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REELZARUBA
July 2, 2008, 09:32 PM
hey tx shooters sign the open carry petition we have things going our way for now, you can never have to many pro gun laws

BanditSRT8
July 3, 2008, 04:01 AM
We have open carry in MN, and NO ONE does it.

I would never, ever consider it. You're just inviting trouble, and not leaving anything for the element of surprise in case you need it.

Thanks, but no thanks on open carry...

jlh26oo
July 3, 2008, 05:08 AM
Understand we're going to get destroyed here B.S.R.T., but I personally don't think open carry is a great idea either. Sorry R.Z. but I can't sign that one.

I do agree with you in general that "you cannot have too many pro gun laws", but I think if we got hypothetical enough and kept a simple "pro" and "anti" categorization, I might find a "pro" law you might not agree with too!

blume357
July 3, 2008, 05:36 AM
to open carry or not. When I visited VA a while back I did both... the screwy part about that state's law is you have to open carry in a bar or place that serves drinks...

Even if my state (S.C.) had open carry I would conceal most of the time...but it would be good to have the choice at times.

SilentHitz
July 3, 2008, 05:54 AM
MS has a real goofy law, open carry is legal, but you have to have a CCW to legally open carry... like I said, goofy.

I like the option of open carry, but I personally wouldn't practice it. I like the element of surprise, and don't want every Tom dick and Harry knowing I'm armed. JMO ;)

ImDisaster
July 3, 2008, 06:06 AM
Open carry is generally a bad idea because, 1. An visible gun is a gun that could be grabbed. 2. Many people are uncomfortable with guns and you will constantly be shunned and questioned. You will have lots of encounters with LEO's.

There are places for open carry....walking in the woods for example....working as security. But in general, keep it concealed.

The Meatman
July 3, 2008, 08:23 AM
+1 for too many hassles from LEO.

REELZARUBA
July 3, 2008, 08:48 AM
dont really want to open carry either, but would be nice not worry about losing chl because the wind blew my shirt open or my gun printed through my shirt. how about a few laws for the gun owner, why give the folks any more reason to hassle a gun owner, just cause my cars will go 140mph does not mean I drive that away. Let the people be the judgement of that one

woad_yurt
July 3, 2008, 09:36 AM
If I simply had to use my carry piece, I'd rather use it with the element of surprise on my side. Exposing one's situation to the scrutiny of a possible opponent is a big tactical mistake. Open carry gives 'em a chance to think.

floydster
July 3, 2008, 12:37 PM
I live in Minn also and never open carry, always concealed, no questions--
no problems, and that's the way it should be, thanks.
Floydster:)

Recon7
July 3, 2008, 12:41 PM
This is a petition about a personal freedom, not a poll about how you prefer to carry.

I OC occasionaly because I don't have my ccw yet. Wifey now wants me to get my ccw with the election approaching :) I have never had any problems while OC, A funny look occasionaly, but no big deal. I understand the tactical importance of concealing your weapon, but the law should not force you to.

REELZARUBA, do you want signatures from out of state? I'm not going to lie and say I am a TX resident, but if the petition is just to show support I'll sign. If so where do I sign?

djmyers
July 3, 2008, 01:39 PM
I just began OC'ing a few weeks ago as it is legal in Washington State. It simply gives me an option on how I carry in the warmer months. When the cooler/colder months arrive I will begin to carry CC as before. First time I OC'ed I was terrified, made 5 stops in town and one being a Pizza Joint. Had no confrontations nor stares whatsoever. I OC using a K&D Holster Eagle Defender OWB which holds my SP101 high and tight a long side of my waist at the 3:30 position. I never OC with a "In your face attitude".

I think a long these lines. Back in the day, we are talking back in the mid 1800's when Cattleman carried openly coming into town for a beer or picking up supplies do you think they worried about becoming a target? I don't but that is my own opinion just something to think about. I carry with this analogy in mind. I just don't think a perp is going to be scouring the aisles of Walmart looking for someone who is OC'ing just my opinion.

The bottom line is this "I" feel quite comfortable OC'ing...

I strongly recommend checking out www.opencarry.org it is a great resource of information from people with the same mindsets...


Dave

ChicagoTex
July 3, 2008, 02:24 PM
First let me say I am a TX resident and CHL holder.

That said, I oppose the TX Open Carry initiative for one key reason:

If open carry is legalized, there will be a huge surge in locations where carrying a firearm (concealed or not) is illegal. Merchants who previously didn't know/notice/or care will now be pressed into taking sides on the issue and a lot more carry-prohibition signs are gonna go up.

I don't think armed citizens in fewer places is an improvement.

Van55
July 3, 2008, 02:25 PM
When I visited VA a while back I did both... the screwy part about that state's law is you have to open carry in a bar or place that serves drinks...


You do have the option not to carry at all in Virginia establishments that sell liquor for on-premises consumption..... The General Assembly voted down a change in the law to permit concealed carry in bars this last year. I am not sure why.

