At close quarters and contact distance ALL shot will perform about the same. We are talking 10 ft and closer. Beyond that disance the energy retention of small shot is UNEXCEPTABLE for use against human and larger targets.

Most of you take exception when I continue to rant about "rule #1 have a gun with in reason any gun will do", you all protest about enough rounds and effective "stopping power" in your pistols. Yet some of you are willing to carry Less in one of the most effective stoppers in your weapons arsenal! I am confused by the contradiction!

By the way, birdshot is used in training classes to save the gun and shooters shoulder. Take no other reference from that fact.

Good Luck & Be Safe

Nnobby45
July 26, 2008, 12:07 AM
Clint Smith recommends birdshot for dealing with Bubba down the hallway. There are others who think it's fine for home defense with penetration being the concern.

I wouldn't feel too bad off with birdshot, but prefer buck, and when I leave the house, it's buck or slugs.

Scattergun Bob
July 26, 2008, 12:19 AM
Please tell me that was a miss print! Clint is recommending birdshot!!!!!! If that is the case, I recommend not taking his advise. I have worked with Clint and he is a God with a carbine and pistol, I have never seen any of his stuff for shotgun, birdshot for bad guys is a BAD idea no matter from who's lips it comes from.

guntotin_fool
July 26, 2008, 12:24 AM
OK lesson Number one. Everybody go find a tape measure. Now, sitting in your house look around, and then measure what is the longest shot you can make inside your house.


no, go, do it, I'll wait.


NOW, convert that distance in feet to yards, Yup, divide the number every 12 inches by 3. For most of you, the longest straight line is going to be somewhere around 18 feet, or 6 yards, there will be a few who might push that, but in most houses, a 12x18 foot living room is the largest dimension.

You may go corner to corner on that room, and get something like 21.8 feet, or 7 yards.


Now comes the fun part, drive around and look for a dead dog that is pretty much whole, or get a heavy coat, and stuff it full of a deer carcase. Now back up seven steps and shoot it with a 12 gauge with an 1 1/2 ounce load of BB. Or better yet, wait till a feral dog runs out of your barn and shoot it at 7 yards, so you get that adrenalin dump into the dog. now walk up and stick your whole hand thru the hole in the animal, or faux animal, and tell me some guy is going to want to dance after taking that in chest, or leg or arm or head......

Now do the same at 2 yards, which would be the distance from the end of the barrel to your bedroom door. Or 3 yards, the Distance from the top of the stairs to the bottom. He MAY live, if you live close to the trauma center, they have the helo flying over your house when you pull the trigger, and IF they have no one else on the table when it happens.. . BUT he aint going to want to dance after a COM hit with load of BB's. IF you say otherwise, you have not done the experiments.


Some one said it earlier, RANGE is everything. at bad breath distances. an ounce and half of lead is still an ounce and a half of lead.

Stumper
July 26, 2008, 09:54 AM
There are a number of well informed posts in this thread and , unfortunately, a lot of spouting off from would be sages who lack sufficient practical experience with a shotgun. I have shot a number of animals up to 600lbs live weight with a 12ga. and can speak beyond mere theory though I certainly don't know everything about shotgun lethality.
Several posters have correctly pointed out the range is a huge factor.
At 3 yards no.6 birdshot will punch a hole like a slug. The charge will penetrate heavy bone. This isn't mere theory-I've made the shots, killed the animals looked at the results. At 40 yards a single no 6 shot can knock a man down(it happened to a friend of mine-on the other hand that was probably more surprise/shock than anything else)-it hit David in the lip. However at 40 yards 6s are unlikely to inflict fatal wounds on a man-they don't penetrate much-but weird things do happen with shot and sometimes a couple will stick together and penetrate where others in the charge couldn't even break the skin-I once dusted a jackrabbit with 71/2s at a measured 77yards and killed it deader than Clinton integrity-exactly 2 shot went between the ribs and into the heart.
It is entirely possible to drop a Steenbok(small African antelope) with a charge of 3s at 20 yards-Did it-(yes, many individual pellets got inside)
Buckshot has killing power beyond what mere energy figures reflect at ranges where the charge has opened and a genuine "pattern" exists-400 lb Hartebeest will stiffen in mid jump and fold never to rise again from a charge of 00 in the neck and chest(witnessed that multiple times so it wasn't an anomolous fluke).
I haven't shot much of anything with BB shot in a shotgun but Ive killed truckloads of small game with a .177 pellet rifle-If you aren't aware-BB shot are nominally .18 caliber and weigh about the same as those wasp waisted lead pellets. If you would let someone shoot you with an 7.5-8 grain .18 lead pellet or BB launched at 1200fps at any home defense distance you are not rational. While such projectiles may stop against or deflect out from substancial bone, every single one of them has the potential to reach the vitals or penetrate the skull of a man. Multiple simultaneous hits would very likely be instantly incapacitating.
Buckshot and slugs make sense in police cruisers. Inside a home birdshot (ANY SIZE) will be devastating----but don't buy the nonsense about not needing to aim-- it will hardly have spread at all at across the room distances. The 12ga. pump that is where I can lay hands on it should things go bump in the night is loaded with 1.25 oz 4s. I know what it can do and hope I never have to make such a mess of anyone.

Scattergun Bob
July 26, 2008, 10:37 AM
I expect you are addressing me. YOU SAID "unfortunately, a lot of spouting off from would be sages who lack sufficient practical experience with a shotgun." Simply put because of your experiences, my experiences are not valid?

I too have a great body of experience with Scatterguns, some actual combat experience. I may be the only person on this forum who has actualy seen a man shot at close range with BIRDSHOT, and another shot with BUCKSHOT at 35 feet. So, in all due respect, MY experience is both BOOK learned & HARD FOUGHT.

You Said "I have shot a number of animals up to 600lbs live weight with a 12ga. and can speak beyond mere theory though I certainly don't know everything about shotgun lethality." Did you use BIRDSHOT to accomplish this?

I can not understand why it is so difficult! At 35 ft BIRDSHOT DOES NOT PENETRATE HUMANBEINGS WELL. At 35 ft BUCKSHOT DOES PENETRATE HUMANBEINGS VERY WELL. 35 ft is an average of the max clear distance of most homes. Shot performance is rocket science, it is not based on farm animals or dogs. (animals present a totally different target attitude and are not relevant to human beings.)

