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Sigma 40 Blaster
June 25, 2008, 01:32 PM
This is a question that my wife asked me this morning, apparently there are movements all over the country to bring OC back in states where it is not already legal. It is a pretty hot topic in Texas among grabbers, enthusiasts and mall ninjas.

So my question is easy, it's in the title of the post. Would you open carry instead of conceal carry in public (not while hunting or in your home)? Yes, No, or It Depends.

If the answer is "It Depends" please expand on the answer. Would it depend on the weather, where you were going, or what you had on that day?

Sorry if this has been done before, I don't recall seeing any polls about this, search results didn't turn up what I was looking for.

MSgt G
June 25, 2008, 01:37 PM
Here you obtain a Georgia Firearms License and you can legally carry either way. Normally I carry concealed, but on occasion I do carry open. Sunday, for example, we went out to eat after church. Since you can't legally carry at church in Georgia, I slipped on my OWB holster afterwards and carried that way. It was too hot to wear my suit coat in the restaurant. No one even gave me a second glance.

Sigma 40 Blaster
June 25, 2008, 01:38 PM
My answer was no. Around the house, even outside doing yard work sure, I have pretty much total control of what goes on around me and who gets close to me.

I'm not saying I think OC is bad as a concept but the practical application of it in public is not something I'd do.

My wife said "Well then just anybody can carry a gun, if it's stolen or not, in public and do whatever they want". I asked her what the difference was between OC and CCW in that regard and she said "Nothing I guess" after a short pause.

I'm interested to see what everyone else thinks.

duucfho
June 25, 2008, 01:43 PM
I think that if Florida allowed open carry, I would likely do so.

I can't see that having an openly visible gun would invite more trouble than if it were concealed, all else being equal.

If someone were to harass/attack me while the gun were concealed, then they might reconsider if they saw the gun first.

But if someone weren't planning to harass/attack me, then I don't see the gun being a catalyst for them to suddenly want to attack me.

hoytinak
June 25, 2008, 01:48 PM
No I wouldn't personally, I'll stick to staying concealed but I think everyone should have the right to carry open if they want to.

ZeSpectre
June 25, 2008, 01:52 PM
My preference is to "play my cards close to the vest". If (God forbid) I should ever have to deal with a badguy I want them to have an abrupt and nasty and above all COMPLETE surprise!

Having said that I did try an open carry experiment a little while back...with no disruption at all.

FrontSight
June 25, 2008, 01:54 PM
I'd rather carry concealed, but with the RIGHT to switch to open carry at any time I feel like it, and not be charged with brandishing. That would make the most sense of all for me.

Oh, and I can't imagine this working on the NYC subway...it's so crowded that at time you can't even hold a magazine up to read it...would be WAY too scary to think of how many thugs would be trying to snatch guns from open carry holsters in that scenario.

Scorch
June 25, 2008, 01:56 PM
When I lived in NV they allowed OC except for in banks, POs, courthouses, or liquor-serving establishments. It was uncommon to see anyone carrying openly, though, because folks were aware of others and if in a public place carried concealed if at all. Lots of pocket guns, though. But every now and again you would see the rancher come in from the range with a wheelgun on (hardly ever a western holster, typically either a OWB or a crossdraw, but some shoulder rigs), or someone carrying a semi in a OWB holster. I think folks are aware of the effect a visible gun has on others, and the inability to control the situation in a crowd. Also, there is the factor of certain types of people not knowing who has the gun that makes them mind their manners.

scoutleader
June 25, 2008, 02:12 PM
I OC from time to time, TN CCP is for hand gun carry permit. They tell you to conceal carry to keep from being bothered by cops and freaking people out. If I am running to the gun range or hardware store ( mom and pop type store) then I wont bother with CC just OP carry. If I am going out to a shopping center or around a lot of people then I CC. I walk the dog every night in our area and OC every night.
Danny

vanguard_anon
June 25, 2008, 02:13 PM
They allow open carry in NC but I wouldn't do it. It catches attention that I don't want. I do see it from time to time though. One guy was about 50 years old and gave off this vibe of, "I really don't have time to care what you think", which was perfect for open carry.

He seemed as casual about his gun as I would be about a knife in my pocket. I looked at it then made an effort to stop staring. It wasn't that big of a deal.

Delaware_Dan
June 25, 2008, 02:31 PM
If I had a job that required me to wear a suit I would open carry and not wear the jacket.

putteral
June 25, 2008, 02:32 PM
I voted yes. I just wish I had the option to open carry if I wanted to but am not allowed here in Florida.

45_Shooter
June 25, 2008, 02:33 PM
I don't like to make myself a target, so I normally don't. However, during hunting season I carry open in the woods, and I normally don't take my sidearm off (usually an N-frame S&W for deer) until I go to bed. I'll go into gas stations and restaurants with it OC'd, simply because it's a pain to swap holsters, and/or pistols just to get lunch or gas. I think thats more accepted though.

David Armstrong
June 25, 2008, 02:34 PM
"It depends" on whether or not concealed carry is a better option. For most situations around the general public I think concealed carry offers the greatest advantage.

Dusty Rivers
June 25, 2008, 02:38 PM
Yes but as inconspicuously as possible.

Wildalaska
June 25, 2008, 02:41 PM
It depends.

If its a sunny warm day and I'm going to the range and shooting a big gun, I just strap it on, and have no compunction about stopping at the Mini mart with it for a coat. I've even picked SWMBO up in downtown Anch open carrying...on the other hand, I'll take it off if I go into Nordstroms.

I see no tactical advantage in open carry and significant political/social disadvantages

WildymmvAlaska ™

Magnum Wheel Man
June 25, 2008, 02:41 PM
if I'm working in the woods, on the farm, & have my GP-100 in a field grade holster on the belt, or if hunting... I'll go to town, without even giving it a 2nd thought... though I carry conceiled 99% of the time...

but I'm honestly not worried about being "made" into a victim... in my area

brickeyee
June 25, 2008, 02:44 PM
In Virginia you MUST OC if you are in a restaurant that serves alcohol.

Kraziken
June 25, 2008, 02:46 PM
One of the aspects of self defense is action beats reaction.

Open Carry you lose the element of surprise. In fact I think it opens you more for possible attack.

I would also worry about being disarmed. I'd rather have a concealed rig with no break or one thumb break than open carry with a level II or III retention holster.

ChicagoTex
June 25, 2008, 02:48 PM
I voted no, concealment has a lot of good surprise value I'm unwilling to compromise.

Furthermore, I realize some folks would be upset with me about this, I oppose the open carry initiative in Texas. My primary reason is if open carry was legalized - as has happened in other open carry states - a lot more businesses would post signs making it illegal to carry on their property entirely. You can ramble all you want about how open carry is a "deterrent to crime" (something that I'm still not genuinely convinced of) but the fact of the matter is there is a substantial portion of people in Texas and in the country who are uncomfortable enough with guns that open carry just means responsible armed citizens in fewer places. How's that a deterrent to crime?

davlandrum
June 25, 2008, 02:51 PM
I went with "it depends". Some places around here would create a scene with an open carry (downtown), but as soon as you get outside the big city, it would be no big deal.

YukonKid
June 25, 2008, 03:08 PM
Yes, I used to open carry my vaquero when I would go to my ranch out in the sticks. Everyone out there is a redneck with a pickup and a gun so I fit right in.

Around town definitely not, it could create many issues.

So i voted "It depends" :)

YK

P99AS9
June 25, 2008, 03:12 PM
Here in NH, you only need a license to concealed carry. Anyone can open carry all they want. I voted no because many people are afraid of guns and will call the cops if they see someone with a gun. I've seen it happen.

Scattergun Bob
June 25, 2008, 03:12 PM
The issue is where are we and why are we carrying openly. We had this discussion not long ago and most did not agree with my thoughts.
1. There must be a overwhelming reason to carry in the open, as this carry method denies the great advantage of surprise. I would not wish to casually throw away such an advantage. Changing public option by open carry is not a good enough reason to loose the advantage of surprise.

2. There is chance that open carry in populated areas will be misinterped by the general public and LE will be called. Most of the time this will be a negative interaction with street level officers, I can not see this as productive.

3. There is a time and place for open carry, and I do so on my long walks in my favorite forest. My expiation is that most will not missinterpret my motives in that environment.

In a nut shell, I concealed carry for my own safety, it is not a public statement, nor am I interested in intervening. I use the element of suprise in my defensive plans. On the street in a urban setting a individual carrying openly would become a focus point for me, I would move away from the individual toward safety, he best not make any mistakes or approach me uninvited.

Good Luck and Be Safe

Van55
June 25, 2008, 03:38 PM
In Virginia you MUST OC if you are in a restaurant that serves alcohol.

That's only true if you want to carry in the restaurant or bar at all. You have the option of disarming.

I am a Virginian and can carry openly, but I don't. I don't need to be hassled by the anti-gun public or targeted by a criminal who would like to "borrow" my gun.

GWbiker
June 25, 2008, 05:32 PM
In Arizona I OC (no permit necessary) or CC (w/CCW permit) as I so choose, which seems to irk some Kalyfornya anti's who drift over the state line!!:p

starshooter231
June 25, 2008, 05:37 PM
I have a Michigan CPL so I generally CC however I do on ocassion OC. It depends on where I am or where I'm going. If I'm traveling around town, I will do both. If I'm traveling to Detroit I will CC. There are some places that you can only OC if you have a CPL, such as a car.

spyderdude
June 25, 2008, 05:42 PM
Would I open carry?

It depends on the weather for me. I have open carried before, and wouldn't hesitate to do it again. I support OC and CC equally, and don't try and convince others that they should carry the way I do, and I expect the same out of others. Unless it is illegal in your state, it's your choice.

B.N.Real
June 25, 2008, 06:29 PM
Yes,but with a compact handgun that was dark colored.

Along the lines with what Dusty Rivers said.

"As inconspicuous as possible."

I have a Taurus Ultralight .38 in dark blue that with a belt holster,you really can't tell it's there.

I don't think I'd try to side holster my Stainless PT101 on my side into town.

It's so bright it looks like it's got LED's in it.:D

If I wanted to carry a semi auto,I have a STAR BM 9mm in blue that is fairly small and does'nt make a big visual impact either.

dabigguns357
June 25, 2008, 07:02 PM
I carry out and cross draw while driving around
(i'm a lefty),but as i get to my destination i'll slip my shirt over it and do my buisness.As for open carry around here,I'd say no.A guy came into a store where i was and while shopping was asked to please leave because he was scaring all the other cotsomers off.I personally didn't see the big deal,it was a great looking sig.:D

Stiofan
June 25, 2008, 07:05 PM
I prefer ccw even when in the back country, but I have no problems OC with a larger gun when hiking or fishing away from population centers. Don't think I'd do so in town though. I'm not into advertising to make a point, personally. That's just me.

O.S.O.K.
June 25, 2008, 07:32 PM
Open carry is good for all of us for one very big reason.

For decades, the establishment media, socialist and liberals have been working hard to ensure that every year, more and more hoplophobes (people that fear guns) are created. They want people to fear them. "oohh a gun... run!"

If people see private citizens with handguns strapped on their belts on a daily or regular basis, they will begin to understand that there is no danger. No more than a man with a knife clipped to his pocket, a worker with a deadly power tool, a person operating a motor vehicle, or a law enforcement officer with a gun.

Open carry is good.

I personally would choose a traditional revolver with no speed loaders - just the 5 or 6 beans. I'd carry it in a nice tooled leather pancake type holster.

In fact, I'd probably carry this one:

http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/medium/HPIM1027.JPG

Wildalaska
June 25, 2008, 07:51 PM
For decades, the establishment media, socialist and liberals have been working hard to ensure that every year, more and more hoplophobes (people that fear guns) are created. They want people to fear them. "oohh a gun... run!"


I'm not a hoplophobe and I, like many others here, don't like open carry in many circumstances.

WildbutheyitsalongstandingdebateAlaska ™

kristop64089
June 25, 2008, 08:29 PM
Missouri is an open carry state, but local municipalities set the bar.
My instructor/ffl/friend OC's on a regular basis. BUT, he also checked with our surrounding localities to see where it was and wasn't ok.

I am indifferent about it. I do open carry, especially during hunting season. My sidearm is always with me. Normally tho, I conceal. I like to blend in at all times, I'd rather noone know what I have or don't have. But I really don't have a problem with it either way, unless it's done in poor judgement.

Sigma 40 Blaster
June 25, 2008, 08:38 PM
It looks like the Yes and It Depends are neck and neck while No is the minority.

I should have been more clear in that I support the right for an individual to open carry if they want, I just wouldn't in public. Again, around the house or a trip to the gas station or something...sure but Walmart, Books a million, or the mall? No way.