Yankee Traveler
July 3, 2008, 03:01 PM
"I humbly dissagree.... I think you should have the choice "

+1

"MS has a real goofy law, open carry is legal, but you have to have a CCW to legally open carry... like I said, goofy."

Thats great! You have to have a permit to carry - open or concealed!!

"There are places for open carry....walking in the woods for example....working as security. But in general, keep it concealed."

Excellent! In general...but good to have the choice if needed.

"dont really want to open carry either, but would be nice not worry about losing chl because the wind blew my shirt open or my gun printed through my shirt. how about a few laws for the gun owner, why give the folks any more reason to hassle a gun owner, just cause my cars will go 140mph does not mean I drive that away. Let the people be the judgement of that one"

+1

"This is a petition about a personal freedom, not a poll about how you prefer to carry."

"If open carry is legalized, there will be a huge surge in locations where carrying a firearm (concealed or not) is illegal. Merchants who previously didn't know/notice/or care will now be pressed into taking sides on the issue and a lot more carry-prohibition signs are gonna go up."

There is that...But it's all about the choice. I like the idea of open carry only if you are a concealed permit holder, Keeps at least some of the riff raff out.

FLA2760
July 3, 2008, 05:08 PM
Here in FL there is a petition for open carry going around. I CCW and will continue to do so; however under current law if any portion of your gun should inadvertently show you could get in trouble. If open carry were adopted here I think that would eliminate that problem. ;)

nobanforme
July 3, 2008, 05:59 PM
In Utah I have the choice to open carry or conceal carry. It's nice to have that freedom to choose. I do both depending on my mood and I have never been harassed by a LEO. I think it's a mindset thing for me I've carried everyday of my life from 1981 until today I don't plan on changing that now.

R

HK123
July 3, 2008, 06:06 PM
Here in FL there is a petition for open carry going around. I CCW and will continue to do so; however under current law if any portion of your gun should inadvertently show you could get in trouble. If open carry were adopted here I think that would eliminate that problem.

That's my concern too. You are not allowed to show the outline of a gun. So what if you bend over and oops the grip pokes out. if someone could ID it as a gun you are in trouble. There's no "oh but I didn't pull it out" or "oh well, it was always under my shirt". The idea is nobody should be able to tell what it is.

I hate that...can't always keep it from poking out or whatnot.

varoadking
July 3, 2008, 06:08 PM
Open Carry = John Wayne Syndrome

IMHO & YMMV

HK123
July 3, 2008, 06:12 PM
Honestly I don't know how many people would take advantage of open carry at all. There seems to be a lot of fear, but how many of you who live in an open carry state regularly see random people walking around with a gun on their side?

I'm betting very few.

maqueswell
July 4, 2008, 12:08 AM
+1 ChicagoTex

I would rather carry concealed. There are several reasons in this thread that would support my decision.

Heepstress
July 4, 2008, 01:04 AM
When I lived in NC (OC state), I occasionally saw people who chose to open carry. Nobody paid much attention to them, even in places like Wal-Mart. The people didn't have any type of attitude other than "normal person" and didn't attract attention.

OC isn't an option in SC, at least not yet. Not sure if I'd open carry, but I'd like to have the option.

If that TX petition is open to out-of-staters, I'd sign.

freakshow10mm
July 4, 2008, 01:19 AM
I respectfully disagree with ChicagoTex. MI is open carry. We don't have the John Wayne syndrome. Our no carry places didn't increase. I guess TX being gun friendly is a joke.

How is concealed carry a surprise defense? All the armies in the world don't train their soldiers to patrol with concealed arms. Surprise is an OFFensive tactic, not a defensive one.

ChicagoTex
July 4, 2008, 02:22 AM
I guess TX being gun friendly is a joke.

It's my experience that most people who don't live in Texas have extremely outdated ideas about what it's like down here (or those ideas are based solely on the extremely rural areas). Particularly where gun-friendliness and "redneck" lifestyle is concerned I find most parts of Oklahoma to be much more analagous to peoples' ideas of Texas than the Dallas/Fort Worth, Austin, Houston, San Antonio, or Corpus Christi areas (there are probably more notables, I'm forgetting).

I don't honestly think Texas "feels" much more gun-friendly than most of the outer suburbs of Chicago, though the laws themselves are much friendlier (for now).

I certainly don't feel "welcome" to carry my gun anywhere around here, but since it's concealed, it's a non-issue.

Sturmgewehre
July 4, 2008, 02:56 AM
I can't believe you guys wouldn't support open carry.

Let's hide our 2nd Amendment rights away. Let's not show people how many we number and how positive we are in the community. Let's give in to the idiots that think guns are evil or are taboo. Let's reinforce the notion that guns are evil, and should be out of sight.

If you don't support the carrying of firearms, open or concealed, you're anti-gun and anti-2nd Amendment in my book. I've never understood the notion that guns are evil, dirty, taboo, or that their presence invites crime (the most absurd notion thus far).

Let's have freedom of speech, as long as no one can hear it. It makes perfect sense.