I will say this again for those who are slow in the uptake. At contact distance and close combat distance any shot will do, beound that WHY LIMIT YOURSELF!

FerFAL
July 26, 2008, 02:23 PM
Dont know about you guys, but for me it’s pretty simple.
The only good reason for keeping birdshot in a home defense shotgun is over penetration.

May be it's just ONE good reason, but it’s important enough for me. I don’t want to hurt my family if I happen to miss when shooting inside my house, or if a family member happens to be standing behind teh bad guy. My house interior walls are pretty thick and buck isn’t that likely to penetrate but I’m taking no chances.
Anyone that has dry walls in his house better think a million times before shooting buck inside the house.

As someone mentioned, at those ranges buck, bird or slug makes almost no difference.
I’ve seen the "box of truth" and it’s nice and all, but it offers nothing else but penetration data. Nice, but it’s just what it is.
The day the guy starts putting a guy inside that box, that’s when I’ll start using his information to make my self defense ammo decisions.
Until then, I’ll use what works on people, not water jugs. And any 12ga shot will stop an intruder at close range, no doubt about that.

What I do is the following.
The first shot in my 6+1 14 inch Mossberg 500 is 1 oz of birdshot N1 ( the biggest birdshot available) followed by 3 shells of 00 buck “General Purpose” FM military ammo.
That leaves me 2 “holes” to use the ammo in the stock shell holder, where I keep two rifled slugs, one LTL “anti riot” FM shell, and 3 more buckshot rounds.

The logic here is; If I’m using it in a hurry I’ll be using it very quick and doing so inside the house, that’s why I want birdshot for that first shot.
If people are still around after that first round, these guys are determined, the situation isn’t that simple, so the following rounds are buckshot.

If I had weak dry walls in my house, I’d probably make the first 2 or 3 rounds birdshot.

If I do have time to asses the situation, then I’ll be able to maybe use a more appropriate load, or even get the birdshot pumped out and load all of it with 00 buck instead.

Anyway, that’s how my shotgun is set up and I think it’s a good idea.

FerFAL

guntotin_fool
July 26, 2008, 03:05 PM
Scattergun bob.


I disagree with distinction. I was shot with #6 shot at almost 40 yards. I saw the shot coming on a hunt with first time hunters and "mentor" walking behind them. The boy who shot me saw the rooster take off and it j hooked back around almost right at us. The shooter developed tunnel vision and just kept following the bird and his mentor was a step slow in getting to him, I grabbed my young hunter and more or less did a barrel roll to the ground. The pellets that hit my arm penetrated nearly a foot across my back. The two that hit my neck hit my spine. Had they hit a disc instead of the spine, I would be a cripple. The two that hit my skull left hairline cracks.

I was lucky as all get out. I saw him concentrating on the bird and was quick enough to realize that an "oh! crap!" was about to happen. I walked out of the field, but I was so sore and stiff the next day that all I wanted was the demerol the doc at the local hospital gave me. I had Massive bruises across my back and arm from the bleeding. My hunter was sore from having me land on him, and I managed to crack the butt stock of the gun he was using when I landed on it. Had I taken the full pattern I am convinced one of them would have poked a hole in something vital. As it was, I took enough of the pellets that had I wanted to go on, I would have had a hard time. Those two pellets that hit my skull felt more like a hammer hitting me. The Load was a super x 20 gauge load of number 6 copper plated. I found several other holes in my gear after the fact where shot had been deflected or stopped by my pack and hunting coat (filson tin cloth).

Birdshot is not the top choice for human targets at long range. OBVIOUS. however, saying that small pellets will not penetrate is not true.

If you are talking about most people's houses, and the distances involved, a 5 to 7 yard shot is as far as you are going to get. and if they get in your bedroom, you have maybe 3 yards from muzzle to door. and thats all there is.

jmcghee
July 26, 2008, 03:09 PM
a 20 gauge with #8 shot at 20 feet will put a one inch whole in a mans head ,saw it done and he didnt even twitch jim

jmcghee
July 26, 2008, 03:17 PM
the prev mentionted shot to the head exited the hesd and went thru the windsheild.it was a 2 3/4 shell

Scattergun Bob
July 26, 2008, 04:50 PM
Sorry to hear about your incident.

I made no such claim! MY WORDS EXACTLY WERE "At 35 ft BIRDSHOT DOES NOT PENETRATE HUMAN BEINGS WELL." No offense, can you imagine that perhaps you would not be here to share your story IF you had been hit with #4 or 00 Buckshot.

nate45
July 26, 2008, 05:01 PM
just get some buckshot. Get some #1 or 00 and save the birdshot for birds.

In a 2 3/4 in shell you get 16 .30 caliber #1 buck. All pellets will penetrate 12 inches or more.

Remember after placement, penetration is of the most importance, birdshot does not have what it takes for self defense.

Nnobby45
July 26, 2008, 05:42 PM
Buckshot and slugs make sense in police cruisers. Inside a home birdshot (ANY SIZE) will be devastating----but don't buy the nonsense about not needing to aim-- it will hardly have spread at all at across the room distances....

We could probably say that birdshot is very effective until it starts to spread out and develop a pattern. Home defense distances could easily be that far.

Once it does, it loses it's penetrating power, and can be defeated with cover like living room furniture. Even a heavy leather jacket would offer some protection. At "normal" (I'll let someone else define it) HD distances it's probably worse, and devastating would be correct since it will remove flesh and bone as has already been stated.

On the other hand, a chair or couch provides no cover for 00 buck.

Limiting the effectiveness of the shotgun to close, no pattern range is a tactical decision based on safety to innocent family members. If that's not a main concern, then 00 buck would be far more versatile.

Yes, I know, there are those who favor #4 buck, or those who think #1 is best. Number 4 buck is probably a good compromise between penetration and effectiveness.

roy reali
July 26, 2008, 08:50 PM
If birdshot is only effective against feathered creatures. Then is buckshot only effective against male deer? Does any shotshell maker produce BG shot?;)

Scattergun Bob
July 26, 2008, 10:17 PM
Yes,

It is called Federal Tactical 00 Buckshot ;)

Stumper
July 26, 2008, 11:00 PM
SG Bob, Actually I wasn't referring to you ...or anyone else in particular. I simply read the thread, saw a few people mention the devastating effect of a close range charge of birdshot along with numerous "birdshot is for birds" statements. I am not negating the validity of anyone's experiences but I do think that armchair experts should listen to reports from people who have real experiences and weigh some facts before launching their own theories.
The initial question in this thread was whether a 12ga loaded with BBshot would stop a man effectively. I think that you agree that range is the most important determining factor in answering yes or no.(At 300 yards buckshot is going to suck big hairy moose lips too)
Yes I have killed 600lb animals with no 6 birdshot.-Head shots up close. I have killed 400lb animals on the run with buckshot. The 6s wouldn't have been the right choice for that running big game scenario but were adequate and available for a coup de grace on a couple big wounded critturs.