Thanks for the ideas and civility. I am surprised that so many states already allow (or should I say don't disallow) open carry.

orionengnr
June 25, 2008, 08:38 PM
I'd probably do it on occasion, but would likely stick with concealed for the most part.

Sure would be nice to have the option; at least we are now discussing it here in Texas.

alabaster
June 25, 2008, 08:58 PM
I don't but I would if the cops wouldn't get all uptight about it. I think it's illegal too if you have a CCW. Not sure about that part though.

jdtoyou
June 25, 2008, 09:10 PM
If I had a job that required me to wear a suit I would open carry and not wear the jacket.

I'm thinking about doing this as I wear a suit or nice trousers most of the time for work and don't want to have to alter 15-20 pairs of pants to fit my IWB holster. I would probabaly look like a detective or fed so I wouldn't worry too much about getting hasled too much by police.

djmyers
June 25, 2008, 09:12 PM
Since WA State is a OC State I do OC in warmer months as it gives me another option on how to carry. When I OC I put little thought into my attire so imho it is a nice choice to have. In the winter months I will of course cover up and CC.

Dave

ChicagoTex
June 25, 2008, 09:12 PM
The only practical advantage I see to being able to open carry legally for me are
1. If someone spots my gun while I'm bending over or something it's not a problem.
and 2. I could carry bigger guns and just opt for "casual concealment" if I wanted to (a lot of cops do this).

bobn
June 25, 2008, 09:32 PM
definately not....only time open carry makes sense to me is on the range, hunting, camping, hiking etc. however i respect your right to do so. bobn

Keltyke
June 25, 2008, 09:39 PM
Open carry? I'd much prefer that over concealed - much easier. I used to live in NC where open carry is legal, and I often did.

Majic
June 25, 2008, 10:19 PM
One of the aspects of self defense is action beats reaction.
If it's self defense then it's already reaction.
I voted yes and have done so.

JohnKSa
June 25, 2008, 11:40 PM
Not legal here but it would be rare that I would do so even if I could. I like being able to control who knows I carry. In fact, I like being able to control who knows I own guns.

I also like the fact that carrying concealed allows me to decide when/if I want to respond in a situation. Carrying openly doesn't really give you that option.

rampage841512
June 25, 2008, 11:42 PM
Yes, I would.

mellow_c
June 26, 2008, 02:24 AM
http://www.opencarry.org/


I'm with O.S.O.K!!!

I voted yes... I live in Colorado, and I have open carried about 4-5 times. I've just started. If I'm going out to lunch with my gf, or going to run errands. I've OC'd in Taco Bell, Wal-Mart, While getting gas, And while Riding my motorcycle. I live in a front range city of about 80,000 people. While OCing no one seams to be bothered by it. I've had a few people looking at me for a while while I was eating, and a few people at Wal-Mart glance my way. But no one Jumps and says "Oh no a gun!" Some times I tuck in my shirt, some times I leave it un-tucked and just pull up my shirt where the holster is to OC.

I've been carrying my grandpas old Ruger Mark II .22. Not exactly the most effective of my pistols, but it's flat, and comfortable, and I'm obviously very proficient with it.

My biggest reason for OCing is simply to exercise my rights. If you dont use it, you will eventually lose it. And thats obviously the case with OC. If everyone stops OCing because they would rather CCW, OC will eventually be outlawed because, "it makes people uncomfortable". And then after enough time, people will do away with any type of legal cary of a firearm, claiming that it's the Police's job to protect us, and "they are the only ones who know how to use guns":eek: It's already headed that direction. Sure There are places where you can CCW but cant OC. Like in Denver, it is illegal to OC, but I dont have a CCW permit yet, so I cant carry there either way. But I can legally OC just about anywhere else in Colorado, with the exceptions of one other anti OC town, and certain buildings and "Gun free Zones"

I called a Police station once to ask about the laws of transporting a hand gun in a bag while on my motorcycle. I ended up talking to the Commander. I already knew OC was leagal, but I decided to ask him about it. He said "You shouldent do that" I said "But I can though, right?" He said "Well, there is a law that if you have a gun out in the open, and it causes a disturbance, thats illegal" I said, "I know, it's called brandishing a weapon, and I have to make a threat or take it out of the holster for a reason other than self protection to be illegal, right?" He said, "Well, you can get a CCW if you want to carry" I said "well I'd like to do that some day, but for now I can open carry if I would like, right?" He said "I wouldent suggest it" LOL... I was very disappointed in my conversation with him. I was surprised at how hard he tried to "imply" that OCing is not legal, yet would not come out and say it, because he knew very well that OC is infact, Perfectly legal. But his reluctance to admit so is just more evidence as to how close we are to OCing being voted away.

Anyway. Open carry is not a bad thing. I highly doubt there are many criminals that will see you carrying your pistol and rush up and try to take it from you, although, it could happen, and I'm sure the risks will be higher depending on where you are OCing. But Over all, OCing is one of our basic rights, and I chose to exercise it.

Also, if Open Carry is legal where you live, but you dont yet have a CCW permit, then why not OC? When people talk about .45 acp being the best carry gun, but they they admit that a .22 is still better than nothing. It fits in well with the idea of OCing being better than not carrying at all. I dont think that OCing makes you a target, it is much more of a deterrent. Someone brought up recently the fact that (statistics of a survey given to criminals in prison) Basically ALL criminals search out for a week looking individual or small group to pray on. I dont see how someone OCing will radiate the appearance of a week victim

ChicagoTex
June 26, 2008, 03:43 AM
In fact, I like being able to control who knows I own guns.

big plus one on that John. Only my family and close trusted friends know I own guns, I figure the more people know, the more likely I am to get burglarized for my guns.

Sigma 40 Blaster
June 26, 2008, 06:49 AM
mellow_c,

I don't think people are saying that OC is a sign of weakness, I think most say that it strips you as a potential victim of your most valuable tactical advantage, Surprise.

Picture something other than a one on one mugging, like a gas station hold up. 2-3 guys enter, see you with a gun on your hip while they are casing it, you are their primary threat to deal with upon entering to take care of business. So instead of being a sheep in disguise these guys see you are a wolf and will deal with you as a wolf.

The positive side is they may not even bother coming back to handle business.

As a concealed weapons holder, like John said, you have the decision of when and if to respond with your weapon. You can wait for your moment of "surprise" or decide not to act if they just clean the register and leave.

It's a double edged sword but I still think it's an individual's right to decide.

threegun
June 26, 2008, 07:35 AM
I openly carry at work. I manage a pawn shop and we want maximum deterrence to prevent an attack. So far it has worked with zero robberies attempts in 20 plus years while shops located within blocks of ours are robbed regularly at gunpoint. Heres the catch there are usually three of us openly carrying. To take us they will have to use lots of force. If I was solo or while out on the town I carry concealed. This gives me surprise since I don't have friends to back me up.

Its not hard in a public place to get the drop on someone. Standing in line with others etc. I could simply get close enough and punch someone openly carrying then take their gun. Very few humans can with stand a powerful strike to the head without getting rocked especially from someone who knows how to punch. I think openly carrying would increase my potential of attracting trouble.

Billy Sparks
June 26, 2008, 07:42 AM
Altough I don't begrudge anyone's desire to do so I would not. The reason is simple, I don't want to advertise I have a gun. Example you are the local quickie mart, you know the ones that have floor to glass ceilings along the front, local creatin decides to rob it but he can see you inside before you see him. Therefore he decides to just come in and shot you first. I know several people will take me to task in that I should be "aware" but you cannot be 100% vigilant every second and go about your life.

Buzzard
June 26, 2008, 07:56 AM
I voted "YES" as I open carry on a daily basis, but I live in AZ where open carry is legal and here in Kingman it is not uncommon to see open carry at wal-mart and other local stores. I do get some interesting looks as I ride my "street legal" quad down the road and tourists see me .
Never had a hassel for open carry here in Kingman not in 3 years.
I am waiting for my CCW to be approved but until then.....Yep, I open carry

IGO1320
June 26, 2008, 08:14 AM
I do not open carry because it is not legal in Florida. Would I? Depends if there were other people even 8-10% I probably would, I do not want to "stick out". I believe open carry helps to prevent crime, most "common" criminals are cowards and run when confronted. I don't believe the argument that criminals would just "target me and take my gun", if this were the case why not just take any "cop's" gun they happened upon? Why not "roam" the streets in armed gangs and rob everyone they come upon? The answer is they are afraid/know they would be confronted by police or someone armed and they would be harmed. There are instances where this has occured but very rarely....and that is the criminal that will not run.....normally drugged/crazy. I truly believe that an armed society is a polite society. Have a nice day.

crucible
June 26, 2008, 08:17 AM
I'm a grey man, so no open carry for me (unless in some very rare circumstances).

ATW525
June 26, 2008, 08:37 AM
In New Hampshire I can carry openly all I want, but I choose to carry concealed. Why? Because when I go out in public it's usually for a specific purpose, with a destination that is likely a privately owned business establishment of some sort. Given that the property rights of business owners to exclude firearms on their premises trump my right to carry them, it's just good sense to avoid that conflict altogether with proper concealed carry. After all, what they don't know probably won't hurt them. ;)

Don P
June 26, 2008, 08:58 AM
IMO absolutely not. All you are asking for is all the village idiots out there in tin foil land wanting to try there hand at the bad ass with the gun on his/her side:eek:. Just my personal feelings on open carry:barf:. If they are willing to shoot at LE what would they do to John Q public. This aint 1860 and Dodge City or any other famous or not so famous western town. I think you are only asking the tin foils does he have the brass to use it?:cool:

duucfho
June 26, 2008, 09:10 AM
IMO absolutely not. All you are asking for is all the village idiots out there in tin foil land wanting to try there hand at the bad ass with the gun on his/her side. Just my personal feelings on open carry. If they are willing to shoot at LE what would they do to John Q public. This aint 1860 and Dodge City or any other famous or not so famous western town. I think you are only asking the tin foils does he have the brass to use it?

This is assuming that licenses are not needed for Open Carry, which is true for about half the open carry states in my eyeball estimate:
http://opencarry.org/opencarry.html
But the other half require a permit...

I'd personally be a fan of Open Carry with a permit. I don't know if this goes against the spirit of OC, but it would help weed out some of the tin-foil crazies you speak of, no?

Billy Sparks
June 26, 2008, 11:19 AM
I don't believe the argument that criminals would just "target me and take my gun", if this were the case why not just take any "cop's" gun they happened upon?

In case you were referring to my post. I don't think they want my gun I just don't want them to confuse me for a LEO and shoot me first to remove any known opposition.

chubbmann
June 26, 2008, 11:27 AM
Here in Louisiana our cars are an extension of our homes so keeping one in the glove box is fine so long as it is not chambered. Our carry laws are non existant. I called the office in Baton Rouge and was told that there was nothing on the books forbiding it so it's left to my judgment. She added though that that implied to do so in a responsible manner as it is up to any citizen to call the police they feel threatened.

Basicly I am a PI and do some face to face visits. I was very happy to learn my rights to carry so long as I am not an idiot about it. God bless the USA!!!

.300H&H
June 26, 2008, 11:46 AM
Why open carry when you can carry concealed? Concealed carry has all the tactical advantage. The only time I open carry is 1) in the outdoors in a hunting /camping situation and 2)going directly to the range<and then only on occasion out of convenience>


Lot of 'nuts' out there. I don't want to get in a verbal dispute with one - and then have him call the police and make up some wild story about me and my gun. If I'm carrying concealed I can defend myself, and I don't have to worry so much about defending my open carry of a 'gun.' Some folks out there are not just 'anti-gun' but really hysterical about guns.


Think of all the scenarios: 1)What if I'm in a fender bender and I get out of my car...and the 'nut' that has hit my car see's my open carry gun and starts yapping some false story about me being a threat? 2)What if I have to go to some business and the manager calls security? Too much hassle. When its concealed, I have more control and options.

pax
June 26, 2008, 11:52 AM
Open carry is legal in my state, and I live in a rural area where nobody would blink at it.

It's definitely more comfy to carry openly than concealed.

And I think there's a political advantage in treating a sidearm as if it is just a normal part of your clothing, not some hyper-scary testosteronized terrifying monstrosity.

Nevertheless. I've never open carried, and don't intend to.