:barf:

Sturmgewehre
July 4, 2008, 03:02 AM
Honestly I don't know how many people would take advantage of open carry at all. There seems to be a lot of fear, but how many of you who live in an open carry state regularly see random people walking around with a gun on their side?

I'm betting very few.
You've never been to Arizona.

The problem with mandatory conceal carry is that in places like Washington State, you can lose your CCW if your jacket blows open and someone see's your handgun... and calls the police.

What is it about handguns that is evil, wrong or otherwise something that should be hidden away by law?

Most states that allow open carry (like my own) don't have many folk carrying that way... humm, why is that? Let's not mandate that someone must conceal their Constitutional rights, we should let them decide for themselves what is best for them. Most will opt to conceal, but for those who don't... what's your beef? Are you threatened by the presence of a handgun? Is the concept of "out of sight out of mind" comforting to you?

It's silly to me.

Playboypenguin
July 4, 2008, 03:10 AM
...at least not as a practice.

I feel it is contrary to everything I have ever been taught about proper defense and retention. I also think that a lot of people do it for the wrong reasons.

Supporting it in principle...that is a different story. I can support it in that context but would never do it myself. :)

Sturmgewehre
July 4, 2008, 03:44 AM
What's wrong with carrying openly, and if it's a hazard to the party in question, then explain why police carry openly and nationally their crime statistics aren't any worse then Joe Sixpacks.

If open carry inspires crime or somehow exposes the carrier to undue crime... please explain Arizona's carry laws and their violent crime statistics.

Playboypenguin
July 4, 2008, 03:48 AM
What's wrong with carrying openly, and if it's a hazard to the party in question, then explain why police carry openly and nationally their crime statistics aren't any worse then Joe Sixpacks.
Police are an organized and open deterrent to crime. They are one of many and never stand alone. You mess with one and you know there are dozens ready to back them up with full authority of law.

As an individual you do not enjoy these same protections and you simply become a more complex target...but you also present a possibly bigger reward to an attacker. Once they know your defenses it is easy to circumvent them.

MSgt G
July 4, 2008, 05:05 AM
Here in Georgia, with a Georgia Firearms License, you can carry open or concealed. I mainly carry concealed, but do carry open on occasion. It's good to have the RIGHT to do either. I don't think we need to give up ANY of our 2nd Amendment rights.

I have witnessed no "John Wayne" types here. In fact, most people are even more polite than the average citizen. The LE doesn't bother me (in fact they aren't supposed to stop you to ask to see your license just because you're carrying any more than they're supposed to stop you while you're driving your car just to ask to see your license; there needs to be another reason.)

I've never had anyone even say a thing about me carrying open. Of course, I always dress so I look "presentable" so as to not give a bad appearance to the non-gun crowd. We don't need to give them any more "ammunition."

Again, it's good to have the option to do either. And remember, once we lose our rights it's hard to get them back. I think we, as responsible gun owners, should support both open and concealed carry then choose our own preferred carry method. Remember, we're on the same team and in this fight together.

If anyone is interested, check out www.GeorgiaCarry.org. These folks are doing amazing things for gun owners here.

I'm not a Texas resident, but if I can legally sign this petition please let me know.

Al Lowe
July 4, 2008, 05:50 AM
I suggest, for those among you who doubt the value, as well as the good idea of open carrying, you visit Open Carry dot org (http://www.opencarry.org) and visit their forums (http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/) as well. They are replete with individual stories and examples of open carry. By and large, most go without incident, some end in less than desirable circumstances, and some are down right funny.

For me, the best effect of open carry is I am WAY more aware of my surroundings than with carrying concealed. That, and I get to educate folks from time to time on what is legal activity in this state.

izzkidioto
July 4, 2008, 08:06 AM
Sturmgewehre, so what you are saying at the end of page 1 is that we should all OC to make a statement to the public and force the idea of our firearms on them? In addition, if we support CC and not OC we are hypocrites?

We need to revisit the reason we carry in the first place...and it isn't to make a statement to everyone, it is for personal protection and on occasion, for the safety of others around us. I am not negating your opinion, it is most certainly yours, but I would have to agree with maintaining the element of surprise and that some of us don't want every person to know we are armed.

Wether we are armed or not, a certain awareness is necessary. It shouldn't take a firearm to give you a heightened sense of cognitive awareness.

wdelack
July 4, 2008, 09:29 AM
I guess TX being gun friendly is a joke.

The people of Texas are very gun friendly, as I have met and know more gun owners than non gun owners. I find it that most Texans are not so open with regards to their gun ownership. I think they are very aware of the political climate (and anti-gun journalism :barf:) and know to keep quiet. However strike up a friendly conversation and let it turn to firearms.... It is probably this way with a lot of Americans.

I, personally, support OC but would not flaunt it myself. I don't need to strap a gun on my hip just to go to the movies, but I might if I were to head out to the Texas hill country for the weekend.

rsgraebert
July 4, 2008, 12:46 PM
i don't OC here (legal in ohio) except on my own property, but it's nice to know I can't get in trouble for printing or flashing accidentally.

Sturmgewehre
July 4, 2008, 01:29 PM
Police are an organized and open deterrent to crime. They are one of many and never stand alone. You mess with one and you know there are dozens ready to back them up with full authority of law.
I don't buy that. If a lone officer faces a lone criminal, I don't believe there is any difference. I know in Chicago police are shot at all the time... people don't seem to be too worried about messing with the brotherhood.

If some thug kills me, the police will come for him too... just as they would if they killed an officer.

Ironically, you claim openly armed police are a deterrent to crime yet you believe openly armed citizens are an invitation to crime. I don't understand the logic.

AFshooter
July 4, 2008, 01:42 PM
So quick to give away our constitutional rights because we are worried about what someone might think?

Carry your pistol, however you gotta do it.

Sturmgewehre
July 4, 2008, 01:46 PM
Police are an organized and open deterrent to crime. They are one of many and never stand alone. You mess with one and you know there are dozens ready to back them up with full authority of law.
If you're hoping to maintain an "element of surprise" it could be argued that you're welcoming conflict and the opportunity to use your weapon. If you elect to carry openly, that's a big red sign to a potential mugger that you're not going to be a victim.

Every single study I've read, and in my criminology classes we learned that criminals almost always take the path of least resistance. If you hide your weapon, you may look like a potential target to a criminal on the hunt. You've just invited a crime in this instance. Now, had the criminal noticed you carrying a handgun on your hip, they would likely avoid you and opt for the easier pray. Criminals aren't always stupid, they aren't out to get killed or take undue risk when other options are available to them.

I would like for anyone here who opposes open carry to cite crime statistics of open carry states vs. concealed carry states to prove or disprove the notion open carry invites crime or that people who carry openly are more often victims of crime than those who don't.

DKA
July 4, 2008, 02:26 PM
You should do everything that you can to get Open Carry, while I Conceal Carry most of the time, I do Open Carry Some. There are advantages to both. The Thug that is going to bully or scare someone, will never do it with Open Carry, but at the same time the element of surprise is there with Conceal Carry. Go for both.

Water-Man
July 4, 2008, 02:50 PM
I believe anyone with a carry permit should have the option to open carry.

JohnKSa
July 4, 2008, 03:20 PM
I would like for anyone here who opposes open carry to cite crime statistics of open carry states vs. concealed carry states to prove or disprove the notion open carry invites crime or that people who carry openly are more often victims of crime than those who don't.The percentage of people open carrying is essentially negligible, the idea that it would affect crime statistics is laughable. Until a significant percentage of the population of a particular state (by that I mean maybe 1% or so) is actually OC'ing, there won't be a way to say anything based on statistics.If you're hoping to maintain an "element of surprise" it could be argued that you're welcoming conflict and the opportunity to use your weapon.Off-duty cops carry concealed, are you saying that a rational person would think that off-duty cops are welcoming conflict more than on-duty cops? The assertion is not supportable.

Furthermore being able to choose the time and place (or even IF) you respond is a significant advantage in some situations. If you are openly armed, you don't get to make those choices, they're made for you. I listed some real world situations here (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2917233&postcount=72).You've just invited a crime in this instance.First of all, the idea that a CC invites crime by concealing is ridiculous. Statistics show that CC actually discourages violent crime across the board because criminals consider that anyone in the area (including the victim) may be armed and they have no way to tell who is and who isn't.

On the other hand, if they can pinpoint who's armed and who's not, their job is much easier. In fact, here's an instance (http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/reports/reports2006/073106robNewtonPatton.htm) where a person invited crime by OC'ing. The proof is that nothing besides his gun was taken.

"Two suspects approached the victim from behind, and placed a metal object up to the victim’s head. The suspects took the victim’s hand gun which he was openly carrying. The suspect’s then fled the area. The victim was not injured."

I believe OC should be legal, but I don't think it's the best carry option for several reasons.

Moving to Tactics & Training--looks like that's now the main topic of this thread.

JayCee
July 4, 2008, 03:33 PM
I'm not sure I would ever open carry in a public setting, but I'm not convinced that prohibitions on open carry are a reasonable restriction on the right to keep and bear arms.

Elvishead
July 4, 2008, 05:51 PM
Freedom of choice. Now let us talk about abortion, should we? :DLOL

Get the picture?

Ya na ya na ya na.

Nnobby45
July 4, 2008, 06:47 PM
Most will opt to conceal, but for those who don't... what's your beef?

My "beef" is that everybody's attention is on me and my gun, in direct conflict with going about my business unnoticed while blending in. I only want me to know I'm armed--it's a secret.;)

I think surprise is a tactical advantage. Open carry may deter 9 out of 10 Bubbas, but surrendering your tactical advantage to the 10th one could cost you your life.

Of course, making a statement about the 2A and being noticed is what it's about for some (not all), and I support their right to open carry all they wish. As mentioned, it's strategy and tactics for me--not politics.

Are you threatened by the presence of a handgun? Is the concept of "out of sight out of mind" comforting to you?