Hardly anyone is even paying attention to the original question-size BB is the transition point from birdshot to buckshot. It is very big birdshot...or small buckshot. My Grandfather used to hunt deer(successfully) with a 10 gauge loaded with BB. (His deer RIFLE was a 25-20 so you may notice that modern conventional wisdom about minimum power levels had very little to do with the needs of an old woodsman who knew how to shoot and where to hit 'em.)

I don't have any long shots in my home-the 12ga has 4s in it because I am confident they'll do the job yet limit the risk to my neighbors. If I were chosing ammo for outdoor defense or, heaven forbid, attack I would choose buckshot......but BB is big enough that it would probably be quite debilitating to BadBoys at 40 yards.

roy reali
July 26, 2008, 11:55 PM
Tactical buckshot? Would that be effective against male deer wearing dark clothing?

Now to be serious.

A person enters my home with ill-intent. I confront this intruder with one of my guns. It happens to be a 12 gauge field gun. The round in the chamber is a pheasant load. It is packed with an ounce and a half of 4 shot. I have the shotgun leveled at his chest at a distance of a dozen feet. He lunges at me. That forces me to pull the trigger. The firing pin detonates the primer. That sends those 200 or so projectiles down the muzzle at about 1200 feet per second. For all intenet and purpose they impact the BG's chest at the velocity.

Now, I am to assume that this fellow is going to take the shotgun out of my hands and proceed to kick my rear end?

FerFAL
July 27, 2008, 07:44 PM
Now, I am to assume that this fellow is going to take the shotgun out of my hands and proceed to kick my rear end?

Yes.

Because birdshot is for birds.

If you shoot a burglar with it the pellets will refuse to leave the barrel.

You can shoot him in the face at point blank, still wont work. :p

FerFAL

zxcvbob
July 27, 2008, 08:20 PM
Why are y'all acting like he asked about 7 1/2 skeet loads? BB shot is pretty big (yes I know it's smaller than 00.) I think that's what they use to hunt Canadian geese.

BB is probably a good compromise. It'll make a devastating wound, the question is will it go deep enough. Probably, but I'd feel better using #1 buckshot to be a little more sure. And with larger shot, you won't have to use a magnum load -- might give you a better chance of getting a 2nd shot on target.

WIN71
July 27, 2008, 08:25 PM
This debate could go on forever. When you talk about bird shot that is a general term usually referring to anything that isn't buck shot, as far as shot is concerned. The op is asking about BB shot specifically. That is generally considered the largest shot size of all bird shot. There are about 50 per oz. At close range, 10-25 feet within a dwelling, the shot pattern will be very small. The pattern itself will not be flat but instead have some depth to it. The shot in front will slow and stop in the target while some of the shot behind is still moving. I'm not saying I don't prefer Buckshot but a load of BB's in the torso is going to slow the fight down considerably. And if it looks like it isn't over the next two shots will pretty much put an end to it. And if you should happen to shoot a little high and your adversary gets a face full of BB's it will stop. If it doesn't you'll be having a shoot out with Stevie Wonder.

grey sky
July 28, 2008, 03:31 AM
Has anyone heard of double barrel, pump or semi auto I understand shotguns can be repeaters having the advantage of quick follow up shots. What century am I in?:D
Sorry just being a wise guy. But it stil remains true that bird or buck muliple 7/8ths oz hits are going to be a conversation stoper.

rn22723
August 2, 2008, 03:08 AM
In a word NO, you want effective stopping potential then get #4 buck or OO buck get the reduced recoil stuff

Bill DeShivs
August 2, 2008, 03:37 AM
Sometimes I wonder why I even post here!:rolleyes:

rscalzo
August 2, 2008, 05:36 PM
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

Two of our fatal shooting involved just that. Of course both were within a few feet of the intended target.

T191032
August 12, 2008, 09:47 PM
As mentioned, found in GUNS Magazine

Duck Guns for Defense (2005)

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...1/ai_n11840312

Shotguns - Still A Great Option (2008)

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...4/ai_n25381200

Affordable Home Defense (2008)

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...4/ai_n25469318

mod29
August 17, 2008, 08:46 PM
All this talk about whimpy bird-shot..lol.

The OP asked.."Will a 12 Gauge Loaded with BB Shot Stop a Man Effectively??..."

Depends on the range of the encounter, of course. Within a normal sized house, I have no doubt it would stop them very effectively.

Also, there is a HUGE difference between low-base #8 for doves and quail ( light weight bird shot), and high-base BB shot.

By the way...my fav load for my SD shotguns is #1 buckshot, Winchester Super-X non-magnum 2 3/4. That has 16 pellets, and packs one hell of a punch.

Stevie-Ray
August 18, 2008, 01:15 PM
I think the answer to using magnum BB loads is "range" or better yet "close range"

I would spend the money and buy some 00 buck but if for some reason all I had was magnum BB loads I would want to be at a range of 20 feet or less.Perfect. That's why I shoot my HD and carry pistols at 7 yards only. It's the longest in-home distance in this area on average, and certainly in my home. I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I don't even own a shotgun other than a single-shot 12 ga 28 dollar special that has never been fired in the 30 or so years I've owned it. But hypothetically, armed with a shotgun, loaded with birdshot, in my home, I certainly wouldn't put it down and go looking for my .45 if faced with a home invader.

But I doubt that I'll ever use a shotgun for HD. I'm just not good enough with them.

Superhouse 15
August 18, 2008, 08:10 PM
Well said Mod29. The difference between Wal Mart cheap #8 shot and some big T shot is huge. Dont forget T shot is .20 cal and weighs like 14gr. #8 is like .09cal and about 1.1gr.

Lets figure the energy of one pellet and estimate 1100FPS:

T shot: about 38 FPE
8 shot: less than 3 FPE

Cyklopz
August 18, 2008, 09:20 PM
Living in KY we have cool/cold weather around 6-8 months of the year. couple this with some young punks wearing multiple layers of clothes almost all year and some even using phone books as "armour" and 12ga 00 was my choice. It will get someone's attention no matter what time of year it is.