I do draw a great deal of comfort in knowing that I am legally in good shape if my cover garment rides up.

pax

r.smitty
June 26, 2008, 12:34 PM
After a day of atv'ing in the mountains my wife and I stopped at the Burger King in Salida Colorado just to get a quick bite. I had my 1911 on my side. A customer in line in front of us kept looking back at me and after he got his order he came back and with a very unfriendly tone said "Why you wearin' a gun in here?". I politely replied that it was my right and it wasn't against the law. "Well I don't like it" he said. He then walked away. If I had been a little quicker I would have said "Because there are people in here wearing backpacks (as he was) and I don't know what they might be carrying.

Wildalaska
June 26, 2008, 12:59 PM
I politely replied that it was my right and it wasn't against the law.

See now I would have replied that I just left the field, was hungry and didnt feel like leaving it it my car. To his reply that he didnt like it I would have given him the famous:

"Well dude, filling my tummy fast takes precedence over your feelings, and if you are so upset, go to Mickey D's"

Don't get me wrong boys and girls...my disdain for those who want to teach the "sheeple" a lesson is equal to my disdain to those who want to shove their anti gun feelings in my face. I think open carry is inappropriate and smacks of ramboism under many circumstances, but you know what, its equally as inappropriate to voice my views to someone who is doing something lawful.

WAs Rule of Life 67.78 (a).....A person who publicly chastises another for acting, albiet lawfully, like an a*****e is equally an a******e.

Thats why I try to avoid leftist political rallies, to keep my inner sphincter under control :)


WildburguerkingAlaska

Keltyke
June 26, 2008, 01:26 PM
Given that the property rights of business owners to exclude firearms on their premises trump my right to carry them, it's just good sense to avoid that conflict altogether with proper concealed carry. After all, what they don't know probably won't hurt them.

Until you get caught and give the people who obey the laws and rights of others a bad name.

As you said, their right to refuse your gun supersedes your right to carry it.

Respect other's rights and wishes. If a store manager, owner, or employee objects to your gun, go out, remove it and re-enter the store or QUIETLY leave. Don't make a big fuss about it, you WILL lose and you'll give everyone else who carries a black eye. If a private individual objects, tell him to consult the manager of the place where you are. Deflect his objections to you personally and avoid a conflict at all costs.

ATW525
June 26, 2008, 02:06 PM
Until you get caught and give the people who obey the laws and rights of others a bad name.

As you said, their right to refuse your gun supersedes your right to carry it.

Respect other's rights and wishes. If a store manager, owner, or employee objects to your gun, go out, remove it and re-enter the store or QUIETLY leave. Don't make a big fuss about it, you WILL lose and you'll give everyone else who carries a black eye. If a private individual objects, tell him to consult the manager of the place where you are. Deflect his objections to you personally and avoid a conflict at all costs.

The point is that the store manager is never put into a position to object in the first place, because it's concealed. However, the store manager is welcome to preemptively post his desire to not have firearms present, and I'll gladly take my business elsewhere because I'd rather not patronize a place that is openly hostile to concealed carry.

I'm not sure where you get off insinuating that I give firearms owners a bad name, but I find it insulting and I do not appreciate it.

hkg3
June 26, 2008, 06:17 PM
Yes, been there, done that (in Arizona). However, I don’t open carry all the time. I believe there was someone here who open carried in to the bank, said he usually got strange looks.

94bluerat
June 26, 2008, 06:22 PM
In SC we OC when hbunting. When we go to NC we OC all the time at the mountain house, 4 wheelin, camping etc.

mjoy64
June 26, 2008, 07:24 PM
Only my family and close trusted friends know I own guns, I figure the more people know, the more likely I am to get burglarized for my guns.


You know... I don't agree with many of the cons presented here against OC, but this is an argument that has merit. It wouldn't prevent me, but it does give me pause.

mjoy64
June 26, 2008, 07:30 PM
I also like the fact that carrying concealed allows me to decide when/if I want to respond in a situation. Carrying openly doesn't really give you that option.


Can you give an example here (preferably something that really happened)? I just don't see the difference in the decision process. Either you are in mortal danger and require the use of your firearm, or you are not.

Keltyke
June 26, 2008, 09:20 PM
I'm not sure where you get off insinuating that I give firearms owners a bad name, but I find it insulting and I do not appreciate it.

No insinuation, statement of fact. I "got off" saying what I did from YOUR statement that you would carry concealed into a store where it was expressly forbidden, regardless of the law or store manager's wishes.

I'll quote you again, in case you forgot what you wrote.


Given that the property rights of business owners to exclude firearms on their premises trump my right to carry them, it's just good sense to avoid that conflict altogether with proper concealed carry. After all, what they don't know probably won't hurt them.

As for your appreciation of my remarks, that is completely irrelevant to me.

ATW525
June 26, 2008, 09:49 PM
No insinuation, statement of fact. I "got off" saying what I did from YOUR statement that you would carry concealed into a store where it was expressly forbidden, regardless of the law or store manager's wishes.

I'll quote you again, in case you forgot what you wrote.



As for your appreciation of my remarks, that is completely irrelevant to me.

Not what I said at all. Please go back and look for where I advocated breaking the or carrying against the express wishes of the property owner... I did not. I stated that concealed carry avoids the conflict with property rights. It's simple, firearms aren't usually a big issue on the mind of most business owners, and I prefer to keep it that way by keeping them out of sight so they don't decide they need a policy against them.

As for your attitude and insults, they are unwelcome and all you've accomplished is earning yourself a place on my ignore list from this point forward. It's unfortunate that people can't conduct themselves in a civilized and respectful manner in an online community.

GPossenti
June 26, 2008, 10:59 PM
It's rather expensive here in Louisiana to take the class and get a 4 year license (around $250, $500 for both my wife and I). I'm having to open carry until I can save the money for the license.

JohnKSa
June 26, 2008, 11:09 PM
Can you give an example here (preferably something that really happened)? I just don't see the difference in the decision process. Either you are in mortal danger and require the use of your firearm, or you are not.You're kidding right? You really can't conceive of a realistic situation where it might be to your advantage to have a firearm that a criminal doesn't know about?

One excellent example was posted awhile back.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=60164&highlight=range+display+case+glass&page=2

An man went into a gun store/gun range and took all the employees hostage using a gun he rented at the range. None were carrying openly, but one employee was carrying concealed and the criminal didn't discover it. The criminal was taking them out back and made it clear that he was going to shoot them. The armed employee bided his time and when he got an opportunity he was able to pull his firearm and disable the criminal with no injury to any of the employees. Had he been carrying openly he would have been forced to respond immediately or he would have been disarmed.

"After several minutes on the range, however, Stevens returned to the club's gun store and shot at the ceiling. He then herded three store employees out the door into an alley, saying he intended to kill them, Morec said.

Unknown to Stevens, one store employee was carrying a .45 caliber handgun concealed beneath his shirt. When Stevens looked away, the employee fired, hitting Stevens several times in the chest and bringing him to the ground."
In another example (go here (http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/labels/kidnapping.html) and search on Peebles), a doctor and his wife were kidnapped and forced to drive a criminal to Mexico. Unbeknownst to the criminal, they had a concealed pistol. The doctor was able to retrieve the pistol and take the criminal by surprise ending the scenario, but not until they had crossed at least one state line. Again, had they been openly armed instead of armed with a concealed gun they would have had to respond immediately or they would have simply been disarmed.

Here are some more. Go here (http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/labels/kidnapping.html) and read about Jacob Evans who waited for the right moment to pull his hidden handgun. Search that site for "John Brimmer" to read of another concealed carrier who waited for the right moment to respond but who would certainly have been forced to respond immediately or be disarmed otherwise had he carried openly.

I find it pretty surprising (just about incredible, in fact) that it's necessary to defend the idea that having an "ace in the hole" could be an advantage.

mjoy64
June 27, 2008, 07:31 AM
I also like the fact that carrying concealed allows me to decide when/if I want to respond in a situation. Carrying openly doesn't really give you that option.

I find it pretty surprising (just about incredible, in fact) that it's necessary to defend the idea that having an "ace in the hole" could be an advantage.

Clearly there are some cases where concealed carry would be an advantage. If you had phrased your opinion around the *potential* tatical advantage of conceal carry, I wouldn't have asked the question.

I see what you meant now. Your statement is oriented around conceal carry allowing greater latitude in "when/if" you respond. I get the "when" now (after reading your examples), but focused on the "if". To me the "if" part seems cut and dried unaffected by concealed vs. open carry.

obxned
June 27, 2008, 10:22 AM
Depends. I have open carried in many placed when going to and from hunting or fishing.

For daily carry, I prefer concealed. You don't spook the sheep, you have the element of surprise if there is a 'problem', and it just seems more polite (although there is no real logic to that last).

Threefeathers
June 27, 2008, 10:47 AM
Just once in a while I will open carry one of my custom handguns, usually a ivory handled colt Single Action handgun.

Beansie_Time
June 29, 2008, 08:18 PM
I answered yes because I have open carried....but very rarely as I prefer people not know I'm carrying.

Stevie-Ray
June 30, 2008, 12:55 AM
I voted yes, because if it were fashionable in Michigan, there would be times when it would be a lot more comfortable. Biking, for example. In a way, I open carry when doing that now, but a safety vest mostly covers it at night. If I biked in the daytime, you'd probably be able to see the G26 through the holes in the vest. There are other times when I definitely would.

Keltyke
June 30, 2008, 06:06 AM
The advantage to concealed carry is surprise. The down-side is it's slower to bring into play.

The advantage of open carry is it sends a message to the perp, "If you want me, you're gonna have to work for it." The disadvantage is some people may object to a gun right next to them in a restaurant.

GPossenti
June 30, 2008, 08:37 AM
I open carried for the first time last night. My wife and I took the dog for a walk around the neighborhood. We passed some neighbors and ten minutes later saw a police car zoom down our street as we approached from a cross street.

We kept walking.

seeker_two
June 30, 2008, 05:51 PM
It depends.....on what "open carry" and "concealed carry" are defined as.....

I see "open carry" as a way to wedge out the CHL permit (and cost to exercise a SCOTUS-affirmed RKBA) system and have a Vermont-style carry (concealed or open) in Texas. After all...if you're carrying concealed & no one sees it, no biggie. If it's exposed, it's now open carry.... ;)

.300H&H
July 4, 2008, 02:04 AM
I wouldn't open carry to the new job interview!:D

I wouldn't open carry on a blind date.:rolleyes:

I wouldn't open carry to the prom.

I wouldn't open carry to the policeman's ball.

There's a lot of places I'd wouldn't want to open carry.

So much in life is unpredictable, I prefer to not handicap myself even moreso by openly carrying a firearm.

Yellowfin
July 4, 2008, 02:49 AM
It's a means to an end, just like a tool in the toolbox: works for when it's applicable, useless when it doesn't fit. If I don't have a CCW that works where I am but can OC there, you bet your kiester I'm OC'ing because given the choice between OC or leave it at home it'll be OC every time.

BikerRN
July 4, 2008, 12:44 PM
I voted "it depends" but for me I really can't see a reason to Open Carry.

The reason I like Open Carry is because it makes "printing" less of a legal issue, not because I like to carry a gun in the open. It's been my expirience that people from Texas and Florida are almost paranoid about "printing". Of course Open Carry is illegal there. People in AZ and GA don't care so much about "printing" because Open Carry is legal there.

That's my $0.02.

Biker

MeekAndMild
July 4, 2008, 01:02 PM
I answered that it depends. I don't open carry where I think the practice could be construed as being impolite.

Frank Ettin
July 4, 2008, 01:08 PM
When I can legally carry, I much prefer to conceal my weapon. I think that my being armed is no one's business, and I also think that not advertising the fact gives me a tactical advantage. I may carry openly, where legal, if I'm out in the country. Also, if I'm somewhere open carry is legal, I'm not going to go though contortions to hide my roscoe if I'm getting out of the car to pump gas or the like.

freakshow10mm
July 4, 2008, 01:18 PM
Yes and I do open carry.

Sixer
July 4, 2008, 01:45 PM
It is legal here in Missouri but OC is not something I would want to practice on a regular basis. I don't think I would make it too far walking into Wal-Mart, the mall, Target, any restaurant, etc. with a gun on my belt. Even though it may be legal, the hassle you may run into @ most public places would not be worth it. I would rather keep it concealed for the most part.

On the other hand, if its late and I need to run an errand or something, I would definitely consider OC. I dont buy into the "compromising the element of surprise" bit regarding CCW. Im not looking to surprise a would be criminal by pulling a gun from under my shirt. I would rather have it in clear view for any BG's to see. Why wait for a situation that requires you to "reveal" your firearm (surprise!). If that situation could be avoided by simply having it in plain sight, without making anyone else nervous or suspicious, then I am all for it.

