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VaTechKA
June 29, 2008, 07:44 PM
I am trying to find a good home defense shotgun for a low price. I like the pistol grip and 18" barrel for home defense due to maneuverability. What is a good option on a budget? I really like the Remington 870, but I can't afford it. Any other ideas? Mossberg 500 seems popular, but is it a piece of junk?

EDIT: When I say I cant afford the 870, I mean the ones that I am finding for $600+, not the express.

rantingredneck
June 29, 2008, 07:47 PM
Mossberg 500 and Remington 870 Express are very good guns for not a lot of cash. Used ones abound for less $.

Before you settle on a pistol grip only stock try one out if you can.

VaTechKA
June 29, 2008, 07:49 PM
I have shot a pistol grip before with slugs and I am comfortable enough with that to hit somebody within a room of my home. Why would you say that it's not necessarily the best option? Because it's harder to control, or harder to aim?

rantingredneck
June 29, 2008, 08:03 PM
Both really.

One of the main benefits of a shotgun is the ability to bring lots of lead to bear quickly, but you still have to hit what your aiming at.

You'll hear a lot on gunforums that you don't have to aim a shotgun. You do. Some folks can shoot a PGO from the hip and reliably and repeatably hit targets with them. Those folks have been around shotguns for a while typically though. Most of them long enough to learn that PGO shotguns work best in the movies.

A properly fitted stock will be just as fast and easy to handle as a PGO. Faster and easier really.

But to each his own. Remington and Mossberg PGO's are both widely available. I've even got a PGO stock for my mossberg 500. It isn't on it, but I have one. Not much more, for me, than a range toy or an option for packing a scattergun on trips where I don't want to carry a conspicous long gun case. Usually I find a way to pack the long gun case.

VaTechKA
June 29, 2008, 08:05 PM
In light of your suggestions, I may go try out the pistol grip again before purchasing. I definitely didn't have any problem with the pistol grip gun at the range, but I will test my skill at greater distance and see how I do. I have much experience with shooting shotguns for sport, but not much experience shooting from the hip haha.

Tom2
June 29, 2008, 08:08 PM
Bet you could hit with the pgo if you had an aftermarket laser, or even a very narrow focused beam flashlite, installed on it. I have seen the little tubular lasers with the barrel clamps at gunshows and I don't think they are really super expensive, like laser grips are or something. Theres a new idea-laser pistol grip for shotgun. Might have to stick out a little further on a shotgun to the side, but sounds workable for short range use!

KCabbage
June 29, 2008, 08:09 PM
Greetings.
I bought my 18" Mossberg new for $240 shipped I beleive. That was 4-6 months ago and I noticed the price went up $20 or so.
I've shot about 100 rounds of slugs, birdshot, and high & low recoil buckshot and it's ran flawless. I totally trust it. I put a Pachmayer Vindicator pistol grip on it too, very nice!
The Mossberg actually passed the military trials so it's got to be tough.
If you had an extra couple hundred dollars I recommend going through the paperwork to get a 14" or less barrel for better manueverability inside the home. If not, an 18" will do.
If you need help finding a good deal let me know. When I was looking, I looked pretty hard to find the best deal.
Take care

VaTechKA
June 29, 2008, 08:13 PM
Tom2 - I like the way you think :D

KCabbage
June 29, 2008, 08:24 PM
Don't let people tell you pistol grips are hard to hit with. Nonsense!
I can hit small objects from 15-20 yards away shooting from the hip. You can also raise it to eye level to aim for better accuracy.
The recoil doesn't bother me either. As long as you pull the stock forward with your pumping hand it's not a problem.

Dave McC
June 29, 2008, 08:41 PM
First, any of you PGO fans live near MD?

I repeat the challenge I first made here 10 years ago. And in that time not ONE PGO fan has taken up the gauntlet.

You pick the COF, range and ammo. You use a PGO shotgun with any and all addons you want from belt feed to lazers.

I'll use a close to stock but well worn 870 with a real stock.

We'll shoot for score with time deciding ties, though there won't be any.

Results will be posted here and on THR.

While some may achieve some measure of proficiency with a PGO shotgun, putting the same time, effort and ammo into a more user friendly weapon will see the shooter becoming absolutely deadly.

And for the original question, darn near any modern US made or badged pump gun will serve well. Just shoot it until it feels like a body part.

VaTechKA
June 29, 2008, 08:44 PM
Dave -

I don't think I am going to be doing anything like that within my home haha.... We're talking ~10 feet between me and my target... I feel like I could manage that with a pistol grip, but like I said - I am going to go to the range and make sure first.

YukonKid
June 29, 2008, 08:51 PM
oh boy, here it goes again

get an 870, don't change it except for maybe a mag extension. SHOOT A LOT get really good and sleep well at night. You don't need all that crap hanging off it, you don't need a pistol grip (saw down your stock if you want it closer to your body, this way it is still pretty natural to shoot and balanced)

If you want the next option down buy a used 870, and then if you don't like that idea buy a mossy.

YK

moonpie312
June 29, 2008, 09:04 PM
I have the perfect solution. I own a Maverick 88 Security. From factory holds 8 shells with one chambered and comes with a 20 inch barrel. Its a good gun all stock, but I upgraded to a Advanced Technologies top folding stock. Great from the hip or folded out for shoulder use. The gun runs around 250 and the stock is about 60 bucks. I spent 10 more bucks and got a 5 shot shell holder for the stock. I absolutely love it, goes everywhere with me. I would upload a picture but its not cooperating. If your really interested I can probably email it to you.

rantingredneck
June 29, 2008, 09:20 PM
upgraded to a Advanced Technologies top folding stock

ATI and Upgrade don't go in the same sentence......

rantingredneck
June 29, 2008, 09:22 PM
VATeckKA.