I thought about a 20ga or 7 1/2 shot for my wife but I think she can learn to handle the 12ga (which she has). Its not a lot of fun to just shoot a lot at a range but that's not the point of that weapon. :)

Cy

LanceOregon
August 19, 2008, 08:03 AM
Has anyone heard of double barrel, pump or semi auto I understand shotguns can be repeaters having the advantage of quick follow up shots. What century am I in?

Actually, I have a FN Self Loading Police ( SLP ) Mark I semiautomatic shotgun. It's capacity is 8 + 1 shells.

So yes, I would probably fire more than one shell in a self-defense scenario.

Here is a photo of "Bubba" relaxing in my bedroom, waiting for a home invader to come visit:

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/SHOT1.jpg

fjk1911
August 19, 2008, 08:20 PM
00 or larger up here. We got some big fat street thugs peddling dat crack. Them little BB's might get stopped in the adipose layer and never get to the vitals. Throwing out a dozen or so .33 cal +/- shot gives me a warm fuzzy with my 5+1 Mossy. having wifey backing me up with the same rig with a light/laser on it makes me warmer and fuzzier. Leave birdshot to pheasants and doves.

TEX
September 16, 2008, 04:58 AM
Keep in mind a few things; plated lead shot usually penetrates a little better than bare lead shot and tungsten shot penetrates more than plated lead. When you think of BB size shot, think about a BB gun or pellet rifle (.17-.18 caliber). These BB size pellets probably won’t be moving faster than 1300 fps. I have shot crows with a .17 caliber pellets moving out at 1200 fps and it seldom went completely through the bird. BB shot in ballistic gel often penetrates less than 6” and the FBI feels 12” is needed to be quickly effective on a threat target. BB shells hold around 70 pellets, but that doesn’t mean much if they won’t penetrate to vitals. BB shot up close might certainly kill a Goblin, but it is questionable as to if it would stop them quickly. If you are worried about over penetration in a home environment, then perhaps a compromise is in order. I would not want to go lower than #4 Buckshot using tungsten pellets. This would give you about 20 pellets of 24 caliber moving out at 1200-1300 fps. If you found #4 Buckshot in tungsten and in 3” shells , with their added velocity, it would probably be pretty effective at ranges of 10 yards and under. Lead #4 Buckshot usually penetrates 9”-11” of ballistic gel. I would expect tungsten and/or 3” loads to reach the FBI’s so called magical 12”. # 1 Buck may be a decent compromise as it launches 11-12 pellets of 30 caliber and penetrates 12”-14”.

All that being said, BB shot to the head or fast repeat shots to the body at 5 yards or less could probably solve your problem, but IMHO, you need something with a little more punch. #1 Buck should give you 10-12 pellets and penetrate 12”-14”, and an “F” load would give you about 40 pellets of 22 caliber with a gel penetration of 8”-10”.

GalilARM
September 16, 2008, 07:51 PM
So basically it goes like this......

Birdshot CAN kill people. I've seen it happen. Other people on this forum have seen it happen too, apparently. BUT, it doesnt ALWAYS kill people. Other people on this forum have seen and can attest to that as well. So basically, you might kill them, you might not.

Buckshot, as we all know, CAN kill people. The chances of this are higher than will birdshot, as most people here would probably agree with. However, even buckshot doesnt ALWAYS kill people.

BOTH rounds can go through walls under the right conditions. As can pistol rounds. And rifle rounds.

So, you can choose to go with birdshot, which has been known to have mixed results in the killing department. Or you can go with buckshot, which has notably better results. Your choice, but I think it would be foolish not to acknowledge that buckshot is by far the better choice to reliably, consistently, and efficiently dispatch bad guys with.

SGT-MILLER
September 16, 2008, 08:25 PM
The answer lies in the range.

At a range of 10 feet or less...yes.

30 feet away (i.e. other end of a long hallway)..........not so much.

I'd just go with 00 buck or slugs.

Seeker
September 16, 2008, 09:25 PM
as no kinda expert and never having been shot or shot someone w/ a shotgun (or anything else), justa a curious guy w/ a shotgun an ten acres...

seems to me that at home defense range (18 ft is a big room and a third the length of my unibomber style hut) that whatever size shot you use most if it will still be in or about the shot cup. Also seems to me Brandon Lee was killed by the wad from a 12 gauge - no shot at all. Also the univeristy student body pres that was killed a few months ago, when the autopsy came in the shot cup was found in her skull. When the Vice Pres cheney'd his hunting buddy it wasn't fatal by any means - range is a big factor w/ shotties.

As for me my coach gun has a slug on the right and 00 buck on the other (the Uncle Mikes butt sleeve has a mix of slugs and 00 buck), I think this will stop late night knocking and scratching at my door - nevermore

ringworm
September 17, 2008, 07:15 AM
How many of you have ever witnessed first hand what a shotgun w/ #7's does to a human at room distance?


right!

Well I have and im here to tell you it works. at 8-10 feet the damn cup was inside the guy. the cluster of shot was inside a softball size pattern. he was lucky that he got hit low in the hip. a chest shot would have killed him deader than disco.

Scattergun Bob
September 17, 2008, 11:09 AM
I have seen SEVERAL. I question your observations at 10 feet the pattern should be about 2" not the size of a softball, can you explain that?

No one who "actually knows" balistics questions the fact that most shot sizes are adequate at 10 ft, lets try and stay with the original posting, REMEMBER it was out of doors, and I have no real idea of distance.

I will say again, why in the world would you choose to limit yourself by purposefully using bird shot against a large heavy target!

Good Luck & Be Safe

ISP2605
September 17, 2008, 11:49 AM
The first shooting I went to as a Troop involved a guy getting hit in the xyphoid (that's the lower chest, bottom of the rib cage) at 15 ft with a load of #6 low brass 20 ga. Dropped him where he stood. The hole was about the size of a golf ball with some ragged edges. We found shot against his spine.
I've also seen 00B where the pattern was so blown out due to the distance involved, about 40 yds, that the guy on the receiving end only sustained superficial wounds on his legs and arms, none in the torso.

nemoaz
September 18, 2008, 03:00 PM
I've personally seen two head wounds from point blank range from a 12g with small birdshot, not sure of the size. One was self-inflicted. Both survived, although one was fairly mangled (most of the right jaw and left ear area blown off). Neither had any of the birdshot actually penetrate the skull. Either could have continued the fight had they been a meth or crackhead intent on hurting someone else.