Basically, keep it hidden during my normal daytime activities and keep it visible after dark.

huchahuchax
July 4, 2008, 01:50 PM
I voted yes, but the more I think about it I guess it depends. I work on a military base, so I can't carry at all throughout most of the day. I have a concealed carry permit, but don't carry as often as people think I do - so I can see the advantages of concealed carry. But I must admit that if open carry was an option for me then I probably would carry at every chance - most likely a variation of concealed carry (gun covered but printing like crazy!). However, it would be a real temptation for me not to get a gunslingers holster and have a single action .45LC hanging low on my hip during the most inappropriate occasions. What can I say, that is just the way my sense of humor runs.

CajunBass
July 4, 2008, 02:02 PM
Yep. I do all the time. Nobody has ever said anything but "Can I do that too?" Or something along those lines.

JohnKSa
July 4, 2008, 03:06 PM
Im not looking to surprise a would be criminal by pulling a gun from under my shirt. I would rather have it in clear view for any BG's to see. Why wait for a situation that requires you to "reveal" your firearm (surprise!). If that situation could be avoided by simply having it in plain sight, without making anyone else nervous or suspicious, then I am all for it.You may not buy it, but there have been real world situations where the ability to choose the time/place to respond has made a difference. I listed several on page 3 (post #72) of this thread.

huchahuchax
July 4, 2008, 03:13 PM
I buy it. There are X-factors with everything though. It would be interesting to see the statistics of how many crimes were delayed in open carry states, where the silly SOB with cowboy gun hanging off his hip was allowed to leave before the crime was committed :p

hogdogs
July 4, 2008, 03:16 PM
If I could in florida I would and likely everywhere I went.
Brent

JohnKSa
July 4, 2008, 03:24 PM
It would be interesting to see the statistics of how many crimes were delayed in open carry states, where the silly SOB with cowboy gun hanging off his hip was allowed to leave before the crime was committedEven if you could find statistics like this, they would actually prove that OC doesn't prevent crime, it only postpones it. The reason you won't find statistics on OC crime prevention is that a miniscule percentage of the population OCs, even where it's legal. Not nearly enough to generate any useful statistics.

huchahuchax
July 4, 2008, 04:40 PM
Indeed. But I have to question whether it is the roll of the gun carrier to fight crime. I would argue that once the general public learns that flashing a gun will delay the gun crime until no guns are present, everyone will start carrying guns. This is becoming a cliche, but look at Israel. Israel has some really horrendous crimes: suicide bombings and missle attacks. You rarely hear about gun fights though, because to start a gun fight in Israel is just a damned silly way to commit suicide. Soldiers carry automatic weapons while off duty and over half the population has had firearm training.
I don't want to see the U.S. get to the point where suicide bombing is commonplace, but I don't know if it is so bad to have law abiding citizens flexxing their muscles by showing their guns at least as much as the bad guys show theirs.

Sixer
July 5, 2008, 02:00 AM
Even if you could find statistics like this, they would actually prove that OC doesn't prevent crime, it only postpones it.

I'm ok with that. Criminals are going to commit crimes, thats what they do. If I can postpone a crime by having a firearm visible, and it keeps me out of a bad situation, I would consider that a success.

Lets say Im in a parking garage, late at night, walking to my car. To a BG Im just a regular joe whom he might consider a target. What he doesnt know is that Im carrying a concealed firearm. In order for him to find this out I would have to be in a life threatening situation. Not to sound like a wuss, but I would like to avoid any life threatening situations whenever possible!

If that BG were to see that same regular joe, with a big gun, in a parking garage, he might decide to pick a different target. Life threatening situation avoided:D

I personally dont open carry, but more times than not I think you would be better off having your weapon visible as to discourage any potential BG's. That being said, I definitely see certain situations where the element of surprise could be key.

So what is the best solution? Simple... one on the belt and one in the boot. Best of both worlds. If your OC gun is not enough of a deterrent or gets taken, you still have the element of surprise on your side. 2 = 1 and 1 = none.. or something like that:)

FLA2760
July 5, 2008, 05:16 PM
JohnKSa wrote,"Not legal here but it would be rare that I would do so even if I could. I like being able to control who knows I carry. In fact, I like being able to control who knows I own guns".

A BIG +1 to that.
However I voted "it depends". The reason being that OC is illegal here in Florida and although I will continue to CCW it would be nice if any part of my gun inadvertently became visible that I would not lose my CCW. ;)

gunsrtools
July 5, 2008, 06:02 PM
One reason to carry open is:

If we do not exercise our rights..we will lose them.

so, if your state allows open carry....would be good to occasionally do so.

Bob in NH

JayCee
July 5, 2008, 08:30 PM
Probably not, but I don't like to be told I can't...:(

thomp830
July 6, 2008, 11:05 AM
I think the obvious plan would be

1) Carry open around your own farm/ranch/hunting, etc...

2) Carry concealed in public. Remember, you want the element of surprise. The first guy to be shot in a bank robbery will be the one wearing a gun on his hip- since he's the obvious danger to the robbers.

There's a nostalgic, romantic image to carrying open/cowboy style- but until everyone else is doing it you will look like a threat the rest of the people (who will be calling 911 everytime they see you with a gun). It also lets the bad guys know that
a) you are a danger and they must deal with YOU first.
and b) you have a gun that they can take (after they kill you)
Don't think that you can shoot the bad guy before he can shoot you. I don't care how good you might be with your gun! Don't forget, he already knows that he's going to shoot you. He will plan out his attack and you will never see it coming. He will have the jump on you and you'll never get your gun out. On the other hand, if he doesn't even know that you're armed- YOU have the jump on HIM. The best plan is to be a hidden danger.

novaDAK
July 6, 2008, 11:22 AM
I voted yes, because Open Carry is my only option if I want to be armed. I'm in that awkward age, old enough to own a handgun but not old enough to get a CHP in my state. When I turn 21 I will get my CHP, and carry concealed or openly depending on when/where I am.

Whether you like OC or not, gun owners should support every mode of carry. People who support CC and not OC are no different than 'hunters' who don't care what gun control laws are passes as long as they can have their single-shot rifle or shotgun with their 'permits' to do so.

Gun owners need to stick together...if we don't, we can kiss our gun rights goodbye....just look at what happened in the UK.

absolute0
July 6, 2008, 06:08 PM
Where it's legal...you betcha (Minnesota accent in play).

When it's convenient and/or expedient I have no qualms about carrying my six gun out on my hip.

For day to day carry I think most would agree that concealed is preferred for multiple reasons.

Keltyke
July 6, 2008, 06:27 PM
There's a nostalgic, romantic image to carrying open/cowboy style- but until everyone else is doing it you will look like a threat the rest of the people (who will be calling 911 everytime they see you with a gun).

Not for me. It's simply a matter of ease and comfort. It's a LOT easier to not have to worry about concealment and use a comfortable OWB/belt slide/yaqui/paddle holster for your weapon. I believe 8 out of 10 people will (wrongly) assume you're some type of LEO and ignore you. One will be a BG who will take one look at your weapon and turn the other way. BGs like EASY targets, not dealing with armed citizens. The 10th one is the guy who, because of an inflated sense of self-importance and the notion that his ideas are the law of the land, will want to make a scene. Best thing to do here is ignore him, and politely and quietly handle any meeting with store managers or LEOs called to investigate you. Stay calm and act responsibly. Remember, the LEOS will usually know the carry laws. Once the "man with a gun" call is determined to be you shopping for a new tie, the matter will quickly die down. In fact, when the dispatcher asks the caller "What's he doing", and he responds, "shopping", the LEOS might not even respond.

ronc0011
July 7, 2008, 01:51 PM
I agree, I think in most cases people will just dismiss you as some sort of LEO. I suppose it matters how you dress and how you carry. If you look like some sort of thug then I expect you will draw attention. On the other hand if you dress like anyone in the business community I don’t think you will draw undue attention.

I would vote for open carry simply because I could carry my preferred pistol, full length 1911 with out having to dress special for it. I would probably go with an IWB holster, visible but unobtrusive.

lcenter
July 7, 2008, 07:37 PM
I answered yes, and have done. Lived for awhile in Arizona... Gotta love Arizona... Everybody Open Carries!!! :D

Wildalaska
July 7, 2008, 11:50 PM
It's simply a matter of ease and comfort.

Then you would be carrying a pocket pistol ;)

WildnoholstersnadnohasslesAlaska TM

GPossenti
July 8, 2008, 10:54 AM
I saw a guy with a glock and two mags in a shoulder holster the other day, but couldn't find a badge. He wore khakis and a blue polo, and I had a hard time shaking the feeling that he was an LEO, but I couldn't see any proof.

Here in Louisiana, it's freaking hot and humid during the summer. I don't have my CHL yet, but I can't imagine trying to conceal during the summer unless my pistol is in a bag of some sort.

I'm gonna have to get my CHL to carry during the cooler months. I think it's darn near impossible to open carry with winter clothes.

JesseL
July 8, 2008, 12:31 PM
I open carry pretty regularly. I find it far more comfortable than concealing and I feel that deterrence is at least as valuable as surprise.

It's not the big deal here that it seems to be in other places. Police don't hassle me, businesses don't ask me to leave, and nobody freaks out or gets offened.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m5/J_M_Lambert/Guns/OCatcarshow.jpg

Note, that I don't usually carry a single action revolver.

Sparky33
July 8, 2008, 06:23 PM
I would like to be able to chose OC or CW. In TX you could lose your CHL if you show your weapon in public by accident. So OC would be great in case you print or your shirt come up a bit too much or if you spook some anti's

izzkidioto
July 8, 2008, 06:53 PM
Would that be considered being open carry if it accidentally printed while concealed?

JohnKSa
July 8, 2008, 08:04 PM
Accidental printing or accidentally showing the firearm is not going to get you in trouble in TX although I suppose if you make a habit of "accidentally" showing your firearm you're eventually going to get nailed.

§ 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN[0] BY LICENSE
HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun[0].

My emphasis added.

TX allows open carry off one's own property only in very limited instances.

mountainclmbr
July 8, 2008, 08:42 PM
I don't for the same reason I don't carry money where it can be seen, car keys where they can be taken or credit cards dangling around my neck where the numbers can be seen. Sure, all may be legal, but it gives an advantage to the BG. It is the same reason why BG's fear under cover cops over uniformed cops. They are forewarned in the "open" case. I am not opposed to open carry, I just want the element of surprise for myself.

mjoy64
July 8, 2008, 11:05 PM
Accidental printing or accidentally showing the firearm is not going to get you in trouble in TX although I suppose if you make a habit of "accidentally" showing your firearm you're eventually going to get nailed.


John,

Thanks for clearing up some of the FUD regarding conceal carry in Texas.

Accidentally printing to the public is NOT a justification for OC IMO. While we do not totally agree on the *best* way to carry (in all circumstances), this is an important distinction to make as we all make our own minds up for what is best for us.

There are plenty of reasons to choose OC. I think that the "I won't have to worry about accidentally printing" excuse has to be near the bottom or off the chart of excuses.

BloodyBucket03
July 9, 2008, 08:10 AM
I live in the state of Pennsylvania and I would rather conceal carry but I have open carry a few times and I have never recieved any funny looks from the public or been hastled by the police.

Sigma 40 Blaster
July 9, 2008, 10:58 PM
There have been some good points made, thanks to everyone for their input.

I had a question about OC'ing on your own property. I live in city limits, in a decent sized city in Texas...big enough for it's own mall and three Wal Marts.

I define my property as my front, back, and side yards, driveway, and in my own home. I usually carry IWB when I'm outside working (mowing, weed eating...whatever).

I can OC in my front yard while mowing and doing all that good stuff? No room for cops to say I'm causing a disturbance or waiting for me to ride my mower into the street so they can say I was in a public place?

JohnKSa
July 10, 2008, 12:02 AM
My take.

You can OC in your front yard in TX.

Your neighbors can call the police if it bothers them.

After they call the police, the police will most likely come talk to you to see if you're a nut.

If you don't act stupid the police will then go talk to your neighbors and tell them to leave you alone and to quit calling the police over your carrying a gun in your yard.

If you believe that your neighbors are likely to be really hacked off about the whole deal, you could videotape yourself until the police come the first time in case your neighbors accuse you of displaying "...a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm..." § 42.01 (a) (8)

Playboypenguin
July 10, 2008, 12:05 AM
Nope, not as an everyday practice. I would open carry while camping or hiking though.

HoraceHogsnort
July 10, 2008, 09:09 PM
I'm 65 years old, I'm 5' 7" tall and weigh about 190 lbs. Add in the bad back and OC just is NOT an option for me. There are just TOO MANY people who are big enough to take my gun away and use it for whatever they want. On top of that I'm just NOT ABOUT to give up the element of surprise to the BG. That's my 2 cents worth.