I see you're in Charlotte. If you're gonna be up in the Burlington area any time soon PM me and I'll let you try an 870 and Mossberg 500 side by side. I'll even put the PGO on the Mossberg for you and let you decide which works best.

Seriously.

nemoaz
June 29, 2008, 09:24 PM
but not much experience shooting from the hip haha.Keep in mind the A team shot from the hip all the time and they never hit anyone in years and years of gunfights. That should be a warning too you.

IMO a short length of pull buttstock (either aftermarket or one of the youth stocks) is just as handy inside a home and still allows you to shoulder and point for longer shots.

Doesn't looks as tacticool maybe, but that can be a good thing. Well, officer, I grabbed my skeet shotgun because he I felt threatened by him... I'm feeling sick. I think I need some time to think and time to talk to my lawyer.

oneounceload
June 30, 2008, 06:54 AM
A regular stock is easier to stand on end by the bed
If you're in your bedroom, a regular stock shouldn't be much of an issue as far moving around
It is harder to point your shotgun with a PGO stock
The recoil is more severely felt than with a regular stock.

I bought a Mossberg 500 with a PGO years ago - after a session or two, I bought an aftermarket regular plastic stock and put it on and it's been that way ever since

JMO

Dave McC
June 30, 2008, 08:12 AM
VA Tech, at 10 feet your pattern is palm sized with most ammo. To neutralize a threat at that range, that pattern has to be aimed. That's much easier to do from the shoulder.

Shotguns are not immune from the rules that govern defensive weaponry. That load, to be most effective, has to be inserted into the CNS to ensure an instant stop.

If most any shotgunner with some clays or hunting experience can mount and shoot within a second to hit a moving target 4" or so across, what advantage does a stockless shotgun need to be superior at ANY range or condition?

gotguns?
July 1, 2008, 06:52 PM
I recently bought a mossberg 500 Persuader 12ga 7+1 shot 3" chamber 20" barrel. sweet peice. waiting on a Hoage pistol grip to come in the mail never shot a pistol grip shot gun before but this one is spossed to help manage recoil. bought the gun for $275 new from gander mountain they wanted $350 for it but it never hurts to ask what the bottom dollar is even on a new gun;) houge grip(i cant spell) $25 from midwayusa thats my setup nice gun for cheap.

Scattergun Bob
July 1, 2008, 09:35 PM
You know that for a while I've been saying that if Dave McC "says it" that's good enough for me. After a career as a agency armor and relationships with Tommy N for Remington and carrying Scatterguns in the service I sometimes get cocky, Dave's always there to show us the right path!

A short story as a enforcer to the lesson by Dave. Many years ago I was asked by my agency head to evaluate the "then" new to us Ithaca stake-out model 37 in 20 gauge. This was a pistol gripped contraption that held 3 rounds in the mag. A case of ammo a new gun and a pay check to boot!!!!
I won't take the long way around the barn with this, at 10 ft this gun shot racket ball size (very small) patterns, and I could easily miss B-13 targets!

I do not see the advantage of pistol grips on scatterguns, Well, maybe I'm just a poor shot. (not)

Good Luck guys & Be Safe

Dave McC
July 2, 2008, 06:51 AM
Thanks for the endorsement, Bob.

There's a line of demarcation here between the PGO fans and the non fans. Oft the determinant is simply experience.

I've known plenty of folks whose workplace is in harm's way. Cops, soldiers, and people whose jobs require weapons and expertise in their use. NONE have PGO shotguns as their go to. Other than for breaching, there's not much use for them among cogniscienti.....

nemoaz
July 2, 2008, 09:44 AM
Agreed, cops and soldiers carry shotguns with stocks. Guys on TV's and wannabes carry PGOs. (I will admit to having previously wasted money on a PGO and other even more useless shiite which I'm too ashamed to mention.)

ATI and Upgrade don't go in the same sentence......No truer words have been spoken.

Rustynuts
July 4, 2008, 10:00 AM
Yes, stock AND PG is better!

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t67/Krustyboomer/familypics008-4.jpg

King Ghidora
July 6, 2008, 03:42 AM
Personally I wouldn't use a PGO shotgun for anything except to take to a flea market and trade it for a better gun. The ONLY advantage is you might be able to get off a shot in a tight space with a PGO gun that you maybe couldn't do with a gun with a stock but that is a very rare situation. The downside is so big it is no fair trade off.

Aiming from the hip is not something you can practice at and be good at doing it. You are either able to do it or you aren't. There are people who will improve some but shooting from the hip is something you're born with really. It's like shooting a 25 foot jump shot with a basketball. Some people can do it and others can't. A friend of mine was in the navy and they made a huge deal of the fact he could shoot a pistol from the hip. They changed his whole occupation because of that single fact. It's just not something everyone can do.

Then there's the recoil problem. Sure you can probably do it ok with no stress and when you have time to prepare yourself. But shotguns KICK and if you're hands and wrists aren't exactly ready you can break your wrist. And if you're under the huge stress of having a BG in your house that you feel you have to shoot then you're going to be thinking about something besides how you're holding your shotgun.

I've had shotguns put a bruise on me that lasted for weeks and I don't bruise easy. It depends a lot on the person of course but think about your 100 pound wife or your kid trying to shoot a PGO shotgun with 00 buckshot loaded. Do you think they can do it safely? I don't. What if you're not around some day but a BG is? Wouldn't you want your wife or teenage kid to be able to fire that one gun you have to protect your family? Maybe you live alone. Maybe you're not a 250 lb. guy either. Maybe you are a small guy. Bones break and shotguns can do it.