My agency also sends us incident reports. I've seen many, many photos of similar birdshot failures at short range. I wouldn't trust it, but if I did have to carry birdshot, the larger the better. Didn't one of the gellatin sites suggest that #2 birdshot almost made the magical 12" penetration at short range?

ISP2605
September 18, 2008, 03:27 PM
I've personally seen two head wounds from point blank range from a 12g with small birdshot, not sure of the size. One was self-inflicted. Both survived,
We have a guy in prison now who shot himself in the head with a .270 and survived after he had killed his grandfather with the .270. Does that make the .270 only 50% effective? Or does it matter what the path the bullet takes? I think we all know the answer to that question.

rc
December 24, 2008, 12:17 AM
A friend of mine who is an emergency room doctor once examined a man DOA. He pulled the plastic shotgun wad out of the victims chest. The internals were shreaded by birdshot. I think 00 buck is great for police who might have to penetrate a car door or a baricaded combat situation when shots are measured in yards and not feet. However, most states require your life to be in imminent danger before you pull the trigger and the attacker must therefore be coming at you closing the distance. In a typical house straight shots are typically less than 50 feet. At 3 feet a #8 load from a 20 guage will blast completely through a 2X4. In my opinion, BB shot is pretty big and penetrates much more than #6 or 8 shot. I would not think there would be anything wrong with loading a couple of BB lead shells followed by some form of buckshot for home defense given that you understand effective range is limited to about 10-15 feet and after the first shot an attacker might try to take cover. I would not use steel as it would be more likely to bounce back. I would never shoot a slug in a house or urban area because the liability would be too great to strike an innocent person, but for rural defense in a bear infested area slugs would be great. I think people often take a stubborn position, but there is no perfect ammo or gun for every situation. Who would want to pump out 00 Buck indiscriminantly if a childs bedroom is just down the hall or behind a wall. Having a variety of shells available is better than just one.

It's pretty amazing what a load of #6 will do to a lowly pheasant even out to 20 or 30 yards from a full or modified choke. My friend and I have blown wings off birds, and his son just about blew one in half at close range because he didn't wait for the bird to fly far enough for the pattern to open up. Go ahead and make fun of my anecdotal experiences, but any shotgun load is superior to any handgun load at close range against unarmored targets. To mock someone for wanting to use BB shot rather than buck is rediculous. The biggest problem with BB shot is that it's hard to find these days with waterfowl limited to shooting non toxic at geese. Buckshot is relatively common.

Thankfully, use of guns for self defense is not yet a daily experience for most people. Being prepared is great, but not paranoid. rc

onthejon55
December 24, 2008, 01:48 AM
If you hit them in the neck and face im gonna say its instantly fatal

troy_mclure
December 24, 2008, 10:39 PM
i see nobody has mentioned loads like heavy shot, they are heavier than lead and commonly found in loads like BB.
this will give you more penetration than standard lead, and still have lots of pellets to shred some goblin.

Nnobby45
December 24, 2008, 10:50 PM
You won't find birdshot in my HD shotgun, but, then again, Clint Smith has no problem using it "in the hallway".

I'm not worried about the hallway--that's were I set up the Claymores.:D

obxned
December 25, 2008, 12:24 AM
When law enforcement switchs , then I will. In the mean time, I will stick with OO.

greywolf444
January 1, 2009, 09:31 PM
many don't seem to realize just what BB's are. they are very effective on coyotes and dogs out to 35-40 yds. they are not really in the realm of birdshot. I do keep my hd shotgun loaded with these. I don;t need or want the extreme penetration of 00 buck. the larger buckshots are devastating out to much greater distances than is required for home defense. BB's will do the home defense role perfectly. to those who think that 00 is needed, just how far are you shooting around the house?

Para Bellum
January 3, 2009, 05:28 AM
only placement does. A .22lr in the right place drops any living being instantly. A .50 BMG in the arm drops nothing and nobody.

And: Buckshot, 00 or 000 for defense. Even with best placement birdshot lacks the penetration.

AAnd: A .223 ouperforms a 12ga in any situation IMHO.

liquidspaceman
February 5, 2009, 04:11 AM
I love the arguments about this. They go on and on with nobody really backing down from their position.

Guys that advocate buckshot in the home are a little delusional to me. They cite using rounds that "COPS USE" because hey law enforcement knows everything right? Law enforcement is going to be involved in a tactical gunfight - possibly shooting behind car doors, trying to penetrate a car door or a wall. You buckshot addicts are NOT COPS.

If you get in a shootout in your house, the guy isn't going to be shooting at you from behind a large steel trashcan with his AK47. Some of you that are grown men seriously need to grow up.

A birdshot load is lethal at any range within the home. You will stop the attacker? Kill him? I don't know, but I am positive you will stop him if you hit him and stop him cold. There are some seriously disturbed people who want to KILL their attacker and that's some psychopathic stuff right there. So many guys that dream of the day they get to kill somebody in their home. Seriously?

You have a good chance the birdshot, even a #4 birdshot will kill or seriously maim, injure anybody you hit in the chest, face or even just blow off their hand. He's not going to dive behind a piece of sheet metal and you're not going to be involved in a shootout at anything over 10 yards.

There are too many delusional people who want to be Rambo inside their home and at some point will end up killing or hurting one of their own family members because they want to blow an intruders head off with 000 magnum buckshot with exploding tips. These same guys would throw a freaking frag granade if they could. They think they're Dirty Harry or John Rambo until the day they shoot an intruder and the buck goes through to the next house over and kills little Timmy the next door neighbor.

You give me a real life example of somebody having a 40 yard shootout inside of their home, with people jumping behind car doors and sheet metal and then you'll sway my opinion on this. Inside your home, even if you live in a giant log cabin, you shoot a guy with birdshot within 10 yards, that guy is going to be serverely injured.

"What about a guy on drugs?" Use whatever excuses you need to try and sway attention away from the fact that you just want to kill somebody and be John Rambo in the process. You're going to be the big hero and blow away the bad guy right? Because cops use buckshot right? Newsflash, you're not a freaking cop.