Kalindras
July 13, 2008, 07:58 AM
I'd do both. Carry my Dad's WWII GI .45 in a nice leather holster, and keep carrying my little Kel-Tec as a back-up. That way, you're covered, either way. I have to imagine that open carry makes you more of a target in a situation like a bank robbery or when someone comes into a restaurant to rob it, but just walking down the street, I don't see it as drawing any unusual attention or making you more likely to be "chosen."

Keltyke
July 13, 2008, 08:54 AM
I have to imagine that open carry makes you more of a target in a situation like a bank robbery or when someone comes into a restaurant to rob it,

I can't agree there. Crooks want it easy and need intimidation for their scheme to work. If they walk into a bank and see a couple of guys standing in line and packing, they're gonna just turn, walk back out, and look for an easier target. Hard to intimidate a guy wearing a 1911.

docholiday1970
July 13, 2008, 07:06 PM
Most of the time I do open carry. Only on brief occasions do I actually ccw.
Doc

Stevie-Ray
July 14, 2008, 10:20 PM
Crooks want it easy and need intimidation for their scheme to work. If they walk into a bank and see a couple of guys standing in line and packing, they're gonna just turn, walk back out, and look for an easier target. Hard to intimidate a guy wearing a 1911.While I agree with this for the most part, playing devil's advocate says that you'll be the first killed in a truly organized bank robbery, as you will appear to be the one likely to cause the most trouble.

tranks
July 14, 2008, 10:32 PM
i would only OC out in the wilderness. i'd worry too much if i OC in town. (worry about people worrying about me. :rolleyes:)

and even then, if was carrying a subcompact or compact pistol i would probably conceal. (in the wilderness)

gun44
July 15, 2008, 08:56 PM
Here in Georgia your CCW permits the open or concealed carry, but you must have the permit for either. Most of the time I carry concealed, but during the summer there are times when I carry open because of the hot weather and minimum clothing! I don't like IWB holsters, so at times OC is about the only option I have, other than a fanny pak, which I wouldn't be caught dead wearing in my neck of the woods! LOL

Juhosaphat
July 15, 2008, 09:40 PM
I voted 'it depends'. Here in Washington it is legal, and I do on occasion, but not in a traditional belt holster. I'll just wear my IWB holster with my shirt off or something along those lines, so it's still not that noticeable. I will OC every once in a while in a belt holster, but that's when I'm going to the range, or to a place I know is comfortable with guns.

I think this element of surprise that everyone speaks of is a good thing to have, but what would happen, in the off chance...You start fumbling for your CC pistol, but get hung up on your shirt or something along those lines? Then you lose all element of surprise and you become an instant threat to any would be attacker. I'm not saying that this would be a common happening, and with enough precautions taken, probably would never happen to a responsible CCer, but I sure wouldn't want to be the statistic in that situation.

So maybe I'll start trying to get more comfortable with OC since it is perfectly legal in my state. I also agree with an earlier made point that maybe once people start seeing guns in a more common/neutral environment, the fear of them will start going down. Only time will tell though. Either way, I think it should be the option of the individual whether or not they want to CC or OC.

daveydoo
July 15, 2008, 09:45 PM
Outside little LA (phx) I do. In Phx (valley) it is ccw, way too many libs and hassle in this hell hole of a valley. Prescott and other small cities in AZ much more warmer to oc.

GWbiker
July 16, 2008, 05:43 PM
OC in Tucson and along the southern portion of Arizona. I wear a black holster, black belt, medium size black gun (compact 9mm or .45) and dark trousers.

No one seems to notice my weapon! :D

jackmcmanus21
July 17, 2008, 09:17 AM
I'll open carry anywhere I can. Things are pretty relaxed where I'm from in PA

rogermac
July 17, 2008, 10:14 PM
I almost always open carry when hunting or going out to shoot. (Public desert land) I have open carried on other rare occasions, and even though it is generally accepted in these parts, I prefer not to as a regular practice. I do carry concealed at all times where legal, usually even a BUG when open carrying.

MCab
July 23, 2008, 04:27 PM
I can see where open carry can be real useful.

If for some reason, you have to be in a rough area, then it'd be nice to not have a garment in the way of your draw. I could also see it becoming a deterrent.

ckd
July 23, 2008, 05:35 PM
Old axioms: an armed society is a polite society; suprise and over whelming force win battles.

I like open carry but despite weapons retention training, prefer a retention holster as a measure of insurance. I always conceal carry a snubby. OWB holster carry is more comfortable when I carry a full frame hand gun.

When I lived in an open carry state, people were always more polite and less confrontational when someone was OWB.

I doubt we'll ever see open carry in heavily Democratic states.

tplumeri
July 23, 2008, 05:44 PM
Ive open carried in cowboy garb in the local parade and when i'm working around the property. i accidentaly open carried one day when i took off a sweatshirt and walked around town with the grip sticking out above my belt (legal here) but, for the most part, its concealed. dont like drawing attention to myself.;)

copenhagen
July 23, 2008, 05:50 PM
I remember when I was 10, and I'm only 25 now, so that is 15 years ago, I used to walk with my little brother to our Grandparents house- about 2 miles. We would open carry my little Marlin Semi-Auto .22 without a second thought, and we would shoot squirrels if we saw them. We probably went past about 20 houses on the walk down the road as well. I distinctly remember police passing us once and asking if we needed a ride- nothing was said about the .22 rifle other than to ask us if we got anything that day. I am pretty sure open carry was not legal then in SC, but I know we didn't know and better (it seemed normal and ok), and obviously the LEOs did not care.

HKFan9
July 26, 2008, 01:33 AM
I live in PA where open carry is legal, I marked "it depends" because If i was going certain places I might not, but if I'm running around my small rural town it wouldn't bother me or most if any people there at all.

Southern_guy
July 26, 2008, 02:34 AM
I'd say no. Shop owners around here keep shotguns and the like behind the counter, and if I was working the desk at a bank or store and a guy brandishing a gun strolled inside, I would be worried.

Rufkarma
July 26, 2008, 07:16 AM
I voted no, I would not open carry willingly. I live in Georgia and have a CCW Permit. Georgia recently passed a law permitted CCW permit holders to carry in public parks, on public transportation and in restaurants where alcohol is sold for consumption on the premises.

I think most of it has been said; I carry to protect myself and my family. I'm a retired Navy Corpsman (FMF), I would call police, be a good witness and even intervene if necessary depending on the situation. However, having been a Reserve Deputy Sheriff I would be hesitant to intervene . . . because you just neve know, and I don't want to risk being mistaken for a miscreant rather than a samaritan.

I prefer that no one other than my wife know that I'm carrying.

If my gun is visible in public it's out and ready for a perceived threat.

Rufkarma:cool:

Splat!!
July 26, 2008, 08:20 AM
I have never heard of anyone being involved in a self defense shooting while open carrying a handgun......Although several have been involved while Concealed carrying...................:eek:

.300H&H
July 26, 2008, 09:34 PM
I don't open carry, and I can't honestly advocate it.

However, I would like to be able to go into town once in awhile and have a nice steak dinner at the hotel, go over to the saloon and play cards and maybe have a drink or two with Miss Kitty, Doc., Festus, Sally the new girl, and maybe even Matt, if he's in town. Under those circumstances, I'd like to open carry - probably a Colt .45 ie. maybe one of those nice Beretta/Ubertti models.:D

cnutco
July 26, 2008, 10:26 PM
During hunting season I carry a .44 7.5" under my shoulder and that is about the only time.

I CCW because I like the idea of surprise and I do not like people judging me.

treo
July 26, 2008, 10:57 PM
It's not something I've done in a while. I would in the back country, not so much in town

seeker_two
July 27, 2008, 07:15 AM
One question I've wondered: What is the "demarcation line" b/t open carry and concealed carry?

If you carry a gun IWB where only the grip is showing, is that still open carry?

If you put on a jacket so the gun is still visible from the front but not the side & back, is it still open carry?

If you're wearing a jacket and the bottom of the holster is visible, is it still open carry?

And how could you be arrested for concealed carry w/o a permit in an open carry state if someone spots the gun? If it's seen, doesn't that make it open carry?

Just curious.....

rsgraebert
July 28, 2008, 01:44 PM
Interesting delineation. In the winter, I have a leather coat on and IWB so you can generally call that fully concealed. In the summer, I have taken to not caring very much...Just a t-shirt which surely prints from time to time, and sometimes just uncovered if I'm wearing a single tucked shirt.

I've never had a real confrontation over it. While I carry to protect myself, I don't mind helping to normalize the image.

kamerer
July 28, 2008, 05:06 PM
The principle as to whether it's concealed or open is usually pretty straightforward - is it in plain view without an attempt to hide or shelter it? Sates differ, and some that allow open carry don't even specify what it means. This rule doesn't apply everywhere, but it's a good way to think about a situation. Let's just apply that simple concept:


If you carry a gun IWB where only the grip is showing, is that still open carry?


You've concsiously decided to use a holster that conceals the majority of the gun AND the holster from view. Hope you have a CC license, and you could get a stern talking or worse for not carrying it concealed. "Concealed means concealed" as some like to quote.

If you put on a jacket so the gun is still visible from the front but not the side & back, is it still open carry?

Not in plain view; you've concealed it. Have a license.

If you're wearing a jacket and the bottom of the holster is visible, is it still open carry?

You've concealed the majority of the gun - the bottom of the holster could be a cell phone or other holstered item. Have a license.

And how could you be arrested for concealed carry w/o a permit in an open carry state if someone spots the gun? If it's seen, doesn't that make it open carry?

Not if you've attempted to conceal it and failed to do so, as you've described. Without a license, that would be illegal concealed carry (in those 48 states that require a license for CC; not all do.) The judge and prosecutor isn't going to care if the gun was spotted - they are going to care if you had it in a belt on your waist in open view vs. some concealed or semi-concealed method of carrying it.

"Plain view" and "concealed" are not terribly confusing terms; just think in those terms. Remember, semi-concealed is not "in plain view." Nor is it really concealed. Choose one mode and use it.

JesseL
August 4, 2008, 04:36 PM
I'd say no. Shop owners around here keep shotguns and the like behind the counter, and if I was working the desk at a bank or store and a guy brandishing a gun strolled inside, I would be worried.

A visible, holstered sidearm doesn't generally meet the legal or common use definitions for 'brandishing'. Is a cell phone carried on your belt being brandished too?:confused:

Brian Pfleuger
August 4, 2008, 04:59 PM
and if I was working the desk at a bank ... and a guy brandishing a gun strolled inside, I would be worried.

and that would be illegal anyway, at least in NY. NO firearms allowed in a bank, concealed or otherwise.

daveydoo
August 4, 2008, 05:05 PM
Unless you are LEO

Borch
August 20, 2008, 12:41 PM
I work in corrections for the local sheriff's office and I have my CCW. My CCW class was taught by a department firearms instructor and one of the things that he talked about was open carry and I happen to agree with him on this. The general public has been forbidden or restricted in their carrying of firearms for over 100 years and as such the general public is not accustomed to seeing openly displayed firearms that are not on the duty belt of a uniformed LEO.

Many in the general public do not shoot or hunt and many are also scared of guns even in the hands of LEO's. We, as CCW holders and active carriers of weapons are in the vast minority in this country, and the numbers back this up, at least here in MN they do. Since MN became a CCW state 5 years ago somewhere around 10,000 permits have been issued, out of a population of over 2 million statewide. I live in a county of 150,000 people and only 1100 permits have been issued here. Open carry would, IMO, only invite trouble. I don't mean from people who want to make me a target, but from the non gun carrying, non shooting, non hunting, possibly fearful people in the community.

It happened to a buddy of mine last year, his sweatshirt came up over his gun when he bent down to pick up a 12 pack of soda at the gas station and by the time he had paid for the soda and exited the store there were 3 cops waiting, one with her weapon drawn. He was put through the full felony arrest procedure (get down on your kness, now lay down, put your hands behind your head etc.). He was searched, disarmed, handcuffed and put in the back seat of the squad car. His weapon was then unloaded and secured in the trunk of the squad car. He was then brought back out and questioned at length. By the time the whole incident was finished it had been almost 2 hours and he had nearly lost his job as his boss had driven by and seen what was going on.

Based on this I will never open carry and I am very sure my weapon is fully concealed, at all times when in public. I don't know about you guys but I don't want to be detained and questioned everytime someone gets nervous and calls the cops because they've seen my weapon that I legally carry.

RockyMtnTactical
August 20, 2008, 12:45 PM
I open carry, but usually only in the wilderness.