No. I LIKE everybodys' eyes on you, and I especially like to observe who's observing you.:cool:

Sturmgewehre
July 4, 2008, 07:59 PM
The percentage of people open carrying is essentially negligible, the idea that it would affect crime statistics is laughable. Until a significant percentage of the population of a particular state (by that I mean maybe 1% or so) is actually OC'ing, there won't be a way to say anything based on statistics.
Statistics exist regardless of the percentage. How many people who are openly armed are victims of crime? It doesn't matter if they represent 90% of the population or 1%, there are statistics.


Off-duty cops carry concealed, are you saying that a rational person would think that off-duty cops are welcoming conflict more than on-duty cops? The assertion is not supportable.
It was a comment made by the poster I was commenting on, not concealed carry in general. I think that distinction is clear if you read the exchange.

Concealed carry is just as viable as open carry and it should be left to the discretion of the person, not the government.

Furthermore being able to choose the time and place (or even IF) you respond is a significant advantage in some situations. If you are openly armed, you don't get to make those choices, they're made for you. I listed some real world situations here.
In "some" situations. You can't measure the number of crimes you deter. But you can talk to inmates and ask them if armed citizens deter crime and in every instance I've read the overwhelming majority of criminals say that armed citizens do in fact do deter them.

First of all, the idea that a CC invites crime by concealing is ridiculous.
So you're saying a hidden weapon is more of a deterrent than an openly displayed weapon? I think that is ridiculous.

Statistics show that CC actually discourages violent crime across the board because criminals consider that anyone in the area (including the victim) may be armed and they have no way to tell who is and who isn't.
That's works great on a national average, and I agree with it. But unfortunately if you're a 140lbs nerd walking down the street at 1am you look like an easy mark regardless of the national average regarding CCW. If you have a weapon openly displayed, you look far less appealing to a mugger. That's a fact.

On the other hand, if they can pinpoint who's armed and who's not, their job is much easier. In fact, here's an instance where a person invited crime by OC'ing. The proof is that nothing besides his gun was taken.

"Two suspects approached the victim from behind, and placed a metal object up to the victim’s head. The suspects took the victim’s hand gun which he was openly carrying. The suspect’s then fled the area. The victim was not injured."
Anecdotal. Are you saying a person carrying concealed has never been jumped from behind? That's absolutely ridiculous, if that's what you think.

I believe OC should be legal, but I don't think it's the best carry option for several reasons.
I don't recall saying it was the best carry option. Please quote me if I said that. I only believe it should be legal in all 50 states - and should be left up to the discretion of the firearm owner.

Keltyke
July 4, 2008, 08:13 PM
Open carry and concealed carry should both be legal. Also, both should be OPTIONS, neither should be mandatory. The decision to carry open or concealed should be up the the individual, depending on the place and situation. There are sound reasons both pro and con for both.

Playboypenguin
July 4, 2008, 08:25 PM
Freedom of choice. Now let us talk about abortion, should we?
I actually feel pretty much the same way about both. I do not agree with the practice, I would never do it myself, and I think it causes more problems than it solves...but I still support a person's right to do both.

JohnKSa
July 4, 2008, 09:07 PM
Statistics exist regardless of the percentage. How many people who are openly armed are victims of crime? It doesn't matter if they represent 90% of the population or 1%, there are statistics.I didn't say that no statistics existed, I thought I was very clear. What I said was: "Until a significant percentage of the population of a particular state (by that I mean maybe 1% or so) is actually OC'ing, there won't be a way to say anything based on statistics. "

Ok, since that's apparently not clear, here's an example. Tell me the statistics on people struck by lightning while eating drinking a diet soft drink vs drinking non-diet soft drinks.

Obviously there are so few people are struck by lightning that when you combine the additional requirement that they also be drinking a soft drink at the time it's unlikely that you're going to get any data points at all.

And even if you DO get a data point or two, there's still not sufficient data to tell you anything about which is more likely to occur. Until you get a significant number of people in the studied category you can't say much about how likely they are to be in another category as well.Concealed carry...should be left to the discretion of the person, not the government.I agree 100%. That's why I posted this: "I believe OC should be legal..."In "some" situations. You can't measure the number of crimes you deter. You didn't read the examples provided in the link or you would realize how irrelevant this remark is. If you carry openly and are involved in an armed encounter, you have only the following options. Run/attempt to run, draw immediately or allow yourself to be disarmed/neutralized. It's inconceivable that an armed criminal would perpetrate a crime with an openly armed person present and simply allow that person to stand there unmolested. If, on the other hand, you are carrying concealed, you do not automatically present an immediate threat which means that you have a chance to remain part of the crowd (or at least not be thought of as an obvious threat) until there is an opportune moment to respond.

The examples I listed in the link gave some examples of situations where lives were saved as a result of a concealed gun being used successfully at the most opportune moment where an openly carried gun would have forced an encounter immediately with results that would have been questionable, at best.So you're saying a hidden weapon is more of a deterrent than an openly displayed weapon? I think that is ridiculous.I didn't say that. What I said was that concealed carry has shown to have a beneficial effect on violent crime because criminals know that some of the population is armed but they don't know which ones. That is a deterrent that works whether there is an armed person present or not.