The Military uses AR-15's and grenades, why don't you grab some grenades too while you're at it... hey, they're 100% effective at home defense range. :barf:

Nnobby45
February 5, 2009, 04:34 AM
A birdshot load is lethal at any range within the home.

Sorry, but I have small house, and from my bedroom door I can see down the hallway, and into the living room where I can observe my gunsafe. At that distance, birdshot from my cyl. bore 870 would be 18" or so, and would have no ability to penetrate much of anything.

Birdshot is lethal until it starts to spread out and actually develop a pattern, and for a short distance thereafter.

It's true that I'm not interested in shooting thru cars, and all kinds of barriers, but having to, by necessity, shoot through a couch or easy chair isn't out of the question by any means. Not a job for birdshot.

The point: A shotgun's usefulness is limited no what you load it with. It wouldn't be my practice to put more restrictions on it's usefullness.

Tarwater
February 5, 2009, 06:29 AM
No, no, no. I x-ray people who've been shot with birdshot all the time. It rarely even penetrates past the level of the sternum. It creates a nasty, superficial wound that would only stop someone psychologically.

skydiver3346
February 5, 2009, 07:00 AM
Best of both worlds with lead buckshot and more of them than standard 00 buck. No. 1 buckshot will penetrate deep and provide better covereage area.

Webleymkv
February 5, 2009, 12:33 PM
I think that there are a couple of things that are forgotten when discussing birdshot and particularly BB or coarser birdshot for home defense. One is that many of the loadings available with BB Shot are steel rather than lead and thusly will not deform as easily upon impacting the target and the other is that the pattern does not disperse immediately. When my 10ga used to serve HD duty, I loaded it with BB, that's 106 pellets. I did some informal testing of my own with this shotgun and load and found that at a distance of about 7 yards, it would blow a single large hole through both sides of a plastic mannequin. This leads me to believe that at typical self-defense ranges, the pattern would disperse little if at all and be quite effective.

liquidspaceman
February 5, 2009, 01:08 PM
All you guys who want to play "Tackleberry" go for it and blow through the next wall into little Timmys room. LOL @ birdshot only causing superficial wounds. At anything within 10 yards (average length of any house), it's going to go right through the skull. Just google "birdshot wounds" with the safe search off if you don't believe me.

00 Buckshot in a home is total overkill. It's going to go through your couch, through your target, through the next wall and outside the freaking house. As I said, why don't you just invest in a frag granade and blow the hell out of your house while you're at it.

Some people seriously don't understand how shot spreads and keep talking about "longer distances." You tell me when you're going to be defending yourself at 30 or 40 yards. What are you going to do? Shoot some guy in the back while he's running off your property? That's not self defense, that's murder gentlemen. Justify it however you want, but it's murder. And that's what's disturbing, many of you can't wait for the opportunity to blow away some guys back with 00 buck while he's running away from your home just so you can make up whatever story you want and "dead men tell no tales."

It's borderline psychopathic. You shouldn't be buying 00 buckshot, you should be seeing a psychotherapist to find out why you have this innate urge to kill somebody in your own home. Can you at least downgrade to 4 buck so you don't kill your own kids in the process or the neighbor down the way?

"Oh the guy might be hopped up on PCP." Let me tell you something gramps, PCP is not a widely used drug anymore. Maybe in the 70's everyone was shermed out, these days, kids are on Meth, Ecstacy and Vicodins. Unless you live in Detroit or some Favela in Brazil, there's no real reason for buckshot other than trying to impress others with your ability to blow a hole in everything you aim at. Why don't you just plant claymore mines around your property while you're at it?

Those that think birdshot doesn't have penetration, go ahead and put on a thick winter coat, stand at 40 yards and let me tap you once with it in the chest. Better yet, let me tap you once at 15 yards which is average home self defense range. I'll let you wear as many layers as you want. It's going to be just like a BB gun right? Right... sure guy.

rantingredneck
February 5, 2009, 02:12 PM
And that's what's disturbing, many of you can't wait for the opportunity to blow away some guys back with 00 buck while he's running away from your home just so you can make up whatever story you want and "dead men tell no tales."



What's disturbing are the assumptions you keep making about the rest of us.

Also the flaws in your own logic. You argue that birdshot has adequate penetration but then rail against buckshot in that it will kill "little Timmy" in the next room.

If you are shooting toward the next room with "little Timmy" in it with birdshot what do you think will then happen?

I've said it before in these threads and I'll say it again, the necessity to know what lies beyond your target cannot be overcome by a change in ammo.

I'll stick with 00 buck for reliable, adequate penetration to stop the threat to me and mine.

flippycat
February 5, 2009, 02:31 PM
liquid?spaceman? are you being serious? I just read all 5 pages twice, no where did I read anything that you mentioned about other contributors to the thread.

Without knowing what a bg will do or where he will hide behind or stand to fire at you makes it hard to really hard to gauge what is going to work as a universal shell which is why hd's normally have staggered loads.

I personally find shooting light 6+ birdshot in any enclosed area 200-400sf or less just as dangerous to the shooter due to ricochets off walls from ones that do not penetrate. nothing like defending your home with a pellet to the eye at 3 am right? Not saying that other shots would not given the right circumstance, but they would be far less likely.

my hd is staggered 1 00 buck, 2 slugs, 2 00 buck, 1 slug.

If you truly are worried about what you are going to do to the bg or couch, load up on beanbag rounds then ...though be careful as even those are known to be lethal at 5 yrds.

Bartholomew Roberts
February 5, 2009, 03:10 PM
A birdshot load is lethal at any range within the home.

A 94-year-old man who accidentally shot himself in the abdomen while cleaning his shotgun is expected to make a full recovery, despite waiting until the next morning to ask for help. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=181618&highlight=birdshot&page=2)

Radiographic image of birdshot injury to the shoulder (http://radiographics.rsnajnls.org/cgi/content/full/19/5/1358/F12A)

Man shot in head with birdshot from stairway distance flees home and escapes (http://www.ndcourts.com/court/opinions/900253.htm)

14yr old girl shot in the face with birdshot from across porch survives by running away (http://www.martinsvillebulletin.com/Archive/2001/Aug%20'01/a080101.htm)

Teenager survives 12ga birdshot to hip from less than a car length - gets into car and drives off (http://www.state.hi.us/jud/ica23223.htm)

Shotgun duel at less than 2 meters - one loaded with 00 Buckshot, one loaded with #6 birdshot - guess who wins? (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=315025&highlight=birdshot)

hogdogs
February 5, 2009, 03:15 PM
After reading Bart's links I reckon there will be a run 00 sales due to many TFL members
Brent

rantingredneck
February 5, 2009, 03:28 PM
run 00 sales

Thank goodness my safe is well stocked already.......:D.