That said, I have no problems with open carry and wish I saw it happen even more. I've seen it more often lately it seems.

rsgraebert
August 20, 2008, 01:07 PM
Regarding Borch's story:

Here in Ohio, the firearms community can and WILL run an entire police department through the wringer for harassing open carrying citizens who are doing nothing illegal at the time. I agree that a lot of education needs to take place, but it won't happen without a few incidents. At this point, it's still a bad idea to wander around on a busy sidewalk with a weapon sticking out of your waistband but the chances of getting police attention while pumping gas or shopping at the grocery store are minimal. Akron City Police actually circulated a memo reminding officers that open carry is legal.

Wildalaska
August 20, 2008, 01:26 PM
I saw a guy open carrying the other day in the supermarket, wearing a shirt that screamed in big letters....The Second Amendment blah blah blah.. most of the folks in the lines were guys and I caught several eye rolls and snickers....the guy behind me must have seen the butt of my SIG poking my sweatshirt out because he said "look at that jerkoff, whats he trying to prove"...I asked him what he was carrying and he said with a grin "442" and patted his front pocket.

Other folks have seen this guy around town and he is becoming a joke among gun owners I have talked to, which is virtually everybody:D

WildneedsgoodcoffeeAlaska ™

The Great Mahoo
August 20, 2008, 01:40 PM
I only consider open carry while away from town. I'm not a hunter, but when going fishing, hiking, camping, etc, I would open carry. Most of the time, it's just easier to keep it concealed and avoid any trouble.

Where I live, PA, open carry is legal, but seems more hassle than its worth. I think even my friends might think strange of it if they saw a gun on me. And then theres everyone I know through work. And working in marketing and PR, thats a lot of people to try to explain a gun to, even if I am off the clock...

spacemanspiff
August 20, 2008, 05:37 PM
Yup, I open carry to exercise my rights.

Its the only exercise my fat behind has been getting lately. :p

SPUSCG
August 20, 2008, 05:55 PM
if i went up north where its more acceptable yes, around town id just scare the s*** out of tourists

dm1333
August 20, 2008, 06:10 PM
I voted yes. I open carry when fishing, biking, ATV'ing, cross country skiing, etc.

kennybs plbg
August 20, 2008, 07:39 PM
in NY. NO firearms allowed in a bank, concealed or otherwise.


This statement is false. The only restricted area's in NY are the courts, federal buildings, and school property without permission.

kenny b

JesseL
August 21, 2008, 03:03 PM
I work in corrections for the local sheriff's office and I have my CCW. My CCW class was taught by a department firearms instructor and one of the things that he talked about was open carry and I happen to agree with him on this. The general public has been forbidden or restricted in their carrying of firearms for over 100 years and as such the general public is not accustomed to seeing openly displayed firearms that are not on the duty belt of a uniformed LEO.

The general public here in Arizona has never been forbidden in their carrying of firearms (with the exception of some unpleasantness in Tombstone a while back). Open carry passes without notice.

I'm happy to do my part in seeing that we never end up with a struggle to regain the rights we abandoned, the way Minnesota evidently has.

springmom
August 21, 2008, 09:06 PM
Yes indeed. Especially in summer. My choices are between a gun that will fit in my Jagwear belt pouch (Kimber Ultra Carry, Bersa .380, or, believe it or not, XD-9) or the m37 snubbie IWB. For a long time I tried to carry IWB with the Kimber and others; it is uncomfortable, and in a Houston summer, the holster gets soaked with sweat by midmorning.

I'd like to say I'd do it on principle, but the fact is, I want to be able to carry the gun I want in a comfortable OWB holster without having to worry about a stray gust of wind landing me with a brandishing charge.

And I'm not worried about hysterics among the public. Most reactions will probably be to ignore it altogether.

Springmom

mvpel
August 21, 2008, 10:26 PM
I carry openly in order to vindicate my fundamental human right of armed self-defense.

Might I get aggressive attention from police officers? Might I annoy passerby? Maybe so, but so did the Black people who sat down in "Whites Only" restaurants.

http://re3.yt-thm-a01.yimg.com/image/25/m4/3056038767 http://www-tc.pbs.org/thisfarbyfaith/images/journey_4/pic_4_5_2.jpg http://www.soulforce.org/images/birmingham.jpg

If those heroic, courageous people could face down fire hoses and attack dogs to stake a claim to fundamental human rights, then I can take a few hairy eyeballs and a bit of aggressive police attention because of my openly carried sidearm in order to stake a claim to fundamental human rights.

Jim Crow wasn't ended by folks who kept on sitting in the back of the bus, it was ended by people who stood up and demanded, fought for, and sued for their rights.

tedwhite
August 21, 2008, 10:55 PM
I'm a former LEO. I carry concealed. I don't normally open carry because I'm not interested in attracting attention to myself.

If I'm going to the range, or out in the desert banging around in a jeep or pickup, or generally out in the middle of nowhere hiking, then I'll open carry my 1911 or my Glock 17. I live on the Arizona/Mexico border, so especially down there.

What I won't carry on the border is an AK47 or a black rifle. Too easy to end up a case of mistaken identity.

Stagger Lee
August 21, 2008, 11:04 PM
What it really boils down to is that people who are not uniformed police officers but want to carry a gun openly in public--and I'm not talking about hiking but wearing the gun in town around others--are just trying to show everyone how big and bad they are because they have a gun. That's all it is.

It's not about Rights at all, even though they'll say that it is because they don't want to tell the truth. It's only about little men trying to feel big by intimidating other people. It's more of a cry for attention than anything else.

Frank Ettin
August 21, 2008, 11:26 PM
When I may legally do so, I will carry conceal (except perhaps in rare circumstance -- like being out in the woods). I don't think it's anyone's business but mine that I'm armed.

tedwhite
August 21, 2008, 11:41 PM
I agree with Stagger Lee: It's about "Look at me, I'm wearing my gun today! And I'm exercising my rights to do so!"

What rights are you not exercising when you carry concealed?

Desertscout1
August 22, 2008, 12:24 AM
I open carry about 18 hours a day, 365 days year. When I feel the need to carry concealed, I do. But it's not often. It's not a big deal in my neck of the woods. Hundreds, maybe thousands of people OC in several western states. Some of you look at it as flaunting your gun but it is simply a way of life here and most don't notice. I have at LEAST 40-50 customers that OC in my store and probably 10 times that many that carry concealed.

KChen986
August 22, 2008, 06:24 AM
I'd open carry if I could. Allows for a faster draw, unimpeded by clothing and I needn't worry about sweat soaking the gun. It'd also allow me to carry a full size 1911 without having it jutting in to my belly.

evan1293
August 22, 2008, 06:24 AM
If you've got it, flaunt it!

JK:)

w_houle
August 22, 2008, 07:00 AM
i have open carried, I can't say I was comfortable doing it. It draws a lot more attention to me, a lot of questions about legality, and cops wanting to run a background check on me and my pistol a lot. On the positive side it's about $400 cheaper to open carry and I don't have to renew every four years.
Ain't Kansas grand!

mvpel
August 22, 2008, 07:06 AM
You know what, Stagger Lee & Ted White, you're just like the "go along to get along" Black folks who spent decades quietly sitting in the back of the bus and using the back door. You're like the disgruntled Black folks who denounced civil rights activists as "uppity."

Open carry is REQUIRED BY LAW in all but two states ... unless you get permission from the government to do otherwise. Open carry is REQUIRED BY LAW in Virginia, even if you have a permission slip, in most restaurants. Open carry in Ohio is precisely what forced the legislature to reform that state's abusive concealed carry licensing system. Open carry was specifically referenced in the Heller majority opinion (pp. 39, 40, 41, 57).

So, Stagger Lee & TedWhite, you're certainly entitled to your imaginary notions about other people's motivations, and entitled to vomit them forth here, but don't expect any of the people you insult - people who are actively working to vindicate your rights - to respect you for it.

tamaneko
August 22, 2008, 08:09 AM
Seems like a bothersome way to attract undue attention. No thanks, that's what CCW is for.

redhart
August 22, 2008, 08:15 AM
I agree with BILLYSPARKS, having it concealed can give you the element of surprise also.and it draws no attention to you.

dm1333
August 22, 2008, 08:50 AM
Open carry when I am out and about doing things and it is -20 is not a matter of "look at me, exercising my rights" it is a matter of what is the best method of carry for that day and those conditions. When concealed carry is a better choice I carry concealed.

When I retire from the Coast Guard and move inland it will be to places like New Mexico or Arizona where open carry is not an issue.

shortwave
August 22, 2008, 08:56 AM
As with anything else there`s a time and place for everything therefore I voted "depends". I`ve only open carried a few times in my life but you can bet if my pants are on I`m carrying(the few times I open carried was cause pants were`nt on:p:D) IMHO judging someone badly for open carry is as bad as an anti-gunner judging someone who carries period. It is our 2nd amendment right.

rburch
August 22, 2008, 09:55 AM
Now that I have my permit I tend to conceal.

Before I had one I would OC from time to time, but I live in Blacksburg Virginia, and a couple of Aprils ago OC became a little less acceptable around here.

I don't carry my Kel-tec everywhere I go, but the only place I don't take my Cold Steel knife is the courthouse. (Please no Knife to a Gunfight jokes)

In anycase I pretty much OC only when away from town, but I'd prefer that the option to do so remained an option.

And FYI, Tombstone wasn't the only western town that forbid the carrying of guns in the town.

Wildalaska
August 22, 2008, 12:53 PM
So, Stagger Lee & TedWhite, you're certainly entitled to your imaginary notions about other people's motivations, and entitled to vomit them forth here, but don't expect any of the people you insult - people who are actively working to vindicate your rights - to respect you for it.

There are plenty of folks here besides Stagger and Ted who feel the same way :)

WildthisisanolddebatehoweverAlaska ™

Desertscout1
August 22, 2008, 01:01 PM
There are plenty of folks here besides Stagger and Ted who feel the same way
There are plenty that don't too.

Playboypenguin
August 22, 2008, 01:02 PM
There are plenty of folks here besides Stagger and Ted who feel the same way
There are plenty that don't too.
But from my experiences, I would bet there are way more that do agree with him. :)

Seems like most people, even on gun boards, that say they would open carry would only do so in certain circumstances...such as hiking, camping, etc. It can also make sense if you live somewhere off the beaten path or in a ranching community where wldlife is still abundant, but if you feel so threatened just going to town that you need to carry openly to warn off two legged predators then you might want to see someone about that.

Desertscout1
August 22, 2008, 01:16 PM
My first impression of many of these posts is that they are just plain idiotic and totally presumptuous. But I guess it's because some here think they really know what everyone else thinks and some others are simply afraid of what people MIGHT think. Still others probably live in places where wearing a gun alarms people and makes them look at you. Pity.
If I lived in one of those places, I would move.

dm1333
August 22, 2008, 01:19 PM
Seems like most people, even on gun boards, that say they would open carry would only do so in certain circumstances...such as hiking, camping, etc. If you feel so threatened just going to town that you need to carry openly to warn off predators then you might want to see someone about that.

If you feel so threatened just going to town that you need to carry concealed then you might want to see someone about that.

What is the difference between what you said and how I modified your statement? I (my opinion only) think most of us who choose to open carry do it because it is more convenient. If people open carry only do so because they want to look like a bad ass or be intimidating why are there those goofy looking concealed carry badges all over the place? Are you telling me that somebody who carries concealed and flashes a badge like that isn't going for the same effect?

Playboypenguin
August 22, 2008, 01:21 PM
What is the difference between what you said and how I modified your statement? I (my opinion only) think most of us who choose to open carry do it because it is more convenient. If people open carry only do so because they want to look like a bad ass or be intimidating why are there those goofy looking concealed carry badges all over the place? Are you telling me that somebody who carries concealed and flashes a badge like that isn't going for the same effect?
There is a huge psychological difference. Carrying concealed is not a display. Carrying openly is chest thumping. It is being so afraid that you are spurred in preventative measures before a threat even presents itself.

dm1333
August 22, 2008, 01:25 PM
How can you say that when I open carry it is chest thumping? You are making a sweeping judgement.

Playboypenguin
August 22, 2008, 01:26 PM
How can you say that when I open carry it is chest thumping? You are making a sweeping judgement.
No, my original post clarified the circumstances. I clearly stated there are times and circumstances where it is justified...but daily activity in a metropolitan area is generally not going to fall into that category.

rsgraebert
August 22, 2008, 01:34 PM
I suppose I just can't see why it's not applicable to daily routines. We're largely of the opinion that possession of weapons is a good thing in this community, so why should they be hidden? Frankly, I don't mind the fact that a visible weapon has a chance to prevent an altercation before it even happens. Is that really paranoia? I'd really rather the pistol do its job from the holster than in my hand.

There are of course arguments from both sides of the fence as to whether a visible weapon has a better chance of causing or preventing issues across the board. When I try to think like a criminal though, and ask myself if a citizen who is comfortably wearing a pistol would make a -good- target or a -bad- target, I invariably come to the conclusion that at least someone who doesn't appear to be armed might not be.

Playboypenguin
August 22, 2008, 01:38 PM
I suppose I just can't see why it's not applicable to daily routines. We're largely of the opinion that possession of weapons is a good thing in this community, so why should they be hidden?
The true belief is that it is good to "be prepared to deal with possible threats." The opinion is not that it is "good to carry a gun." There is a very important distinction there.

People who open carry when the situation does not warrant it are missing that distinction. They are taking themselves from the position of passive preparedness to aggressive posturing.

rsgraebert
August 22, 2008, 01:48 PM
Well I'm not about to strap a can of OC to a tactical thigh rig! I see your point to a degree, I just don't take it to the extreme that the people around me can't handle the presence of someone openly armed, or that it's some sort of chest thumping. I just really like the idea of presenting myself as a very poor choice for a victim. There are other ways to do that as well - how you carry yourself, how you dress, how alert you are, etc as well as other weapons to have including batons, spray, tasers, what have you. The long and the short of it is that I'm no more or less dangerous while armed when my shirt is under or over my holster. The only rationale I can see for covering up is that it makes some people uncomfortable to see a weapon without a blue suit under it and I think (a little selfishly perhaps) that they should reevaluate, not me.

dm1333
August 22, 2008, 01:51 PM
No, my original post clarified the circumstances. I clearly stated there are times and circumstances where it is justified...but daily activity in a metropolitan area is generally not going to fall into that category.

OK. I still don't agree with you though. To me the only difference between open carry and concealed carry is whether you can see my gun or not. Chest thumping has nothing to do with my choice on how to carry, and sometimes neither does the weather, my choice of clothing, activity, etc. Sometimes I just do it and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. If you saw my 12 year old truck, 20 year old motorcycle, 10 year old road bike, 9 year old mountain bike, etc. you would know that I am not a "show off".

Desertscout1
August 22, 2008, 02:32 PM
I have posted this before on this site but I suppose I could post it again FWIW.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is not a shred of evidence or a case in the U.S. that anyone has ever been able to come up with that any credence whatsoever to the ASSumption that open-carry makes you a target. Out here in the west, there are thousands of us that carry openly everyday and I'm one of them. Why do I carry openly? Here's why...

There are a select few states that allow it's citizens to carry their weapons out in the open without asking permission from their government but there is a FEWER select few citizens that choose to exercise that right for fear of hurting someone's feelings.

There are quite a few establishments nowadays that choose to post signs that prohibit the carry of firearms, openly or concealed, within their walls. This is another of the many things that gives me deep and lasting indigestion. If you don't want to be robbed or have a disgruntled employee take out his frustration on your patrons, why do you create such a "hazard-free environment" for those that might perpetrate such a crime? Do you seriously think that a guy intent on robbing your store, or worse, is going to walk up to your door, see your "No Guns" sign and say, "Darn!, I sooooooo wanted to rob this place but the sign says I can't bring my gun in so I guess I'll just have to go somewhere else."? No, by posting that sign, you have pretty much assured the criminal that there is little, if any, chance that he will be confronted. When trained, credible, responsible citizens carry their weapons in your store and give you their business, you should be grateful that, at least for the time that they are present, your business is protected. At least from violent crime. Most of us will not shoot someone for stealing money as it is replaceable and probably insured. However, I have never met a legitimate gun-toter that would not intervene if someone were to threaten innocents or start shooting.

I think that many post those signs because of fear of the image that some of the patrons might get, not for liability reasons.

It is my opinion that if those who do carry regularly WOULD carry openly more often, it would help to de-sensitize those whom some people are afraid they are going to offend. Well, it offends ME when someone is offended by my carrying (which is RARELY an issue here in NM). I have my rights just like they have theirs. They have the right to get up and go eat somewhere else if they happen to come into a restaurant where I am eating. They have the right to run home screaming if they see me walking down the street and I am armed. I, on the other hand, have the right to do anything that they can do and their being there doesn't affect me one way or the other. The reason that gun rights are in the shape that they are in is because we gunowners continuously pander to "them" and try to compromise to a point that is OK with "them". We walk around and hide what we do or give certain rights away to retain others. That's not freedom to me.

I don't "flaunt" it as some have said. I think that if one is going to carry openly that they should dress neatly and wear your gear professionally and conservatively. I don't think that it's necessarily appropriate to wear a 7.5" Super Blackhawk downtown in cheap nylon Wal-Mart holster. Yes, occasionally when I come in from hunting or something and I'm carrying a .44, I may stop to get a Coke or gas or something but I'm not gonna take my gun off just because someone else may not approve of it but what I wear daily is a Glock 23 in a Blade Tech belt holster with my shirt tail tucked in. I dress neatly and there is nothing threatening about my appearance (unless you feel threatened by someone that 6"4", 250 pounds and wearing a gun ). Once in a while, I get a question or two but I have yet to experience the fear and panic that some claim is going to happen.

Occasionally, someone tells me how much that they value the 2nd amendment. Well, so do I...as it was written. Not as they would have me to accept it. Having said all that, I do believe that there are a very few places where it may not be appropriate to wear openly like church or some business meetings or picking the kids up at the Boys and Girls Club. In those few places, I do carry but it is concealed. If it's an impromptu occasion, I simply untuck my shirt and let it cover the gun. If it's planned, like church, I wear a Glock 27 in a Blade Tech IWB and a jacket or vest.

I don't "flaunt" it, make a big deal out of it or handle it in any manner when in public and I have NEVER had any problem.

I WILL NOT CRAWL AROUND AND EXERCISE MY GOD-GIVEN RIGHTS ONLY WHEN IT IS ACCEPTABLE WITH SOMEONE ELSE OR WHERE THEY CANNOT SEE!

There are those who will not stand up for a passing flag unless a few people around them do. Well I am the one around them that is usually first to stand. I could care less what everyone around me does. I have a man to face every day in the mirror and someone else to face when I leave this world. I plan to be able to walk uprightly before Him and say that I have done the best I could to uphold and exercise the rights and freedoms that I was blessed with at my birth.

"All those in favor of losing their rights, please do nothing!"

dm1333
August 22, 2008, 03:04 PM
It is my opinion that if those who do carry regularly WOULD carry openly more often, it would help to de-sensitize those whom some people are afraid they are going to offend.

I can personally vouch for this being effective. A woman who works at my apartment nearly dropped a box that the office was holding for me after I told her it was ammunition, not the weight set she was joking about. She also confessed to me that she was deathly afraid of guns. After a year of me coming in to pick up ammunition, carrying guns in and out of the building on my way to shoot or hunt, and carrying openly at times she has become very accustomed to me having guns. Now our gun conversations revolve around matches that I have entered, hunting seasons and the status of all my project guns. Had I hidden all evidence of my gun ownership this never would have happened.

JesseL
August 22, 2008, 03:07 PM
Everyone who conceals their firearm is either ashamed of themselves for feeling the need to carry a weapon and wants to give the public impression that they're tough enough not to need a gun, or they're secretly hoping to be attacked so that they'll have the opportunity to gun someone down.

Everyone who drives a sports car, luxury car, large truck, or SUV is trying to compensate for their lack of genital endowment.

Every woman who wears a short skirt and heels is a promiscuous tramp.

Everyone with a tattoo is either a lowlife or a sailor.

Everyone who rides a Harley is probably in an outlaw motorcycle gang.

Everyone with a Grateful Dead sticker on their vehicle is a hippie communist pot smoker.

Every homosexual is a child predator waiting to pounce.

...ad nauseum.

Nobody here knows the mind and motivations of anyone else based simply on when and where they choose not to conceal their sidearm. If you're sure that you do, you're wrong. Claiming to know someone better than they know themselves (especially based on internet postings) is arrogant, stupid, and offensive.

Playboypenguin
August 22, 2008, 03:12 PM
Congrats, you when the award for most baseless load of crap with that last post. The level of disconnect and false association in the post is astounding. Bravo.

Desertscout1,

A great deal of your post could been more easily summed up by wrapping yourself in a flag and thumping your chest while hooting.

What is the desired result of open carry? What is the benefit of it? Why would we even want to live in a community where people would feel the need or desire to open carry regularly?

JesseL
August 22, 2008, 03:30 PM
Congrats, you when the award for most baseless load of crap with that last post. The level of disconnect and false association in the post is astounding. Bravo.

If you think making snap judgments about why people do what they do based on small samples of superficial data is okay for open carriers, why shouldn't you do the same for anyone else? Why shouldn't anyone do it to you?

What is the desired result of open carry? What is the benefit of it? Why would we even want to live in a community where people would feel the need or desire to open carry regularly?

I can only speak for myself, but the desired result for me is to be armed in case of emergency.

The benefit is that I'm not at the mercy of anyone who threatens me or my family with violence.

I don't feel the need to open carry regularly, every evening I'm glad that there was yet again no need for my pistol.

Pretty much the same as why any citizen might carry a sidearm concealed.

You might ask, why would I choose not to conceal my pistol? Comfort is the big reason. I don't like having the grip chafing against my side and I don't like tiny guns. Other (much less significant) reasons include ease of draw, deterrence, and the fact that I don't want to lose my right to carry unconcealed.

There is no discernible social stigma associated with open carrying here, so why should I conceal?

Playboypenguin
August 22, 2008, 03:34 PM
I can only speak for myself, but the desired result for me is to be armed in case of emergency.

The benefit is that I'm not at the mercy of anyone who threatens me or my family with violence.
And CC does not accomplish this?
Comfort is the big reason.
That is the single reason that I actually agree with when discussing open carry. If someone starts their response, when asked why they support open carry, with "it is so much more comfortable and easier" I can actually relate to them. If they start off thumping their chest and quoting the constitution while humming the battle hymn of the republic in their head I have heard enough before they even start.

rsgraebert
August 22, 2008, 03:38 PM
PBP - I think JesseL was being facetious / sarcastic and does not actually feel that way, though I could be wrong. I understood his post to be comparing your suggestion that everyone who carries openly being a chest thumper to some of his more extreme examples of assumption. I could be wrong.

From my point of view, here are some possible (though not inclusive) answers to your questions:

What is the desired result of open carry?

Preclusion of violence by demonstrating that the carrier is a hard target. Not necessarily a badass, not necessarily a braggard, but most definitely not a good target for crime.

What is the benefit of it?

One would hope that one benefit would be the above desired result. In addition to that, it quietly introduces everyone who notices it to the concept of an armed citizen. Let me emphasize that in my case at least, this is not the desired result or the purpose - it's just a benefit.

Why would we even want to live in a community where people would feel the need or desire to open carry regularly?

Why wouldn't you? How many old ladies would get mugged in the street if everyone in the area was armed? How many criminals would hold up stores or banks or <insert place of business> if the half of the customers were clearly armed? The answer probably isn't zero, but it's probably less than the existing number...

I am a big fan of deterrence. All other rationale and facts aside, if you want an honest answer, I'll tell you: I'm concerned that in a conflict, firearm and all, I will fail. I've got training and tools on my side, but there's always a chance that someone beats me to the punch. If that makes me less of a man, so be it. At the end of the day, I'd rather someone see an armed citizen and walk away than force my hand to see who's going to win in armed conflict when they weren't aware of the firearm.

CzCasull
August 22, 2008, 03:39 PM
I'm in the USA, of course I'd open carry :)

though, of course it's always good to conceal..

tedwhite
August 22, 2008, 03:54 PM
I just read your very thoughtful and well-reasoned post, and I pretty much agree with everything you said. When I posted earlier I made the mistake of implying that everyone who open carried was simply a show off. Obviously that's not the case at all, and I apologize for not thinking before writing.

I'm assuming that's your gun shop there in Farmington. I've actually visited there for a look around not so long ago on my way back to AZ. Nice store. And yes, I did notice that in your neck of the woods lots of folks OC. Oddly, not so much OC down here on the border where there are huge amounts of crime (primarily illegals crossing the border and being led by very unsavory coyotes and endless drug smuggling), but lots of CC. A gun shop opened here recently and its presence has contributed to the issuance of over 200 CCW permits in the this area during the last year. And no doubt to lots of new gun owners.

OC around here is mostly done by ranchers and others who live in remote areas hours from any law enforcement assistance.

