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KChen986
June 30, 2008, 07:38 PM
Been looking to get a M1A for quite some time now, the look of the rifle, the heritage, and the potential for eventually tuning it to make 1,000 yard shots make it an appealing rifle for me.

However, the least expensive (new) M1A that I've found seems to be Springfield's M1As--In addition I've heard reports that they shoot more than 1 MOA, which would make it a somewhat shakey hunting rifle (right?). Eitherway, could someone enlighten me with their opinion, and suggest a good starting brand of M1As?

Slugthrower
June 30, 2008, 08:00 PM
Depends on what you intend to hunt with it. It won't do for really small animals but is great for medium to large game.

Deer require a rifle and shooter to be able to shoot about 3 MOA for a maximum range of around 330 yds. In other words you need to be able to keep your rounds inside a 10 inch circle/vital zone in order to get a clean kill. If you had a rifle in .308 Win that you could shoot 2 MOA consistently it would be good for 500 yds. on deer. You also need to have about 1000 ft. lbs of energy at the targets distance to get that clean kill. The .308 Win. will do this with the proper bullet at 500 yds, so long as you do your part. The M1A is a decent hunting rifle.

trwtech
June 30, 2008, 11:28 PM
I shoot typically 1.5 MOA with SA surplus out to 200 yds. with my loaded model from Springfield. Haven't got into loading my own yet, and can't afford good 168 gr. loads :). If you are serious about getting a quality M14 type rifle, don't forget to look at Fulton Armory - requires spending a little more of your disposable income but from what I've read it's money well spent.

Limeyfellow
June 30, 2008, 11:39 PM
It be an okay rifle. One thing to take into account that the loaded and match rifles that will give you the accuracy in the rifle will cost you far more money. A standard M1A can be from 4-2 MOA, depending on ammunition choice. For the money you are going to spend, there are better choices for hunting. Then you are going to have to find a mounting system for a scope too. It's a doable rifle but I would probably pick something else.

Art Eatman
July 1, 2008, 09:15 AM
If deer hunting is what's in mind, the M1A will definitely hold minute-of-supper. Two MOA will get you to 300 yards on Bambi...

T. O'Heir
July 1, 2008, 08:37 PM
"...would make it a somewhat shakey hunting rifle (right?)..." Nope. You don't need 1 MOA for deer. 2" to 3" at 100, consistently, is sufficient for deer hunting.
"...a good starting brand of M1As?..." There's only one 'brand of M1A', Springfield Armory Inc. Everything else is a semi-auto copy of the M14. Mind you, so is the M1A, but 'M1A' is a registered trade mark owned by SA Inc.
"...have to find a mounting system for a scope..." Lots of 'em. Some better than others and none of 'em exactly cheap.

Ruger4570
July 1, 2008, 08:46 PM
Other than being "kinda" heavy, it will do just fine.

SR420
July 1, 2008, 09:09 PM
KChen986 Been looking to get a M1A for quite some time now, the look of the rifle, the heritage,
and the potential for eventually tuning it to make 1,000 yard shots make it an appealing rifle for me.

With 1000 yard shots potentially in your future I suggest you find a nice, slightly used, all original Poly Tech or Norinco M14 for less
than $850.00. These rifles come standard with many desirable USGI M14 type features like chrome lined barrels and forged receivers.

It should make a fine hunting rifle as is. It will respond well to basic national
match accuracy mods and it's forged receiver, forged 1-piece op rod & trigger
group will come in handy when you build it out for 1000 yard sub moa accuracy.

Smith Enterprise, Inc. made this M21A5, it was tested at Ft. Benning in March of 2008.
The rifle fired groups under 1 MOA at 1000 yards with M118LR ammo.

http://www.smithenterprise.com/images02/M21A5-benning.jpg


SEI built two M21A5s for me on Poly Tech receivers and he can build one for you.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/LITEM21A5s.jpg


I don't use traditional optics, but you will and SEI can set you up.

44 AMP
July 2, 2008, 01:08 AM
I would not choose it for hunting (deer) unless I was using handloads tailored to the gun. And it is not the rifle, it is the ammo. The rifles are certainly powerful enough, and accurate enough.

But the M14/M1A is an improved Garand design, and is intended to run on GI ammo. GI 7.62 Nato (.308 Win) is loaded to the same velocity as the old GI .30-06 load, a 150gr @ 2750+/-fps. And it is loaded to fall within the correct pressure curve for the rifle. The rifles also do well with the heavier (172gr) target bullets at appropriate velocity.