AZAK
February 5, 2009, 04:14 PM
And that's what's disturbing, many of you can't wait for the opportunity to blow away some guys back with 00 buck while he's running away from your home just so you can make up whatever story you want and "dead men tell no tales."

It's borderline psychopathic. You shouldn't be buying 00 buckshot, you should be seeing a psychotherapist to find out why you have this innate urge to kill somebody in your own home.

I, for one, would like to see your supporting evidence of your claims.

hogdogs
February 5, 2009, 04:37 PM
*Required disclaimer... In no way am I saying i am for the following behavior!!!
If I was cold blooded killer wanting to abuse the castle doctrine ruling I would simply invite a convicted felon to supper and blow his guts out instead...
If i were just a cold blooded killer I would invite someone with few relatives, friends or acquaintance to go on a hog dog hunt, cut their throat and feed them to the hogs... or if I was a totally ruthless killer I could take them shark fishing and run them thru an institutional size meat grinder and chum up some sharks!

I hope you understand I take a high level of offense at being looked at as a killer wannabe for intending to defend my home with the prudent application of smokeless powder propelled lead!:mad:
I really have read few threads on ANY board of any genre that turned my stomach :barf: And that's what's disturbing, many of you can't wait for the opportunity to blow away some guys back with 00 buck while he's running away from your home just so you can make up whatever story you want and "dead men tell no tales."

It's borderline psychopathic. You shouldn't be buying 00 buckshot, you should be seeing a psychotherapist to find out why you have this innate urge to kill somebody in your own home. :barf: but this one statement really tops all! But when it comes to me and mine I claim no passive posture... It is all about win at all costs! My wife and kids are happy knowing that daddy will not haggle with their safety and that... BUD... is what I am living for!
Brent

spacemanspiff
February 5, 2009, 04:41 PM
Yeah birdshot will make someone dead, but only a little bit dead. If you want to be really sure you should use 00 or maybe 000 to make them extra super duper thilly willy dead.

Buzzard Bait
February 5, 2009, 04:48 PM
:):):)Down here in Texas they use 28 guages loaded with 3/4 oz of 7 1/2 shot for attorneys doesn't kill em but does put them down for the count no one realy cares their as plentiful as rabbits.


Buzzard Bait

Creature
February 5, 2009, 05:01 PM
00 Buckshot in a home is total overkill. It's going to go through your couch, through your target, through the next wall and outside the freaking house. As I said, why don't you just invest in a frag granade and blow the hell out of your house while you're at it.

You would be surprised at what penetrates far more than 00 Buck...http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Lee Lapin
February 5, 2009, 10:42 PM
Thank you, Dr. Liquidspaceman. Shall I pay at the door, or will you bill me later? Is psychiatric help still 5 cents? :D

Every time the birdshot vs buckshot fray comes up, I post this link: http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_11_041200/herdson/herdson.html .

Even buckshot is not enough sometimes, even SLUGS are not enough for a stop sometimes. I'm not going to use birdshot for defense, given any choice in the matter.

YMMV of course.

lpl

liquidspaceman
February 6, 2009, 01:08 AM
I always love the anecdotal links to other message boards whose brothers, nephews, 2nd cousin is a Law Enforcement Officer and how the buckshot won against the birdshot. Jeez people are gullible when it comes to fish stories.

You can tell your fishy stories all you want about the mean old perp who got laid out with buckshot and how the birdshot didn't do a thing.

Here's a photo of what .410 birdshot will do to a skull. Warning, images are graphic. From the FBI website, not some story about a cousins, brother in laws, stepson who is a LEO and saw a guy get shot point blank in the head with birdshot and went out drinking the next day.

You guys enjoy your delusions while you check out the gruesome photo.

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/april2004/images/research2_10.jpg

MAN WOUNDED BY BIRDSHOT:

http://pro.corbis.com/images/AAKA002646.jpg?size=67&uid=%7B0B11AFB5-C16D-4C23-B539-5CCF5B56BAB9%7D

JohnKSa
February 6, 2009, 04:06 AM
Here's a photo of what .410 birdshot will do to a skull.
...
MAN WOUNDED BY BIRDSHOT:Please provide links to the original captioning identifying these pictures.

Bartholomew Roberts
February 6, 2009, 09:21 AM
I always love the anecdotal links to other message boards whose brothers, nephews, 2nd cousin is a Law Enforcement Officer and how the buckshot won against the birdshot. Jeez people are gullible when it comes to fish stories.

The links to message boards were when the original link to the article was no longer available; of course only two of those links were to a message board and both contained the text and source of the original article for anyone who wishes to investigate further.

Is your case is so weak that you felt a need to misstate what was contained in my link? For that matter, even if your case is so weak that you feel a need to misstate the content of those links, does it make much sense to do it when anybody here can click on the links and see for themselves?

Here's a photo of what .410 birdshot will do to a skull.

I see a photo of a dead guy. I don't see any information identifying that as birdshot or a .410.

http://pro.corbis.com/images/AAKA002...CCF5B56BAB9%7D

Again, I see a photo of a wounded man. No identification as to how the man was wounded or with what. In any case, he looks to be capable of pulling the trigger on a firearm if he had one, so I'm not sure how it supports your case.

Of course, there is lots of blood there; but that isn't unusual since birdshot often makes bloody, horrific looking wounds that aren't effective at stopping a threat. Here is a graphic example of a similarly dramatic looking wound caused by a Glaser/Magsafe type pistol round (http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/102000/JohannesburgTraumaUnit.htm) - except this also shows the x-rays demonstrating how deeply the light shot penetrated (despite being purposely compressed into a solid core in this case).

liquidspaceman
February 6, 2009, 01:51 PM
Yes Bartholemew because a bloodied up guy is really a threat after a birdshot hit from 20 feet away. You keep talking about "not effective at stopping." Oh it's effective. What you really want to say is birdshot doesn't kill.

Why can't you guys just admit that you want to see the perp dead? It's not a bad thing to be a murderer. I mean, we're all animals after all.

I can guarantee you that my 6 shot shotgun loaded with birdshot would be all I need to effectively STOP an attack. I am happy with that and don't care if I killed or not.