Yellowfin
August 22, 2008, 04:06 PM
Something I don't think I've seen brought up yet but I could have merely missed it: revolvers, 4 or 6 inchers. Some people handle and shoot those more effectively than they would a more concealable sidearm, so OC is the way to go for them. I for one think they should be able to carry what they're most effective in using, and OC is pretty much it unless you've got a jacket on which simply isn't fitting for the weather or occasion a lot of the time in a lot of places.

Oh wait, there's no way for the skeptics to have a smartass comeback about chest beating Rambos, easy targets, etc. so that's why it wasn't mentioned...

As for myself, well, business attire is expected for my job so OC is definitely in my future, likely everywhere and every day as much as half the time when I move back to the free world. I like the secondary bonus of advocacy, but main purpose is not looking like a slob with my shirt untucked or needing something small in a shoulder holster and my jacket on the whole day--in July that just ain't cutting it.

mvpel
August 22, 2008, 04:18 PM
Regardless of how many insults certain folks can sling on this thread, the simple fact is that as firearms freedom expands across the country as a result of the Heller decision, it will expand principally in the area of open carry.

The Heller case makes this fact quite clear:

Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited.It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. ...

... Aymette held that the state constitutional guarantee of the right to “bear” arms did not prohibit the banning of concealed weapons. ...

... In Nunn v. State, the Georgia Supreme Court struck down a prohibition
on carrying pistols openly (even though it upheld a prohibition on carrying concealed weapons). ...
So for those of you who can't seem to refrain from gravely insulting fellow gun owners who choose a different mode of carry than the one which you prefer, you're going to have a lot more people to insult as more and more gun laws are struck down across the country.

Wildalaska
August 22, 2008, 04:52 PM
Preclusion of violence by demonstrating that the carrier is a hard target. Not necessarily a badass, not necessarily a braggard, but most definitely not a good target for crime.

Dunno, if I was a criminal in pre rob mode standing at the register in the line next to Mr Right to Bear Arms, I'd probably pop him first :)

WildstealthmodeAlaska ™

Playboypenguin
August 22, 2008, 05:04 PM
Dunno, if I was a criminal in pre rob mode standing at the register in the line next to Mr Right to Bear Arms, I'd probably pop him first
And if I had no respect for the law and had been perpetrating my crimes with knives and clubs up until this point I might even target him as a means to increase my proficiency. :)

JesseL
August 22, 2008, 05:35 PM
Funny that those hypothetical situations never actually happen.

It seems to me that if someone is going to rob a place where an open carrier is shopping, odds are high that the criminal will never even notice the guy with the gun. If the criminal does notice the guy with the gun there's a good chance he'll just decide to come back later or try a different store.

The vast majority of the public doesn't ever notice an openly carried pistol. Throw in the adrenaline and target fixation that a robber is likely dealing with, and he'd probably never notice if you had two heads let alone a holstered pistol.

Playboypenguin
August 22, 2008, 05:46 PM
Funny that those hypothetical situations never actually happen.
Are you saying noone has ever been targeted for their firearm? Either through theft or mugging? I can tell you from personal experience it happens in the gang world quite often. If someone displays their firearm on the street they risk making themselves a target.

My cousin-n-law used to be a prominent gang member and he knows better. He has said that the smart guys hide their guns. The guy you do not see a gun on is the one to watch the closest.

noelf2
August 22, 2008, 05:47 PM
bunch of crap. that's the sort of things the hidden holster salesman at the guns shows say. bad guy would probably think mr. right to bear arms was a cop and would steer clear, not pop him first. all speculation. i open carry, and i hate capital letters.

Playboypenguin
August 22, 2008, 05:48 PM
i Open Carry, And I Hate Capital Letters.
We Can Tell. :)

Frank Ettin
August 22, 2008, 05:57 PM
...So for those of you who can't seem to refrain from gravely insulting fellow gun owners who choose a different mode of carry than the one which you prefer,...
I have no interest in insulting people who carry their weapons openly. But I am getting awfully tired of listening (or, actually, reading) folks congratulate themselves for somehow demonstrating special virtue by going around in public displaying their roscoes.

If someone carries openly because it's convenient or otherwise suits his needs, fine. But if you're trying to sell me the notion that carrying openly makes you some kind of anointed knight in the RKBA crusade -- phui -- I'm not buying.

JesseL
August 22, 2008, 06:06 PM
Are you saying noone has ever been targeted for their firearm? Either through theft or mugging? I can tell you from personal experience it happens in the gang world quite often. If someone displays their firearm on the street they risk making themselves a target.

I was actually saying that I've never heard of a civilian who happened to be open carrying at the scene of a robbery being attacked after their holstered pistol was noticed by the robber.

In response to your comments about gang members targeting people who display their firearms, I gotta say that that sounds a little removed from my situation. I don't associate with any gang members, I don't 'display' or flash my pistol (it's there in plain sight, but I don't deliberately draw attention to it), and I can't remember ever even hearing about anyone being mugged in my locale. Maybe it's got something to do with how many law-abiding folks are armed here?

Prescott isn't exactly a metropolitan area yet, but it's not exactly rural anymore either. I realize that circumstances are different in other places and discretion may dictate other methods of carry for some folks.

I think that maybe popular open carry can be the ounce of prevention that's needed to keep my hometown from becoming the sort of place where you wouldn't want to risk open carry.

crashm1
August 22, 2008, 08:43 PM
I voted it depends. I am a WI resident who has a MN non resident permit to carry. I cannot legally carry concealed in WI, I cannot legally carry a loaded and uncased firearm in my vehicle in WI so when I choose to carry here I need to do it openly and walk and or go through the unload/reload everytime I get in the car or on the bike. When in the Twin Cities area I can carry open or concealed and usually conceal (sometimes just barely with a t-shirt) because I am usually in Minneapolis hitting a coffee shop to visit with friends who share my other passion of sport bikes or on a book buying run at Uncle Hugos or Once Upon a Crime. On the whole I prefer concealing because it requires fewer interactions with morons with or without badges, that said I see no reason that those who like or at least better tolerate morons shouldn't be able to open carry. There are a few guys on TwinCitiesCarry.com that open carry fairly regular. They say the vast majority of folk don't notice.
One other thing someone said MN has issued 10,000 permits it's actually around 52,000 so far.

mvpel
August 22, 2008, 09:01 PM
But if you're trying to sell me the notion that carrying openly makes you some kind of anointed knight in the RKBA crusade -- phui -- I'm not buying.
Well, I guess that demonstrates that you're not from Ohio, then.

tedwhite
August 22, 2008, 09:46 PM
Yellowfin mentioned that he didn't think these revolvers were suitable for anything other than open carry. Actually a 2, 3, or even a 4 inch revolver is quite suitable for concealed carry. Especially the round butt models, which conceal quite nicely, perhaps even better than a double-stack Glock.

Before US law enforcement agencies discarded wheel guns in favor of semi-autos, most plain clothes officers carried one of the above concealed - strong side, cross-draw, upside-down shoulder holster, you name it. We all did it as there really weren't any alternatives - no Glocks, etc., and no one with any sense was going to schlep a concealed 1911 around for a full shift.

ArizonaTRex
August 22, 2008, 10:00 PM
I am finding this thread...Amazing. :eek: Here I am on a forum with people I know, absolutely know, that understand that we all have the right to "keep and bear arms" and some of those people believe that the way we carry dictates what kind of people we are! Maybe its just me, maybe I just don't get it but why should the method of carry be indicative of someone personality? :confused: I would bet that most "chest thumpers" show their "thumpin" in lots of ways other than open carrying... especially in places where they can't carry. Aggressive, pushy braggarts are that way with or without carrying guns-right?
I would truly hate to think that people whose posts here that have given me, provided me, with lots of good reading, thoughtful insights and answers to questions I hadn't even thought to ask would judge me so harshly if they saw me open carrying! :(
And sometimes I do-because at that point in time it is the most logical practical thing for me to do. The majority of the time I CCW. But sometimes I OC and also CCW my bug-at the same time! So what does that make me? Here in Tucson if I see someone OC'ing I try to check them out to see WHAT they have-same way I check out a sweet muscle car that I see on the road.:) I do not say to myself "that guy must have a chip on his shoulder". But all said and done I still respect ya'lls opinions and will carry as I need to at the time-but wouldn't it be nice if everyone had the CHOICE- like I do?

Archie
August 23, 2008, 10:24 AM
I would carry either a strong side high ride or cross draw. It would be a quality leather holster and properly fit the belt. It would coordinate with the rest of my clothing like this was something I planned, not an afterthought. One wants to appear (at least) competent, professional and knowledgable.

Open carry has certain postive factors:

1. One needn't worry about 'showing'. No concern over a jacket riding up or bending over wrong.

2. It sends a message to the 'criminal element'. Oddly, when the cravenly predatory see a weapon in public, they do not immediately start thinking how to steal that weapon or how to overpower the carrier. They tend to think, "I'm not starting anything here".

3. Exposure to weapons makes the sheep contingent less nervous over time. Okay, the first week there will be many of the 'good folks who won't carry every under any conditions' who stare, point and perhaps even approach and offer critical statements. However, people adapt rather quickly to new conditions. After the first week or two, most people will tend to ignore openly displayed weapons.

I agree there is no one size fits all solution. However, this is how I see it. I don't think this makes me a hero, just a guy who makes a stand.

rsgraebert
August 23, 2008, 02:55 PM
Let's not confuse our concepts of "being a zealot" and discussing a topic on a message board. Most of these comments from most of these people, myself included, would never be made without someone bringing the topic up first (which, per the OP, someone did).

rsgraebert
August 23, 2008, 03:00 PM
And a separate reply...I am assuming most (not all, but most) of us don't live in gangland central. The Bloods are not after my shiny pistol and I can wear whatever color shirt I wish. The most dangerous neighborhoods I spend time in aren't really all that dangerous. I find it VERY hard to believe that someone looking to commit a crime in my area would get a warm fuzzy about intentionally committing it on or around someone they know to be armed with a pistol. I will absolutely concede that there exist places in this world where, if you must be there, you shouldn't be showing a piece - this isn't one of them. I just don't see a need to hide it from the law abiding people around me.

Nnobby45
August 23, 2008, 05:26 PM
Could be that SOME of those who are strong advocates of DISPLAYING their weapon for all to see register lower on the maturity meter than those who already know they have the right, but choose to remain low profile and not give away a tactical advantage, nor feel the need to make sure everyone knows about their 2d amendment rights.

I'm not saying that there aren't situations where open carry is appropriate, or necessary. I'm only saying that SOME advocates are suspect.

This subject has been beat to death, always sparks a fight amongst ourselves, and anyone who starts such a thread has observed the controversy it creates many times, and has, quite possibly, started the thread for that purpose rather than to engage in normal debate.

shortwave
August 23, 2008, 05:41 PM
The scenario posted earlier of a situation where a person open carrying in a robbery situation being the first target could also be argued that if everyone was open carrying the robber would have alot of targets and probably not commit robbery in first place.Personally I would feel much safer standing at that cash register(in earlier scenario) with ten people open carrying than knowing that I`m the only one concealed carrying. I applaud JesseL for his(her) earlier post that (as I took it) was referring to judging people that o.c and automaticaly putting them in a chest-beating,look at me,I`m a bad ass category with never even meeting them. IMO,those who catagorize people who open carry have not been fortunate enough to live in some parts of the US where o.c. should not only be legal but mandatory or they are narrow minded. The public may not be used to seeing open carry but at one time we were`nt used to seeing mixed couples walking down the street either. Hope some pro-gun people reconsider thier thoughts on judging other gun owners who exercise thier gun rights in a different way than you do.;)

tedwhite
August 23, 2008, 08:43 PM
I have reconsidered.

Stagger Lee
August 23, 2008, 08:47 PM
I have not reconsidered.

tedwhite
August 23, 2008, 09:11 PM
Well, there you have it.

Wildalaska
August 23, 2008, 09:24 PM
This subject has been beat to death, always sparks a fight amongst ourselves, and anyone who starts such a thread has observed the controversy it creates many times, and has, quite possibly, started the thread for that purpose rather than to engage in normal debate.


Thats a big 10-4. The subject needs a one year hiatus :)

WildjustanexcersizeinpontificationAlaska TM

Sigma 40 Blaster
August 23, 2008, 11:34 PM
2 months ago this was a pretty novel concept to me. I started the thread just to see how many of us would, wouldn't, or might OC. I knew it would go bad eventually (they all do I think) but thought this sucker went to sleep.

Unfortunately it looks like it woke up rolling down the same hill it was on.

I would like to thank everyone for their input and feedback. Unless there's anything new to add to this one can we call it time out, overtime, or voluntarily locked???

pax
August 23, 2008, 11:41 PM
Yep, I'd say it's time & past time to put this one to bed.

pax