A criminal can immediately tell if there is someone OC'ing. They can then simply avoid committing the crime while there is an armed person around.

Think about it this way. Police have always OCed. In spite of that, crime goes down when concealed carry laws are passed. If a few people OC'ing (police, for example) is such a deterrent to crime then why is it that CC laws further reduce crime? Because criminals don't commit crimes while there's a cop around. They just wait until the cop leaves and go ahead with their original plans. You say deterrent, I say postponement. On the other hand if you KNOW that several hundred thousand citizens in your state are armed but you can't pick them out by looking, THAT'S a deterrent. Now you can't tell who's a victim and who's armed.

Yes, OC can be a deterrent in the immediate vicinity of an OC'er although the counterexample I posted proves that this doesn't always work--and it can even make one a target. CC provides a level of deterrence everywhere, all the time.Anecdotal. Are you saying a person carrying concealed has never been jumped from behind? That's absolutely ridiculous, if that's what you think.First of all, I'm not attempting to say that ALL OC'ers are targets, I'm only showing that it CAN happen. Therefore it is NOT anecdotal, it is proof. It is proof that it CAN happen because it is proof that it HAS happened.

Second, I'm not saying a CC person has never been jumped from behind. What I AM saying is that a person who is successfully concealing a handgun has never INVITED attack by being armed while at least one OC person has.I don't recall saying it was the best carry option.I don't recall saying you said it was. I made the comment to explain my views on OC, not as a response to anything you posted.

Sturmgewehre
July 4, 2008, 10:39 PM
I don't recall saying you said it was. I made the comment to explain my views on OC, not as a response to anything you posted.
Then I think we agree.

skeeter1
July 4, 2008, 10:56 PM
"If open carry is legalized, there will be a huge surge in locations where carrying a firearm (concealed or not) is illegal. Merchants who previously didn't know/notice/or care will now be pressed into taking sides on the issue and a lot more carry-prohibition signs are gonna go up."

It's technically legal here in Ohio, and I've done it many times on public hunting land, but try doing it anywhere else, and you're going to be surrounded by a SWAT team. I'd love open carry, but it's not likely to happen here. :(

TexasSeaRay
July 4, 2008, 11:18 PM
If I simply had to use my carry piece, I'd rather use it with the element of surprise on my side. Exposing one's situation to the scrutiny of a possible opponent is a big tactical mistake. Open carry gives 'em a chance to think.

Just curious.

For those that so authoritatively state that "element of surprise" is a big advantage (and in a DEFENSIVE situation at that. . .), I'm just wondering what your actual experience or qualifications are to make that huge assumption?

All the tactics taught to me by the government emphasized that the element of surprise was essential in OFFENSIVE operations. And in over twenty years of carrying a weapon professionally, I saw and experienced that to be true.

Police are an organized and open deterrent to crime. They are one of many and never stand alone. You mess with one and you know there are dozens ready to back them up with full authority of law.

I'll buy that for SEALs. But I never really experienced that in LE. Some cops would back you up, but just as many were cowards and bullies. I never ran into neither a coward or bully in our military outfit.

Personally? I'm all for open carry and I'm all for having the choice. If open carry concerns you, then don't open carry.

How simple is that?

But please do not try to tell me that the way you prefer to view your Constitutional right is superior to the way I choose to view my same right.

How would you feel if I lobbied for Open Carry only--with no conceal carry?

We should have the choice.

Jeff

JohnKSa
July 5, 2008, 12:29 AM
I think that stating it as "the element of surprise" is misleading.

I don't see CC as offering "the element of surprise" so much as it is a way to not expose all your capabilities to every passer by.

It's not that you're planning to "surprise" your attacker, it's that you want an option or capability left open to you that he doesn't know about as opposed to laying all your cards on the table.

As a police officer, that option might be a concealed backup gun or a bullet proof vest (although vests aren't much of a secret these days.) In a military situation, it would be technology, capabilities or weapons that have been kept secret from the enemy.

In nearly any armed confrontation it is universally considered beneficial to be stronger and more capable than the enemy realizes you are. The other option would be to appear so strong and capable that the enemy didn't dare attack. I would think several armed persons could manage the latter but a single OC'er doesn't seem to generate that level of respect. If it did we wouldn't see police officers shot and the example I posted earlier of a man who had his openly carried handgun taken from him wouldn't have happened.

Earlier on the thread I posted a link to a post with several real world examples of how being armed with a concealed handgun saved lives. The first one was a shooting range/gun store holdup in which the employees were taken hostage. The criminal came out of the range portion of the business with a loaded long gun, "ready to do business". There was no time for the employees to respond, but fortunately one was armed with a concealed handgun.

The criminal took the employees out into the alley behind the store and indicated he was going to kill them. The armed employee bided his time, and when the opportunity presented itself, he pulled his handgun and was able to disable the criminal by shooting him several times in the chest. No one else injured.

Had he been openly armed he would have had to shoot it out with the criminal immediately when the confrontation began, or he would have been disarmed. I suppose it COULD have worked out as well as it did, but it seems very unlikely since the criminal was at his highest readiness level at that point and the employee would have been taken by surprise. Because the gun was concealed he didn't have to act immediately and was able to pick the moment that offered the best odds for victory.

Nnobby45
July 5, 2008, 02:46 AM
I think that stating it as "the element of surprise" is misleading.......

......I don't see CC as offering "the element of surprise" so much as it is a way to not expose all your capabilities to every passer by.





Well, I'm not as philosophical as you are. I just don't want anyone to know I'm armed, and don't want attention called to me. Don't have a quarrel with those who open carry--just not for me unless I'm camping or in a rural environment. Even there, I tend to cover things up.


The criminal took the employees out into the alley behind the store and indicated he was going to kill them. The armed employee bided his time.....

Now that's what I'm talking about!:D

He had the OPTION to draw and engage when HE wanted.

Apparently he was surprised and couldn't have drawn immediately, in which case he could have died on the spot when Bubba spotted his gun, or, in any event, would not have had the opportunity thereafter.

Unless you count down on your knees begging for your life, only Bubba would have had a sayso over life and death after that.:cool:

kraven
July 5, 2008, 07:49 AM
I support anyone's right to carry and choose their carry method as they see fit, just as I do.

Nnobby45
July 5, 2008, 06:50 PM
I support anyone's right to carry and choose their carry method as they see fit, just as I do.


I think that's the overwhelming view, including mine.

The disagreement is whether it's a tactically sound pratice.

And, with some, it's a matter of "excercising my right" type of thing.


Some may even argue that it's a deterrent. I believe that, too. I believe that open carry deters the biggest % those who would victimize you, but could get you killed where some others are concerned.

Since I already know I have the right to carry, I excercise it by being as low profile as possible. Open carry is very high profile. There isn't any in between.

I can't think of a way for me to be more low profile than to have everyone's eyes on someone elses gun, while not even relizing I'm there, and no clue at all that I'm armed.

On the other hand, I remember sitting in one restaurant while a gentleman at the next table stood up and took off his jacket and hung it on his chair. His weapon was plainly visible (and on the outside isle). I don't think anyone else noticed. The black weapon, ISP, with black shirt made it inconspicuous though plainly visible. Didn't see a badge.

izzkidioto
July 6, 2008, 11:59 PM
I agree with all of Nnooby45's statements, with the addition of some "making a statement that we can and should open carry."

I think that if you can and desire to OC, so be it. The same goes for CC...It is not anyone's right to tell you how to carry, and what thought you have put in to the pros and cons of each, having formed your own opinion around, are just as valid as the next person's. Remember, all of these are opinions and should be treated that way, with respect and an open mind.

ronc0011
July 7, 2008, 01:33 PM
I think if OC were common the crime rate would fall through the floor. After all if you’re the bad guy and everywhere you look there’s someone with a gun I’m betting you would find your career opportunities very discouraging.

Recon7
July 7, 2008, 03:01 PM
I like where this post has gone since my post on the first page. It seems most people agree fundamental right, not preferred mode of carry.

I dislike this notion of the cross hair on your back while open carrying. I think the chances of being attacked go DOWN when you OC and the chances of being attacked for your gun go up slightly. It is probably a more than fair trade off. Yes it has happened to citizens exercising their rights to OC, I'm sure it has happened to LEO's and people who ccw as well. It is just a risk of carrying a gun and retention should always be considered. Oooh and if you ever find yourself in a hostage situation, you will be shot immediately:rolleyes: I'll take my chances, like I said fair trade.

Rant over. I occasionally OC because I don't have my CCW yet, but even then I will CCW as primary carry mode and sometimes OC because I just love the convince of my paddle holster

ChicagoTex
July 7, 2008, 04:01 PM
After all if you’re the bad guy and everywhere you look there’s someone with a gun I’m betting you would find your career opportunities very discouraging.

Contrary to popular belief, most criminals don't wind up criminals because they think it's an exciting career opportunity - it's more commonly done out of desperation (very often a chemical withdrawl induced desperation no less). I'm not saying some people wouldn't be deterred, but I think the percentage would be less than you'd think.

izzkidioto
July 7, 2008, 05:13 PM
I agree with ChicagoTex. Many of our arguments make sense and are assuming the perps, who are desparate, are thinking in their right mind. This is not the case. Just as we use any means necessary to achieve our goal of living, so do they. Desperate times call for desperate measures no matter how you slice it or for whom.

ronc0011
July 7, 2008, 10:33 PM
Contrary to popular belief, most criminals don't wind up criminals because they think it's an exciting career opportunity - it's more commonly done out of desperation (very often a chemical withdrawl induced desperation no less). I'm not saying some people wouldn't be deterred, but I think the percentage would be less than you'd think.