The advantages of a gun with a stock are almost endless. You can aim it much better. If you try to aim a PGO shotgun you're putting your arms in an even worse position. What if you need to make a long shot?

Here's something to try. Pick up a rubber band and shoot it off your finger at something. See if you can shoot from the hip and hit anything at all. Now try it while aiming at eye level. Shooting from the hip just isn't a natural act for many people and holding a shotgun with a PGO can end up hurting you.

At least get a gun with a stock and a PG. That way you have the option of shooting either way. The few inches you save by going PGO is not going to save your life except in very rare situations. Not having to shoot from the hip can definitely save your life. The chances of that being a factor are much higher.

I'll tell you what I did. I bought an 870 Express and I take care of it. It should last for years. I followed Scattergun Bob's advice on updating a few parts and made it a better gun. And I practiced with it until I could have a friend throw up a pop can and I could shoot it twice before it hit the ground. If you can do that you don't need a PGO shotgun.

Caeser2001
July 6, 2008, 12:40 PM
get the mossberg 500 and call it a day, unless you can get an 870 for the same price.

flyby
July 6, 2008, 01:17 PM
Mossy Mav 88 ..nice,reliable,compatible with most mossy 500 upgrades, stocks, barrels ..and can't beat the price...
https://www.rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=G31023
https://www.rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=G31046

Slugthrower
July 6, 2008, 06:50 PM
"Bet you could hit with the pgo if you had an aftermarket laser, or even a very narrow focused beam flashlite, installed on it.", Tom2.

That is provided that you have time to activate the light or the laser and if the batteries haven't gone dead from sitting in storage for a good while. Using a remote switch can help in the activation aspect, however that also causes the shotgun to have wires and protrusions that can possibly hang up on unforeseen obstacles.

It is best to leave all the nice little doo dads off a serious use shotgun or any firearm for that matter. Don't get me wrong, all those accessories are "cool" to play with and use. Relying on them to help save one's life isn't a very good idea, IMO as well as many others for good reason.

The extra compactness that a PGO gains it loses a lot of versatility. It is just as easy to tuck the stock of a regular shotgun under your arm, additionally it still give you the option to shoulder the shotgun for much better accuracy if needed. If you want compactness go with as short a barrel as you can within the legal limits of your area. Some localities will not allow AOWs.

The term in the military that is used quite often is "high speed, low drag" it does have a significant meaning to those in harms way. ;)

Jseime
July 6, 2008, 09:41 PM
The Mossberg 500 is a great gun, I have one and I love it. Never jams never fails to fire just shuck it and shoot it.

I think that a pistol grip is a really cool looking add on and I've never used one so this is just speculation... I think that there is no need for it. At 4 am when something goes bump smash crash you can put the buttstock tight to your shoulder and aim more naturally or i think it would seem more natural for me.

nate45
July 6, 2008, 09:52 PM
a single shot, double barrel, pump, auto, 20, 12, 16 ga. can all be effectively deployed in a home defense situation. The 'best' one is the one you have and know how to use.

Don't believe me watch Clint Smith demonstrate.

Defensive Shotgun (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhgwHQCJwWw&feature=related)

hihosilver
July 12, 2008, 08:27 PM
Basicly, a 12 gage mossberg 500 18", but an auto loader. Does a high capacity 18" autoloader exist?

.351winchester
July 12, 2008, 09:21 PM
You can get a 20 round drum for a 19" Saiga auto or just the 8 and 10 rd. sticks. Anything comparable such as USAS or Street Sweeper is an NFA "destructive device" (classed with mortars, grenades, etc.). This is definately one to get now if you ever want one, more than anything else for legal and cost considerations, I think they stopped importing the 12 gauge too(?)

Otherwise, 7 shots max in a tube mag flush w/ 18" barrel. I believe the long OOP High Standard 10-B full cap held 8 and as a bullpup was still short OAL.

Have you handled the Mossy 930 SPX? That is my favorite shotgun, it's perfect. Basically a FN SLP with a tang safety, half or less the pricetag, and a Swedish massage of a buttpad. Check one out, you'll be bringing her home. I hate ghost rings but these ones showed me the appeal, still personally prefer a bead for HD but seriously this is a lot of combat shotgun for the money in fact I'd take this 550. Mossberg over a Benelli or Wilson any day. But that's me, that magic feel, balance, swing, whatever that people use to describe a British or Italian double, that's how this baby felt to me. You could always get the 930 HS and add a mag extension but by then the price difference would be little. Trust me you'll like the SPX, maybe fall in love like I did. I never considered owning an auto or trusting one for when it counted before but Mossberg hit a grand slam with this little cannon.

From what I've read here from every satisfied owner it probably wouldn't stutter with dove loads and dirty. O.F. Mossberg's past attempts at a full line of automatics came and went without notice but the 930s are serious 11-87 competition.

Do a search for the magazine dump video in this forum to see a bunch of hulls in the air at once. Impressive action to say the least, and proof that it's no slouch. I'll be giving up the 590 (never fired, stock decal still in place) I just bought and some cash for one soon as it comes in to one of the shops I frequent.

Keep in mind the A team shot from the hip all the time and they never hit anyone in years and years of gunfights. That should be a warning too you.
LOL

johnwilliamson062
July 12, 2008, 09:47 PM
Pistol grip shotguns look cool.
I might think about doing one in .410 as a toy.
One in 12 ga, especially with buck shot or slugs, ouch. Bound to hurt somehow.
Maybe I am a wimp (I only shot 3 rounds of trap Thursday and have a hellishly bruised shoulder).

Tatsumi67
July 14, 2008, 12:20 PM
I own two older Winchester shotguns, mostly for trap, and I'm looking into buying a used Remington 870, because you can do whatever you want with them. I have seen a few ranges that dont allow shotguns without a full stock, and with an 870 it can be built for any purpose, hunting, tactical, home defensive, tacticool, or whatever else you want.

John Moses
July 14, 2008, 03:00 PM
I have a Remington 870 and it is a good shotgun.

Having said that, the Mossberg has the safety right on top, I think a more efficient place than on the trigger guard.

BTW
the sound of the working of a pump shotgun is often enough to make grown men lose bladder control. That unique sound has precluded the use of the shotgun on many occasions.

As to whatever stuff you want to put onto it is up to you, but a basic shotgun is a fearsome machine and are incredibly effective at short range. Just look at the guys who burgled Joe Horn's neighbor. Two shots, two dead bad guys.

RangerM9
July 17, 2008, 12:14 AM
Saiga 12's are still being imported, a few have hit dealers lately, shipment is supposedly in country and going out to distributors currently. I hope to confirm soon since i have one on order!

i'm personally not thinking about getting a drum, too big, and too spendy

i also own 870s in 12 and 20. the 12 is a home defense gun, mag extension, but standard wingmaster stock. The 20 is my deer gun, i've hunted with both, and hvae never found 20 ga to be inadequate where i hunt, and it is so much lighter to carry around all day.

Additionally on a whim i picked up and H&R pump parder, essentially a 870 copy, made in China (groan all you want, that thing is better built than my father in laws 870 express!) It is compact, has 5+1 capacity, tapped for a scope rail, swivels installed, all stock configureation, 18 barrel with bead. all that for $140 OTD......can't beat it!

Smitty in CT
July 17, 2008, 10:03 PM
Basicly, a 12 gage mossberg 500 18", but an auto loader. Does a high capacity 18" autoloader exist?

That would be the Mossberg 930SPX, here's my SPX:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/cpg1410/albums/userpics/930SPX_with_sling.jpg

But for HD, I don't need the extra capacity and the SPX doesn't fit in the loc-box without serious mods to the loc-box.... so ... I have my 930 field gun with an 18-1/2" barrel at the ready:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/cpg1410/albums/userpics/side_view_1.JPG

dabigguns357
July 18, 2008, 09:11 PM
34297I agree that you don't need a pistol grip for a shotgun.After firing my mossy i couldn't fathom shooting it with a pistal grip,but then i also use winchester 400 grain platnuim tips along with 3 inch 00 buck.Now on my wifes 410 i have a youth stock on it but thats about it.

Rustynuts
July 18, 2008, 10:05 PM
Basicly, a 12 gage mossberg 500 18", but an auto loader. Does a high capacity 18" autoloader exist?

mmm, I just showed you the Saiga! It's an 19" barrel (close enough!) with a 10-rd mag in my picture. You can also get 20-rd drums for it. If you don't like the 12-g kick, they also make 20 and 410 same style.

Rifleman 173
July 18, 2008, 10:16 PM
I would look around at some pawn shops in your area for a decent but used shotgun. If you take your time, you might just be able to find the shotgun that you want or need in one of those shops. The nice thing is that you can often get a shotgun for less than the asking price of a new one at a pawn shop. Just be very careful and carefully look it over before you buy it. Also try the action to make sure that it doesn't hang up on you.

hihosilver
July 28, 2008, 06:34 PM
Smitty in CT.....the day after I posted that question I saw the Mossy 930 SPX on the outdoor channel. Called my gunstore, but they acted like theyve never seen one, so I just thought they were too new. How do you like that SPX? reliable? Im thinking of going ahead and picking one up, if I can find one or have someone order one. Seems like the ultimate home defense gun to me.

llamaowner
July 28, 2008, 06:36 PM
mossberg 500 w/pistol grip! 00/buckshot loaded (of coarse;))

Smitty in CT
July 30, 2008, 06:16 PM
...How do you like that SPX? reliable? Im thinking of going ahead and picking one up, if I can find one or have someone order one. Seems like the ultimate home defense gun to me.

The reliability of the whole 930 series of shotguns by Mossberg is incredible. The SPX's are getting very hard to find, though..... supply and demand thing...

I think the Home Security / Field combo is a better deal than the SPX is, it's about $100 cheaper and you get the extra barrel....

Juhosaphat
July 31, 2008, 03:41 AM
I personally use a double PG 870 as my primary HD weapon next to my XD9 Service. I can comfortably shoot from the hip and hit targets right around paper plate size out to around 10-15 yards, which is more than enough to put any BG down in my own house. Plus, to me, the recoil is less felt through the double PG's than a full length stock and fore end. That's just my opinion, and it's not shared by many obviously, but it's not for everybody. I just happen to be one of the few.

However, I would never recommend somebody to use a PG or double PG shotgun without a lot of practice first before relying your life on it. Not everybody can control them from the hip or even with a raised sight line. So if you're interested in it, try it out first if possible or just buy the full length stock and start with that.

FSJeeper
July 31, 2008, 08:16 AM
I own a tactical Bennelli, Winchester's , Remingtons, Mossbergs, and have 2 Saiga 12's. They are all very good shotguns and I like them all.

New England Firearms (H&R) is importing a copy of the Remington 870 made in China. They go for $179.00 in Academy. Go to a gun shop, handle all of them, then pick this one up and handle it. You'll see that it is at least equal in quality to the Rem, Moss, and Win. IMO, it is the best value in HD shotguns out there and is the one I recommend to new gun owners looking for a HD weapon. I bought several of them when they were $149.

jackmcmanus21
July 31, 2008, 09:47 AM
thats a good recommendation FS....great price

chickenman
August 1, 2008, 02:49 PM
I saw a post on the GUNS FOR SALE side of this forum...dude in WA is selling an 870 postol grip for $225 FTF.

I got my 870 for $300 and added $300+ worth of parts/sights to it. I found a POS 500 at a fun show for $200. I sold it.

good luck.

akr
August 1, 2008, 04:00 PM
Here's another endorsement for Dave Mc. Just listen to him and you will be alright.

L_Killkenny
August 1, 2008, 05:36 PM
You people who like the pistol grips and the saiga shotguns go ahead and use them. And when the prosecuting attorney flashes it to the jury and you end up in jail I'll send you a nice b-day card (on my b-day, not yours. I'll make sure it has a pic of me at a beach or something).

Get yourself an Rem 870 Express (with an 18" slug barrel), keep it bone stock, learn how to use it and then pray you never need it.

LK

PacoRocks
August 4, 2008, 07:47 PM
The Mossberg 500 is what our troops carry. It must be pretty reliable if we are defending freedom with it

chickenman
August 4, 2008, 07:56 PM
590 I thought....thats becasue they are less $ I would think.

daveydoo
August 4, 2008, 09:38 PM
500 and 590a1 are gov't models. I always like the 590a1 20" model heavy barrel ready for action. It is like the AK of shotguns.

Nnobby45
August 4, 2008, 10:16 PM
The Mossberg 500 is what our troops carry. It must be pretty reliable if we are defending freedom with it

The Mossberg 500 may be a good shotgun, but the reason you gave isn't, in itself, a reliable indicator.

Our troops are defending freedom with piece of garbage after market, cheap, unreliable magazines for the M9-- which won the contract over Sig Sauers' superior P226 largely for policital reasons. Sig isn't a NATO ally whose soil we need for U.S. Air Bases.

Pentagon bureaucrats made the decision to stick with the inferior after market magazines, rather than purchase the good ones from Beretta.

Juhosaphat
August 4, 2008, 10:35 PM
Chickenman wrote:
I saw a post on the GUNS FOR SALE side of this forum...dude in WA is selling an 870 postol grip for $225 FTF.

I got my 870 for $300 and added $300+ worth of parts/sights to it. I found a POS 500 at a fun show for $200. I sold it.

good luck.

It's actually down to 200$ FTF :p Damn good price even with the pistol grips since you can get a decent set of wood furniture for around 40-60$ on the forums. Or just leave the PG's on there for a fun gun at that price lol :p

EDIT: Only TFL is seeing that price too just FYI :)

qwert.380
August 4, 2008, 10:57 PM
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f130/qwert380/12ga.jpg

its a 500 with some goodies

Juhosaphat
August 4, 2008, 11:15 PM
Was never a huge fan of the carbon fiber stocks that they put on some of the 500's. They look alright, but just too light for my liking. Good looking gun you've got there though :)

Rustynuts
August 5, 2008, 05:37 PM
You people who like the pistol grips and the saiga shotguns go ahead and use them. And when the prosecuting attorney flashes it to the jury and you end up in jail I'll send you a nice b-day card (on my b-day, not yours. I'll make sure it has a pic of me at a beach or something).

If it's an iffy shoot maybe, but in castle law states it wouldn't matter. You could blow the BG away with a real cannon if you legally owned it. Wouldn't matter if the cannon was painted black either!

jjyergler
August 5, 2008, 08:21 PM
The Mossberg 500 is what our troops carry. It must be pretty reliable if we are defending freedom with it

Ha Ha, that's a good one. Remember, your life depends on equipment manufactured by the lowest bidder, approved by Pentagon bureaucrats, and purchased by Congress. That's a recepie for success.

Nnobby45
August 5, 2008, 10:09 PM
Quote:
You people who like the pistol grips and the saiga shotguns go ahead and use them. And when the prosecuting attorney flashes it to the jury and you end up in jail I'll send you a nice b-day card (on my b-day, not yours. I'll make sure it has a pic of me at a beach or something).

If it's an iffy shoot maybe, but in castle law states it wouldn't matter. You could blow the BG away with a real cannon if you legally owned it. Wouldn't matter if the cannon was painted black either!

A prosecutor or civil attorney might well use that against you---the evil pistol grip.

But it's the same pistol grip used by SWAT team members to keep one hand free, enbabling them to do other things--like turn lights on/off, shut doors, grab a cell phone, or carry a child to safety. The same as we might have to do.

I'd like to think my attorney is capable of making the case for my choice of weaponry, and for the ammo I might use, as well as defuse any red herring introduced by the opposition.

Nnobby45
August 5, 2008, 10:14 PM
oops. deleted dbl post.

Dave McC
August 6, 2008, 08:13 AM
Let me wade back into this.....

Practically ANY reliable shotgun shorter than 4 feet long makes a wonderful defense tool in trained cool hands.

That last phrase is the key.

We come up short way more than our tools do.

In a crisis, when instantly at a gut level we understand just why they wanted to know who our next of kin is, physical things happen.

Heart rate and strength goes up, vision focusses on what's deem the threat, and fine motor skills tank badly.

If someone is trying to kill you, priorities AND ABILITIES shift. That's why they say combat changes people.

I can't recall the names of all my girlfriends of yore, or those of folks I worked with for years, but every incident that threatened bodily harm to me still comes through like it happened this morn.

As one of the Gun Gurus says, "We descend to our level of training".

The military says that 50% of combat casualties from enemy fire happen during the person's FIRST firefight.

Rather than focus on what shotgun to get or shudder, what bolt ons, try this checklist.....

Am I fully proficent with the weapon?

Can I operate it safely and effectively 15 seconds out of a sound sleep in low or no light when scared?

Can I run my weapon without running it dry?

What's my Plan B?

A few minutes cogitation will bring up other concerns.

A couple training tips....

A set of welder's goggles can imitate low light conditions for those of us with range access only by daylight.

And more than 50% of crises occur after dark.

Running in place before firing a COF spikes the heart rate and simulates adrenalin boost enough to warrant doing this.

Shooting clay games is not only great fun but if shot Low Gun is great practice for getting a good mount quickly. And if you can acquire and neutralize a 4" disc moving on an unknown trajectory at an unknown speed within a second or so, larger, slower closer targets will give you little trouble.

BTW, 4" is about the width of the CNS for much of its length.

HTH....

john1911
August 6, 2008, 05:54 PM
You people who like the pistol grips and the saiga shotguns go ahead and use them. And when the prosecuting attorney flashes it to the jury and you end up in jail I'll send you a nice b-day card (on my b-day, not yours. I'll make sure it has a pic of me at a beach or something).

Get yourself an Rem 870 Express (with an 18" slug barrel), keep it bone stock, learn how to use it and then pray you never need it.


Why take the chance with the 870? Great, great grandaddie's flintlock should be all you need. :rolleyes:

daveydoo
August 6, 2008, 06:25 PM
John whats wrong with BP flintlock with a bayonet lug on it.:D

L_Killkenny
August 6, 2008, 08:16 PM
ya, you're right, a BP shotgun is all 99%(+) of us will ever need for home defence. But they're a pain in the arse and they make the room smell of smoke for days after pluggin someone.

The difference between BP shotty and an 870 is a lot farther apart than the difference between the 870 with factory stock and one with a pistol grip or the Saiga Semi for that matter. Stupid comparison.

You gain practically nothing with pistol grip when it comes to effectivness and I'm not paranoid enough to think I need a Saiga with a drum mag to defend my home.

LK

arizona98tj
August 6, 2008, 11:43 PM
....whats wrong with BP flintlock with a bayonet lug on it.
Not a thing! :D

WacosSon
August 7, 2008, 02:53 AM
ya, you're right, a BP shotgun is all 99%(+) of us will ever need for home defence. But they're a pain in the arse and they make the room smell of smoke for days after pluggin someone.

I would think the room would smell worse from pluggin someone than it would from the smoke.

john1911
August 7, 2008, 09:08 AM
The difference between BP shotty and an 870 is a lot farther apart than the difference between the 870 with factory stock and one with a pistol grip or the Saiga Semi for that matter. Stupid comparison.


What's the difference between a plain Jane 870 and an 870 with a pistol grip? They both cycle the same way and have the same rate of fire. How does that extra plastic make one "bad"?

What's the difference between the Saiga and the 1100? Both are gas operated semi-autos. Does the detachable magazine make the Saiga "evil"? I imagine Chuckie Schumer or Diane Feinstein would say so, but would a gun-owner?

SR420
August 7, 2008, 09:24 AM
Best Home Defense Shotgun

Mine is the HK/Benelli M1 Super 90 with factory pistol grip and ghost ring sights that I purchased brand new in 1993.

http://www.coloradoshooting.org/70%20benelli.jpg

L_Killkenny
August 7, 2008, 12:03 PM
Quote bt John1911:
"Quote:
The difference between BP shotty and an 870 is a lot farther apart than the difference between the 870 with factory stock and one with a pistol grip or the Saiga Semi for that matter. Stupid comparison.

What's the difference between a plain Jane 870 and an 870 with a pistol grip? They both cycle the same way and have the same rate of fire. How does that extra plastic make one "bad"?

What's the difference between the Saiga and the 1100? Both are gas operated semi-autos. Does the detachable magazine make the Saiga "evil"? I imagine Chuckie Schumer or Diane Feinstein would say so, but would a gun-owner?"


I'm a gun owner and will defend anyone's right to buy any firearm they see fit even if I do think it's over the top and unneeded. On the flip side, I will also tell a fellow gun owner when I think certain items are over the top and unneeded. No one here is gonna agree on everything and I'm not gonna try. But these forums would get pretty lame and unnecessary if it's all one sided.

I do think that items such as pistol grips and bayonets are over the top for home defence and do little, if anything, to help a home owner defend their home. These items can have ill effects on you and I in certain cases where the general public becomes involved. Like it or not, it was an effect.

A basic pump gun is a great HD weapon. No reason to add all the Mall Ninja stuff to it.

LK

oneounceload
August 7, 2008, 03:14 PM
The best HD shotgun isn't a shotgun, but a Colt M4, 30 round magazine and a suppressor!, ( with an MP-5 in a close second place).....:D

jdavidboyd
August 7, 2008, 03:29 PM
Here's my home security, a Mossberg 590 Mariner

http://www.adboyd.com/Model590-mariner-600x120.jpg

eldogg4life
August 9, 2008, 02:42 PM
Just to chime in...
I have a Rem870 12g.
I did buy a collapsible stock with pistol grip plus a mag tube extension.
I used to say "a pistol grip belongs on a pistol"
but after shooting my Rem870 with the collapible stock I really like it.
At the end of the day you gotta go to ur gunshop of choice and handle the firearm. You will know which one is The One. Good Luck!!!

cnutco
August 9, 2008, 10:54 PM
+1 for the 870!

2ndchance
August 10, 2008, 04:09 AM
There's been a lot of debate between a Mossy 500 and a Rem 870. But there hasn't been mention about the proper ammo. If I read correctly, the original poster made mention about shooting slugs with a pistol grip shotgun.

Slugs? For home defense? I use game loads with 7-1/2 size shot. Pure devastation at under 15 ft., lighter recoil, and safer then over penetrating slugs.

Oh, BTW. I solved the gun debate years ago. I have both the 870 AND the 500 under my bed. No faster reload than a 2nd gun!

jmr40
August 10, 2008, 05:33 AM
And with #7 1/2 shot you will very likely need that 2nd shotgun for back up. While a lot of the shotguns listed will work fine, my choice is an 870 with 20" IC barrel with rifle sights. Mine shoots slugs into 4"-5" groups at 100 yds and 2" groups at 50 yds. Buckshot patterns are still tight enough to be effictive out to 20-25 yards. Choosing birdshot is a very, very, poor choice. I would only use it if it were all I had and then would suggest the largest shot size available.

akr
August 10, 2008, 10:16 AM
Use #1 buck or #00 buckshot in an HD shotgun.

jjyergler
August 10, 2008, 10:57 AM
Reason #1 Less chance of overpenetration, the importance of which we all
understand.
Reason #2 In short range situations, the pattern expands more quickly
Practically at less than 20 feet, pattern expansion is limited, but
birdshot will do a bit better.
Reason #3 In short range situations, birdshot is a more powerful load. At
short range, the effect of birdshot is similar to a giant Glaser
safety slug. Birdshot has more lead going downrange
than buckshot, as it is more densely loaded.

Jeff F
August 10, 2008, 11:13 AM
In home, bird shot is best.

By far the worst advice when it comes to a defensive load for a shotgun.
Bird shot is for birds, not social use.
Any buckshot from No4 on up is what you want to use when your life is on the line unless its all you have at the time leave the bird shot for the birds.

akr
August 10, 2008, 11:19 AM
jjyergler:

My mistake. I have been listening to experts for years, when I should have just contacted you.

jmr40
August 10, 2008, 12:55 PM
No one in his right mind would ever suggest that birdshot is acceptable to stop a black bear. Yet some people have the mistaken idea that it is acceptable for humans. In reality bears and humans are about the same size, with most weighing between 150-250 lbs. Sure there are bigger bears but you are much more likely to be attacked by a 350 lb man than a 350 lb bear.

Bears are not any tougher or harder to kill tham a typical man. The only advantage they have is a thicker hide. Put a man in even a light jacket and birdshot will be slowed to the point that penetration is severely limited. Put a heavy coat on a man and birdshot may serve to just make him mad. Even buckshot has penetration problems under these conditions.

Unless you know your attackers are going to be 120 lb naked men and you are going to wait until they are at near contact distance to pull the trigger please use buckshot.

Bill DeShivs
August 10, 2008, 01:09 PM
Cops use buckshot because they may be in encounters at DISTANCE.
I will say (for the hundredth time) that buckshot is not necessary at home defense ranges.
I know it's hard for city folks to go out somewhere they can experiment with different shotgun loads, but you really should try it.

jmr40
August 10, 2008, 02:08 PM
What kind of distance are you referring to? Buckshot is highly over rated because of movies and TV. Even buckshot is pretty useless beyond 20-25 yards, and is not legal to hunt with in many places because it is not a reliable and humane way to take even 100 lb deer.

I have hunted nearly 40 years now and have seen first hand what birdshot will do when it hits people and animals. I've known a couple hunters who were hit with birdshot at surprisingly close range that had nasty looking wounds that only penetrated below the skin and never got through muscle. In fact the canvas jackets they wore stopped most of the pellets.

nemoaz
August 10, 2008, 02:58 PM
Why must every thread include a post from the ignorant telling another ignorant newbie to use snakeshot/birdshot?

It is a predictable as the sunrise.

Playboypenguin
August 10, 2008, 03:07 PM
I have the Remington 870 "Home Defender" and I think it fits all of your needs. I paid under $400 for it. I think it was $379 or $389 dollars out the door brand new.

It has the double pistol grips which I find make a pistol grip shotgun much easier to control.

http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/106845000/106845519/pix2358203593.jpg

akr
August 10, 2008, 03:29 PM
Where is Dave McC when we need him? LOL

jjyergler
August 11, 2008, 10:53 AM
The longest possible shot inside my home is about 30 feet. At that distance, birdshot, especially the larger sizes, is devastating. Next range trip, shoot something with birdshot at that range. :D

Jeff F and jmr 40. Why am I wrong? I gave three specific reasons. If I'm wrong, tell us why. I may be wrong, but challenge my reasoning, don't just throw out an ad homenum attack.

OK, I am somewhat incorrect, Buck and Bird are close to equal in power, but Buckshot, at least in these loads, has an edge. These are just random loads I pulled off Federal's website. All are 12ga 2 3/4 in loads.
Federal Shotshell load #H121 437.5gr @ 1290 fps
Federal Buckshot load #F127 484.2gr @ 1325 fps

Federal Shotshell load #H126 546.9gr @ 1330 fps
Federal Buckshot load #F130 645.6gr @ 1290 fps

As for you nemoaz, being called ignorant by you makes me laugh. To what credentials do you point? As I said above, why is my reasoning wrong? If you can argue the point, I will admit my error. If you can't, I'll write you off as just another internet nitwit who uses the anonimity provided by your screen name to write things to which he is afraid to ascribe to his real name.

jjyergler
August 11, 2008, 11:19 AM
I'm guilty of a serious mistake. I chimed in without giving a complete explanation. Many of these discussions are theoretical without reality. A theoretical "ideal" defence load does not exist. A choice of weapon should be based on your situation. This is how you should do it.