The problem is that commercial .308 Winchester is loaded hotter. Sometimes nearly 200fps hotter than GI ammo. And that can put a strain on the rifle. Also the pressure curve may not be optimum. If far enough out of the range the rifle uses, it can cause damage to the gun. The odds are high that the M1A will stand the slight overstrain without damage, but why risk it?

Heavy loads, or loads at the wrong end of the pressure curve are know to have bent operating rods in M1 Garands, and have the potential to do the same to the M1A.

If hunting with the M1A, I would load ammo to GI specs, except substituting a soft point hunting bullet for the military FMJ. Or, if limited to commercial ammo, just turn the spindle valve off, making the gun a stright pull bolt action with spring closure. This simple step will avoid any risk to the gun from ammo with an out of range pressure curve.

I have also heard (but cannot verify) that some 180gr RN bullets have been known to have some lead shaved from the nose during the feeding cycle, which can build up causing jams. Something to be aware of if you use this bullet weight and nose profile. I have never used it in my M1A, so I cannot say if it is true or not, only that the rumor exists.

Using tailored ammo, or used as a manual repeater, I would not hesitate to use the M1A for big game hunting with a magazine size that meets game laws (usually less than 10 rnds for hunting). 5 rnd mags are available and generally work fine, except they are a bit awkward to remove because there isn't much sticking out to grab hold of.

if the M1A was the only rifle I had, I would use it, under the above noted conditions. Otherwise I would use a lighter rifle, one purpose built for hunting, to save weight.

Mannlicher
July 2, 2008, 08:43 AM
adequate? yes of course. Optimum? hardly.

my lightest M1A tops the scales at around 10 pounds. The iron sights suck for hunting. Add glass and mounts, and you are pushing 12 pounds, and thats with a barrel length that is very unhandy.
You also have to be careful about the ammunition. The M1A is head spaced for military spec 7.62 NATO, not SAMMI spec .308 Winchester.

john in jax
July 2, 2008, 03:37 PM
For a hunting M1A, especially if you are going to be humping it a lot and/or hunting in thick brushy areas you might consider the shorter and lighter SOCOM 16 or Scout Rifle.

I had a SOCOM 16 (16" ported bbl) and it was very quick and light - - and probably would have made an ideal rifle for hunting Florida's swamps and tree farms. The Springfield Armory "scout rifle" has an 18" bbl topped with a combo brake and flash hider. These shorter bbl's make for lighter, quicker handling rifles that should make great hunters, but it is a trade off, because it make those long range shots that much more difficult.

ROCK6
July 2, 2008, 07:10 PM
I have an older Bush model (18" barrel) that I put a forward rail/scope on. Yeah, it's a little on the heavy side, but it carries well and is quick to to the eye. I've only bagged two deer with this setup, but I wouldn't hesitate to take it out again.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/ROCK-6/MIA.jpg

ROCK6

surg_res
July 2, 2008, 07:27 PM
Of the 25 or so rifles in my safe, the m1a is the last one I'd grab during deer season. Not because I don't love the thing, but because it isn't designed for hunting. If you're looking for a do-it-all gun, join the club!:D And after this many (though 25 rifles is not many in these forums), I must admit that I still haven't found it. Instead, I stumbled into an addiction for walnut dressed steel tubes.

As for the 1000 yard shots, all I can say is good luck.

ronc0011
July 3, 2008, 04:54 PM
The standard M1A rifle produced by Springfield Armory can be brought up to sub-MOA accuracy if you’re willing to invest the time and money, mostly time. Or of course you can send it out then it’s mostly money.

Any sub-MOA 308 is a more than adequate hunting rifle. Maybe a little heavy. In fact if you can get it down to 1.5 MOA I would have no qualms about hunting with it. If you live in Southeast Texas brush and thicket then any “right out of the box” M1A will due just fine for a hunting rifle because you will never see that 200 - 300 yrd shot. In Southeast Texas 3 inches at 100 yrds will work all day long.

As for caliber. let’s face it, people send their little girls out with 223s to hunt deer and they work. Any 308 cartridge is going to be just fine as long as you can be assured of a good shot.

I would heed the advice about proper loadings for the M1A though. The M1A should have no problems with any quality 165 gr. commercial cartridge. Also the quality of the ammo is going to have a direct effect on the accuracy of the rifle. And poor quality ammo risk things like improperly seated primers or inconsistencies in the powder loads which can be dangerous in an M1A, particularly the primer issue.

rogertc1
July 3, 2008, 05:46 PM
I have a Springfield Armory M1A Scout (wood) which is a fine gun. Nice thing about SA is they are USA made and you can find them to buy. :)

Mannlicher
July 3, 2008, 06:54 PM
I have done some hog hunting with my SOCOM. Its still heavy, well over 9 pounds, and chunky. In no way does it handle like a Marlin carbine.
Still, with the Federal 150 grain Classic SP, its effective. I find that I take it more often if I am going to be stand hunting in low light.
As I said earlier, it will work as a hunting rifle, but its certainly not made for it.

http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/Mannlicher/10_2.jpg

USMCGrunt
July 3, 2008, 08:05 PM
I have 4 M-14s, use them for hunting deer and I love them. Mine are quite acurate with the rack grades doing 1.5 to 2 MOA groups and my green meanie (my DMR clone) will do 1/2" on a good day and 3/4" MOA groups easy. Are they heavy? I guess when you compare them to a typical hunting rifle they are but you just need to get stronger is all. Hey, I was a machine gunner in my day so even the weight of my DMR clone is still lighter than my old '60E3 and I humped that pig for many many miles so really it's all in what you're used to. I have no complaints about using one.

Deaf Smith
July 3, 2008, 08:57 PM
Any .308 is adequate for deer. So why shouldn't the M1A be?

Medicineman
July 5, 2008, 01:00 AM
Can't use commercial hunting ammo? Then why does springfield list the spec's on the M1a as Caliber: 7.62 NATO (.308 Winchester)? And the manual, under Ammunition reccomends SAAMI spec ammo, which would include the commercial hunting stuff. It does note that non military ammo may have a softer primer, leaving it more prone to slam-fire, but that is the only warning I see. Hey I'm not calling anyone out, as I've only owned mine for about a week, so there's a ton I don't know, but I sure would appreciate some more folks chiming in on that subject.

As for hunting, sure Ive got a bunch of rifles that are "better" deer rifles ie scoped .270 and .243's that are lighter and sub moa accruate. But my M1a is going to get some use too for deer and pigs this season just 'cause I like it and it's different, and as far as I know I'll be using the Winchester power point in .308 Win.

madcratebuilder
July 5, 2008, 08:41 AM
If you shoot bullets that are over 165gr you need to tweak the gas system. Sadlak offers a grooved piston for this. You need to check headspace to be sure you are safe for both 7.62 and .308.

ronc0011
July 5, 2008, 10:42 AM
The head space is only an issue when firing 7.62 ammunition in a rifle chambered for 308. The 7.62 is a slightly longer cartridge, like maybe a couple of thousandths of an inch. Which BTW is about the thickness of a human hair.

Firing a 308 cartridge in a rifle chambered for 7.62 will stretch the case on the .308 ammo there by effecting its usefulness for reloading.

SR420
July 5, 2008, 12:01 PM
madcratebuilder If you shoot bullets that are over 165gr you need to tweak the gas system.

This has not been my experience. I have shot 175s and 180 sub sonic without issue.
Standard gas cylinder, plug and piston. I have no need for a grooved piston.

Mike 0351
September 23, 2009, 11:46 AM
Sir,

Greetings and thank you for a well written informative article on
hunting / ammo and the M1A.

Question: If there is a problem, as you stated, with using commercial ammo for hunting with the M1A, what ammo is used by National match shooters?
Are they using commercial ammo? Is it putting the same stress on the M1A?

thank you

Longdayjake
September 23, 2009, 12:37 PM
Heavy loads, or loads at the wrong end of the pressure curve are know to have bent operating rods in M1 Garands, and have the potential to do the same to the M1A.



As far as I know the m1a does not have this same issue as the M1 garand. There is a gas bleed off valve at the end of the piston to release any excess pressure. The Garand and the M1a may look similar, but its the piston in the m1a that drives the op rod and not the op rod that drives itself. Once the piston gets driven down all the way the pressure bleeds off through the valve. I have never heard of anyone that has bent a m1a op rod. Thats not to say that it wont happen, but I doubt that there are any commercial loads that will hurt your rifle. I handload my own but I would not hesitate shooting store bought stuff through mine if I didn't care about the accuracy. My Loaded shoots about 1/2" with my home made m118LR rounds. I have taken mine out hunting here in Idaho, and I will tell you that it was heavy but any rifle is heavy when you are literally climbing up and down mountains.

If you shoot bullets that are over 165gr you need to tweak the gas system. Sadlak offers a grooved piston for this. You need to check headspace to be sure you are safe for both 7.62 and .308.

This may be true with the socom rifle as it wont shoot the 175 grain bullets that I shoot from my Loaded. But my loaded shoots them wonderfully!

Dirty_Harry
September 23, 2009, 12:49 PM
Heavy, but I like it better than my BAR in .308. The big problem is that they are finicky with bullets over 150 grain.

attila787
September 23, 2009, 02:35 PM
My impression was that if the barrel is marked .308 and not 7.62 it was ok to shoot commercial ammo.

Any thoughts????

On the hunting the only problem I have is the safety. It pretty loud taking it off safety especially out huntin

ADKhilander
September 25, 2009, 07:14 PM
Heavy is about the only con. If you "2 finger (fore & aft)" the safety to move it and not click it, it is silent. Accuracy is beyond the realm of reasonable. I have always used the 180 gr rounds, with no problem, but thats only about 200-300 rnds. The one thing I dont like about semis in general for hunting is the cartridge engagment at the field or in the stand. With the G3/hk91 or even the ar10, this is accomplished by loud CLAAANK of chambering , (my dpms lr308b doesnt have a fwd assist either). My M1a, and my 750 rem, allow ~silent lock and load, and the ability to verify "forward assist" by nudging on the slide levers. I agree that the iron sights on GI M1As suck for hunting (in woods), but they do offer tritium solutions for that, and, scope mounts ofcourse.

Jason_G
September 25, 2009, 11:30 PM
The M1A is head spaced for military spec 7.62 NATO, not SAMMI spec .308 Winchester.

I can't speak on earlier M1As, but at least on recent M1As this is not true.
They are headspaced to shoot either/or. In the neighborhood of 1.6315".

My impression was that if the barrel is marked .308 and not 7.62 it was ok to shoot commercial ammo.

Any thoughts????
I shoot commercial .308 through mine all the time. As long as you stay under 180 gr (and preferably below 170), and don't use the light magnum loads or anything else that will cause your op rod to cry, the rifle will do just fine.

I hunt with mine. Some folks say the irons suck for hunting, but I totally disagree. I think they are much better than traditional open sights. They may be darker in low light situations, but IME, if I have enough light to make a responsible shot, I have enough light to see through the aperture. In addition, my eyes had gotten to where they were refusing to focus when using traditional open sights. I've always felt like optics were "cheating" unless shooting from significant distances, so I had become pretty frustrated with deer hunting. Shot a friend's Mini-14 while popping cans at another friend's farm, and lo and behold, the aperture sight was a miracle worker. Bought a M1A, and love it. I killed a doe last season with it.

That being said, yes, it is heavy. The bolt, safety, and magazines are loud. Not a big deal as long as you do your best to keep it quiet and don't let the bolt slam home full force, but still a nuisance nonetheless.

As for dealing with the loud safety, I pinch it between my thumb and forefinger to be sure to ease it into position and not to let it click too loudly. You just have to be careful.

As for dealing with the weight, get a sling. Use it. Not just to carry your rifle, but use a hasty sling to steady your shots. A good sling is priceless.



MHO: If you are looking for a semi auto that is a do-all rifle that'll also hunt, the M1A is a tough platform to beat. If you are looking for a "hunting only" rifle to mount optics on, there are better and cheaper choices.


Jason

Bart B.
September 26, 2009, 06:06 AM
I wouldn't want an M1A for a hunting rifle; there's others on the market much easier to shoot accurately and are more accurate out of the box for one third to half the price.

For those concerned about the ammo used in M1A/M14 and M1 service rifles chambered for the 7.62 NATO round, consider the following....

Headspace in rifles accurized by military shops all had minimum headspace because that's what produced the best accuracy. Typical headspace in thes rifles is 1.630 to 1.631 inch. The differences in specs between 7.62 NATO and .308 Win. chamber headspace are not at issue with these rifles, but may be with rifles built by shade tree mechanics.

Many thousands of rounds of commercial .308 Win. match ammo military teams bought from Federal, Remington, Hornady as well as handloaded commercial .308 Win. cases loaded by teams' support personnel were fired through these rifles without incident. One load the USN and USAF liked for long range in their Garands was 44 grains of IMR4320 in an M118 primed case with a Sierra 190 seated on it. That's a pretty stiff load but properly built Garands had no op rod problems. Another load all the services' rifle teams used duplicated the blue pill (pressure test) load used by arsenals; pulling the 147-gr. bullet from an M80 ball round then seating a Sierra 168 in it producing a round more accurate than LC match ammo. The Army and USMC teams pulled M118 match bullets then seated a Sierra 180 in the case; another stiff load that won long range matches without incident.

bhannah
September 26, 2009, 09:20 AM
With 1000 yard shots potentially in your future I suggest you find a nice, slightly used, all original Poly Tech or Norinco M14 for less

Thanks for starting my morning off with a good laugh...:)

KChen986
September 26, 2009, 09:30 AM
Wow this is an old post.

I have a Springfield Armory M1A National Match now. Don't shoot it as much as my AR, but it holds tight tight groups at 50 yards. :) (Cloverleafed with Irons).

The M1A is surely a heavy rifle, which would make it "non-ideal" for a long day of hiking and hunting, but since it's only rifle I have in a full sized cartridge, it'll make do for now.

I think, that SR420, by recommending a Norinco or Polytech was recommending them in the sense that, I can buy a nice, forged reciever rifle for cheap ($800), then upgrade it with a JAE/SAGE stock, and all the other fixings to make it a super precision rifle.

As someone stated earlier, there is no "one size fits all" rifle, especially for someone like me, who likes military rifles.

Eitherway, thanks for all the advice again.

SR420
September 26, 2009, 10:55 AM
KChen986



I think, that SR420, by recommending a Norinco or Polytech was recommending them in the sense that, I can buy a nice, forged receiver rifle for cheap ($800), then upgrade it with a JAE/SAGE stock, and all the other fixings to make it a super precision rifle.

Yes, but you don't really need the modern stock.
A "well built" ChiCom M14 in a tight fitting synthetic USGI stock will do the job.
It can be done on a budget.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/Suppressed-M21A5-RRM.jpg


bhannah, your reply made me laugh... thanks :D

bhannah
September 26, 2009, 01:28 PM
:D SR420 your killing me....

SR420
September 26, 2009, 01:59 PM
bhannah

SR420 your killing me....

... with facts and logic.

ranger dave
September 26, 2009, 02:15 PM
are you kidding me my first sniper rifle in the army was a m 21 max eff range is 800 yards no way is that rifle set up to fire at 1k. but back to the post . so what you are saying is rambo wants to hit a deer at 1k . # 1 no way to ensure a clean kill at that range #2 if you wound the deer no way to track it your 1k away over rought landscape #3 308 win dropes 25.7 m.o.a. at 1k most good scopes will only give you 10 m.o.a. of adjustment so you have to use a 20 m.o.a. base to rase the frount of the scope witch means you cant whitch ranges say a deer comes out at say 200 yards your hold under is about 6 feet . #4 a chim com m14 in a tight stock made by slave labor will not hols sub m.o.a. ( allso only made by poly tech norico never made them) #5 a bullet fired at 2500 fps ( thats 833 yards per sec.) and slowing down the while time takes 2 .68 sec to reach the target . so you have to aim where the deer will be at in 3 sec #6 you cant see a deer at 1k how do you know if its a buck or a doe or a rancher fixing his fence #7 who wants to drag a deer 1k so no its not a good rifle for deer or anything else at 1k . now for my rant the 1k shot is the new buzz now yes they have 1k matches but you are trying to hit the center of a 10 foot target witch is not to hard to see cause its big and white. the record is down to 5 inches or so whitch makes that guy a great marksmen with 10 of thousands in ammo and fifle and range time. and you realy think a guy with $ 850 and a store bought box of ammo will repeat

bhannah
September 26, 2009, 02:18 PM
Please let us know what you are shooting that m14 at, at that range.
Didn't see any optics on yours please don't say you can see a 10" plate at 1000 yards my gut already hurts to much.

A 175 gr will drop to -243 inches at 1000 yards that’s over 20 feet.
Barn (not barn door) accuracy with an m14 (chicom) out of the box?
Maybe with a match barrel and 12moa base and quality optics... you could hit the door....

Look I am not trying to bag on your m14 (great rifle) but come on man lets at least be a tad realistic here...

Sorry for hijacking the thread and to answer the OP yes a M1 will kill a deer but my ethics with hunting would limit my shot to 100yards max.

SR420
September 26, 2009, 02:26 PM
:) You two crack me up!

Let's stop the hijack in its tracks and get back on topic.

KChen986 Been looking to get a M1A for quite some time now, the look of the rifle, the heritage,
and the potential for eventually tuning it to make 1,000 yard shots make it an appealing rifle for me.

SR420 With 1000 yard shots potentially in your future I suggest you find a nice, slightly used, all original Poly Tech or Norinco M14 for less
than $850.00. These rifles come standard with many desirable USGI M14 type features like chrome lined barrels and forged receivers.

It should make a fine hunting rifle as is. It will respond well to basic national
match accuracy mods and it's forged receiver, forged 1-piece op rod & trigger
group will come in handy when you build it out for 1000 yard sub moa accuracy.

Smith Enterprise, Inc. made this M21A5, it was tested at Ft. Benning in March of 2008.
The rifle fired groups under 1 MOA at 1000 yards with M118LR ammo.
http://www.smithenterprise.com/images02/M21A5-benning.jpg

bhannah
September 26, 2009, 02:34 PM
sr420
How is that getting back on topic, your post has nothing to do with the OP's question.
And please..please...please tell us all what your m14 setup is. It sounds like something I would be interested in (but then again I have always been interested in magic tricks)

O.K i am done....

SR420
September 26, 2009, 03:51 PM
Read what I have posted until it sinks in because what we've got here is...failure to communicate.

Why do you insist on ignoring what I suggested to the OP?


I'm certain that you don't care to know the build details on any of my M14s.







.

ranger dave
September 26, 2009, 04:45 PM
sr420 what range was it tested on at fort benning? and buy the way there is no such thing as a m21a5 the m21 was replaced in ist first model the a5 is sume bs sa came up with to sell them to the army it didnt work.

ranger dave
September 26, 2009, 04:47 PM
yes a 308 will kill a deer . if you want to carry the weight . nad no a m 14 is not a 1k rifle

SR420
September 26, 2009, 05:29 PM
The M14 can be a 1K rifle.

ranger dave sr420 what range was it tested on at fort benning? and buy the way there is no such thing as a m21a5

Really... ??

http://www.smithenterprise.com/support05.03.html

Smith Enterprise’ Crazy Horse M21A5 7.62×51mm (http://www.tactical-life.com/online/special-weapons/smith-enterprise-crazy-horse-m21a5-762x51mm/)


Like I said... You two crack me up :p

Bart B.
September 26, 2009, 08:27 PM
From Ranger Dave:#3 308 win dropes 25.7 m.o.a. at 1k most good scopes will only give you 10 m.o.a. of adjustment so you have to use a 20 m.o.a. base to rase the frount of the scope witch means you cant whitch ranges say a deer comes out at say 200 yards your hold under is about 6 feet . #5 a bullet fired at 2500 fps ( thats 833 yards per sec.) and slowing down the while time takes 2 .68 sec to reach the target . so you have to aim where the deer will be at in 3 sec now for my rant the 1k shot is the new buzz now yes they have 1k matches but you are trying to hit the center of a 10 foot target witch is not to hard to see cause its big and white. RangerDave, you need to check your numbers for the .308's ballistics, modern scope adjustment ranges and high power rifle target sizes. Those you've mentioned are quite a bit off the mark.

A 180-gr. spitzer boattail bullet leaving a .308 Win. case drops about 440 inches or 44 MOA at 1000 yards and it takes about 1.7 seconds to get there. And even the service sights on M14's and 7.62 NATO converted M1's need about 46 clicks up from boresight (they're a tiny bit less than exactly 1 MOA per elevation click) to strike center with M118 match ammo on a 1000 yard NRA LR target whose size is 6 foot square (the old 10-foot wide military 'C' 1000 yard targets went away about 100 years ago).

Regarding the M1A's (or M14NM, whose receiver the M1A was copied from 'cause it doesn't accept the full auto adapter) ability to shoot well at 1000 yards, it (they) sure are capable. Best accuracy I know of from service team members and top civilians winning matches and setting records with them shooting handloaded ammo (new cases, not resized fired ones which are not good for accuracy) is about 8 to 9 inches at 1000 yards. 7.62 NATO converted Garands did as well; may be a bit better. But it takes the best barrels chambered and fit properly along with all the other parts being perfectly matched to the barreled receiver. And these rifle's have to be shot single load/fire for best accuracy; they change point of impact a bit as a full magazine starts getting empty. Just don't load more than 10 rounds in the magazine if you need to have several back up shots ready.

amprecon
September 27, 2009, 02:44 PM
All my rifles are hunting rifles, they're also my range rifles and shtf rifles. They may not excel at one thing perfectly, but they are capable at most things I use them for. They are an M1A, an M1 Garand and an SLR-95. They are heavier than their sporting rifle cousins, but I just accept it and adapt.

Jason_G
September 27, 2009, 04:57 PM
Some folks are mixing up target shooting and hunting. The OP (although an eternity ago) was asking about hunting. Yes, despite what some folks are saying, an accurized M14 is certainly capable of target work at 1km, a la high power competitions et al, but no one in their right mind is going to be trying to shoot a deer from 1km :rolleyes:

Jason

Bart B.
September 27, 2009, 05:36 PM
Jason comments..... but no one in their right mind is going to be trying to shoot a deer from 1km
Don't know if these folks are in their right mind, but they tout their 1K yard plus shots at game animals on http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/ and http://www.precisionlongrangehunter.com/forum/ubbthreads.php.

It's common practice for two folks to be at a vantage point both checking for game, then when it's seen, they get ready. The shooter takes his scoped 20 pound bench gun chambered for a souped up .338 magnum, places it on bags atop a portable bench while the other guy sets up the spotting scope. One shot's fired at a rock near the game then the spotter gives corrections to the shooter until the rock's hit a time or two. Then the sights are put on the animal and the shot's fired.

Much celebration goes on at the kill site as well as the web site. Back patting and other kudos abound as these guys are so proud of their rifle building, ammo making and shooting skills.

edward hogan
September 27, 2009, 07:14 PM
Not much of a 1000 yd rifle; maybe 750-800.

dondavis3
September 27, 2009, 07:36 PM
A M1 is fairly accurate (if worked on) out to 400 to 500 yards.

Most hunters (not range shooters) don't take shots longer than that out of respect for the game you're shooting at.

edward hogan
September 27, 2009, 08:29 PM
There are still more than a few who shoot M14/M1a in Service Rifle competition. At 600yds the 168 or 175 gr bullet will buck the wind very advantageously. The M14/Garand sights are among the best issue sights on any military rifle. Great for hunting.

When I decided to scope my M1a I just didn't care for the results. I changed to an AR-10 for better ergonomics, and found the rifles are more advanced in many ways.

If you want to shoot a .308win at 1000yds, study up on the Palma competition and the specialized gear used there. 150/155gr bullets at 2900fps from 28-30" barrels is what it takes, from the stoutest powder charges.

If you really want to shoot 1000yds the 260rem is about the Best Bet in a standard cartridge, maybe .243 with a 7 or 8 twist barrel.

DPMS might still chamber their AR-10 in .260rem; if you want a semi-auto. There are a lot of 6mm and 6.5mm shooters using the AR-15 platform out to 1000yds. Look at a Satern barreled 6.5grendel or a 6mmAR Turbo. See what guys are shooting in F-class.

1000yd shooting with any .308 is iffy. 750-800/900 yds maybe. Would really need perfect conditions and a lot of luck to hit at 1000 repeatedly. That's why the Army is reconfiguring their sniper rifles to .300win these days; to gain accuracy and consistency at greater distance.

My perspective is that if you really want to learn how to shoot, try a Service Rifle match or two. If you can score well there and learn to call the wind, you know about the practical limits of marksmanship. An M1a will sure work in that venue if you can work it.

Bart B.
September 28, 2009, 07:27 AM
Ed Hogan sez....1000yd shooting with any .308 is iffy. 750-800/900 yds maybe. Would really need perfect conditions and a lot of luck to hit at 1000 repeatedly. That's why the Army is reconfiguring their sniper rifles to .300win these days; to gain accuracy and consistency at greater distance.I disagree with needing perfect conditions and a lot of luck to hit at 1000 repeatedly. All you need is accurate rifles and ammo as well as the skills and knowledge to dope the wind and get shots off repeatably. Luck is for Las Vegas.

I also disagree with the accuracy improvements a 30 caliber magnum has over the .308 Win. Having shot both in many 1000 yard matches wearing out a few barrels in each, the .308's shoot just as accurate as the 300's. And they're easier to shoot accurate due to less recoil while the bullet's going down the barrel. Palma rifles shooting the .308 Win. are just as accurate as 300 magnums in benchrest or sniper rifles. The best of both will stay inside 5 to 6 inches at 1000 yards all day long.

The big 300's do buck the wind about 15% better, but many folks will take the .308's to the 1000 yard line because they'll score higher with it than the magnums. There's a lot of .300 magnum rifle movement in recoil before the bullet leaves the barrel. Keeping it the same for each shot ain't easy when you've got to come out of position somewhat to reload.

Jason_G
September 28, 2009, 09:53 PM
Jason comments.....
Quote:
but no one in their right mind is going to be trying to shoot a deer from 1km
Don't know if these folks are in their right mind, but they tout their 1K yard plus shots at game animals on http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/ and http://www.precisionlongrangehunter....ubbthreads.php.

It's common practice for two folks to be at a vantage point both checking for game, then when it's seen, they get ready. The shooter takes his scoped 20 pound bench gun chambered for a souped up .338 magnum, places it on bags atop a portable bench while the other guy sets up the spotting scope. One shot's fired at a rock near the game then the spotter gives corrections to the shooter until the rock's hit a time or two. Then the sights are put on the animal and the shot's fired.

Much celebration goes on at the kill site as well as the web site. Back patting and other kudos abound as these guys are so proud of their rifle building, ammo making and shooting skills.

I don't intend to disrespect any of the folks over at this website you are talking about, but I tend to agree with this statement:
Most hunters (not range shooters) don't take shots longer than that out of respect for the game you're shooting at.

It might be possible to make harvests at 1km, but it is not ethical IMHO. There are way too many variables at those distances for me to personally consider it an ethical practice. If an animal moves, even as the trigger is pulled, the flight time of the bullet alone, even with a fast traveling round, is long enough to allow the animal to turn a good shot into a gut shot with a single step.

I understand that there are always "what ifs" with hunting, but an ethical hunter minimizes the "what ifs" whenever and wherever possible. Shooting at 1000 + meters does not fit this description at all.

I heard something one time that sums it up pretty well for me, "A target shooter gets as far away from his target as possible and tries to hit it. A hunter gets as close as possible and tries not to miss."

Anyway, the getting close part is what makes hunting fun in the first place.

Again, JMHO.


Jason

boneman_66
September 29, 2009, 12:14 PM
For what it's worth, I'm a deer hunter and an M1A Scout owner and I'm not real anxious to take my M1A deer hunting for the following reasons:

1) It's big and heavy
2) It's not nearly as easily scoped as guns more suited for the task (not all M1A receivers are the same and/or mil spec and many people including me have had challenges using after market bases that bolt onto the side of the receiver)
3) It's friggin LOUD. I made the mistake of taking my ear protection off for ONE shot to see just how loud and I will never make that mistake again. Unless you intend on wearing protection (which most hunters probably don't) you will absolutely cringe at the thought of firing an M1A while hunting


Given that my only other 'suitable' rifle is a Marlin 336 in 30-30 I thought the M1A in .308 might also double as a more powerful deer rifle, but for the hunting we do here in VT, I can't imagine any scenario that I'd take my M1A over my Marlin 30-30 (unless of course it's post-SHTF and I have to shoot 19 zombies first before using my last shot on a deer lol).

Boneman

dondavis3
September 29, 2009, 12:17 PM
+1 boneman_66 :)

csmsss
September 29, 2009, 12:49 PM
I wouldn't hesitate to take an M-1A hunting if that's what I had in the closet and I was hunting at reasonable ranges. The only caveat is whether you as the hunter are comfortable and skilled with iron sights - but if you are, the rifle will certainly do its part at any reasonable hunting range.

sthomper
November 25, 2012, 01:02 AM
http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=41

the above link says a comp stock standard m1 weighs 8.8 lbs true???


this link http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire/model-700/model-700-vtr.aspx

says a rem 700 vtr 308 weighs 7.5 lbs....true??

i guess both are with out optics but that doesnt seem like much weigh difference to me.

so if you want a rifle in 308 that can fire quick repeted shots and kill deer as well the comp stock m1 seems a good choice....one rifle handling both roles well, iow.

i have been within feet of deer and several yards of elk...i doubt 1000 yards is necessary

kraigwy
November 25, 2012, 09:51 AM
This is really an old post.

Wonder how the OP did with his hunting with the M1A.

Mine is certainly accurate enough but its too dern heavy.

jhenry
November 25, 2012, 02:01 PM
It is a zombie thread.