Ya know I did about 8 years as a homeless person and everyone I dealt with was living on the shady side of the law. Many came from crapy homes so that living on the streets was the better alternative. There were several who were vets, who for what ever reason just didn’t make the transition back into society. There were a few who were just mean, plan and simple. Met this one guy who had recently been released from prison and his specialty was just to pick someone out on the street and walk up to them and tell them to give him some money. He was a very intimidating figure and he always chose people who were obviously not going to argue the point with him. I knew a lot who would just game you out of your money. Then there were those who would do the snatch and grab, like break car windows where there was anything of value in plan sight, grab it and run. There were the few who would do the gun bit usually without ever actually drawing the weapon, just lift their shirt tail to show the weapon because obviously an open drawn weapon attracts a lot of attention. The average criminal in this country does what he does because that’s what he knows how to do and I have never meet one who is going to choose the person with the weapon strapped to their side for a victim. Most criminals are not criminals from desperation, their criminals for lack of options. There’s no desperation in their acts, they’re well thought out acts or at least pretty well thought out and they usually have the experience of previous attempts to know what to expect from their victim so they have a reasonable expectation of keeping control of the situation. I knew this one guy they called 211 Joey because armed robbery was his thing. Joey wasn’t desperate, he did what he did because it worked and I suspect it was an ego thing as well.

Thing is I also knew a lot of people who didn’t resort to criminal activities in order to take care of them selves. Also knew a lot of people who trafficked in controlled substances to make their money and even these managed to do this with out robbing people or in fact with out the need for firearms. For the average criminal who chooses to rob or burglarize it is a choice plan and simple and in making that choice they have also chosen where you fit into the grand scheme of things and of what value your life is.

In all those years, often sharing the same camp or boxcar with many of these people, I don’t think I ever met a single one who would knowingly choose the armed person for his victim, ever. Just because these people don’t have a lot of choices doesn’t mean they’re stupid or crazy.

Semi-jacketed
July 26, 2008, 07:04 PM
Thank you, ronc0011; it's always good to learn from the voice of experience as opposed to those in ivory towers spouting what they think is the truth born of a false premise. My past career choices have allowed me to see and "work with" the criminal elements as well. It isn't desperation that causes people to be criminals, it is their individual choice. I've interacted with and observed many a desperate and poor person, and very few of them choose to commit criminal acts upon another person for their personal benefit. A tiny fraction of people living below the poverty level actually commit a crime of robbery, theft, burglary, fraud, battery or assault. If it were a significant fraction in the least, we wouldn't have a working society at all. In fact, most fraud I've investigated comes from the middle class that had a comfortable financial life, but simply wanted more and the larceny in their heart, selfishness and lack of regard for another person caused them to commit a crime. Rich or poor the motivation is the same-- I want what I want, and I don't care who I have to hurt to have it.

But back to open carry, those same criminals are looking for a victim, not a fight. If the person appears to be able to take care of themselves, or raise such a stink to cause problems, then they are usually passed over unless some tactical error (usually in the form of inexperience) is made.

Sparky33
July 26, 2008, 07:54 PM
the reason to get open carry is so that when you ccw if you print or your shirt comes up when you reach for something, you cant get charged with brandishing.

JohnKSa
July 26, 2008, 08:31 PM
the reason to get open carry is so that when you ccw if you print or your shirt comes up when you reach for something, you cant get charged with brandishingThere is no brandishing law in TX. There are two offenses that are related to displaying weapons and NEITHER of them would result in charges being filed because of an accidental failure to conceal.

The first law has to do with displaying a weapon in a manner calculated to cause alarm. Clearly that would not apply to your shirt riding up accidentally.

The other is INTENTIONALLY failing to conceal by a CHL holder.

.300H&H
July 27, 2008, 12:47 PM
It's kinda like going to a beach. If it's a nude beach, everybody's gonna stare at you and make you feel weird if you're the only one wearing clothes. Likewise if it's not a nude beach, and you show up naked - well, people are going to look at you funny too.<or worse>


In the 19th Century, it was kinda like a nude beach ie. everybody carried openly, and you might be feeling kinda vulnerable and odd in some places if you didn't do it too. Nowadays, it's just the reverse. Go with the flow.:D


Also consider the odds of things. How likely is it that someone will bump their car into your car, and when you go out to investigate, they start ranting and prove themselves to be a nut. Now if you're openly carrying a gun, they might even make a nasty false allegation about it. Hmmmmm...what's the liklihood of some situation like that unfolding compared to the liklihood of needing your open carry gun to save the day. I'd say that there's lots of the former situations, and only an extremely rare chance of the latter. Concealed - is the way to go. Life's a beach.:cool:

hkg3
July 27, 2008, 02:15 PM
Spend some time in Arizona, open-carry is NOT a big deal at all.

It’s not too uncommon to see people OC. The only real annoying thing is sometimes someone will come up to you and want to talk about your gun.

The closest I’ve ever come to being bothered by a LEO is when one walked by me at a restaurant; he paused slightly, glanced at my .45 and continued walking.