Your choice should be based on a tactical evaluation of your home. My house is 1330 sq ft. It is a split ranch, single story. My bedroom is centrally located in the home, with most other rooms connecting to a short hallway (3') where the bedroom is located.

Most of the shots in my house are short range. From my bedroom door to the front door, for example is about 10 feet. From my bedroom door to the back door is about 25 feet. From my bedroom door to the living room window is about 15 feet. From my bedroom door to the kitchen window is about 15 feet. The other two rooms in my home open into the living room, and the doorways to those rooms is about 15 feet from the master bedroom. The entrance to those rooms is around a corner from the rooms, so that 15 feet is the line of sight.

My home is alarmed, and there is a fenced in back yard with two large dogs (100 and 45 lbs, the usually sleep by the back door) The only points of access not fenced in are the front door and living room and kitchen windows. So, in my home, likely ranges for a defensive shooting are 10-15 feet with an extreme range of 25 feet or so. In south Florida, heavily clothed perps are unlikely.

There is one house with children about 20 feet from the outside wall in the kitchen. The back door is in a Florida room with 6' windows surrounding the room. Behind and below my backyard is another home, about 75 feet away.

For these conditions, overpenetration is a concern, especially to the west. The longest likely shot is 15 feet, the longest possible shot is 25 feet. I'll take my chances, and challenge anyone to show me that birdshot is inadequate for that distance.

jjyergler
August 11, 2008, 11:28 AM
Bears are not any tougher or harder to kill tham a typical man.:confused:

Even in Arkansas, our little bears are tougher than people, a 200 lb bear or boar is a much more compact and heavily built animal than a man. While I am confident in my ability to stop a human with a 9mm, I wouldn't even try against a bear unless in extremis.

akr
August 11, 2008, 11:43 AM
He he he he....nothing stirs the pot more than the old birdshot and buckshot subject. :D :eek:

jjyergler
August 11, 2008, 12:03 PM
In a revised tactical evaluation of my home, I noticed my aquarium is only a few feet away from the living room window. I wouldn't want to hurt my fish, so from now on, if I need to defend myself, I'll use my Sig. :D

jmr40
August 11, 2008, 07:57 PM
jjyergler,

The problem with birdshot is lack of penetration. Your anology to the glaser slug is flawed because the glaser slugs are enclosed in a plastic sleeve and do not expand until after they have started to penetrate. At as little as 10 yards a shotgun pattern has several inches of spread. Even more when fired through open bored shotguns normally used for self defense.

While the velocity of the birdshot and buckshot may start out basically the same the birdshot will slow down much quicker, especially after contacting something. While the total weight of the shot in each shell is similar after firing each pellet is own its own. The weight of each buckshot pellet has much more momentum to keep it moving after it hits something.

I have no idea how many animals I've killed in my lifetime, but I have never cleaned a squirrel killed with birdshot that did not have pellets still inside the body. Most were taken between 15 to 20 yards. Do you really want to trust your life to a load that will not give complete penetration through a 1/2 lb squirrel. What if the person you have to shoot is wearing heavy clothes?

I understand your concern for not wanting to endanger others. But, that is really what buckshot is meant for. Police depts use buckshot because it will not travel as far after hitting walls or people. If they need to shoot at any distance over 25 yards they use slugs or rifles. Even with a complete miss the very un-aerodynamic pellets loose velocity much faster and travel less distance than rifle or pistol rounds. If you are uncomfortable with 00 buck then use #4 buck. It is smaller and may be a good compromise for you.

TxGun
August 11, 2008, 10:30 PM
Mossberg has an article in their 2008 Annual that basically says birdshot is absolutely not adequate for home defense, with 7 1/2 shot failing to fully penetrate 2" of mixed meat and bone from a distance of 5 feet! i.e., "Upon closer inspection I discovered that the meat had completely absorbed the majority of the shot. A few tiny pellets had punched through the cardboard around the meat but none passed through. 2" of meat/bone from 5 feet! Pitiful performance. Now even if it was a typo and was meant to be 15', or even 25'. that just isn't good enough.

jjyergler
August 12, 2008, 12:37 AM
jmr,

Your point on #4 is a good one, when I was in the service (Desert Storm) that was the load we trained with when we used shotguns, which was not that often.

I'll try a few shots in a representative sample (beef brisket from Wal Mart) and let you know how it works.

When I have used birdshot on close range targets, it has seemed to function as one single projectile, which was what I was looking for. The squirrel analogy is completely apples and oranges, because you are using a 15-20 yard shot as an example. That is at least twice the greatest possible distance I would be shooting. I too have shot small game at that distance, and have seen the same results.

At five yards, I penetrated a lawnmower hood (sheet metal) and blew up a gallon of water behind it with #1 shot. I also used #1 at about that distance and shredded a 2x4. (I really miss living on the farm in Arkansas. :()Come to think of it, that may be part of the problem, as I have my 870 loaded with #2, and some when they hear birdshot might be thinking #8 or 9.

I'll let you know about the beef brisket. Now, to see if I can borrow my buddy's lawn mower.:D