You on the other hand, want to make sure the perp is dead and that's what it boils down to. One shot, one kill is effectively saying you want to murder somebody. Otherwise you would be happy with 6 rounds of birdshot. I can guarantee you that the first time he gets hit and the second time racking, he's not going to go anywhere and will do exactly what you ask, but you're only interested in getting to "vital organs."

Nothing but a forum full of borderline psychopaths. It's no wonder that America considers NRA members and gun owners as "GUN NUTS" because you guys are obsessed with the kill and care about nothing else but opening up the guys chest with a 6 inch gaping hole.

Safety of your family my ass. You just want to kill somebody.

Tarwater
February 6, 2009, 02:02 PM
Anecdotal stories have nothing to do with it. I'm an student xray tech and I have patients with birdshot wounds come through about 1-2 times a month, some of them self-inflicted suicide attempts. It looks gross because of all the little pellets but usually it's only a surface wound. They walk into the ER most of the time and they walk out when we're done. Am I saying you can't get lucky and stop someone with birdshot? Absolutely not, it's still dangerous stuff to get shot with. But most of the time it doesn't have enough penetration to do any real damage.

liquidspaceman
February 6, 2009, 02:06 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=332457

Tarwater, here's another ER guy who is saying the opposite of what you are saying. If your goal is to stop the attack, then birdshot is fine. If your goal is to kill, then go ahead and load with buckshot. It seems like you guys just want to kill, not stop.

Here is what he has to say:

I swear this is the last time I post on one of these birdshot vs buckshot threads, that horse is just about pulp by now. I don't get my info from any website or gun mag, I guess I'm just not that savy. I get my evidence from over 15 years working in Level 1 ERs. Anyone who says that birdshot used at home defense ranges is anything less than lethal is smoking crack.

Now granted, I've never seen what birdshot does to ballistics gel or wet phone books, only human tissue, so maybe my evidence won't hold up on the internet. Not everyone I've seen hit with birdshot at close range has come in flatlined, but none has pressed on an attack. I've also seen more than a couple of people bring themselves in or picked up off site who were hit with one or 2 buckshot, probably by someone who just pointed and pulled.

Now me, I like 000 buck, but the wife can't tolerate the recoil. She's perfectly fine with a good load of #4 bird. The distance from her side of the bed to the bedroom door is 13 feet. We've mapped these things out, we have a plan. And a plan trumps internet gibberish anyday of the week.
Or maybe I just woke up in a bad mood.

cjw3cma
February 6, 2009, 02:07 PM
Why bother with BB's? If you are not prepared to kill the intruder, you shouldn't be using a shotgun to begin with - a taser will do.

My 870 Tactical is loaded with Centurion Multi-defense buckshot shells - a true "manstopper" - loaded with a single .650 size pellet along with six (6) #1 buckshot pellets, for a solid hit. Muzzle Velocity: 1,300.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s259/cjw3cma/125051i_ts.jpg

liquidspaceman
February 6, 2009, 02:12 PM
Look, I have no problem with you guys using buckshot. Just admit that your goal is to KILL the intruder, not stop the attack. You admit that and I'm okay with your use of buckshot. Just admit you want to murder the guy and the argument is over.

I get tired of buckshot advocates talking about "lack of penetration" to vital organs and such. What you're really saying is that you want to blow the ever-living crap out of anybody in front of you. I mean, what other reason is there to load magnum sized buckshot loads?

You want to kill the guy in front of you. There is no other reason. Just remember this fellas. When you do eventually kill that guy in front of you, it's not going to be that glorious moment your'e imagining in your head. You're not going to have one foot on the attacker while your wife grabs your elbow.

No. Killing somebody is going to be a traumatic experience. And when you see some 15 year old kid laying dead in your living room with no weapon...believe me, you're not going to be on your high horse. Especially if the neighbor kid was some kid you knew your whole life and was just a petty thief looking to score some DVDs from you. You're going to know what it feels like to kill a man - any man and you're going to have flashbacks about it for the rest of your life.

You little armchair Rambos have no idea what you're setting yourself up for. All the stories you read on the internet of some little girl in Montana shooting 2 perps in her home...they are bullcrap and don't take into acct the insanity you bring upon your person when your intention is to kill.

liquidspaceman
February 6, 2009, 02:14 PM
Good luck CJW, I can't wait until you get to fulfill your Rambo fantasy of killing an intruder. I hope your family is okay that their papa is a homicidal sociopath deep down inside.

Tarwater
February 6, 2009, 02:14 PM
Don't mean to disrespect you dude, but maybe you should try some of that rubber buckshot stuff; it would probably suit your needs pretty well.

Bill DeShivs
February 6, 2009, 02:18 PM
Though his attitude leaves a little something to be desired, Liquidspaceman is basically correct about birdshot. I assume most people have not done much shotgun shooting. Sounds like you guys think birdshot is like shooting paintballs. IT'S DEADLY. Believe it. It's probably not deadly at 25 yards, but at under 5 yards birdshot will blow one big hole in whatever it hits. Buckshot penetrates better, and has longer range.

liquidspaceman
February 6, 2009, 02:19 PM
Yeah and maybe you should switch from magnum loads to M67 Fragmentation Grenades Tarwater. Why leave the perp any chance of walking out alive? What if there's more than one perp? Then you can really blow the **** out of them Rambo.

Tarwater
February 6, 2009, 02:22 PM
I don't actually own a shotgun, I keep a humble 9mm for my Rambo fantasies. Thanks for the advice though, I think I'll have a look at those frag grenades next time I'm at the sporting goods store.

liquidspaceman
February 6, 2009, 02:23 PM
Sorry for my attitude Bill, it just bothers me that there are people that actually have these fantasies of killing their intruders. A gun was created for self-defense and to stop these attacks. They weren't created so that people could blow the ever living crap out of things.

But that's the attitude people have. If somebody breaks into their home, they're not walking away alive. It's really disturbing. These guys with buckshots in their apartments with me living right next door. They're going to punch threw the wall and hit my 4 year old daughter with their Rambo tactics.

I don't think half these guys realize they are sociopaths to begin with. They talk about penetration to vital organs and all it reminds me of is serial killers who talk about their favorite way to kill their victims. This is a forum of guys who have seen Death Wish and Dirty Harry one too many times.

Glenn E. Meyer
February 6, 2009, 02:33 PM
It's done. No more insulting folks. :mad: